Guest guest Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 I took this off, but since there has been some replies I am posting an edited version: LOL apparently yer not holding yer tongue...I would like to address this touchy issue in the spirit of lively debate. NO cow was DIRECTLY slaughtered for the cheesecake. Milk is obtained from living cows. At some point you have to give it up. The dairy industry is responsible in my opinion for the fate of the male (born of) dairy cows...they could as easily find some useful purpose for the animals...pulling a cart for example. The point is that the cause and effect must end with a more direct approach. When you start to take the cause and effect to such an extent as vegan logic often does, then I think you are responsible for the death of all the insects that are killed to grow the plants, the fate of the farmer who breaks his back working, uses pesticides to grow plants and contracts diseases, and the farmer who grows organic vegetables who kills more insects than usual, you are then responsible for that. And what about the farmer who grows the vegetables and himself EATS MEAT? Aren't you contributing to his livelihood and thereby his ability to eat meat... It gets a bit control freakish. The simple fact is that when using milk products no animal body HAS to die...it is not the same as slaughtering an animal to eat its flesh. There is a world of difference between eating a dead animal and using a live animal's milk. No animal was slaughtered to provide the milk for that cheesecake--period. A way of thinking is good to an extent and don't get me wrong I was vegan for six years, but I don't think that if you go on and on with this you could even step out of your door because you cosmically become responsible for events that are simply out of your control. The wisest man I ever met once said " There has to be a line drawn somewhere to live in this world. " Also, just think what about the water we drink--ever look in a microscope???? Thousands of lives in each glass...ad naseum. Cause and effect? }{ow far can we go until we start to warp think that perhaps we are the center of everything and our decisions to act are so important that we control the fate of all the creatures in the universe. }{a }{a Don't breathe--the dust mites--ya know! I have seen people take actions against others in the fight over fur-- they justify violence...they commit violence to prevent another from performing violence--it doesn't make sense. The tilt of the logic must lie on the pendulum of direct cause and effect or your just lost in it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2006 Report Share Posted June 23, 2006 In fact, cows have to be milked for their own comfort and health. An unmilked cow is a cow in pain. If possible, simply ensure that the milk does not originate from cows raised on factory farms. Good post. Denise On 6/23/06, cuppa_2u <cuppa_2u wrote: > > I took this off, but since there has been some replies I am posting > an edited version: > LOL apparently yer not holding yer tongue...I would like to address > this touchy issue in the spirit of lively debate. NO cow was > DIRECTLY slaughtered for the cheesecake. Milk is obtained from living > cows. At some point you have to give it up. The dairy industry is > responsible in my opinion for the fate of the male (born of) dairy > cows...they could as easily find some useful purpose for the > animals...pulling a cart for example. > The point is that the cause and effect must end with a more direct > approach. When you start to take the cause and effect to such an > extent as vegan logic often does, then I think you are responsible > for the death of all the insects that are killed to grow the plants, > the fate of the farmer who breaks his back working, uses pesticides > to grow plants and contracts diseases, and the farmer who grows > organic vegetables who kills more insects than usual, you are then > responsible for that. And what about the farmer who grows the > vegetables and himself EATS MEAT? Aren't you contributing to his > livelihood and thereby his ability to eat meat... It gets a bit > control freakish. > > The simple fact is that when using milk products no animal body HAS > to die...it is not the same as slaughtering an animal to eat its > flesh. There is a world of difference between eating a dead animal > and using a live animal's milk. No animal was slaughtered to provide > the milk for that cheesecake--period. > > > A way of thinking is good to an extent and don't get me wrong I was > vegan for six years, but I don't think that if you go on and on with > this you could even step out of your door because you cosmically > become responsible for events that are simply out of your control. > The wisest man I ever met once said " There has to be a line drawn > somewhere to live in this world. " > > Also, just think what about the water we drink--ever look in a > microscope???? Thousands of lives in each glass...ad naseum. > Cause and effect? }{ow far can we go until we start to warp think > that perhaps we are the center of everything and our decisions to act > are so important that we control the fate of all the creatures in the > universe. }{a }{a Don't breathe--the dust mites--ya know! > > I have seen people take actions against others in the fight over fur-- > they justify violence...they commit violence to prevent another from > performing violence--it doesn't make sense. > > The tilt of the logic must lie on the pendulum of direct cause and > effect or your just lost in it... > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 At 06:17 PM 6/23/2006 -0600, you wrote: >In fact, cows have to be milked for their own comfort and health. An >unmilked cow is a cow in pain. I Only if the cow is made pregnant and her baby taken away. Otherwise, she only makes milk for her offspring, just like other mammals. V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 HI- I am new-ish to the group.My name is Sharon and have been a vegetarian for 20+ years now. I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian- so I am not pointing fingers or trying to upset anyone- but I can't let this post from Denise go by without commenting. I agree with the former post- a line has to be drawn somewhere and I am not judging who is better or worse for drawing that line whereever- but I will not let 'information' like this go uncorrected. The FACT is, just like all mammals- if the cows were not repeatedly artifically inseminated and their babies forced to 'eat elsewhere'- that, just like a human, the supply would go down as the demand would go down and the cows would not NEED to be milked. Humans are the only beings to purposefully drink milk from another species.Cow's milk is handy but it is not necessary. All other milk drinking animals are weaned and do not go about ways to get more milk after reaching maturity.. Milk is for BABIES because they cannot consume the 'adult diet' at the level of development they are at. Once the ability to consume the advanced diet becomes viable- they STOP drinking the milk and the mother's milk 'dries up'. ( as a mother myself- i am sure thankful for that little brilliant gift from Mother Nature! lol ) So while it is true that the cows would be in serious pain and unhappy to not be milked- one has to think about why she has milk in the first place if she no longer has a baby suckling her, hence the vegans statements of milk being cruel to animals is definitely true. Killing the animal is not the only unkind thing it goes through- death is actually probably the nicest thing we can do to end their suffering.......it is the " methods " by which they live and die in servitude to humans that is so offensive to so many. Sharon in SA -----------original message------- In fact, cows have to be milked for their own comfort and health. An unmilked cow is a cow in pain. If possible, simply ensure that the milk does not originate from cows raised on factory farms. Good post. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2006 Report Share Posted June 24, 2006 My thoughts exactally.--Thank you Sharon! Tia S (Portland,OR) Compassion, in which all ethics must take root, can only attain its full breadth and depth if it embraces all living creatures and does not limit itself to mankind. Albert Schweitzer -------------- Original message -------------- " Rishari " <Rishari HI- I am new-ish to the group.My name is Sharon and have been a vegetarian for 20+ years now. I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian- so I am not pointing fingers or trying to upset anyone- but I can't let this post from Denise go by without commenting. I agree with the former post- a line has to be drawn somewhere and I am not judging who is better or worse for drawing that line whereever- but I will not let 'information' like this go uncorrected. The FACT is, just like all mammals- if the cows were not repeatedly artifically inseminated and their babies forced to 'eat elsewhere'- that, just like a human, the supply would go down as the demand would go down and the cows would not NEED to be milked. Humans are the only beings to purposefully drink milk from another species.Cow's milk is handy but it is not necessary. All other milk drinking animals are weaned and do not go about ways to get more milk after reaching maturity.. Milk is for BABIES because they cannot consume the 'adult diet' at the level of development they are at. Once the ability to consume the advanced diet becomes viable- they STOP drinking the milk and the mother's milk 'dries up'. ( as a mother myself- i am sure thankful for that little brilliant gift from Mother Nature! lol ) So while it is true that the cows would be in serious pain and unhappy to not be milked- one has to think about why she has milk in the first place if she no longer has a baby suckling her, hence the vegans statements of milk being cruel to animals is definitely true. Killing the animal is not the only unkind thing it goes through- death is actually probably the nicest thing we can do to end their suffering.......it is the " methods " by which they live and die in servitude to humans that is so offensive to so many. Sharon in SA -----------original message------- In fact, cows have to be milked for their own comfort and health. An unmilked cow is a cow in pain. If possible, simply ensure that the milk does not originate from cows raised on factory farms. Good post. Denise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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