A quick hello...=born

November 26, 2006

Hello Everyone-

I'm one of those people who reads the message board- but has never

posted anything! I've been a vegetarian- but I'm a new vegan. In

response to the person who was questioning being a vegetarian,animal

cruelty, leather Docs, cows milk, etc... I have a great book that I

highly recommend! The book is called " The World Peace Diet " by Dr.

Will Tuttle. (Anyone who reads VegNews Magazine may have read his

articles.) You could order this book from Lantern Books

(www.lanternbooks.com) or from Dr. Tuttle (www.willtuttle.com). The

shipping is less expensive if you order from Will Tuttle's website &

you get a CD. Another AMAZING book is " Ishmael " by Daniel Quinn.

Also " Fast Food Nation " by Eric Schlosser. It's been made into a

movie. Unfortuately- the movie only played in my town for 2 weeks-

people just don't want to know where their meat comes from! I also

recommend " The Omnivore's Dilemma " by Michael Pollan.

Does anyone know any other good books to recommend? I'm always

looking for new things to read!

Thanks!!!!

Shayne

November 26, 2006

If you look in the feral site under files you will find many books covering

a number of issues to do with the subject all of which are really

interesting and easy reads.

linda

-

" madshortchick " <shaynestratyner

> Does anyone know any other good books to recommend? I'm always

> looking for new things to read!

>

> Thanks!!!!

> Shayne

>

November 26, 2006

California cows are not happy cows.

MaryAnne Crites <suzyq_26201 wrote: I like cows, too, and

feel sorry for some of the living conditions they must endure...mud, cold, snow,

rain, etc. Wonder if they know how bad some of them have it?

M.A.

born_of_beltane <mysteriousdarkness wrote:

Thankyou to all who spent their time replying and looking up sites for

me!! Cheers!

Btw: about the cow thing, yes i realise cows are as important as any

other life (hence the whole 'trying to be vegetarian thing'), but most

of humanity doesn't, so there's always going to be pet cows. I like

cows, they're adorable...

Thanks again!

Mary Anne

Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

November 26, 2006

Ishmael is my favorite book of all time. I think everyone should read it!!!

madshortchick <shaynestratyner wrote: Hello Everyone-

I'm one of those people who reads the message board- but has never

posted anything! I've been a vegetarian- but I'm a new vegan. In

response to the person who was questioning being a vegetarian,animal

cruelty, leather Docs, cows milk, etc... I have a great book that I

highly recommend! The book is called " The World Peace Diet " by Dr.

Will Tuttle. (Anyone who reads VegNews Magazine may have read his

articles.) You could order this book from Lantern Books

(www.lanternbooks.com) or from Dr. Tuttle (www.willtuttle.com). The

shipping is less expensive if you order from Will Tuttle's website &

you get a CD. Another AMAZING book is " Ishmael " by Daniel Quinn.

Also " Fast Food Nation " by Eric Schlosser. It's been made into a

movie. Unfortuately- the movie only played in my town for 2 weeks-

people just don't want to know where their meat comes from! I also

recommend " The Omnivore's Dilemma " by Michael Pollan.

Does anyone know any other good books to recommend? I'm always

looking for new things to read!

Thanks!!!!

Shayne

November 27, 2006

I am NOT trying to start an argument or anything, but I have to ask a question.

I am VERY uneducated, I haven't read the books mentioned in previous emails...

but how would the world work if people didn't eat meat at all? I agree that

cows (and lots of other animals) are treated cruelly and unfairly. But should

the cows just be allowed to wander? I realize they are over bred for meat and

milk, but if humans didn't eat them, wouldn't the cow population just naturally

be higher than what the land could sustain? Who would take care of all these

happy not-for-meat cows? The city dwelling people certainly couldn't do it, and

I would imagine that the former beef farmers wouldn't put out the expense of

feeding and caring for them if they weren't getting paid to slaughter them.

Again, I am not trying to argue, just understand. If dogs were just allowed

to be, not as pets, but just existing, there would be million of them with no

place to live and no food to eat. To me, this is much more cruel than the way my

sweet little shar pei is living now. Yes, she is a pet, but she has a good

home, vet care, food and a nice bed to sleep in at night.

Jennifer

Danielle Saffell <danielle_saffell wrote:

California cows are not happy cows.

MaryAnne Crites <suzyq_26201 wrote: I like cows, too, and feel sorry

for some of the living conditions they must endure...mud, cold, snow, rain, etc.

Wonder if they know how bad some of them have it?

M.A.

born_of_beltane <mysteriousdarkness wrote:

Thankyou to all who spent their time replying and looking up sites for

me!! Cheers!

Btw: about the cow thing, yes i realise cows are as important as any

other life (hence the whole 'trying to be vegetarian thing'), but most

of humanity doesn't, so there's always going to be pet cows. I like

cows, they're adorable...

Thanks again!

Mary Anne

Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

November 27, 2006

If people didn't eat meat at all then all the animals would live the way they

did before people showed up. They would exist naturally, and their population

would be controlled naturally by their own predators in the wild. Yes, cows

should be allowed to wander just as people do. Here's a good question for you to

think about- who's controlling the population of people? I think the last thing

you should be concerned about is whether the cow population is going to get out

of control- the human population is already beyond what the earth, our natural

resources and governments can sustain. What should we do about that?

I don't know I was thinking maybe we can start BBQ- ing people. That would

definately keep the world in check.

I don't mean to be sassy, your answers come from your own common sense. You

need to think more on a global scale- seriously you should definately read the

book " Ishmael " by Daniel Quinn. I think that will help put the planet and our

role as humans into perspective for you.

Like I said before- you need to think like a vegetarian to be a vegetarian.

Also have you checked out PETA.com yet? I posted that link a while ago. It has

all the info you need. Seriously, take a look, it has explanations of the things

that you are looking to understand.

You also have to ask yourself WHY? why do you want be a vegetarian- is it

because you want to be a healthier person? or because you love animals? or

perhaps it's because by being a vegetarian you will have made a positive impact

on the world. whatever the reason it's usually good to start there. When you

have your motivation then it will be much easier for you to keep going with it.

I hope I have articulated myself in a positive manner. I am trying to help you

because I understand that you, like most of us, have pressures coming to you

from the people around you. They will pester you with questions trying to make

you prove yourself and your decisions.

I think the best advice I can give you especially at this stage in your life

is: You don't owe anyone an explanation. The only answer you need to provide is

" because I want to! " That should get people off your back until you learn all

the things you can.

Jennifer <jenni45962 wrote:

I am NOT trying to start an argument or anything, but I have to ask a

question. I am VERY uneducated, I haven't read the books mentioned in previous

emails... but how would the world work if people didn't eat meat at all? I agree

that cows (and lots of other animals) are treated cruelly and unfairly. But

should the cows just be allowed to wander? I realize they are over bred for meat

and milk, but if humans didn't eat them, wouldn't the cow population just

naturally be higher than what the land could sustain? Who would take care of all

these happy not-for-meat cows? The city dwelling people certainly couldn't do

it, and I would imagine that the former beef farmers wouldn't put out the

expense of feeding and caring for them if they weren't getting paid to slaughter

them.

Again, I am not trying to argue, just understand. If dogs were just allowed to

be, not as pets, but just existing, there would be million of them with no place

to live and no food to eat. To me, this is much more cruel than the way my sweet

little shar pei is living now. Yes, she is a pet, but she has a good home, vet

care, food and a nice bed to sleep in at night.

Jennifer

Danielle Saffell <danielle_saffell wrote:

California cows are not happy cows.

MaryAnne Crites <suzyq_26201 wrote: I like cows, too, and feel sorry

for some of the living conditions they must endure...mud, cold, snow, rain, etc.

Wonder if they know how bad some of them have it?

M.A.

born_of_beltane <mysteriousdarkness wrote:

Thankyou to all who spent their time replying and looking up sites for

me!! Cheers!

Btw: about the cow thing, yes i realise cows are as important as any

other life (hence the whole 'trying to be vegetarian thing'), but most

of humanity doesn't, so there's always going to be pet cows. I like

cows, they're adorable...

Thanks again!

Mary Anne

Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

November 27, 2006

if people didn't eat meat, cows as you know them wouldn't exist. as a

matter of fact, if people didn't have domestic animals, most farm

animals and pets as you know them wouldn't exist. they were basically

genetically bred by people for very specific purposes.

melody

http://www.flawlessfitness.com

http://www.melodysmusic.net

, Jennifer <jenni45962

wrote:

>

> I am NOT trying to start an argument or anything, but I have to ask

a question. I am VERY uneducated, I haven't read the books mentioned

in previous emails... but how would the world work if people didn't

eat meat at all? I agree that cows (and lots of other animals) are

treated cruelly and unfairly. But should the cows just be allowed to

wander? I realize they are over bred for meat and milk, but if humans

didn't eat them, wouldn't the cow population just naturally be higher

than what the land could sustain? Who would take care of all these

happy not-for-meat cows? The city dwelling people certainly couldn't

do it, and I would imagine that the former beef farmers wouldn't put

out the expense of feeding and caring for them if they weren't getting

paid to slaughter them.

> Again, I am not trying to argue, just understand. If dogs were

just allowed to be, not as pets, but just existing, there would be

million of them with no place to live and no food to eat. To me, this

is much more cruel than the way my sweet little shar pei is living

now. Yes, she is a pet, but she has a good home, vet care, food and a

nice bed to sleep in at night.

>

> Jennifer

>

> Danielle Saffell <danielle_saffell wrote:

> California cows are not happy cows.

>

> MaryAnne Crites <suzyq_26201 wrote: I like cows, too, and feel

sorry for some of the living conditions they must endure...mud, cold,

snow, rain, etc. Wonder if they know how bad some of them have it?

>

> M.A.

>

> born_of_beltane <mysteriousdarkness wrote:

> Thankyou to all who spent their time replying and looking up sites for

> me!! Cheers!

>

> Btw: about the cow thing, yes i realise cows are as important as any

> other life (hence the whole 'trying to be vegetarian thing'), but most

> of humanity doesn't, so there's always going to be pet cows. I like

> cows, they're adorable...

>

> Thanks again!

>

> Mary Anne

>

> Access over 1 million songs - Music Unlimited.

>

November 27, 2006

I can sort of see your point, but before people showed up, there was about 6

times more grazing land. I don't think that you are taking into account the

fact that major cities now take up what used to be forest and pastureland where

wild animals were allowed to graze. I don't think a cow would be much happier

wandering the streets of NYC that it is in a small crate waiting to become veal.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that factory farming is cruel, but I think the

concept of all living creatures being allowed to just " be " is a little

unrealistic.

Danielle Saffell <danielle_saffell wrote: If people didn't

eat meat at all then all the animals would live the way they did before people

showed up. They would exist naturally, and their population would be controlled

naturally by their own predators in the wild. Yes, cows should be allowed to

wander just as people do. Here's a good question for you to think about- who's

controlling the population of people? I think the last thing you should be

concerned about is whether the cow population is going to get out of control-

the human population is already beyond what the earth, our natural resources and

governments can sustain. What should we do about that?

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November 27, 2006

I think most people have no clue that cows are not in their original form so

to speak but were bred into what we now think of as " cows. " Which means they

would die off eventually as we know them. The pigs on the table are also

bred...you see the wild version in the wild, but they really have no remote

resemblance to the domesticated version. Although this is an are I certainly

haven't studied at all I think that is applicable to nearly all, if not all,

of the animals that people buy from the grocery store. Turkeys certainly

being one of them. They are incredibly smart in the wild and look very

different.

linda

-

" nadiana01 " <nadiana1

if people didn't eat meat, cows as you know them wouldn't exist. as a

> matter of fact, if people didn't have domestic animals, most farm

> animals and pets as you know them wouldn't exist. they were basically

> genetically bred by people for very specific purposes.

November 27, 2006

I don't think cows would breed as often if wild as they are forced to do in

factory farming, where cows are often bred immediately after freshening.

If true, there would be many fewer cows.

--

Kat_Doyle (@earthlink.net)

November 27, 2006

And take into consideration people who care for their pets properly. Like my

dogs, for example, no wolf is as happy as these girls. They have regular meals

that taste good, if they break a bone or get sick they go to the vet, they are

warm in the winter and cool in the summer, they have companionship and are

loved, etc. Of course there will always be those who chain out their dogs and

use them for fighting and all that.

Either way, pie is good. I'm going to have to find a good pumpkin pie recipe

before Christmas. And now I'm wanting banana cream pie also. And cookies.

Tomorrow is my husband's birthday so we get cake. Wednesday is my birthday, and

we will have cake again. Thursday is my daughter's birthday. Guess what we're

having? You guessed it- cake. Friday we're going to go pay the vet bill. That's

gonna suck.

Jennifer <jenni45962 wrote: I can

sort of see your point, but before people showed up, there was about 6 times

more grazing land. I don't think that you are taking into account the fact that

major cities now take up what used to be forest and pastureland where wild

animals were allowed to graze. I don't think a cow would be much happier

wandering the streets of NYC that it is in a small crate waiting to become veal.

Don't get me wrong, I realize that factory farming is cruel, but I think the

concept of all living creatures being allowed to just " be " is a little

unrealistic.

Danielle Saffell <danielle_saffell wrote: If people didn't

eat meat at all then all the animals would live the way they did before people

showed up. They would exist naturally, and their population would be controlled

naturally by their own predators in the wild. Yes, cows should be allowed to

wander just as people do. Here's a good question for you to think about- who's

controlling the population of people? I think the last thing you should be

concerned about is whether the cow population is going to get out of control-

the human population is already beyond what the earth, our natural resources and

governments can sustain. What should we do about that?

Recent Activity

6

New Members

40

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Visit Your Group

November 27, 2006

Well I mean it is idealistic to think that all beings animals and people alike

could just be free. It would be nice if it could be that way. It's something

many strive for. But you're right our world needs to change before this vision

can become a reality. I think its a long way off, but every little bit we can do

takes us in a different direction than what we are going in now. Our present

direction is cruel and destructive perhaps there's a better way, and being

vegetarian is only the beginning of making a positive impact.

Jennifer <jenni45962 wrote: I can sort of see your point,

but before people showed up, there was about 6 times more grazing land. I don't

think that you are taking into account the fact that major cities now take up

what used to be forest and pastureland where wild animals were allowed to graze.

I don't think a cow would be much happier wandering the streets of NYC that it

is in a small crate waiting to become veal. Don't get me wrong, I realize that

factory farming is cruel, but I think the concept of all living creatures being

allowed to just " be " is a little unrealistic.

Danielle Saffell <danielle_saffell wrote: If people didn't eat meat

at all then all the animals would live the way they did before people showed up.

They would exist naturally, and their population would be controlled naturally

by their own predators in the wild. Yes, cows should be allowed to wander just

as people do. Here's a good question for you to think about- who's controlling

the population of people? I think the last thing you should be concerned about

is whether the cow population is going to get out of control- the human

population is already beyond what the earth, our natural resources and

governments can sustain. What should we do about that?

Recent Activity

6

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November 28, 2006

I believe cows are artificially inseminated much more than actually

bred.

Sam

On Behalf Of Katherine Doyle

Monday, November 27, 2006 6:35 PM

TheFeralVegetarian

Re: Re: A quick hello...=born

I don't think cows would breed as often if wild as they are forced to do

in factory farming, where cows are often bred immediately after

freshening.

If true, there would be many fewer cows.

--

_,_._,___

November 28, 2006

Turkeys are, they're too fat to breed naturally. Probably the same with cows

since they're so much fatter than they should be.

Samantha Lea <saml wrote: I

believe cows are artificially inseminated much more than actually

bred.

Sam

On Behalf Of Katherine Doyle

Monday, November 27, 2006 6:35 PM

TheFeralVegetarian

Re: Re: A quick hello...=born

I don't think cows would breed as often if wild as they are forced to do

in factory farming, where cows are often bred immediately after

freshening.

If true, there would be many fewer cows.

--

_,_._,___

November 28, 2006

I don't think the problem (or main problem) for cows is fat. We (humans)

just want them to breed way more than is natural. They breed naturally

about once a year. Maybe twice. That is not sufficient, especially for

dairy producers. They need to be pregnant almost constantly.

Or at least that is my understanding. I'm not an expert.

Samantha

On Behalf Of Kadee M

Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:41 PM

RE: Re: A quick hello...=born

Turkeys are, they're too fat to breed naturally. Probably the same with

cows since they're so much fatter than they should be.

November 28, 2006

I'm not positive about the cows being artificially inseminated, but it's

definitely the case with turkeys. They're so fat they die at less than 2 years

old from heart attacks. Their huge breasts make mating impossible.

Samantha Lea <saml wrote: I don't

think the problem (or main problem) for cows is fat. We (humans)

just want them to breed way more than is natural. They breed naturally

about once a year. Maybe twice. That is not sufficient, especially for

dairy producers. They need to be pregnant almost constantly.

Or at least that is my understanding. I'm not an expert.

Samantha

On Behalf Of Kadee M

Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:41 PM

RE: Re: A quick hello...=born

Turkeys are, they're too fat to breed naturally. Probably the same with

cows since they're so much fatter than they should be.

November 28, 2006

you're absolutely right Samantha. In order for cows to make milk constantly,

they pretty much need to be pregnant all the time. Female calfs becaome milk

cows, male calfs become veal. And milk cows that have seen better days become

hamburgers.

Samantha Lea <saml wrote: I don't think the problem (or

main problem) for cows is fat. We (humans)

just want them to breed way more than is natural. They breed naturally

about once a year. Maybe twice. That is not sufficient, especially for

dairy producers. They need to be pregnant almost constantly.

Or at least that is my understanding. I'm not an expert.

Samantha

On Behalf Of Kadee M

Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:41 PM

RE: Re: A quick hello...=born

Turkeys are, they're too fat to breed naturally. Probably the same with

cows since they're so much fatter than they should be.

November 29, 2006

yeah, we could be level-5 vegans (simpsons episodes, anyone?). that

character ate nothing that casts a shadow! (so just eat at night!

ahahaha)

no but seriously, i'm not mocking you. when i get all big and grown up

(so young! so young!!!) aand have my own house, its gonna be my own

water tank, my own flower gardens, herbs gardens, and vegies gardens

(loving it!) care for by my water tank and grey water...

and some other stuff (and vego diet)..

, Danielle Saffell

<danielle_saffell wrote:

>

> Well I mean it is idealistic to think that all beings animals and

people alike could just be free. It would be nice if it could be that

way. It's something many strive for. But you're right our world needs

to change before this vision can become a reality. I think its a long

way off, but every little bit we can do takes us in a different

direction than what we are going in now. Our present direction is cruel

and destructive perhaps there's a better way, and being vegetarian is

only the beginning of making a positive impact.

>

November 29, 2006

Kadee,

Sorry I'm a little behind on my email. Happy birthday to all in your family!

Maybe you will be on such a sugar high from all the cake that paying the vet

bill won't hurt so much?

Jenn

Kadee M <abbey_road3012 wrote:

And take into consideration people who care for their pets properly.

Like my dogs, for example, no wolf is as happy as these girls. They have regular

meals that taste good, if they break a bone or get sick they go to the vet, they

are warm in the winter and cool in the summer, they have companionship and are

loved, etc. Of course there will always be those who chain out their dogs and

use them for fighting and all that.

Either way, pie is good. I'm going to have to find a good pumpkin pie recipe

before Christmas. And now I'm wanting banana cream pie also. And cookies.

Tomorrow is my husband's birthday so we get cake. Wednesday is my birthday, and

we will have cake again. Thursday is my daughter's birthday. Guess what we're

having? You guessed it- cake. Friday we're going to go pay the vet bill. That's

gonna suck.

Jennifer <jenni45962 wrote: I can sort of see your point, but before

people showed up, there was about 6 times more grazing land. I don't think that

you are taking into account the fact that major cities now take up what used to

be forest and pastureland where wild animals were allowed to graze. I don't

think a cow would be much happier wandering the streets of NYC that it is in a

small crate waiting to become veal. Don't get me wrong, I realize that factory

farming is cruel, but I think the concept of all living creatures being allowed

to just " be " is a little unrealistic.