Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? ~Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 It doesn't. Honey isn't vegan. On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:01 PM, Marilyn <Bkspedit wrote: And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? ~Marilyn---Check out our recipe files at http://www.fatfreevegan.com . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Hi Marilyn Have you heard/read the quote from Alice Walker along the lines of... just as black people are not here for white people to use, and women are not here for men to use, animals exist for their own reasons - not because they're useful to humans. Our society is very much based on making use of animals, so it can be difficult to take a step back from that, I know! Bees are here to do their own thing. While they're doing it, they also pollinate many of the plants we then enjoy eating... Honey is not part of a vegan diet as defined by Donald Watson in 1940-something, because it's an animal product. Having said that, many people call themselves vegan and do eat honey. I don't understand. Bees do get hurt and killed in commercial honey production. And it's just another form of sugar, not some miracle food. Best wishes alice On 06/03/2009, at 10:01 AM, Marilyn wrote: > And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan > concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for > insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted > bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They > aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the > yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know > because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as > I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months > is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? > > ~Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 (Question about honey) Some argue that since honey comes from bees, it is the same as milk that comes from cows. The fact that it comes from an " animal " whether it endangers their life or not nullifies it as vegan. You must decide how you feel on this issue. There are many other natural sweeteners that do not come from a " creature " whether an animal or insect. Agave comes from an acceptable vegan source and is delicious Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 You'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to eat honey or not, there really isn't a " vegan law " -- a lot of vegans won't eat it, many do. Nutritionally it's just sugar. When submitting recipes to the list that include honey I think it's a good idea to note " or vegan equivalent, " but I think most of us know to do that if this is an issue for us. However, bees and other insects do indeed have a very " useful purpose " -- they pollinate plants, including vegetable plants, which are absolutely essential to life on earth. Swatting a bee or two each summer probably doesn't hurt much in the long run, but we literally couldn't survive without bees and other insects. DebbieMarilyn wrote:So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Seems to me, it's closer to cud than milk. -Erin http://www.zenpawn.com/vegblog - snider.timothy Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:13 PM Re: I heard vegan includes honey, is this true? (Question about honey) Some argue that since honey comes from bees, it is the same as milk that comes from cows. The fact that it comes from an " animal " whether it endangers their life or not nullifies it as vegan. You must decide how you feel on this issue. There are many other natural sweeteners that do not come from a " creature " whether an animal or insect. Agave comes from an acceptable vegan source and is delicious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Agave comes from an acceptable vegan source and is delicious I've switched from honey to agave and I love it. You can find it at health food stores, online and I know Trader Joe's carries it now too. Plus, it a plus for diabetics because it doesn't spike your blood sugar levels like sugar and honey do. Debbie "It's the cracked ones who let light into the world." snider.timothy Thu, 5 Mar 2009 1:13 pm Re: I heard vegan includes honey, is this true? (Question about honey) Some argue that since honey comes from bees, it is the same as milk that comes from cows. The fact that it comes from an "animal" whether it endangers their life or not nullifies it as vegan. You must decide how you feel on this issue. There are many other natural sweeteners that do not come from a "creature" whether an animal or insect. Agave comes from an acceptable vegan source and is delicious Sent via BlackBerry by AT & T A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 It's just not a vegan product. I know of someone who decided that he was a " lacto-vegan " because he ate dairy products but no other animal product. I'm sure you can reinvent labels and eat fish as a vegetarian, but the simple fact of the matter is that you can't decide for yourself what vegan is. You either are one, or you're not. On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Debbie <debbie wrote: You'll have to decide for yourself whether you want to eat honey or not, there really isn't a " vegan law " -- a lot of vegans won't eat it, many do. Nutritionally it's just sugar. When submitting recipes to the list that include honey I think it's a good idea to note " or vegan equivalent, " but I think most of us know to do that if this is an issue for us. However, bees and other insects do indeed have a very " useful purpose " -- they pollinate plants, including vegetable plants, which are absolutely essential to life on earth. Swatting a bee or two each summer probably doesn't hurt much in the long run, but we literally couldn't survive without bees and other insects. Debbie Marilyn wrote: So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? -- AIM: A Blue Rose 156 YM: blue_rose_156http://x-bluerose-x.livejournal.com ~Boston_GothicBoston_MysticBoston-Pagans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 On Thu, March 5, 2009 1:34 pm, Blue Rose wrote: > It's just not a vegan product. I know of someone who decided that he was a > " lacto-vegan " because he ate dairy products but no other animal product. > I'm > sure you can reinvent labels and eat fish as a vegetarian, but the simple > fact of the matter is that you can't decide for yourself what vegan is. > You > either are one, or you're not. I'll jump in here (without Susan's permission) and remind folks that debates about veganness are not on topic. Serene -- 42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Inaugural issue March '09! http://42magazine.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Buh. How can this be a vegan list if you can't state what's vegan and what's not? On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Serene <serene-lists wrote: On Thu, March 5, 2009 1:34 pm, Blue Rose wrote:> It's just not a vegan product. I know of someone who decided that he was a> " lacto-vegan " because he ate dairy products but no other animal product. > I'm> sure you can reinvent labels and eat fish as a vegetarian, but the simple> fact of the matter is that you can't decide for yourself what vegan is.> You> either are one, or you're not. I'll jump in here (without Susan's permission) and remind folks thatdebates about veganness are not on topic.Serene--42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Inaugural issue March '09! http://42magazine.com ---Check out our recipe files at http://www.fatfreevegan.com . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 On Thu, March 5, 2009 1:37 pm, Blue Rose wrote: > Buh. I beg your pardon? > How can this be a vegan list if you can't state what's vegan and > what's > not? In the something like 10 years that Susan and I have been on veg lists together (beginning, I think, with Veglist), you'd be surprised how many lists have been torn apart by the honey question. Some people say it's vegan, and some say it's not. This list doesn't permit honey (see http://www.fatfreevegan.com/faqs.shtml ), but neither does it permit debates about it. I don't see why that's difficult to grasp. Serene -- 42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Inaugural issue March '09! http://42magazine.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 > I'll jump in here (without Susan's permission) and remind folks that > debates about veganness are not on topic. > > Serene Thank you, thank you, thank you! I was off Twittering and didn't notice what was going on. To answer the follow-up question, this list is for posting recipes, and while it's okay to get clarification about what's allowed, once the question is answered we need to move on. Susan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 This really is a bit off topic, but I’m not sure insects are animals. And as my husband reminds me, if you worry about killing bees, then why not ants, roaches, flies, etc. He’s got a point. Personally I don’t eat honey because I don’t like it, and reading how bees produce it kinda grossed me out. Anna On 6/3/09 8:08 AM, " Alice Leonard " <alice wrote: Hi Marilyn Have you heard/read the quote from Alice Walker along the lines of... just as black people are not here for white people to use, and women are not here for men to use, animals exist for their own reasons - not because they're useful to humans. Our society is very much based on making use of animals, so it can be difficult to take a step back from that, I know! Bees are here to do their own thing. While they're doing it, they also pollinate many of the plants we then enjoy eating... Honey is not part of a vegan diet as defined by Donald Watson in 1940-something, because it's an animal product. Having said that, many people call themselves vegan and do eat honey. I don't understand. Bees do get hurt and killed in commercial honey production. And it's just another form of sugar, not some miracle food. Best wishes alice On 06/03/2009, at 10:01 AM, Marilyn wrote: And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? ~Marilyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Hi Marilyn, I love bees-love to look at them,love to watch them and love to watch them buzz around. I actually thought of beinga bee keeper :-) Anyway they oops I mean honey is not vegan-my DD calls herself a beegan now because she has some raw honey when she issick Now Ticks?-what are they good for! :-) Em-- In , " Marilyn " <Bkspedit wrote: > > And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? > > ~Marilyn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 ooops I'm sorry-I jumped in and didn't see this post- :-) , " Susan Voisin " <susan wrote: > > > I'll jump in here (without Susan's permission) and remind folks that > > debates about veganness are not on topic. > > > > Serene > > Thank you, thank you, thank you! I was off Twittering and didn't > notice what was going on. > > To answer the follow-up question, this list is for posting recipes, > and while it's okay to get clarification about what's allowed, once > the question is answered we need to move on. > > Susan > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thank you Alice. Well said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 does have a vegan chat. I belong to this chay and they know quite a bit about the vegan lifestyle. Danielle , " Marilyn " <Bkspedit wrote: > > And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? > > ~Marilyn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2009 Report Share Posted March 6, 2009 Thank you all for your opinions! Granted insects help the plants we live on but other than that they seem to be annoying in the rest of life. We screen them from our houses and keep them out our cars, we wash their splattered remains off the windshields and curse them when they eat too much of our gardens or annoy our pets. Yes honey is a wonderful gift we get from them and as soon as my " money tree " starts growing (yeah, I'm holding my breath for that one!) I will start looking into the more expensive alternatives. In the meantime, I have read that that for my particular disease that fat-free vegetarianism is HIGHLY recommended by a couple of doctors! As soon as I find the link to that article I can forward that to the list. But thank you all again! Sincerely, Marilyn , " Marilyn " <Bkspedit wrote: > > And does this apply to this particular list? Maybe the whole vegan concept might include honey, but I have ever so little compasion for insects. Particularly when we swat them away all the time. Granted bees produce honey but thats about their only useful purpose. They aren't nice to pet, not nice to breed, not nice to have around the yard. I'm sorry, if I'm missing a point here, please let me know because I think I'm lost on the honey bee compasion point. As much as I dislike winter, the one and only nice thing about the winter months is the lack of insects. So where does honey fall onto vegan standards? > > ~Marilyn > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2009 Report Share Posted March 8, 2009 > Thank you, thank you, thank you! I was off Twittering and didn't > notice what was going on. And I wasn't around, either. Thanks, Serene, for jumping in. > To answer the follow-up question, this list is for posting recipes, > and while it's okay to get clarification about what's allowed, once > the question is answered we need to move on. Let me just add this - a recipe with honey as an ingredient may slip in on this list now and then because folks like Dr. McDougall *do* use it in their recipes. This is one of the reasons why Dr. McDougall says he doesn't want to label his food plans as being vegan or himself as a vegetarian. Just use your own preferred honey substitute when that happens, like agave nectar or molasses. Sue in NJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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