re: responses to my non-fat cookie stuff, rants

[Guest guest]

Hi Mark,

 

I just want to thank you for your long "rant" or whatever you want to call it. I pretty much "lurk" on this list, often looking for posts from you, because you have taught me so much the last couple of years. You've led me to the Mad Cowboy site and to Essy among others.

 

Because of what I've learned from you and others on this list about the dangers of added fat in the diet, I've helped save my husband's life. About 8 months ago his doctor told him he was showing serious signs of heart disease. He had been a SAD eater all his life (and he is now 60). He thought he was healthy because he looks thin and is very active and athletic. Anyway, his doctor wanted to send him to a cardiologist that day. He said, "No." I'm going home to my wife and she will cure this. He went immediately on Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

Ooops ... This is a continuation to note about my husband's health. Anyway, my husband immediately went on Esseltyn's plan from How to Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease and he is following it 100%. He went fat free vegan overnight from a dairy and meat eater. He dropped his cholesterol 80 pts. and his weight by 25 lbs. in 3 months. By six months there was no sign of heart disease. So, this IS a life or death matter for some of us, and you are doing lifesaving work by sharing what you know. Thank you.

 

Mary MontanyeNeed a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

Y'all:

 

I'm under a lot of deadlines so please understand that I quickly skimmed the

responses to my recent post and if I miss anything, I apologize in advance.

Without going into great detail, because it doesn't really matter and it'll

clutter up the list, here's a few quick responses to the posts responding to

mine in general:

 

1) 60 cookies? That recipe was for 24 cookies, and it's the fat percentage (and

fat grams) that matter. Addiction is addiction. You can lose the taste for

added fat if you avoid it for several weeks. Esselstyn saw that many times, as

others have, I've done it myself. Is given up added more fat any more radical

than giving up meat or dairy products? I mean, the severe heart disease in his

patients was REVERSED by going low-fat vegan. Ornish accomplished the same

thing (although not always vegan).

 

2) " Joy " in eating fatty cookies? The BART test (as noted by Essy) points out

that even one high-fat meal decreases the elasticity of your cardiovascular

system, and in later years, is even more a potential problem. I prefer the

" joy " of living longer. I hit Essy hard in that interview about " once in awhile

doesn't matter. " His response and " take no prisoners " attitude inspired me...

he wanted your " vessels " to be as supple as possible. Oh, and I wasn't

denegrating anyone directly. I want people to THINK about what they eat. Two

of those cookies, ballparking it here, was around 1/3 of what Dr. Barnard

recommends for daily " fat grams. " People chose to read/believe what they want,

I post/believe what I want.

 

3) For me, I was stunned at the number of pure fat calories in Earth Balance,

and since there are clearly no-fat alternatives to making tasty cookies, why not

explore them? After all, this is a Fat-Free List, and that I pointed out the

incredibly high-fat content of some recipes posted on another blog shouldn't

cause any ire. Isn't that why we're all here? We are trying to reduce the

amount of added fat in our vegan (well, some are vegetarian) diet? Are we not

trying to live healthier (and presumably, longer)?

 

4) As to the " food police, " I pointed out what I, IMHO, thought was a problem

(albeit, based upon peer-reviewed research by others), and didn't just rant: I

offered some other possibilities or alternatives. I believe that's the

constructive way to point out that there are altogether too many vegetarians and

vegans dying of heart disease that really don't need to. I spoke with a

well-known vegan cookbook author the other day about my post (pre-written to

post later), and she was stunned when I told her about the fat calories in Earth

Balance. She'd never thought about it. Besides, I made my attitude about it

all clear upfront and people had a clear choice whether to read what I wrote or

not. If one is confident in their " cooking " than they shouldn't feel threatened

by me or anyone else that disagrees (unless " attacking the messenger " is back in

vogue).

 

5) As to Ornish: I kept my Ornish books and simply used non-egg substitutes to

still take advantage of his recipes. I decided to, ahem, not throw out the baby

with the bath water.

 

I've got a lot of stuff going on, so if y'all wanna continue debating this, go

ahead, but there's no assurance I can enjoin it all. If you do, and I can, I

will.

 

Bottom line: I firmly believe, and the research supports it, that added fat to

one's diet, be it vegan, vegetarian or not, is ultimately deleterious to your

health, and most likely will be focused on your cardiovascular system. There

are many ways to emotionally rationalize otherwise, but the facts are the facts.

For me, I've done it now for 13 months. It works. IMHO, too many vegans buy

these processed high-fat vegan products and think that because they are

" organic " or " 76% " organic it's a great deal. We've pushed the envelope this

far, but we have to go farther. Going vegan (or to a lesser degree, vegetarian)

isn't enough to ensure a long, healthy, productive life, free of diabetes, heart

disease, and other degenerative problems. Going low-fat vegan has been proven

to do otherwise.

 

That all being said, I do appreciate the feedback and love this list. Wish I

had more time to contribute properly to it.

 

Best regards, Mark

[Guest guest]

Mark Sutton wrote:

> Y'all:

>

 

> 2) " Joy " in eating fatty cookies? The BART test (as noted by Essy)

> points out that even one high-fat meal decreases the elasticity of

> your cardiovascular system, and in later years, is even more a

> potential problem. I prefer the " joy " of living longer.

 

Then don't eat fatty foods. No one's asking you to. Your preferences

are fine, but they're not everyone's, and your obnoxious high-horsing is

more likely to irritate people than convert them.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

I agree Sparrow. Even though we are all free to eat fat or not, this list is a non-fat vegan list. And the owners of the list remind us of this at the beginning of every month. There are other vegan sites where recipes can be shared that include added fat. This list is not one of them.

 

Mary

 

 

In a message dated 4/29/2008 9:25:52 PM Mountain Daylight Time, sparrowrose writes:

to play devil's advocate, this list would lose its value to me ifeveryone stopped caring about fat. Sometimes recipes come through onthis list and they are not low-fat and there I sit, thinking "oh yum!wait . . yum because I can't eat that stuff." and I can feel like thatreading any old recipe list. I like this one to stay different and I'mglad that some people here care just as much about low-fat as I do.

 

Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

I understand this is a fatfree site but I really don't watch everything with a microscope. I lost 20 just by cutting out white flour and refined sugar. I never cut out Earth Balance butter (i'd rather die) or yummy vegan treats. I just think everything in moderation and above all else, Exercise! I eat at least one cookie a day and I don't worry about it. It is total common sense and reading ingredients. It's only my opinion.Mark Sutton <msutton wrote: Y'all:I'm under a lot of deadlines so please understand that I

quickly skimmed the responses to my recent post and if I miss anything, I apologize in advance. Without going into great detail, because it doesn't really matter and it'll clutter up the list, here's a few quick responses to the posts responding to mine in general:1) 60 cookies? That recipe was for 24 cookies, and it's the fat percentage (and fat grams) that matter. Addiction is addiction. You can lose the taste for added fat if you avoid it for several weeks. Esselstyn saw that many times, as others have, I've done it myself. Is given up added more fat any more radical than giving up meat or dairy products? I mean, the severe heart disease in his patients was REVERSED by going low-fat vegan. Ornish accomplished the same thing (although not always vegan).2) "Joy" in eating fatty cookies? The BART test (as noted by Essy) points out that even one high-fat meal decreases the elasticity of your cardiovascular system, and in later years, is even more a potential

problem. I prefer the "joy" of living longer. I hit Essy hard in that interview about "once in awhile doesn't matter." His response and "take no prisoners" attitude inspired me... he wanted your "vessels" to be as supple as possible. Oh, and I wasn't denegrating anyone directly. I want people to THINK about what they eat. Two of those cookies, ballparking it here, was around 1/3 of what Dr. Barnard recommends for daily "fat grams." People chose to read/believe what they want, I post/believe what I want.3) For me, I was stunned at the number of pure fat calories in Earth Balance, and since there are clearly no-fat alternatives to making tasty cookies, why not explore them? After all, this is a Fat-Free List, and that I pointed out the incredibly high-fat content of some recipes posted on another blog shouldn't cause any ire. Isn't that why we're all here? We are trying to reduce the amount of added fat in our vegan (well, some are vegetarian) diet? Are we not trying

to live healthier (and presumably, longer)?4) As to the "food police," I pointed out what I, IMHO, thought was a problem (albeit, based upon peer-reviewed research by others), and didn't just rant: I offered some other possibilities or alternatives. I believe that's the constructive way to point out that there are altogether too many vegetarians and vegans dying of heart disease that really don't need to. I spoke with a well-known vegan cookbook author the other day about my post (pre-written to post later), and she was stunned when I told her about the fat calories in Earth Balance. She'd never thought about it. Besides, I made my attitude about it all clear upfront and people had a clear choice whether to read what I wrote or not. If one is confident in their "cooking" than they shouldn't feel threatened by me or anyone else that disagrees (unless "attacking the messenger" is back in vogue).5) As to Ornish: I kept my Ornish books and simply used non-egg

substitutes to still take advantage of his recipes. I decided to, ahem, not throw out the baby with the bath water.I've got a lot of stuff going on, so if y'all wanna continue debating this, go ahead, but there's no assurance I can enjoin it all. If you do, and I can, I will.Bottom line: I firmly believe, and the research supports it, that added fat to one's diet, be it vegan, vegetarian or not, is ultimately deleterious to your health, and most likely will be focused on your cardiovascular system. There are many ways to emotionally rationalize otherwise, but the facts are the facts. For me, I've done it now for 13 months. It works. IMHO, too many vegans buy these processed high-fat vegan products and think that because they are "organic" or "76%" organic it's a great deal. We've pushed the envelope this far, but we have to go farther. Going vegan (or to a lesser degree, vegetarian) isn't enough to ensure a long, healthy, productive life, free of diabetes,

heart disease, and other degenerative problems. Going low-fat vegan has been proven to do otherwise.That all being said, I do appreciate the feedback and love this list. Wish I had more time to contribute properly to it.Best regards, Mark

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Well, Mark I'm not sure what recipe you are referring to but the ones I sometimes use call for one cup margarine and make 5 - 7 dozen depending how big or small I make them. I have many different recipes for choc chip cookies and all - even the Original Tollhouse recipe, are the same - one cup margarine/butter and makes at least 5 dozen cookies. I, personally see nothing wrong with having these cookies or other fat laden indulgences from time-to-time. I used to be a fat-free zealot (not saying you are, but I was) but saw that the way I was going was definitely not healthy. Now, it's everything in moderation.

 

God's Peace,

Gayle

 

 

-

Mark Sutton

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:41 PM

re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Y'all:I'm under a lot of deadlines so please understand that I quickly skimmed the responses to my recent post and if I miss anything, I apologize in advance. Without going into great detail, because it doesn't really matter and it'll clutter up the list, here's a few quick responses to the posts responding to mine in general:1) 60 cookies? That recipe was for 24 cookies, and it's the fat percentage (and fat grams) that matter. Addiction is addiction. You can lose the taste for added fat if you avoid it for several weeks. Esselstyn saw that many times, as others have, I've done it myself. Is given up added more fat any more radical than giving up meat or dairy products? I mean, the severe heart disease in his patients was REVERSED by going low-fat vegan. Ornish accomplished the same thing (although not always vegan).2) "Joy" in eating fatty cookies? The BART test (as noted by Essy) points out that even one high-fat meal decreases the elasticity of your cardiovascular system, and in later years, is even more a potential problem. I prefer the "joy" of living longer. I hit Essy hard in that interview about "once in awhile doesn't matter." His response and "take no prisoners" attitude inspired me... he wanted your "vessels" to be as supple as possible. Oh, and I wasn't denegrating anyone directly. I want people to THINK about what they eat. Two of those cookies, ballparking it here, was around 1/3 of what Dr. Barnard recommends for daily "fat grams." People chose to read/believe what they want, I post/believe what I want.3) For me, I was stunned at the number of pure fat calories in Earth Balance, and since there are clearly no-fat alternatives to making tasty cookies, why not explore them? After all, this is a Fat-Free List, and that I pointed out the incredibly high-fat content of some recipes posted on another blog shouldn't cause any ire. Isn't that why we're all here? We are trying to reduce the amount of added fat in our vegan (well, some are vegetarian) diet? Are we not trying to live healthier (and presumably, longer)?4) As to the "food police," I pointed out what I, IMHO, thought was a problem (albeit, based upon peer-reviewed research by others), and didn't just rant: I offered some other possibilities or alternatives. I believe that's the constructive way to point out that there are altogether too many vegetarians and vegans dying of heart disease that really don't need to. I spoke with a well-known vegan cookbook author the other day about my post (pre-written to post later), and she was stunned when I told her about the fat calories in Earth Balance. She'd never thought about it. Besides, I made my attitude about it all clear upfront and people had a clear choice whether to read what I wrote or not. If one is confident in their "cooking" than they shouldn't feel threatened by me or anyone else that disagrees (unless "attacking the messenger" is back in vogue).5) As to Ornish: I kept my Ornish books and simply used non-egg substitutes to still take advantage of his recipes. I decided to, ahem, not throw out the baby with the bath water.I've got a lot of stuff going on, so if y'all wanna continue debating this, go ahead, but there's no assurance I can enjoin it all. If you do, and I can, I will.Bottom line: I firmly believe, and the research supports it, that added fat to one's diet, be it vegan, vegetarian or not, is ultimately deleterious to your health, and most likely will be focused on your cardiovascular system. There are many ways to emotionally rationalize otherwise, but the facts are the facts. For me, I've done it now for 13 months. It works. IMHO, too many vegans buy these processed high-fat vegan products and think that because they are "organic" or "76%" organic it's a great deal. We've pushed the envelope this far, but we have to go farther. Going vegan (or to a lesser degree, vegetarian) isn't enough to ensure a long, healthy, productive life, free of diabetes, heart disease, and other degenerative problems. Going low-fat vegan has been proven to do otherwise.That all being said, I do appreciate the feedback and love this list. Wish I had more time to contribute properly to it.Best regards, Mark

[Guest guest]

I understand people's comments here about moderation. Yet at the same time, it sounds like those commenting have not read Dr. Esselstyn's book on Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. It explains clearly why "just this once won't hurt" philosophy is endangering our health. We're all free will agents so we can do as we please. I don't think Mark was trying to heap guilt on anyone or deny individuals their right to self-indulge, only expressing concern that are you aware of what you're doing. Many vegans and vegetarians assume that not eating flesh guarantees superior health. It does not. If our desire is to improve our health then arming ourselves with knowledge is paramount to being successful. Admittedly, with

the subject of Mark's blog including the word "rant," controversy is stirred up from the get-go. Wasn't that the idea, to get people curious about what his rant was so that they'd read on? What you do with the information you acquired is clearly in your ballpark.

 

Martha

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gayle <dilemma5 Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:27:37 PMRe: re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Well, Mark I'm not sure what recipe you are referring to but the ones I sometimes use call for one cup margarine and make 5 - 7 dozen depending how big or small I make them. I have many different recipes for choc chip cookies and all - even the Original Tollhouse recipe, are the same - one cup margarine/butter and makes at least 5 dozen cookies. I, personally see nothing wrong with having these cookies or other fat laden indulgences from time-to-time. I used to be a fat-free zealot (not saying you are, but I was) but saw that the way I was going was definitely not healthy. Now, it's everything in moderation.

 

God's Peace,

Gayle

 

 

-

Mark Sutton

 

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:41 PM

re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Y'all:I'm under a lot of deadlines so please understand that I quickly skimmed the responses to my recent post and if I miss anything, I apologize in advance. Without going into great detail, because it doesn't really matter and it'll clutter up the list, here's a few quick responses to the posts responding to mine in general:1) 60 cookies? That recipe was for 24 cookies, and it's the fat percentage (and fat grams) that matter. Addiction is addiction. You can lose the taste for added fat if you avoid it for several weeks. Esselstyn saw that many times, as others have, I've done it myself. Is given up added more fat any more radical than giving up meat or dairy products? I mean, the severe heart disease in his patients was REVERSED by going low-fat vegan. Ornish accomplished the same thing (although not always vegan).2) "Joy" in eating fatty cookies? The BART test (as noted by Essy) points out that even one high-fat meal

decreases the elasticity of your cardiovascular system, and in later years, is even more a potential problem. I prefer the "joy" of living longer. I hit Essy hard in that interview about "once in awhile doesn't matter." His response and "take no prisoners" attitude inspired me... he wanted your "vessels" to be as supple as possible. Oh, and I wasn't denegrating anyone directly. I want people to THINK about what they eat. Two of those cookies, ballparking it here, was around 1/3 of what Dr. Barnard recommends for daily "fat grams." People chose to read/believe what they want, I post/believe what I want.3) For me, I was stunned at the number of pure fat calories in Earth Balance, and since there are clearly no-fat alternatives to making tasty cookies, why not explore them? After all, this is a Fat-Free List, and that I pointed out the incredibly high-fat content of some recipes posted on another blog shouldn't cause any ire. Isn't that why we're

all here? We are trying to reduce the amount of added fat in our vegan (well, some are vegetarian) diet? Are we not trying to live healthier (and presumably, longer)?4) As to the "food police," I pointed out what I, IMHO, thought was a problem (albeit, based upon peer-reviewed research by others), and didn't just rant: I offered some other possibilities or alternatives. I believe that's the constructive way to point out that there are altogether too many vegetarians and vegans dying of heart disease that really don't need to. I spoke with a well-known vegan cookbook author the other day about my post (pre-written to post later), and she was stunned when I told her about the fat calories in Earth Balance. She'd never thought about it. Besides, I made my attitude about it all clear upfront and people had a clear choice whether to read what I wrote or not. If one is confident in their "cooking" than they shouldn't feel threatened by me or anyone

else that disagrees (unless "attacking the messenger" is back in vogue).5) As to Ornish: I kept my Ornish books and simply used non-egg substitutes to still take advantage of his recipes. I decided to, ahem, not throw out the baby with the bath water.I've got a lot of stuff going on, so if y'all wanna continue debating this, go ahead, but there's no assurance I can enjoin it all. If you do, and I can, I will.Bottom line: I firmly believe, and the research supports it, that added fat to one's diet, be it vegan, vegetarian or not, is ultimately deleterious to your health, and most likely will be focused on your cardiovascular system. There are many ways to emotionally rationalize otherwise, but the facts are the facts. For me, I've done it now for 13 months. It works. IMHO, too many vegans buy these processed high-fat vegan products and think that because they are "organic" or "76%" organic it's a great deal. We've pushed the

envelope this far, but we have to go farther. Going vegan (or to a lesser degree, vegetarian) isn't enough to ensure a long, healthy, productive life, free of diabetes, heart disease, and other degenerative problems. Going low-fat vegan has been proven to do otherwise.That all being said, I do appreciate the feedback and love this list. Wish I had more time to contribute properly to it.Best regards, Mark

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

I have read Esselstyn. That doesn't mean I have to believe everything he wrote. Because a vegan indulges in foods with fat in them from time-to-time does not mean they do not understand what health is. It means that they do not believe the same as someone else who does not believe in indulging from time-to-time in foods with fat. Period. There are plenty of well-respected "professionals" who believe that consuming fish oil is very beneficial for health. Would you argue with them that it isn't? All I'm saying is that just because some of us don't hold to the same beliefs others do about fat in the diet, that doesn't mean the others are right and we are wrong or visa versa. It means that there is pretty much research out there that can support anyone's position on any given subject and we are free to educate ourselves ont eh subject by reading and studying the research and decide which we will embrace. I don't believe anyone is right or wrong. I just think we are all different and let it go at that.

 

God's Peace,

Gayle

 

 

-

Martha

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 11:06 PM

Re: re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

 

 

I understand people's comments here about moderation. Yet at the same time, it sounds like those commenting have not read Dr. Esselstyn's book on Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease. It explains clearly why "just this once won't hurt" philosophy is endangering our health. We're all free will agents so we can do as we please. I don't think Mark was trying to heap guilt on anyone or deny individuals their right to self-indulge, only expressing concern that are you aware of what you're doing. Many vegans and vegetarians assume that not eating flesh guarantees superior health. It does not. If our desire is to improve our health then arming ourselves with knowledge is paramount to being successful. Admittedly, with the subject of Mark's blog including the word "rant," controversy is stirred up from the get-go. Wasn't that the idea, to get people curious about what his rant was so that they'd read on? What you do with the information you acquired is clearly in your ballpark.

 

Martha

 

 

 

 

 

 

Gayle <dilemma5 (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2008 10:27:37 PMRe: re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Well, Mark I'm not sure what recipe you are referring to but the ones I sometimes use call for one cup margarine and make 5 - 7 dozen depending how big or small I make them. I have many different recipes for choc chip cookies and all - even the Original Tollhouse recipe, are the same - one cup margarine/butter and makes at least 5 dozen cookies. I, personally see nothing wrong with having these cookies or other fat laden indulgences from time-to-time. I used to be a fat-free zealot (not saying you are, but I was) but saw that the way I was going was definitely not healthy. Now, it's everything in moderation.

 

God's Peace,

Gayle

 

 

-

Mark Sutton

 

Tuesday, April 29, 2008 7:41 PM

re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Y'all:I'm under a lot of deadlines so please understand that I quickly skimmed the responses to my recent post and if I miss anything, I apologize in advance. Without going into great detail, because it doesn't really matter and it'll clutter up the list, here's a few quick responses to the posts responding to mine in general:1) 60 cookies? That recipe was for 24 cookies, and it's the fat percentage (and fat grams) that matter. Addiction is addiction. You can lose the taste for added fat if you avoid it for several weeks. Esselstyn saw that many times, as others have, I've done it myself. Is given up added more fat any more radical than giving up meat or dairy products? I mean, the severe heart disease in his patients was REVERSED by going low-fat vegan. Ornish accomplished the same thing (although not always vegan).2) "Joy" in eating fatty cookies? The BART test (as noted by Essy) points out that even one high-fat meal decreases the elasticity of your cardiovascular system, and in later years, is even more a potential problem. I prefer the "joy" of living longer. I hit Essy hard in that interview about "once in awhile doesn't matter." His response and "take no prisoners" attitude inspired me... he wanted your "vessels" to be as supple as possible. Oh, and I wasn't denegrating anyone directly. I want people to THINK about what they eat. Two of those cookies, ballparking it here, was around 1/3 of what Dr. Barnard recommends for daily "fat grams." People chose to read/believe what they want, I post/believe what I want.3) For me, I was stunned at the number of pure fat calories in Earth Balance, and since there are clearly no-fat alternatives to making tasty cookies, why not explore them? After all, this is a Fat-Free List, and that I pointed out the incredibly high-fat content of some recipes posted on another blog shouldn't cause any ire. Isn't that why we're all here? We are trying to reduce the amount of added fat in our vegan (well, some are vegetarian) diet? Are we not trying to live healthier (and presumably, longer)?4) As to the "food police," I pointed out what I, IMHO, thought was a problem (albeit, based upon peer-reviewed research by others), and didn't just rant: I offered some other possibilities or alternatives. I believe that's the constructive way to point out that there are altogether too many vegetarians and vegans dying of heart disease that really don't need to. I spoke with a well-known vegan cookbook author the other day about my post (pre-written to post later), and she was stunned when I told her about the fat calories in Earth Balance. She'd never thought about it. Besides, I made my attitude about it all clear upfront and people had a clear choice whether to read what I wrote or not. If one is confident in their "cooking" than they shouldn't feel threatened by me or anyone else that disagrees (unless "attacking the messenger" is back in vogue).5) As to Ornish: I kept my Ornish books and simply used non-egg substitutes to still take advantage of his recipes. I decided to, ahem, not throw out the baby with the bath water.I've got a lot of stuff going on, so if y'all wanna continue debating this, go ahead, but there's no assurance I can enjoin it all. If you do, and I can, I will.Bottom line: I firmly believe, and the research supports it, that added fat to one's diet, be it vegan, vegetarian or not, is ultimately deleterious to your health, and most likely will be focused on your cardiovascular system. There are many ways to emotionally rationalize otherwise, but the facts are the facts. For me, I've done it now for 13 months. It works. IMHO, too many vegans buy these processed high-fat vegan products and think that because they are "organic" or "76%" organic it's a great deal. We've pushed the envelope this far, but we have to go farther. Going vegan (or to a lesser degree, vegetarian) isn't enough to ensure a long, healthy, productive life, free of diabetes, heart disease, and other degenerative problems. Going low-fat vegan has been proven to do otherwise.That all being said, I do appreciate the feedback and love this list. Wish I had more time to contribute properly to it.Best regards, Mark

 

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

On 4/29/08, Serene <serene-lists wrote:

>

> Then don't eat fatty foods. No one's asking you to. Your preferences

> are fine, but they're not everyone's, and your obnoxious high-horsing is

> more likely to irritate people than convert them.

 

to play devil's advocate, this list would lose its value to me if

everyone stopped caring about fat. Sometimes recipes come through on

this list and they are not low-fat and there I sit, thinking " oh yum!

wait . . yum because I can't eat that stuff. " and I can feel like that

reading any old recipe list. I like this one to stay different and I'm

glad that some people here care just as much about low-fat as I do.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

On 4/29/08, karissa blades <benzgirl1957 wrote:

>

> It is total common sense and reading ingredients.

 

Very true. I just would like to see fatty recipes labelled as such so

I can stop reading right away before I start craving things that will

make me more ill if I indulge in them. That's part of what this list

is for, right?

 

I hope I don't come across as the " diet police. " I've even shared a

fatty recipe here but I made sure to say that it was fatty before

people got invested in reading it. That's really all I ask of people

and I don't think it's that much to ask.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Sparrow R Jones wrote:

> On 4/29/08, Serene <serene-lists wrote:

> > Then don't eat fatty foods. No one's asking you to. Your

> > preferences are fine, but they're not everyone's, and your

> > obnoxious high-horsing is more likely to irritate people than

> > convert them.

>

> to play devil's advocate, this list would lose its value to me if

> everyone stopped caring about fat. Sometimes recipes come through on

> this list and they are not low-fat and there I sit, thinking " oh yum!

> wait . . yum because I can't eat that stuff. " and I can feel like

> that reading any old recipe list. I like this one to stay different

> and I'm glad that some people here care just as much about low-fat as

> I do.

 

I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about

reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding

vegans who are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with vegan

fat in them.

 

At any rate, I was irritated about it, but I'm not any more. There are

more important things in life.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

On 4/29/08, Serene <serene-lists wrote:

>

> I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about

> reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding

> vegans who are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with vegan

> fat in them.

 

I guess I didn't read it carefully enough because I didn't see chiding.

 

> At any rate, I was irritated about it, but I'm not any more. There are

> more important things in life.

 

Well that's a good thing! You're right; life is too short to spend

time irritated.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

marylizzy wrote:

> I agree Sparrow. Even though we are all free to eat fat or not, this

> list is a non-fat vegan list. And the owners of the list remind us

> of this at the beginning of every month. There are other vegan sites

> where recipes can be shared that include added fat. This list is not

> one of them.

 

Again, the rant wasn't about this list, nor was it originally published

here.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Please Ladies!!!!

This is just not rigth.We are a fatfree blog .We do not need to argue.....life is too short...

Janie

 

 

----

 

 

Serene

4/29/2008 11:30:54 PM

 

Re: re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Sparrow R Jones wrote:> On 4/29/08, Serene <serene-lists (AT) serenepages (DOT) org> wrote:> > Then don't eat fatty foods. No one's asking you to. Your> > preferences are fine, but they're not everyone's, and your> > obnoxious high-horsing is more likely to irritate people than> > convert them.>> to play devil's advocate, this list would lose its value to me if> everyone stopped caring about fat. Sometimes recipes come through on> this list and they are not low-fat and there I sit, thinking "oh yum!> wait . . yum because I can't eat that stuff." and I can feel like> that reading any old recipe list. I like this one to stay different> and I'm glad that some people here care just as much about low-fat as> I do.I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding vegans who are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with vegan fat in them.At any rate, I was irritated about it, but I'm not any more. There are more important things in life.Serene

 

[Guest guest]

On 4/30/08, JWMann <JWMann wrote:

>

> Please Ladies!!!!

> This is just not rigth.We are a fatfree blog .We do not need to

> argue.....life is too short...

 

We were arguing?

 

I thought we were just discussing differing opinions. And I'm not

trying to be snide or smart by saying that. I just didn't think this

was anywhere near the heat and froth of an argument. (Unless you're

using the academic definition of " argue, " meaning, " to discuss

differing views, " in which case I disagree with you because I would

hate to see this turn into a place where people who don't hold " party

line " views are censored from any discussion.)

 

If it really was an argument and I peeved someone, I apologize. I feel

like I learned some things from the discussion and it was never my

intention to make anyone feel uncomfortable or attacked in any way.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Umm, this is in response to us both saying we weren't going to argue

about any more, so you're a bit late. ;-)

 

Serene

 

JWMann wrote:

> Please Ladies!!!! This is just not rigth.We are a

> fatfree blog .We do not need to argue.....life is too short... Janie

>

>

> /----/

>

> /**/ Serene <serene-lists /*Date:*/

> 4/29/2008 11:30:54 PM /*To:*/

> /*Subject:*/ Re:

> re: responses to my " non-fat cookie " stuff, rants

>

>

> Sparrow R Jones wrote:

> > On 4/29/08, Serene <serene-lists

> > <serene-lists%40serenepages.org>> wrote:

> >> Then don't eat fatty foods. No one's asking you to. Your

> >> preferences are fine, but they're not everyone's, and your

> >> obnoxious high-horsing is more likely to irritate people than

> >> convert them.

> >

> > to play devil's advocate, this list would lose its value to me if

> > everyone stopped caring about fat. Sometimes recipes come through

> > on this list and they are not low-fat and there I sit, thinking " oh

> > yum! wait . . yum because I can't eat that stuff. " and I can feel

> > like that reading any old recipe list. I like this one to stay

> > different and I'm glad that some people here care just as much

> > about low-fat as I do.

>

> I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about

> reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding

> vegans who are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with

> vegan fat in them.

>

> At any rate, I was irritated about it, but I'm not any more. There

> are more important things in life.

>

> Serene

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I just think we are really of topic...Am not being mean , but I really do not have time for a gossip blog.Most time I just delete.

At times there is great info and then we get so far off Fatfree Vegan topics . I am not in charge.Am just surprise someone else has not said anything. Janie

 

 

----

 

 

Serene

4/30/2008 10:13:51 PM

 

Re: re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants

 

 

Umm, this is in response to us both saying we weren't going to argue about any more, so you're a bit late. ;-)SereneJWMann wrote:> Please Ladies!!!! This is just not rigth.We are a> fatfree blog .We do not need to argue.....life is too short... Janie>>> /----/>> /**/ Serene <serene-lists (AT) serenepages (DOT) org> /*Date:*/> 4/29/2008 11:30:54 PM /*To:*/ > /*Subject:*/ Re:> re: responses to my "non-fat cookie" stuff, rants>>> Sparrow R Jones wrote:> > On 4/29/08, Serene <serene-lists (AT) serenepages (DOT) org> > <serene-lists%40serenepages.org>> wrote:> >> Then don't eat fatty foods. No one's asking you to. Your> >> preferences are fine, but they're not everyone's, and your> >> obnoxious high-horsing is more likely to irritate people than> >> convert them.> >> > to play devil's advocate, this list would lose its value to me if> > everyone stopped caring about fat. Sometimes recipes come through> > on this list and they are not low-fat and there I sit, thinking "oh> > yum! wait . . yum because I can't eat that stuff." and I can feel> > like that reading any old recipe list. I like this one to stay> > different and I'm glad that some people here care just as much> > about low-fat as I do.>> I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about> reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding> vegans who are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with> vegan fat in them.>> At any rate, I was irritated about it, but I'm not any more. There> are more important things in life.>> Serene>>>>>