[Long] Responses to the no-fat cookie thread

[Guest guest]

Wow, Sparrow. Way to go! 82 lbs. That's fabulous! I was able to eat anything and not gain weight until I was forty. Because of my genetics and high metabolism I was able to fool myself that I was healthy. My husband was able to do the same thing. How wrong we were! A poor diet ... high fat, processed foods, too much sugar, etc. etc. eventually catches up with most of us. I am so grateful for people like Mark and Susan and this site who are spreading the word about another way. For those who don't need this information, more power to them. But that sure isn't me! I need all the information and support I can get in order to change.

 

 

In a message dated 4/30/2008 5:58:57 PM Mountain Daylight Time, sparrowrose writes:

More power to you, Mark! If it weren't for people like you out therespreading awareness, I might never have realized what was wrong withthe way I was eating. Then I would still be a high-fat vegan, eatingmy way into an early grave and wondering why my "healthy vegan diet"wasn't making a difference.

 

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[Guest guest]

I'm a zealot too, Mark. I have also found that if I spend weeks or months on a fat free vegan diet and then have a high fat meal (which I hate to admit I've done), I feel lousy! I need a couple of days of only fruits and veggies to detox. So now I try to remember this BEFORE I eat the fat, rather than having my body remind me afterwords.

 

Mary

 

 

 

In a message dated 4/30/2008 6:11:07 PM Mountain Daylight Time, janetcoe writes:

3) "I used to be a fat-free zealot (not saying you are, but I was) but saw that the way I was going was definitely not healthy. Now, it's everything in moderation."Oh, I'm a zealot on this. I firmly believe it's the most healthy. The science is in, independently verified by Essy, Ornstein, and Barnard. Moderation has no scientific merit, period.

 

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[Guest guest]

Yes, Erin, it sure takes some creative thinking sometimes doesn't it????

 

 

In a message dated 4/30/2008 6:58:14 PM Mountain Daylight Time, truepatriot writes:

I'm the same way. People ask me how I can skipthe cookie or high fat meal, as if I'm deprivingmyself. Pretty easy when I feel like ass almostimmediately. LOL. When I went vegan, it wasnice to be able to point out it must have dairyor egg in it. And it made avoiding the standardoptions for vegetarians at office parties (i.e.,pizza or stuffed shells under a blanket of cheese)all that much easier. Somehow that makes moresense to folks than it "just" being high in fat.

 

Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car listings at AOL Autos.

[Guest guest]

Well, this has been fun:

 

1) " your obnoxious high-horsing is more likely to irritate people than convert

them... "

 

Someone else responded in a way that probably answers your irritation attitude

better than I could:

 

" Ooops ... This is a continuation to note about my husband's health. Anyway, my

husband immediately went on Esseltyn's plan from How to Prevent and Reverse

Heart Disease and he is following it 100%. He went fat free vegan overnight from

a dairy and meat eater. He dropped his cholesterol 80 pts. and his weight by 25

lbs. in 3 months. By six months there was no sign of heart disease. So, this IS

a life or death matter for some of us, and you are doing lifesaving work by

sharing what you know. Thank you. "

 

Bless you and your husband. You've made the flack I've gotten worth it. Would

that my father could maintain the same diet better.

 

....and:

 

" Admittedly, with the subject of Mark's blog including the word " rant, "

controversy is stirred up from the get-go. Wasn't that the idea, to get people

curious about what his rant was so that they'd read on? What you do with the

information you acquired is clearly in your ballpark. "

 

Thanks so much... I used the word " rant " deliberately to alert people that this

was a biased or possibly emotional opinion and take it accordingly. You

understood this perfectly, and I thank your for your note. I wanted to

acknowledge that I was writing something a bit, well, extreme to some, yet I did

provide some possible alternatives/solutions to what I perceived as a problem:

recipes. Rant and provide recipes, imho, is better than just " rant. "

 

After all, no one has to read my posts to this lists or my blog posts, and

considering the amount of positive e-mail I've received, I think the irritated

are in the minority.

 

 

2) " Mark I'm not sure what recipe you are referring to but the ones I sometimes

use... "

 

Hey, I was was referring to a recipe posted on another vegan blog, and maybe you

missed that distinction in my blog post. I try not to directly reference anyone

on this kind of stuff. That person's post got me thinking, researching, and

then posting. I wanted to discuss the issue, not point fingers. That a

well-known vegan cookbook author was surprised by what I found was a sign of the

extent of the, well, problem.

 

BTW: (giggle), do you know how much pure fat is in a stick of vegan margarine?

 

 

3) " I used to be a fat-free zealot (not saying you are, but I was) but saw that

the way I was going was definitely not healthy. Now, it's everything in

moderation. "

 

Oh, I'm a zealot on this. I firmly believe it's the most healthy. The science

is in, independently verified by Essy, Ornstein, and Barnard. Moderation has

no scientific merit, period. To me, zealously, a little bit of added fat is

like a little bit of added cheese or added cow's milk or added meat. If the

science says added fat is bad for your health, how is that different from

eschewing meat/cheese/dairy in total? One high-fat meal comprises the

elasticity of your circulatory system. Fat. Measured scientifically. One

might emotionally say, 'moderation,' but quantitative measurements indicate that

re-thinking the issue is probably a good idea.

 

Whom do I believe? People I don't know on the Internet, or three respected

veg'n Doctors with years of peer-reviewed science to support their findings

that added fat isn't a good thing, and moderation doesn't cut it?

 

No-brainer. I don't eat meat in moderation, dairy products in moderation, or

added fat in moderation. Y'all do what you want, I'll promote what I think

works.

 

I've read about vegetarians and vegans dying of heart attacks, and people noting

that their being veg'n didn't help them, and my conclusion is that they (the

deceased) weren't aware of the FAT issue. It's not exercise (as Essy's patients

who couldn't exercise showed, and still reversed their heart disease via diet),

it's the ADDED FAT.

 

 

4) " I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about

reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding vegans who

are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with vegan fat in them. "

 

I " chided " no one. I asked the question (on my blog): who would use a recipe

that starts with " add 1280 pure fat calories to a bowl " (stats revised)? I

think if phrased that way, instead of " 1 cup of Earth Balance " (wow, I can see

the butterflies when I write that phrase), might reconsider.

 

 

Anyway, I had some extra time tonight to read responses and respond. Love the

irony that some on a " fat-free vegan list " would express, well, " disdain " over a

blog post of mine about expressing concern over too much fat in some vegan

recipes posted elsewhere.

 

Go figure. We post our recipes, opinions, experiences, and best advice. I've

no problem with this as long as it doesn't get personal. I do think that

debating the validity of the research I've mentioned isn't going to go anywhere

useful. The issue might be one of people accepting it.

 

But then, how much harder is that then making the original decision to go vegan?

That was a tremendous leap of faith. Often without the science to support it.

 

As to " no added fat, " the science supports it.

 

Best to all, Mark (and if you've a response, please do a courtesy and no copy

the whole text of this in your reply, unless it's germane... best for all of us

on the List)

[Guest guest]

On 4/30/08, Mark Sutton <msutton wrote:

>

> I've read about vegetarians and vegans dying of heart attacks,

> and people noting that their being veg'n didn't help them, and

> my conclusion is that they (the deceased) weren't aware of the

> FAT issue. It's not exercise (as Essy's patients who couldn't

> exercise showed, and still reversed their heart disease via diet),

> it's the ADDED FAT.

 

Dr. Barnard found the same thing with respect to diabetes. He required

his test subjects to specifically *not* exercise during studies so

that he could look at diet factors alone and they still lost weight

and lowered their blood glucose levels.

 

I got fat as an omnivore. I stayed fat as a vegetarian. I developed

diabetes as a vegetarian. I stayed fat and diabetic as a vegan. It was

only when I became a low-fat vegan that I started losing the weight

(82 pounds lost as of this morning!) and lowering my blood sugar

(sixty points down on the morning glucose. Thirty more points and I'm

in a normal range!)

 

If I'm rigid, dogmatic or zealous about my food choices, it's only

because I have concrete, visible proof that low-fat vegan eating is

actively saving my life.

 

More power to you, Mark! If it weren't for people like you out there

spreading awareness, I might never have realized what was wrong with

the way I was eating. Then I would still be a high-fat vegan, eating

my way into an early grave and wondering why my " healthy vegan diet "

wasn't making a difference.

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

I would like to support Mark. I did rush to his defense once, a month or two ago, but he appeared so much cleverer than I in advocating for himself (over strong microwave opinions or something else at that time), that now I just delete harsh posts. To me, it feels that he is not treated graciously and lovingly. I realize that there are myriad reasons to be vegan, but compassion is a big one. Please respect and be kind to all people on this list even if that is not your primary.

 

Each of you is so valuable, and very helpful to me. I am honored to be part of this.

Smiles,

Janet

 

 

-

Mark Sutton

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 4:29 PM

[Long] Responses to the "no-fat cookie" thread

 

 

Well, this has been fun:1) " your obnoxious high-horsing is more likely to irritate people than convert them..."Someone else responded in a way that probably answers your irritation attitude better than I could:"Ooops ... This is a continuation to note about my husband's health. Anyway, my husband immediately went on Esseltyn's plan from How to Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease and he is following it 100%. He went fat free vegan overnight from a dairy and meat eater. He dropped his cholesterol 80 pts. and his weight by 25 lbs. in 3 months. By six months there was no sign of heart disease. So, this IS a life or death matter for some of us, and you are doing lifesaving work by sharing what you know. Thank you."Bless you and your husband. You've made the flack I've gotten worth it. Would that my father could maintain the same diet better....and: "Admittedly, with the subject of Mark's blog including the word "rant," controversy is stirred up from the get-go. Wasn't that the idea, to get people curious about what his rant was so that they'd read on? What you do with the information you acquired is clearly in your ballpark."Thanks so much... I used the word "rant" deliberately to alert people that this was a biased or possibly emotional opinion and take it accordingly. You understood this perfectly, and I thank your for your note. I wanted to acknowledge that I was writing something a bit, well, extreme to some, yet I did provide some possible alternatives/solutions to what I perceived as a problem: recipes. Rant and provide recipes, imho, is better than just "rant."After all, no one has to read my posts to this lists or my blog posts, and considering the amount of positive e-mail I've received, I think the irritated are in the minority.2) "Mark I'm not sure what recipe you are referring to but the ones I sometimes use..."Hey, I was was referring to a recipe posted on another vegan blog, and maybe you missed that distinction in my blog post. I try not to directly reference anyone on this kind of stuff. That person's post got me thinking, researching, and then posting. I wanted to discuss the issue, not point fingers. That a well-known vegan cookbook author was surprised by what I found was a sign of the extent of the, well, problem.BTW: (giggle), do you know how much pure fat is in a stick of vegan margarine?3) "I used to be a fat-free zealot (not saying you are, but I was) but saw that the way I was going was definitely not healthy. Now, it's everything in moderation."Oh, I'm a zealot on this. I firmly believe it's the most healthy. The science is in, independently verified by Essy, Ornstein, and Barnard. Moderation has no scientific merit, period. To me, zealously, a little bit of added fat is like a little bit of added cheese or added cow's milk or added meat. If the science says added fat is bad for your health, how is that different from eschewing meat/cheese/dairy in total? One high-fat meal comprises the elasticity of your circulatory system. Fat. Measured scientifically. One might emotionally say, 'moderation,' but quantitative measurements indicate that re-thinking the issue is probably a good idea.Whom do I believe? People I don't know on the Internet, or three respected veg'n Doctors with years of peer-reviewed science to support their findings that added fat isn't a good thing, and moderation doesn't cut it?No-brainer. I don't eat meat in moderation, dairy products in moderation, or added fat in moderation. Y'all do what you want, I'll promote what I think works.I've read about vegetarians and vegans dying of heart attacks, and people noting that their being veg'n didn't help them, and my conclusion is that they (the deceased) weren't aware of the FAT issue. It's not exercise (as Essy's patients who couldn't exercise showed, and still reversed their heart disease via diet), it's the ADDED FAT.4) "I care about it, too, and this place is a perfect place to talk about reducing our added fat to zero. What was being discussed was chiding vegans who are NOT on no-added-fat diets about eating things with vegan fat in them."I "chided" no one. I asked the question (on my blog): who would use a recipe that starts with "add 1280 pure fat calories to a bowl" (stats revised)? I think if phrased that way, instead of "1 cup of Earth Balance" (wow, I can see the butterflies when I write that phrase), might reconsider.Anyway, I had some extra time tonight to read responses and respond. Love the irony that some on a "fat-free vegan list" would express, well, "disdain" over a blog post of mine about expressing concern over too much fat in some vegan recipes posted elsewhere.Go figure. We post our recipes, opinions, experiences, and best advice. I've no problem with this as long as it doesn't get personal. I do think that debating the validity of the research I've mentioned isn't going to go anywhere useful. The issue might be one of people accepting it.But then, how much harder is that then making the original decision to go vegan? That was a tremendous leap of faith. Often without the science to support it.As to "no added fat," the science supports it.Best to all, Mark (and if you've a response, please do a courtesy and no copy the whole text of this in your reply, unless it's germane... best for all of us on the List)

[Guest guest]

MARK IS CORRECT...

[Guest guest]

>I got fat as an omnivore. I stayed fat as a vegetarian. I developed>diabetes as a vegetarian. I stayed fat and diabetic as a vegan. It was>only when I became a low-fat vegan that I started losing the weight>(82 pounds lost as of this morning!) and lowering my blood sugar>(sixty points down on the morning glucose. Thirty more points and I'm>in a normal range!)Congratulations, Sparrow, on the great improvements in your health. ~Martha

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

On 4/30/08, Martha <mnatural22 wrote:

>

> Congratulations, Sparrow, on the great improvements in your health.

 

Thanks, Martha! I couldn't have done it without the help, advice, and

support of so many wonderful people - including you!

 

Sparrow

[Guest guest]

Mary,

 

I'm the same way. People ask me how I can skip

the cookie or high fat meal, as if I'm depriving

myself. Pretty easy when I feel like ass almost

immediately. LOL. When I went vegan, it was

nice to be able to point out it must have dairy

or egg in it. And it made avoiding the standard

options for vegetarians at office parties (i.e.,

pizza or stuffed shells under a blanket of cheese)

all that much easier. Somehow that makes more

sense to folks than it " just " being high in fat.

 

-Erin

http://www.zenpawn.com/vegblog

http://www.vegandonelight.com

 

 

-

marylizzy

 

Wednesday, April 30, 2008 8:45 PM

Re: [Long] Responses to the " no-fat cookie " thread

 

 

I'm a zealot too, Mark. I have also found that if I spend weeks or months

on a fat free vegan diet and then have a high fat meal (which I hate to

admit I've done), I feel lousy! I need a couple of days of only fruits and

veggies to detox. So now I try to remember this BEFORE I eat the fat,

rather than having my body remind me afterwords.

 

Mary

[Guest guest]

HA!! my name is susanna and Iam new to this FF stuff and I work at a health food store out here in NH my boss is a ND nad co workers dont believe in FF boss says I need fat to run smoothly and not dry up like a prune?? HELP!! What do I say to retaleate????Martha <mnatural22 wrote: >I got fat as an omnivore. I stayed fat as a vegetarian. I developed>diabetes as a vegetarian. I stayed fat and diabetic as a vegan. It was>only when I became a low-fat vegan that I started losing the weight>(82 pounds lost as of this morning!) and lowering my blood sugar>(sixty points down on the morning glucose. Thirty more points and I'm>in a normal range!) Congratulations, Sparrow, on the great improvements in your health. ~Martha Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

What I usually point out is that I do eat fat — fat that naturally occurs in healthy plant-based foods. I don’t ADD fat to my foods, and that’s the difference. For those who think you can’t get enough fat or protein from plant foods, I usually ask them how elephants and hippos manage to get enough!

 

Anna

 

 

On 1/5/08 9:00 PM, " susanna belch " <susannabelch wrote:

 

HA!! my name is susanna and Iam new to this FF stuff and I work at a health food store out here in NH my boss is a ND nad co workers dont believe in FF boss says I need fat to run smoothly and not dry up like a prune?? HELP!! What do I say to retaleate????

 

Martha <mnatural22 wrote:

[Guest guest]

susanna belch wrote:

> HA!! my name is

> susanna and Iam new to this FF stuff and I work at a health food

> store out here in NH my boss is a ND nad co workers dont believe in

> FF boss says I need fat to run smoothly and not dry up like a prune??

> HELP!! What do I say to retaleate????

 

You say that you ARE getting some fat, because all whole foods have some

fat -- you're just not ADDING any fat.

 

Serene

[Guest guest]

Hi Susanna

You do need some fats to keep your system going, for the omega fatty

acids and for absorption of vitamins A,D and K. A moderate portion of

whole or ground nuts and seeds , along with the fats naturally occuring

in grains, beans andsome veg such as avocado will provide what you

need. Read MacDougall's books ,and Joel Furhrman, learn your nutrition

and you will be able to stand your ground and inform your customers

better.

Clear skies!

lc carol

 

susanna belch wrote:

 

HA!! my name is susanna and Iam new to this FF stuff and I

work at a health food store out here in NH my boss is a ND nad co

workers dont believe in FF boss says I need fat to run smoothly and not

dry up like a prune?? HELP!! What do I say to retaleate????

 

Martha <mnatural22 wrote:

 

 

 

 

>I

got fat as an omnivore. I stayed fat as a vegetarian. I developed

>diabetes as a vegetarian. I stayed fat and diabetic as a vegan. It

was

>only when I became a low-fat vegan that I started losing the weight

>(82 pounds lost as of this morning!) and lowering my blood sugar

>(sixty points down on the morning glucose. Thirty more points and

I'm

>in a normal range!)

 

 

Congratulations,

Sparrow, on the great improvements in your health.

~Martha

 

 

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

Mobile. Try

it now.

 

 

 

 

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

Mobile.

Try it now.

[Guest guest]

Iam not adding any fat like flax oils or any avacados or nuts anything with a 3 grams fat or above.Serene <serene-lists wrote: susanna belch wrote:> HA!! my name is> susanna and Iam new to this FF stuff and I work at a health food> store out here in NH my boss is a ND nad co workers dont believe in> FF boss says I need fat to run smoothly and not dry up like a prune??> HELP!! What do I say to retaleate????You say that you ARE getting some fat, because all whole foods have

some fat -- you're just not ADDING any fat.Serene

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

I LOVE the comment about the hippos and elaphants fat!!!!Coop <rodstruelove wrote: What I usually point out is that I do eat fat — fat that naturally occurs in healthy plant-based foods. I don’t ADD fat to my foods, and that’s the difference. For those who think you can’t get enough fat or protein from plant foods, I usually ask them how elephants and hippos manage to get enough!AnnaOn 1/5/08 9:00 PM, "susanna belch"

<susannabelch > wrote: HA!! my name is susanna and Iam new to this FF stuff and I work at a health food store out here in NH my boss is a ND nad co workers dont believe in FF boss says I need fat to run smoothly and not dry up like a prune?? HELP!! What do I say to retaleate????Martha <mnatural22 > wrote:

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

[Guest guest]

susanna belch wrote:

> Iam not adding

> any fat like flax oils or any avacados or nuts anything with a 3

> grams fat or above.

 

Right. You don't need them to get you essential fat -- there's plenty of

fat in whole grains, etc.

 

Serene