confronting distressing family values

[Guest guest]

For those who think human needs trump those of animals, you could

explain how eating meat actually does make people go hungry and

exacerbates inequalities between peoples, if anyone in your family is at

all ecologically / physically sophisticated enough to understand why it

inevitably takes many times more land to feed grains and legumes to an

animal to feed someone meat than to feed the grains and legumes to the

person directly. It's simply the Second Law of Thermodynamics... This

also obviates the discussion about humane livestock farms (or

potentially eggs & dairy) because there isn't enough land in the world

to feed 7-10 billion people from such a source as a major component of

their diet. You could explain that it's as impossible as if everyone in

the world drove an SUV running on conventional gasoline without there

being a shortage of fuel and disastrous climate change (which is at

least beginning to be accepted in the U.S. mainstream). You'll have to

come up with a different argument if the world population declines

substantially or if we learn how to grow meat in the lab with minimal

inputs (that would at least mean a lot less animal suffering), but until

then the argument is rock solid.

 

--Zack

 

On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 16:24:27 -0800, " Rachel Follansbee "

<rachlfo said:

> Hi all,

>

> This is my first holiday season with my family since I became a vegan.

> For weeks, I have anticipated the negative reaction I would receive

> from my family, especially my grandparents. This morning, when I

> refused to eat bread because it had honey in it, my grandmother jumped

> on me, initiating the inevitable, turbulent conversation about why I

> am a vegan and what it all means. While I actually enjoy talking about

> this subject under most circumstances, I do not enjoy trying to

> explain myself to someone who adamantly believes I am " crazy " and

> " everything, including animal products, should be eaten in

> moderation. " But I knew that I would not hear the end of it, so I

> attempted to describe the values, practices, and purposes of veganism

> in a way that she could understand. The discussion was going okay

> (even though she did not retract her " crazy " label of vegans) until I

> asked her how she could know about animal suffering and simply accept

> it. Her response astonished and appalled me. It was along the lines of

> this: " There is a hierarchy in this world, and humans are at the top

> somewhere. Human beings are more important than other species. Some

> animal suffering is acceptable because what is most important is that

> humans are fed. We should be concerned with feeding the poor and

> hungry people around the world. " Even though the urge to both scream

> and cry at such blatant speciesism overwhelmed me, I restrained myself

> enough to just point out that grains, vegetables, and numerous non-

> animal products can feed the whole world. She dismissed the comment by

> saying that she did not agree and has never heard that before. At that

> point, when I realized that a fundamental disagreement existed between

> us about humanity, living beings, and our planet, I did not know how

> to continue talking to her. So, we somewhat amicably agreed to

> disagree. I left the room deeply distressed and barely able to contain

> my rage.

>

> I am writing because I do not know how to approach this topic in the

> future. Every time I read an ingredients list and find an animal

> product, I dread having to tell them that I won't eat it because they

> roll their eyes and make me feel like I am majorly inconveniencing

> them. I know that other family members who hold the same beliefs as my

> grandmother will confront me about my choice of foods. How do you

> explain vegansism to someone who tolerates animal suffering and who

> cannot comprehend the connection between human oppression and abuses

> of power (like racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, heterosexism, etc.)

> and speciesism?

>

> Thanks for reading and understanding my extreme exasperation. I hope

> your holidays are healthily and happily vegan! Rachel

_

Zack Subin

PhD Student, UC Berkeley Energy & Resources Group

subin / subin / zack.subin

[Guest guest]

Hi all,This is my first holiday season with my family since I became a vegan. For weeks, I have anticipated the negative reaction I would receive from my family, especially my grandparents. This morning, when I refused to eat bread because it had honey in it, my grandmother jumped on me, initiating the inevitable, turbulent conversation about why I am a vegan and what it all means. While I actually enjoy talking about this subject under most circumstances, I do not enjoy trying to explain myself to someone who adamantly believes I am " crazy " and " everything, including animal products, should be eaten in moderation. " But I knew that I would not hear the end of it, so I attempted to describe the values, practices, and purposes of veganism in a way that she could understand. The discussion was going okay (even though she did not retract her " crazy " label of vegans) until I asked her how she could know about animal suffering and simply accept it. Her response astonished and appalled me. It was along the lines of this: " There is a hierarchy in this world, and humans are at the top somewhere. Human beings are more important than other species. Some animal suffering is acceptable because what is most important is that humans are fed. We should be concerned with feeding the poor and hungry people around the world. " Even though the urge to both scream and cry at such blatant speciesism overwhelmed me, I restrained myself enough to just point out that grains, vegetables, and numerous non-animal products can feed the whole world. She dismissed the comment by saying that she did not agree and has never heard that before. At that point, when I realized that a fundamental disagreement existed between us about humanity, living beings, and our planet, I did not know how to continue talking to her. So, we somewhat amicably agreed to disagree. I left the room deeply distressed and barely able to contain my rage.

I am writing because I do not know how to approach this topic in the future. Every time I read an ingredients list and find an animal product, I dread having to tell them that I won't eat it because they roll their eyes and make me feel like I am majorly inconveniencing them. I know that other family members who hold the same beliefs as my grandmother will confront me about my choice of foods. How do you explain vegansism to someone who tolerates animal suffering and who cannot comprehend the connection between human oppression and abuses of power (like racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, heterosexism, etc.) and speciesism?

Thanks for reading and understanding my extreme exasperation. I hope your holidays are healthily and happily vegan!Rachel

[Guest guest]

Rachel,

You have my sympathy about your non-vegan family and their lack of understanding about your values. Next year, although this is a lot of work, to make the meal less stressful, you might consider cooking several vegan dishes to share. Bringing vegan food would accomplish two goals: 1) you would have cruelty-free food you can eat; and 2) you could expose your family to vegan holiday food and they might like it. Every traditional holiday dish has a vegan equivalent. Bringing vegan food doesn't help with your family's ethical values (or lack thereof), but it does get you over the food hurdle. PETA.org has lots of recipes.

 

Bonnie Knight, San Francisco

 

In a message dated 12/25/2008 4:47:28 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, rachlfo writes:

Hi all,This is my first holiday season with my family since I became a vegan. For weeks, I have anticipated the negative reaction I would receive from my family, especially my grandparents. This morning, when I refused to eat bread because it had honey in it, my grandmother jumped on me, initiating the inevitable, turbulent conversation about why I am a vegan and what it all means. While I actually enjoy talking about this subject under most circumstances, I do not enjoy trying to explain myself to someone who adamantly believes I am "crazy" and "everything, including animal products, should be eaten in moderation." But I knew that I would not hear the end of it, so I attempted to describe the values, practices, and purposes of veganism in a way that she could understand. The discussion was going okay (even though she did not retract her "crazy" label of vegans) until I asked her how she could know about animal suffering and simply accept it. Her response astonished and appalled me. It was along the lines of this: "There is a hierarchy in this world, and humans are at the top somewhere. Human beings are more important than other species. Some animal suffering is acceptable because what is most important is that humans are fed. We should be concerned with feeding the poor and hungry people around the world." Even though the urge to both scream and cry at such blatant speciesism overwhelmed me, I restrained myself enough to just point out that grains, vegetables, and numerous non-animal products can feed the whole world. She dismissed the comment by saying that she did not agree and has never heard that before. At that point, when I realized that a fundamental disagreement existed between us about humanity, living beings, and our planet, I did not know how to continue talking to her. So, we somewhat amicably agreed to disagree. I left the room deeply distressed and barely able to contain my rage.I am writing because I do not know how to approach this topic in the future. Every time I read an ingredients list and find an animal product, I dread having to tell them that I won't eat it because they roll their eyes and make me feel like I am majorly inconveniencing them. I know that other family members who hold the same beliefs as my grandmother will confront me about my choice of foods. How do you explain vegansism to someone who tolerates animal suffering and who cannot comprehend the connection between human oppression and abuses of power (like racism, sexism, ageism, ableism, heterosexism, etc.) and speciesism?Thanks for reading and understanding my extreme exasperation. I hope your holidays are healthily and happily vegan!Rachel

 

One site keeps you connected to all your email: AOL Mail, Gmail, and Mail. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Hello Rachel,

 

Thank you for sharing your story. I'm sorry you had such a difficult

time with your family.

 

In response to comments justifying human supremacy, my standard script

goes as follows:

 

Me: These are the same arguments men have used to justify our

oppression of women and that whites have used to justify their

oppression of people of color.

Them: No, that's completely different.

Me: Why is it different?

Them: They're animals!

Me: How does that make it acceptable?

Them: They can't speak!

Me: They can speak; we just don't understand them. (So would it be

justifiable to kill and eat a human who can't speak?)

Them: No! That's different! Humans can ____ (come up with some other

way human animals and animals differ)

Me: How does that make it okay to do this? / So would it be

justifiable to kill and eat a human who can't ____?

 

I believe it's important that the opening line draw from your personal

life to avoid appropriating somebody else's experience. This can be a

risky conversation, as it backs people into a logical corner and

forces them to face their speciesism. With some people, it works

really well and they do see speciesism for what it is. Other people

react negatively, either due to frustration or embarrassment.

 

One thing that I noticed in your message is that you were called

" crazy. " In my experience, it's very frustrating when I'm trying hard

to communicate honestly and openly and I'm met with roadblocks such as

name calling and other communication tactics that feel unfair. In

these cases, it helps me to stop the conversation, point out the

behavior I object to, and set up boundaries. For example, " Veganism is

very important to me. I am very willing to discuss veganism with you,

but I am not willing to do so if you're going to call me 'crazy.' If

you wish to continue the conversation, I ask you to do so in a

respectful manner. Otherwise, I am not going to continue. " I think

it's important that we protect ourselves by taking ourselves out of

the situation if the other party is going to communicate in an unfair way.

 

It sounds like you are approaching the situation in a healthy way: you

are responding with your truth when asked about veganism, and you are

not compromising your beliefs to placate others. I think if we speak

honestly, kindly, clearly, consistently, firmly and from our personal

experience, we are doing everything we can to effectively communicate

our beliefs. If others are unwilling to listen at that moment, then it

may be best to wait for another time to have that conversation. In the

meantime, having made my best effort, I don't feel like I am

inconveniencing anybody should they choose not to accept my veganism.

 

I know it's always more complicated with family. It can be hard,

especially as they get used to you being vegan. Hopefully, with time,

patience and persistence, they will come to at least accept your

choice and perhaps even start to see those connections between human

oppression and speciesist oppression.

 

Victor

--

Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/

The Vegan Ideal: http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/

[Guest guest]

Hi Rachel!

 

Definitely get yourself a copy of the book "Living Among Meat Eaters"

by Carol Adams asap! It covers situations like this, and will help you

greatly in future gatherings.

 

-Kim

 

 

Rachel Follansbee wrote on 12/25/08 4:24 PM:

[Guest guest]

I second Kim's recommendation. I found the ideas in Living Among Meat

Eaters very helpful, especially those about when NOT to debate the

issues.

 

Karen

[Guest guest]

While I agree that it is often not very fruitful to debate the issues (that is, engage in an intellectual way), I do think it is very important to name and oppose oppressive thinking and behavior when it happens, as Rachel did with her grandmother. I hope the book covers this distinction. It may be uncomfortable, but it is a mark of our privilege that we can choose to not speak about these issues. For the oppressed, it is an inescapable reality.Naming and voicing opposition are different than debate and do not constitute proselytizing. They confront people with their otherwise hidden privilege and breaks our own complicity of silence. This is an important function of being an ally to oppressed groups and as a matter of defense and self-respect if we are in the oppressed group. This can be done factually, respectfully and without a negative judgment of the individual.Just as if sexism were to come up, I would hope that I would name it and voice my objection at that moment, so too I hope that I would do the same with speciesism, despite the personal discomfort that may result.Victor-- Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/The Vegan Ideal: http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/--- In , "Karen" <karen wrote:>> I second Kim's recommendation. I found the ideas in Living Among Meat > Eaters very helpful, especially those about when NOT to debate the > issues.> > Karen>

[Guest guest]

Naming and opposing oppressive thinking and behavior sounds quite admirable, but when family is involved, it gets a bit dicey.My take: Either you voice your opinion and deal with the consequences with your grandmother at the dinner table.

Or,Smile and say no thank you to the bread and not say anything that stirs up too much controversy at the table.Or, You can choose not to surround yourselves around such aggression. Especially if you know this will be the response you will get no matter how you approach it.

If you bang you head against the wall, all you get is a bloody head. I had to come to terms that my family and I wouldn't see eye to eye on core beliefs. And I made the decision to move on. Holidays are celebrated with my closest friends. Extreme yes, but I'm much happier this way.

Good luck and peace,TaraOn Fri, Dec 26, 2008 at 12:00 PM, veganvictor <victor wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

While I agree that it is often not very fruitful to debate the issues (that is, engage in an intellectual way), I do think it is very important to name and oppose oppressive thinking and behavior when it happens, as Rachel did with her grandmother. I hope the book covers this distinction. It may be uncomfortable, but it is a mark of our privilege that we can choose to not speak about these issues. For the oppressed, it is an inescapable reality.

Naming and voicing opposition are different than debate and do not constitute proselytizing. They confront people with their otherwise hidden privilege and breaks our own complicity of silence. This is an important function of being an ally to oppressed groups and as a matter of defense and self-respect if we are in the oppressed group. This can be done factually, respectfully and without a negative judgment of the individual.

Just as if sexism were to come up, I would hope that I would name it and voice my objection at that moment, so too I hope that I would do the same with speciesism, despite the personal discomfort that may result.

Victor-- Veganism as Anti-Oppression: http://loveallbeings.org/The Vegan Ideal: http://theveganideal.blogspot.com/

, " Karen " <karen wrote:>> I second Kim's recommendation. I found the ideas in Living Among Meat

> Eaters very helpful, especially those about when NOT to debate the > issues.> > Karen>

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

 

Rachel, I think you've just experienced one of the main reasons why people resist going vegan, or lapse from being vegan: the food and associated "peer pressure". This was your first vegan Christmas holiday with your family, and while it was upsetting, I think there is one big factor to focus on -- the animals did not die or suffer to produce your foods. I know, that is stating the obvious but it's still an important milestone to be proud of.

 

I don't know if you live with your family or see them on a regular basis, or perhaps you already tried this, but maybe what would help for the next big holiday meal is to have a strategy for your approach to inquiries about your veganism and the foods you eat. By assisting in providing vegan foods that everyone will enjoy (so you won't be in the spotlight for refusing foods, and it will enable others to try more vegan foods) and having some practiced answers to standard/typical questions, perhaps the next family event will be more enjoyable. With that in mind, let me suggest two sites that I've found helpful before

 

 

Jo Stepaniak - Q & A - http://www.vegsource.com/jo/

PETA FAQ - http://www.peta.org/about/faq-veg.asp

 

 

Living Among Meat Eaters - I'd already been vegan several years by time I read this, but I still found it very helpful and actually purchased my own copy to keep. That's one of the books that I now recommend to people, too.

 

For me, being vegan is both a lifestyle that I find meaningful as well as an obligation for public advocacy and outreach. After all, the animals have no voice and rely on humans to hopefully represent their interests. But when I don't feel like being serious, often I'll offer a humorous or short response and then follow-up by providing other information later.

 

 

http://www.generationv.org/top-ten-vegan-quips

 

Cheers,

Tammy

 

 

__

"This is my protest against the conduct of the world. To be a vegetarian is to disagree--to disagree with the course of things today. Starvation, world hunger, cruelty, waste, wars--we must make a statement against these things. Vegetarianism is my statement and I think it's a strong one." -- Isaac Bashevis Singer

 

http://bayareaveg.orghttp://generationv.org