Milk...absolutely?

March 13, 2003

It's too bad Pat suffers such an adverse affect from cheese. However, this

brief human interest story does not accurately reflect the bigger fact that

most (L-O) veggies do not have such a painful or upsetting response.

Some cannot handle milk or peanuts or any number of other food items. Those

who can do not need to be discouraged from such food choices because of the

diet agenda of another.

We all know cow's milk is for baby cows, but at the same time, milk and it's

multitude of derived products are also a long accepted, rather substantial

food source for many on the planet including many veggies (except vegans and

a few others).

" Needing " and " wanting " are quite different things. IMO, most choices in

life are not based on need but on want. We do however need nutrition to

remain healthy. How that's acquired is variable in a wide number of ways.

As a peaceful veggie group, I hope we can stay focused on what " brings us

together " rather than what " drives us apart. "

Dave

cheryll [naturalist_44240]

, Sant & Brown wrote:

> ...we were *hungry* and I ate cheese. The result? It follows

> on the comments quoted below. Hello sinuses and post-nasal drip!

> Hello headaches, lethargia, tummy troubles, all the rest of it.

That's great! Good for you, you've figured it out. All I can say is

that nearly all my health problems went away when I gave up dairy. I

don't ache any more! I thought I was getting arthritis.

Milk is species-specific. Cow's milk is for infant cows. People's

milk is for little people. Adults of any species do not NEED milk.

March 13, 2003

Good grief, my friend, I wouldn't want to drive anyone apart! It sounds

painful, anyway.

I was merely saying that it's funny but having given up a certain food

because a) I am a vegetarian anyway and b) I was trying to cut out

animal fat in the way of butter, cream, etc. etc. that I found a sudden

headache-y etc. reaction to a sudden return to dairy. It happens. Of

course if one prefers to eat dairy, by all means go ahead. I just

thought it was common knowledge on this list that I was trying to be

vegan - but hey, maybe that's another list - and maybe that was wrong of

me to say that I'd had an adverse reaction to something I hadn't eaten

in a few months. Sheeeeeeesh.

Actually, you know - I think you know - that I would be the last person

to pick on anyone for their eating of eggs and dairy on a vegetarian

list. I would, however, be sad if I couldn't talk about abstaining from

them on a vegetarian list. No offense was intended. As for the food

value thingie, let's not go there - except to say that you really do

know what the answers are to that. My kindly supporter in my vegan

switch - Cheryll - was undeserving, I think, of such a stern response.

And so, I believe, am I.

Do we need to re-define vegetarianism? I thought it included those

plant-eaters who did and those who didn't eat eggs and dairy. And of

course most L-O people, veggie or carnivore, don't have such a response

to eating cheese - otherwise they wouldn't eat the damned cheese, would

they? ;=)

Lighten up, my friend. I meant no harm. And Cheryll, I believe, was

simply letting me know that it was okay to have discovered a sensitivity

to a certain food. If it had been *soy* that I'd had a reaction to would

you have been upset? Eat all the cheese and dairy you want. God knows I

eat all I want of it ;=) It's reputed to be healthy? Yup, and also no.

But what the hey ;=) It's not seemed to bother me for 62 years of my

life - until now, that is, and that might be something else entirely,

like my worry for little chooks and baby cows and stuff, all in my head

you know. George Bernard Shaw, for whom I have the highest regard, did

just fine on the stuff. (Although, ya know, I do worry about the fact

that he was a teetotaler ;=))

Seriously, I'm on your side. But I won't be if ya picks on me pals, so

there! ;=(

best,

pat

> It's too bad Pat suffers such an adverse affect from cheese. However,

> this

> brief human interest story does not accurately reflect the bigger fact

> that

> most (L-O) veggies do not have such a painful or upsetting response.

>

> Some cannot handle milk or peanuts or any number of other food items.

> Those

> who can do not need to be discouraged from such food choices because of

> the

> diet agenda of another.

>

> We all know cow's milk is for baby cows, but at the same time, milk and

> it's

> multitude of derived products are also a long accepted, rather

> substantial

> food source for many on the planet including many veggies (except vegans

> and

> a few others).

>

> " Needing " and " wanting " are quite different things. IMO, most choices

> in

> life are not based on need but on want. We do however need nutrition to

> remain healthy. How that's acquired is variable in a wide number of

> ways.

>

> As a peaceful veggie group, I hope we can stay focused on what " brings

> us

> together " rather than what " drives us apart. "

>

> Dave

>

--

SANTBROWN

townhounds/

http://www.angelfire.com/art/pendragon/

----------

* " Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living things, man

will not himself find peace. " - Albert Schweitzer

* " The time will come when men such as I will look upon the murder of

animals as they now look upon the murder of men " - Leonardo da Vinci

* " The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not

made for humans any more than black people were made for white, or women

created for men. " - Alice Walker

----------

March 13, 2003

Sant & Brown [santbrown]

>>Good grief, my friend, I wouldn't want to drive

anyone apart! It sounds painful, anyway.<<

Pat, I'm sorry. I only included your email snippet as a reference to what

another member mentioned in a response. No slite of you or your gastric

distress was intended.

>>Of course if one prefers to eat dairy, by all

means go ahead. I just thought it was common

knowledge on this list that I was trying

to be vegan<<

It's not about your " becoming vegan or not " as you will read shortly.

>>...wrong of me to say that I'd had an adverse

reaction to something I hadn't eaten in a

few months. Sheeeeeeesh.<<

My comment had zero to do with your probable allergy to dairy except to

acknowledge that some people suffer like you from certain foods.

>>...I would be the last person to pick on anyone

for their eating of eggs and dairy on a

vegetarian list.<<

You didn't but someone else did!

>>...My kindly supporter in my vegan switch -

Cheryll - was undeserving, I think, of such a

stern response. And so, I believe, am I.<<

My response, be it stern or not, was intended to apply only to the following

comments which I feel degraded other members of the group and their choice

to eat dairy products. This is the kind of " preachiness " I thought we

confronted and overcame a couple of months ago.

>>

>>cheryll [naturalist_44240]

>> Milk is species-specific. Cow's milk is for

>> infant cows. People's milk is for little people.

>> Adults of any species do not NEED milk.

To espouse one level of vegginess to the " exclusion " of another is not the

spirit of what the " Feral is about " as I understand it, and that's exactly

what this snippit does.

>>Do we need to re-define vegetarianism?<<

I hope not. Been there, done that, and I personally like the way it's

defined already.

>>...Cheryll, I believe, was simply letting me

know that it was okay to have discovered a

sensitivity to a certain food.<<

Her paragraph, which I did not include, did that just fine. Her continuing

with " milk is species-specific " and more is what caused the problem for me.

>>If it had been *soy* that I'd had a reaction

to would you have been upset?<<

Depends on what else was said...

>>...I'm on your side. But I won't be if ya

picks on me pals, so there! ;=( <<

Pat, this is about opinions and not about picking on anybody and that's how

communications happen in real life. Hopefully, we can all meet in that

peaceful spirit and face these minor disagreements without " drawing a line

in the sand. "

Oh, BTW, soy milk is my preferred milk drink.

Dave

March 13, 2003

, " daveo " <daveo@m...> wrote:

>

> We all know cow's milk is for baby cows, but at the same time, milk

and it's

> multitude of derived products are also a long accepted, rather

substantial

> food source for many on the planet ..

And... MEAT and it's multitude of derived products are also a long

accepted, rather substantial food source for many on the planet...

> " Needing " and " wanting " are quite different things. IMO, most

choices in

> life are not based on need but on want. We do however need

nutrition to

> remain healthy. How that's acquired is variable in a wide number

of ways.

SO. I guess we should eat meat if we want to? With absolutely no

regard for the destruction of our environment, for the animals whose

meat (and milk) are harvested because of our " wants " ...?

> As a peaceful veggie group, I hope we can stay focused on

what " brings us

> together " rather than what " drives us apart. "

I'm plenty peaceful.

March 13, 2003

cheryll [naturalist_44240]

>>SO. I guess we should eat meat if we want to?<<

That's not my choice, but it is the choice of many

people around the world. I think they have a

right to do that just as you and I can also choose

the diet we " want. "

>>With absolutely no regard for the destruction

of our environment, for the animals whose meat

(and milk) are harvested because of our " wants " ...?<<

Sadly, that's a big reality of life that bothers

me too. However, changing that perception of the

world at large and their food source is not the main

focus of this group.

Dave

March 13, 2003

But it is my goal and focus! *lol*

All meat eaters, prepare to be assimilated!

Resistance is futile! muahahahahahaha!

But seriously, it is my hope that the meat-eaters

who are here are here to learn more about vegetarianism

from those of us who live it currently. I hope they read

some of the benefits of the diet and lifestyle and perhaps

will adopt some of it as they feel comfortable. I hope they

learn most of all that it is good for them, and good for

our planet.

~ PT ~

A man's conscience, like a warning line on the highway,

tells him what he shouldn't do - but it does not keep him

from doing it.

~Frank A. Clark

~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~~~~~>

, " daveo " <daveo@m...>

wrote:

> Sadly, that's a big reality of life that bothers

> me too. However, changing that perception of the

> world at large and their food source is not the main

> focus of this group.

>

> Dave

March 13, 2003

There'll be no disagreement from me on that, and we will best persuade

nonveggies if we communicate personal stories and experiences rather than

hyperbole intended to shock.

Dave

~ P_T ~ [patchouli_troll]

But seriously, it is my hope that the meat-eaters

who are here are here to learn more about vegetarianism

from those of us who live it currently. I hope they read

some of the benefits of the diet and lifestyle and perhaps

will adopt some of it as they feel comfortable. I hope they

learn most of all that it is good for them, and good for

our planet.

March 14, 2003

, " daveo " <daveo@m...> wrote:

I think they have a

> right to do that just as you and I can also choose

> the diet we " want. " ...

Yes, that is of course their right.

However, changing that perception of the

> world at large and their food source is not the main

> focus of this group.

Hm, I dunno... I think awareness is something that should be shared.

After all, we are all residents of this planet. And the dairy and

meat industries certainly don't want anyone to know what goes on

behind closed doors, do they? They have their " Got Milk? " ads, and

their " Milk does a body good " slogan. Or how about " Beef. It's what's

for dinner. " . Shouldn't we try to point out the error in this line

of thinking to those who actually BELIEVE it? The real truth is,

it's all about making MONEY...

As for milk being species-specific, I can assure you Dave that it

most certainly is. It is part of the natural order of things. Each

species produces the exact type of milk that their young needs in

order to develop properly. I would be glad to refer you to some

studies on breast-fed infants vs. formula-fed. That aside, just

think about the logic of it, or shall I say ILLOGIC. Dave, would you

drink horse milk? Elephant milk? How about rat milk? So why cow's

milk? Think about it.

Having previously been a member of LaLeche League for several years,

and a nursing mother, I will also say that I understand what these

cows go thru to produce the milk. It is not easy on the body. And

dairy cows are injected with hormones to make them produce up to

eight times the normal amount of milk. Thus they develop mastitis.

That hurts, Dave. That hurts... And then they give them antibiotics

to clear it up. And the antibiotics end up in your milk, because

whatever is consumed by a nursing mother will end up in her milk.

Then, when the cow's milk is beginning to dry up, they are

artificially inseminated, in order to keep them in a state of

continuous lactation, because a dairy cow that isn't producing any

milk isn't making ANY MONEY.

Ok, nuff said. (Hopping off the soap box now) You may drink your milk

and eat your ice cream, after all it's your right. I will drink my

Vitasoy and eat my tofutti.

March 14, 2003

cheryll [naturalist_44240]

, " daveo " wrote:

> However, changing that perception of the world at

> large and their food source is not the main

> focus of this group.

>>Hm, I dunno... I think awareness is something that

should be shared. After all, we are all residents

of this planet.<<

We don't disagree here except on " the manner " in which we share such info.

>>And the dairy and meat industries certainly don't

want anyone to know what goes on behind closed

doors, do they?<<

These closed door meetings may not have the impact or meaning you expect.

Here's why I say that.

I've not worked in either the dairy or the meat industry, but as a business

consultant for 21 years, I have participated in numerous closed door

meetings when companies determined policy for directing their growth and

other issues. I can tell you from first hand experience that such processes

are very messy, sometimes out of control, and not intended for public

consumption.

What ultimately matters is that consensus is created and the best interest

of the company is addressed. The truth is that some companies are simply

not responsible either to the public, their consumers, their stakeholders,

or their environment. That's the only issue for me. It doesn't take

hyperbole to communicate that--the facts will do just fine.

>>They have their " Got Milk? " ads, and their " Milk does a body good " slogan.

Or how about " Beef. It's what's for dinner. " . Shouldn't we try to point out

the error in this line of thinking to those who actually BELIEVE it? The

real truth is, it's all about making MONEY...<<

There is " no error " in that line of thinking--it's just advertising!

Advertising is a " license to lie " within certain boundaries. IMO, playing

that same game gets us little or nothing for the effort.

Progress is made in the courts or in public opinion. Does PETA make a big

splash in the public opinion arena? Of course, they do! What's the result?

Among many veggies, PETA has a " right on " message. Among most of the

general public, PETA is a left-wing, hippie...well, you know the drill. Are

we served by such a public perception? I think not. Do I support PETA?

Yes, but unfortunately, they do not listen to me or my opinion.

>>As for milk being species-specific, I can assure

you Dave that it most certainly is. It is part of

the natural order of things. Each species produces

the exact type of milk that their young needs in

order to develop properly.<<

I do not dispute your facts, only the manner in which they were used. They

are not clubs to bludgeon those around us who happen to still consume that

particular product.

A significant number of L-O veggies consume dairy as a normal part of their

diet. They do not make the same distinctions that you choose to make. Such

statements discount them and their decision to continue eating the diet they

choose.

The same would be true of honey, butter, eggs, leather, and a number of

other animal related products. To have one faction of non-meat eaters

attacking another is not IMO productive for the group.

>>I would be glad to refer you to some studies on

breast-fed infants vs. formula-fed.<<

My daughter was breast-fed, so I'm aware of the pros and cons, but they are

not the issue.

>>That aside, just think about the logic of it,

or shall I say ILLOGIC. Dave, would you drink

horse milk? Elephant milk? How about rat milk?

So why cow's milk? Think about it.<<

I'm guessing, but I'd suppose that various societies in history have

probably tried all these combinations and found them to be less palatable

than they sought. I'd further surmise that historically, the search for

food probably went into a number of areas which might totally disgust us

today.

To me, it's not about logic or illogic. It's about the choices that people

have made. Cow's milk seems to have been universally chosen for it's

suitability as a food source. It's not my choice 96-98% of the time, but it

is never the less a reasonable choice for many others.

>>...I understand what these cows go thru to

produce the milk...not easy on the body...

injected with hormones to...produce up to eight

times the normal amount of milk...they develop

mastitis. That hurts, Dave...they give them

antibiotics to clear it up...antibiotics end up

in your milk, because whatever is consumed by a

nursing mother will end up in her milk. Then,

when the cow's milk is beginning to dry up, they

are artificially inseminated, in order to keep

them in a state of continuous lactation, because

a dairy cow that isn't producing any milk isn't

making ANY MONEY.<<

If you had presented your argument this way earlier, we would probably not

be exchanging these emails.

The bovine growth hormone is IMO a " crime against nature. " As a L-O veggie,

the introduction of that single hormone did more to convince me of the

health hazards of milk than any other single argument.

Have a great day, Cheryl,

Dave

October 13, 2006

Sorry to be a contrarian, but simply because someone doesn't suffer

immediate ill effects from ingesting dairy doesn't really mean its

harmless (I'm not sure you were implying that, but it seems to be a

widespread assumption).

Unless dairy is completely fat free, it contains saturated fat which

raises cholesterol. The acidic proteins in milk / eggs inhibit

calcium absorption. Not to mention all of the hormones, antibiotics,

etc. that are found in all but truly organic dairy products.

There's plenty of good health-related reasons why everyone would

benefit from eliminating dairy / eggs from their diet. It isn't

nessarily about pushing your " diet agenda " on another... Because

dairy / eggs are found in so many foods it can be frustrating to

vegans; When I have to put something back at the store after seeing a

dairy / egg ingredient, I can't help but think how nice it would be if

these things were less popular.

, " daveo " <daveo wrote:

>

> It's too bad Pat suffers such an adverse affect from cheese.

However, this

> brief human interest story does not accurately reflect the bigger

fact that

> most (L-O) veggies do not have such a painful or upsetting response.

>

> Some cannot handle milk or peanuts or any number of other food

items. Those

> who can do not need to be discouraged from such food choices because

of the

> diet agenda of another.

>

> We all know cow's milk is for baby cows, but at the same time, milk

and it's multitude of derived products are also a long accepted,

rather substantial food source for many on the planet including many

veggies (except vegans and a few others).

>

> " Needing " and " wanting " are quite different things. IMO, most

choices in life are not based on need but on want. We do however need

nutrition to remain healthy. How that's acquired is variable in a

wide number of ways.

>

> As a peaceful veggie group, I hope we can stay focused on what

" brings us together " rather than what " drives us apart. "

>

> Dave

>

October 13, 2006

I've done lots of reading on the subject of dairy and eggs lately, and

apparently they have many of the same harmful effects on the body as meat does.

It's that animal protein. Sucks calcium out of the bones, rots in the system,

and doesn't contain anything valuable that we can't get from plant sources.

While I haven't cut out dairy and eggs completely, we (my family and myself)

have drastically reduced the amount of both in our diets. Hubby says he hates

how the cornbread turns out when I use flax instead of eggs. I'm seriously going

to try egg replacer. Soon... after this carton of stinkin' eggs that JEFF

brought home the other day runs out. He's so picky.

Kadee Sedtal

Dave <dave4sale wrote: Sorry to be a

contrarian, but simply because someone doesn't suffer