Garlic Redux

June 24, 2007

Just sharing my own experience...

The body expends extra energy to get rid of irritants. I include

spices in that category.

That depleted energy has to be replaced.

Action - reaction. Coil - uncoil.

It may not be enough to put you in bed. But it's happening.

On the easy...

The vast majority of people posting here are saying with each post

that it's not easy.

When it gets easy, there aren't so many questions or struggles.

We live in a culture where we are taught that it is supposed to be

quick and easy.

Just take a pill. Read a book, etc.

I get where you're coming from about not creating the story...

However the story is already created. We did not write it. We

inherited it.

It's already here all around us.

In the process of unwriting that one and writing our own it becomes

easy and graceful.

The process of unraveling the mystery involves suffering - until it

doesn't.

..wyn

The Raw Retreat

http://TheRawRetreat.com

o) 888.EAT.RAW4LIFE

f) 877.236.6999

June 25, 2007

Neal,

I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop eating garlic. I hear you,

there is evidence, and more evidence.

A case can be made in anyway you want it. For or Against.

I don't see the logic that just because it's natural it's ok in

moderation.

There are lots of poisonous plants. Should we consider them food

because they don't kill us if eaten in moderation?

Quinine is an anti-bacterial and anti-parasitic agent. Should I add

it to my diet - in moderation - because it has that benefit?

That there are volumes of documents or tests that say garlic is

medically good for me won't change my physical experience with garlic.

My body says it's toxic.

I used to do many legal and illegal drugs. From inside the drug

induced bubble, everything looked and felt fine. At one point I woke

up and chose to explore a life experience without stimulants. For me

those include caffeine, alcohol, drugs of all kinds - pharma and

herbal, and spices. I want to explore what a natural state of

consciousness is like.

And there's always that nagging question - why not clean-up the

environment so that these issues don't exist? So there is no felt

need for garlic to kill the bacteria that are growing in our internal

swamp?

Take this issue to the outer environment... if our water were being

contaminated by bacteria we would be appalled if the prescription was

to keep putting substances in the water to kill of the bacteria. We'd

want to know what was polluting the water in the first place and

remove the source.

This whole conversation is the Bechamp vs. Pasteur issue? Is the

cause of illness the germs? Or is the cause of illness the

environment in which bacteria can grow? Bechamp and friends said that

it couldn't be caused by germs. If it were germs we'd all have

serious illness all the time. Grow a culture from a mouth swab. It

will grow many nasty disease colonies, but if the environment is

healthy, the bacteria don't grow into colonies. They just don't have

enough food. But when the environment becomes a compost heap, then

they go to work to clean it up. It's only at that smelly point that

one would even think of using garlic or antibiotic or...? Why not

keep the yard clean in the first place?

And...

If you are enjoying garlic... and that fits your life and diet

expectation and experience. Wonderful! My wife enjoys her cup of

black tea with honey and soymilk in the morning. I'm no longer

interested in putting those in my body. I don't enjoy what I feel

when I do. And... we can have an intelligent conversation about the

effects of caffein and honey and soymilk. She gets it, and chooses

the pleasure of the cup of tea. I don't need to criticize or

invalidate her experience. It will continue to change as her life

continues to reveal itself to her.

May all beings be happy!

..wyn

The Raw Retreat

http://TheRawRetreat.com

o) 888.EAT.RAW4LIFE

f) 877.236.6999

June 25, 2007

I wanted to add to the dangers of even using spices

for remedies. I have a friend who took tumeric a

couple of months ago to aid in digestion (because of

some health tip he read somewhere). The tumeric

burned his esophagus and was lodged at the base where

the flap going to the stomach stopped it. It caused

erosion throughout his esophagus and he couldn't eat,

and the flap at the base was staying open to where

acids were rising out of his stomach. He went to the

doctor and they performed a scope. His diagnosis is

that he has level 3 erosion throughout his esophagus

(that's the level right before a person is typically

diagnosed with cancer) It damaged the area around the

base so severely that it will not close off properly

and if he lays down at all his acids rise from the

stomach, through the esophagus, and into his lungs at

night. This guy has trouble eating, and can no longer

lay down to sleep. It was all because of a " health

tip " and a spice many people use daily. It was only a

spoonful. I think we are wise to use caution and to

eliminate unneccesary toxins and spices.

~Sarah

--- The Raw Retreat <therawretreat wrote:

> Just sharing my own experience...

>

> The body expends extra energy to get rid of

> irritants. I include

> spices in that category.

> That depleted energy has to be replaced.

> Action - reaction. Coil - uncoil.

>

> It may not be enough to put you in bed. But it's

> happening.

>

> On the easy...

> The vast majority of people posting here are saying

> with each post

> that it's not easy.

> When it gets easy, there aren't so many questions or

> struggles.

>

> We live in a culture where we are taught that it is

> supposed to be

> quick and easy.

> Just take a pill. Read a book, etc.

>

> I get where you're coming from about not creating

> the story...

> However the story is already created. We did not

> write it. We

> inherited it.

> It's already here all around us.

>

> In the process of unwriting that one and writing our

> own it becomes

> easy and graceful.

> The process of unraveling the mystery involves

> suffering - until it

> doesn't.

>

> .wyn

> The Raw Retreat

> http://TheRawRetreat.com

> o) 888.EAT.RAW4LIFE

> f) 877.236.6999

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

______________________________\

____

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June 25, 2007

On Sunday 24 June 2007 17:34, The Raw Retreat wrote:

> Just sharing my own experience...

>

> The body expends extra energy to get rid of irritants. I include

> spices in that category.

> That depleted energy has to be replaced.

> Action - reaction. Coil - uncoil.

>

> It may not be enough to put you in bed. But it's happening.

>

> On the easy...

> The vast majority of people posting here are saying with each post

> that it's not easy.

> When it gets easy, there aren't so many questions or struggles.

>

> We live in a culture where we are taught that it is supposed to be

> quick and easy.

> Just take a pill. Read a book, etc.

>

> I get where you're coming from about not creating the story...

> However the story is already created. We did not write it. We

> inherited it.

> It's already here all around us.

ok, I would say we write our own versions of it. But yes, with the same basic

building blocks inherent in language and culture.

> In the process of unwriting that one and writing our own it becomes

> easy and graceful.

or

In the switch from not writing that one to allowing our own to unfold is grace

and ease. " Here and Now. " Buddha said.

> The process of unraveling the mystery involves suffering - until it

> doesn't.

>

> .wyn

I would qualify the suffering as unnecessary.

thankyou .wyn, personal experience is the closest we can get to grasping truth

in the relative.

despite the apparent differences herein, there is resonance.

neal.

June 25, 2007

Hi .wyn

I think we are in agreement here. I am not trying to convince anyone to eat

garlic and I don't at present eat it myself. The simple point is that we are

all individual, unique, and everything is appropriate when its appropriate.

I attack no one's position, merely suggest a possible alternate view. (not

refuting, just making clear)

I don't see any conflict.

neal.

On Sunday 24 June 2007 23:06, The Raw Retreat wrote:

> Neal,

>

> I'm not trying to convince anyone to stop eating garlic. I hear you,

> there is evidence, and more evidence.

> A case can be made in anyway you want it. For or Against.

>

> I don't see the logic that just because it's natural it's ok in

> moderation.

> There are lots of poisonous plants. Should we consider them food

> because they don't kill us if eaten in moderation?

>

> Quinine is an anti-bacterial and anti-parasitic agent. Should I add

> it to my diet - in moderation - because it has that benefit?

>

> That there are volumes of documents or tests that say garlic is

> medically good for me won't change my physical experience with garlic.

> My body says it's toxic.

>

> I used to do many legal and illegal drugs. From inside the drug

> induced bubble, everything looked and felt fine. At one point I woke

> up and chose to explore a life experience without stimulants. For me

> those include caffeine, alcohol, drugs of all kinds - pharma and

> herbal, and spices. I want to explore what a natural state of

> consciousness is like.

>

> And there's always that nagging question - why not clean-up the

> environment so that these issues don't exist? So there is no felt

> need for garlic to kill the bacteria that are growing in our internal

> swamp?

>

> Take this issue to the outer environment... if our water were being

> contaminated by bacteria we would be appalled if the prescription was

> to keep putting substances in the water to kill of the bacteria. We'd

> want to know what was polluting the water in the first place and

> remove the source.

>

> This whole conversation is the Bechamp vs. Pasteur issue? Is the

> cause of illness the germs? Or is the cause of illness the

> environment in which bacteria can grow? Bechamp and friends said that

> it couldn't be caused by germs. If it were germs we'd all have

> serious illness all the time. Grow a culture from a mouth swab. It

> will grow many nasty disease colonies, but if the environment is

> healthy, the bacteria don't grow into colonies. They just don't have

> enough food. But when the environment becomes a compost heap, then

> they go to work to clean it up. It's only at that smelly point that

> one would even think of using garlic or antibiotic or...? Why not

> keep the yard clean in the first place?

>

> And...

> If you are enjoying garlic... and that fits your life and diet

> expectation and experience. Wonderful! My wife enjoys her cup of

> black tea with honey and soymilk in the morning. I'm no longer

> interested in putting those in my body. I don't enjoy what I feel

> when I do. And... we can have an intelligent conversation about the

> effects of caffein and honey and soymilk. She gets it, and chooses

> the pleasure of the cup of tea. I don't need to criticize or

> invalidate her experience. It will continue to change as her life

> continues to reveal itself to her.

>

> May all beings be happy!

>

> .wyn

June 26, 2007

Hi RFers,

It's important to remember that many raw foodists are constantly

trying to mimic cooked foods within complex recipes (mock salmon).

One thing in common with many raw food recipes and cooked food is that

both are slathered in condiments that disguise/mask the true flavor of

the food. If a person strives to eat ONLY whole foods, then it

behooves one to ask him/herself if each ingredient that goes into a

recipe is, in fact, a whole food that can be eaten by itself as a

meal. It is always a choice, and rather than feeling guilty about

eating a food someone says should be avoided, listen to the body. Do

you feel tired shortly after a meal? Does your heart rate seem to

increase? Do you sweat more? Does your sweat smell distinctly like

something you ate? Can you (or someone else) smell your breath?

These are all signs of the body coping with the latest assault through

elimination and rest.

I think it's interesting that you've brought up " ancient asian types "

as a role model for good health and longevity. While I was in China,

I didn't see anyone " ancient " , but the people there are rapidly

catching up to Americans in their numbers of those with various

dis-eases. Obesity in children is on the rise, for instance. On one

street corner in Nanchang, there were five KFCs. I kid you not. My

guess is they are still eating traditional Chinese spices, too. And,

the Chinese have a very long history of treating disease with

acupuncture and Chinese medicine. That seems to imply that dis-ease

has been present there for some time.

Janet

rawfood , jeannieh h <jeannieh99 wrote:

Caroline, We have to band together to protect our rights to our

ginger!! Why, the ancient asian types lived long and healthy using

ginger in many applications.

Jeannie your time is the most cherished gift of all, tomorrow is

promised to no one.

Caroline G Gomes <cggomes To:

rawfood Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:24:31 AM

RE: [Raw Food] Re: Garlic Redux Ok, I avoid garlic and ginger

because of the lingering after smell but I can not and won't give up

my ginger!! I have to draw the line somewhere LOL!!!

Caroline

rawfood

[rawfood ] On Behalf Of jeannieh h Sent:

Saturday, June 23, 2007 10:41 AM rawfood Subject:

Re: [Raw Food] Re: Garlic Redux Ok, why are we adding ginger and

cayenne to this discussion????

Ok, I've conceeded..........garlic and onions.........but now you want

to add my ginger and cayenne????

ok, I see....next you are going to take away my radishes and my

daikon?????

Oh please tell me it isn't so.

Despondent, Jeannie your time is the most cherished gift of all,

tomorrow is promised to no one.

Elchanan <Elchanan To:

rawfood Saturday, June 23, 2007 1:40:24 AM

RE: [Raw Food] Re: Garlic Redux Hi Erica, reasonable points.

The difference is that 100% of people (except, perhaps, the VERY

sick) respond to garlic by going into overdrive to eliminate it. The

same cannot be said for any fruit or vegetable of which I am aware.

Elchanan _____ rawfood

[rawfood ] On Behalf Of Erica Friday, June

22, 2007 2:29 PM rawfood [Raw Food] Re:

Garlic Redux I fail to see why just because things like garlic, ginger

or cayenne are pungent they should be avoided. It's just ridiculous

to think of garlic as unhealthy-?!

I know lots of people who have strong reactions to fruit and

vegetables. So they fault the food and say it " tears them up " or

" they can't eat it " .

Doesn't mean that's true they shouldn't or that it's unnatural.

June 26, 2007

Neal,

It appears you just reiterated what Elchanan wrote about the body

recoiling from the effects of garlic. Please clarify if this was not

your intention.

Pharmaceuticals will create the same kind of responses, naturally

occurring, or not. A particular symptom may disappear from the use of

medicine, but the body must either store or eliminate the foreign

substance. Oftentimes, other symptoms present themselves, and these

are known as " side-effects. "

The question to be asked is whether a food can be used by the body for

nourishment, or whether it creates enervating responses. Since garlic

is immediately excreted, the proof is in the armpit and the breath!

I think it was Dr. Herbert Shelton that said (correct me if I'm

wrong) " The laws of Nature cannot be broken, they can only be

demonstrated. " So, bypassing the body's natural processes and causing

unnatural responses is really just a play on words. The body has no

unnatural responses to anything. It doesn't matter if that substance

is naturally occurring, or not.

Hope this makes sense,

Janet

rawfood , neal <kneel.pardoe wrote:

On Saturday 23 June 2007 20:43, The Raw Retreat wrote:

I don't think there was any disagreement that garlic kills bacteria.

The question was is it a healthy food?

That it kills bacteria as well as it does should make us suspicious.

Do I want all the bacteria in my body killed off?

We avoid antibiotics because they kill off intestinal bacteria. I

assume garlic does the same.

Antibiotics are made by man! Is taking anti-bacterial to be " kills

all bacteria " a sensible assumption.

Silver is a naturally occurring substance on earth. It is an

excellent anti-bacterial/fungal/viral agent. It has been clearly

shown that silver does not destroy or harm in any way, beneficial

bacteria. Nature is wise!

Garlic forces the body to react in a specific way - like coiling a

spring - and the body is going to have to unreact - uncoil the spring.

I would like to know the basis for that. Everything I have read leads

me to the belief that where naturally occurring substance is fed to

the body, the body responds by treating it with its own natural

processes. The response may be to burst into a rash or vomit, but it

is a natural response because it is caused by the body's own process.

It is pharmaceuticals that bypass the normal processes and force the

body into an unnatural response.

And... can we remember...?

It's not supposed to be easy!

for some, easy for others, impossible for others. I find it best to

wait and see rather than start with the story already told.

neal.

June 26, 2007

On Tuesday 26 June 2007 06:23, Janet FitzGerald wrote:

> Neal,

>

> It appears you just reiterated what Elchanan wrote about the body

> recoiling from the effects of garlic.

I wouldn't know.

It seems you have somehow mixed my words together with .wyn

Have a look at the original posts again.

> Please clarify if this was not

> your intention.

>

> Pharmaceuticals will create the same kind of responses, naturally

> occurring, or not. A particular symptom may disappear from the use of

> medicine, but the body must either store or eliminate the foreign

> substance. Oftentimes, other symptoms present themselves, and these

> are known as " side-effects. "

>

> The question to be asked is whether a food can be used by the body for

> nourishment, or whether it creates enervating responses. Since garlic

> is immediately excreted, the proof is in the armpit and the breath!

Not to me. It proves only that the smell of garlic is found in those places.

>

> I think it was Dr. Herbert Shelton that said (correct me if I'm

> wrong) " The laws of Nature cannot be broken, they can only be

> demonstrated. " So, bypassing the body's natural processes and causing

> unnatural responses is really just a play on words. The body has no

> unnatural responses to anything. It doesn't matter if that substance

> is naturally occurring, or not.

>

> Hope this makes sense,

>

> Janet

Yes. certainly I understand what you are saying. The difference I see is one

of interpretation. Nothing is cast in stone. Today's facts are no more cast

in stone than yesterday's conflicting facts. Everything is relative. Nature

is always throwing up anomalies. Seeing thus everything I do, is done in

mystery. I do not know what the outcome will be until it is witnessed. It is

not blind faith. I do not believe any greater power will make everything

alright. S**t happens. It is called life. I am not afraid of it.

In fact it is wonderful.

neal.

June 26, 2007

Janet,

I find it odd that you never saw any " ancient " asian types. I bet they are

there. I have seen so many documentaries where they show them and how healthy

they are. I doubt that they don't exist.

I agree with you that many raw foodies are trying to mimic cooked foods with

what I see in un-cook books. Alot of effort goes into many of the dishes to make

them look like the real thing. Big disappointment in many cases when your mind

and mouth want to mimic the flavor of the real thing. I think taking it from the

approach that it is not the same would be better to learn to enjoy the actual

new flavors your taste buds experience.

It is a fact that " fast food " restaurants are all over the world. People are so

quick to want to emulate the " Americans " with all the food, flavors and

styles...etc.. There is bound to be unhealthy results of that.

Yes acupunture is an old ancient tradition. I am sure there were disease

processes all over the world. I've often heard about old asian traditional

cures that they swear by.

Jeannie

your time is the most cherished gift of all, tomorrow is promised to no one.

Janet FitzGerald <waxplanet

rawfood

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 12:06:26 AM

[Raw Food] Re: Garlic Redux