Updating our understanding about dogs (WAS: raw for pets)

[Guest guest]

Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as scavengers,

a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and Nature.

 

Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as some--but

not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human settlements. The

idea is that those wolves who felt safer in proximity to humans came in the

closest to these settlements. These wolves experienced the greatest safety

in the presence of humans. Within a very short time ... likely a single

human generation ... their hormonal output changed dramatically, their

genetic encoding for skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc. changed to

match, and they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to this

transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

domesticating them almost from birth.

 

This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev just a few

decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were raised for

their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes that would not

attack their human overseers). This scientist bred selectively for the

tamest foxes in the house, and within a single decade, those foxes had

evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans around, the works.

 

Fascinating stuff!!

 

Best,

Elchanan

_____

 

rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

Jennifer Smith

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM

rawfood

[Raw Food] Re: raw for pets

 

 

Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits, vegetables, grains, etc. These

animals are not herbivores or omnivores. In the wild, they hunt and kill

live prey. Therefore, the only time they ingest greens is through their

prey's stomach contents. The same rule should also be held in regards to

dairy products. Like humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk after

infancy.

 

I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes against some

vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important for the

health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it is VERY

unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed our kids

McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets inappropriate

foods, either

 

Jenn

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

yes it is! Funny how quickly the " ingrained " need to hunt can be

erased...doesnt seem to jibe with millions of years of evolutionary

reinforcement does it? This has happened with the great cats, so

arguing domestic cats doesnt serve to negate its being erasable..most

domestic cats dont hunt..

 

consider how the " need to kill " really isnt....its a construct based

on a need to feed oneself (since no one else can feed them, like now)

and just being taught by a parent... If you keep an animal in

captivity past a certain stage, they lose the ability to hunt and cant

be released..if you pick up a baby bird, the parent will leave it to

die and even ifyou cared for it, it will never be taught how to nest

and feed itself..

 

wolves used to hunt with humans because we went for similar prey. We

evolved together hunting as a team...hence the man/dog connection.

 

think about it...is it possible that the most " ingrained " form of

killing, being so easy to erase, might be evidence that killing

isnt/wasnt the only way?

 

anna

 

On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as scavengers,

> a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and Nature.

>

> Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as some--but

> not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human settlements. The

> idea is that those wolves who felt safer in proximity to humans came in the

> closest to these settlements. These wolves experienced the greatest safety

> in the presence of humans. Within a very short time ... likely a single

> human generation ... their hormonal output changed dramatically, their

> genetic encoding for skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc. changed to

> match, and they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to this

> transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

> domesticating them almost from birth.

>

> This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev just a few

> decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were raised for

> their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes that would not

> attack their human overseers). This scientist bred selectively for the

> tamest foxes in the house, and within a single decade, those foxes had

> evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans around, the works.

>

> Fascinating stuff!!

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

> Jennifer Smith

> Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM

> rawfood

> [Raw Food] Re: raw for pets

>

>

> Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits, vegetables, grains, etc. These

> animals are not herbivores or omnivores. In the wild, they hunt and kill

> live prey. Therefore, the only time they ingest greens is through their

> prey's stomach contents. The same rule should also be held in regards to

> dairy products. Like humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk after

> infancy.

>

> I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes against some

> vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important for the

> health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it is VERY

> unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed our kids

> McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets inappropriate

> foods, either

>

> Jenn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Oh yea, domestic cats are avid hunters. All of my cats have hunted

and killed. From the smallest mouse to good size rabbits and

squirrels and birds.. And yes, they good quality cat food available

at all times.

I watched with my dad when I was a child, our domestic cat bring prey

to her litter of kittens. It was fascinating.

 

Domestic cats that do not hunt, don't have the opportunity to do so.

If you want to witness cats hunting, just spend sometime around the

barn and the barn cats that dwell there.

And no, the barn cats are not always ferel. Many barn cats are pets.

 

It is a myth that bird will not take care of their young if you

handle them.

I know, I have done it.

 

Dogs still hunt too, when given the opportunity or out of necessaty.

Not all dogs are interested in it. But believe me. They hunt and

kill and feed. Just like their wild cousins.

Every dog that I have ever had, (and that would be several) could

easily hunt and feed themselves without a human.

The only exception would be the Basset Hound. Who had the knowledge,

intelligence and desire to hunt, but physically she was a freak of

nature and not built for it.

But she did consume the prey that the cat brought in or the other

dogs. Something else that is interesting. They still lived as a

pack and would sometimes would share the kill. Just as the wild

canines do. But since actually getting to kill something was rather

rare, it was often totaly consumed by the alpha in the pack and not

much left for the others.

 

Belinda

 

 

 

>

> yes it is! Funny how quickly the " ingrained " need to hunt can be

> erased...doesnt seem to jibe with millions of years of evolutionary

> reinforcement does it? This has happened with the great cats, so

> arguing domestic cats doesnt serve to negate its being

erasable..most

> domestic cats dont hunt..

>

> consider how the " need to kill " really isnt....its a construct based

> on a need to feed oneself (since no one else can feed them, like

now)

> and just being taught by a parent... If you keep an animal in

> captivity past a certain stage, they lose the ability to hunt and

cant

> be released..if you pick up a baby bird, the parent will leave it to

> die and even ifyou cared for it, it will never be taught how to nest

> and feed itself..

>

> wolves used to hunt with humans because we went for similar prey. We

> evolved together hunting as a team...hence the man/dog connection.

>

> think about it...is it possible that the most " ingrained " form of

> killing, being so easy to erase, might be evidence that killing

> isnt/wasnt the only way?

>

> anna

>

> On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> > Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as

scavengers,

> > a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and Nature.

> >

> > Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as

some--but

> > not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human

settlements. The

> > idea is that those wolves who felt safer in proximity to humans

came in the

> > closest to these settlements. These wolves experienced the

greatest safety

> > in the presence of humans. Within a very short time ... likely a

single

> > human generation ... their hormonal output changed dramatically,

their

> > genetic encoding for skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc.

changed to

> > match, and they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to

this

> > transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

> > domesticating them almost from birth.

> >

> > This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev

just a few

> > decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were

raised for

> > their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes that

would not

> > attack their human overseers). This scientist bred selectively

for the

> > tamest foxes in the house, and within a single decade, those

foxes had

> > evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans around, the works.

> >

> > Fascinating stuff!!

> >

> > Best,

> > Elchanan

> > _____

> >

> > rawfood [rawfood ] On

Behalf Of

> > Jennifer Smith

> > Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM

> > rawfood

> > [Raw Food] Re: raw for pets

> >

> >

> > Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

These

> > animals are not herbivores or omnivores. In the wild, they hunt

and kill

> > live prey. Therefore, the only time they ingest greens is through

their

> > prey's stomach contents. The same rule should also be held in

regards to

> > dairy products. Like humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk

after

> > infancy.

> >

> > I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes

against some

> > vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important

for the

> > health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it is

VERY

> > unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed our

kids

> > McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets

inappropriate

> > foods, either

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

On Jun 27, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Anna Bishop wrote:

 

> yes it is! Funny how quickly the " ingrained " need to hunt can be

> erased...doesnt seem to jibe with millions of years of evolutionary

> reinforcement does it? This has happened with the great cats, so

> arguing domestic cats doesnt serve to negate its being erasable..most

> domestic cats dont hunt..

>

I have never met a domesticated cat that did not hunt something

(mice, bugs, and such). My cats started hunting at one year old

(having been raw feed since 5 weeks old) as soon as I began letting

them have access to the backyard...I know I never taught them to hunt!

 

> consider how the " need to kill " really isnt....its a construct based

> on a need to feed oneself (since no one else can feed them, like now)

> and just being taught by a parent... If you keep an animal in

> captivity past a certain stage, they lose the ability to hunt and cant

> be released..

 

That's not entirely true...it's not that they " lost " the ability,

it's that us humans tamed the creature making it more vulnerable in

the wild. They CAN hunt, but have no conception that what they caught

is food. Also, they tend to become " outcasts " when released to the

wild and are not usually allowed to join a pack/pride. This usually

is what leads to their death. They may be run out of a territory or

straight out killed by a rival.

 

> if you pick up a baby bird, the parent will leave it to

> die and even ifyou cared for it, it will never be taught how to nest

> and feed itself..

>

That's just an old wives tale. Not true...

 

 

> wolves used to hunt with humans because we went for similar prey. We

> evolved together hunting as a team...hence the man/dog connection.

>

> think about it...is it possible that the most " ingrained " form of

> killing, being so easy to erase, might be evidence that killing

> isnt/wasnt the only way?

 

If a " domesticated " kitten is put in the " wild " and it is taken in by

an elder animal, it'll learn to hunt (for food) with no problems..

 

 

Kristi

[Guest guest]

Jenn,

How can it be unhealthy for them if their bloodwork comes back excellent and

the dog is, in fact, healthy? This is true of many vegan dogs. It boggles my

mind that people get so much upset about dogs who are fed an organic raw vegan

diet (and are left to get whatever else they need outside), but people don't bat

an eye at what is in the canned/dry conventional dog food that 99% of the dogs

in this country eat. Now THAT is unnatural, deadly, and unfit for consumption by

any species, but nobody would ever call that abuse. It's all conditioning. Dogs

are fine vegan. The alternative is not any healthier or normal for them to eat,

either, sorry.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Get the free toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware

protection.

 

 

[Guest guest]

thats fascinating...

 

i have lived in the city my whole life..i have observed only 2-3 cats,

of many domestic ones, actually hunt and bring back prey...it is

interesting..

but the point im trying to make is about the big daddy cats, the

biggest, if THEY can have it trained out of them to hunt for food

because they are hand fed, i maintain that the need to kill for food

is not *necessary*...its added..

 

the bird thing is interesting too..but again, if we raise it, how do

we teach it survival skills? We cant...

 

im not saying if you allow cats and dogs to hunt that they

wont....some will...there are no absolutes...but if their primitive

forbears, wolves and lions, can be domesticated, from the wild, im

saying them killing for food is not an absolute either..its not

hardwired...and if its not hardwired...when did it start? And why? And

what was the option?

 

how close to " eden " can we get empirically?

 

im not religious, (almost converted to judaism tho) just study

religion...but like tearing apart " hard truths "

a

 

On 6/27/07, Belinda <MistyBlueTN wrote:

> Oh yea, domestic cats are avid hunters. All of my cats have hunted

> and killed. From the smallest mouse to good size rabbits and

> squirrels and birds.. And yes, they good quality cat food available

> at all times.

> I watched with my dad when I was a child, our domestic cat bring prey

> to her litter of kittens. It was fascinating.

>

> Domestic cats that do not hunt, don't have the opportunity to do so.

> If you want to witness cats hunting, just spend sometime around the

> barn and the barn cats that dwell there.

> And no, the barn cats are not always ferel. Many barn cats are pets.

>

> It is a myth that bird will not take care of their young if you

> handle them.

> I know, I have done it.

>

> Dogs still hunt too, when given the opportunity or out of necessaty.

> Not all dogs are interested in it. But believe me. They hunt and

> kill and feed. Just like their wild cousins.

> Every dog that I have ever had, (and that would be several) could

> easily hunt and feed themselves without a human.

> The only exception would be the Basset Hound. Who had the knowledge,

> intelligence and desire to hunt, but physically she was a freak of

> nature and not built for it.

> But she did consume the prey that the cat brought in or the other

> dogs. Something else that is interesting. They still lived as a

> pack and would sometimes would share the kill. Just as the wild

> canines do. But since actually getting to kill something was rather

> rare, it was often totaly consumed by the alpha in the pack and not

> much left for the others.

>

> Belinda

>

>

>

> >

> > yes it is! Funny how quickly the " ingrained " need to hunt can be

> > erased...doesnt seem to jibe with millions of years of evolutionary

> > reinforcement does it? This has happened with the great cats, so

> > arguing domestic cats doesnt serve to negate its being

> erasable..most

> > domestic cats dont hunt..

> >

> > consider how the " need to kill " really isnt....its a construct based

> > on a need to feed oneself (since no one else can feed them, like

> now)

> > and just being taught by a parent... If you keep an animal in

> > captivity past a certain stage, they lose the ability to hunt and

> cant

> > be released..if you pick up a baby bird, the parent will leave it to

> > die and even ifyou cared for it, it will never be taught how to nest

> > and feed itself..

> >

> > wolves used to hunt with humans because we went for similar prey. We

> > evolved together hunting as a team...hence the man/dog connection.

> >

> > think about it...is it possible that the most " ingrained " form of

> > killing, being so easy to erase, might be evidence that killing

> > isnt/wasnt the only way?

> >

> > anna

> >

> > On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> > > Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as

> scavengers,

> > > a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and Nature.

> > >

> > > Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as

> some--but

> > > not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human

> settlements. The

> > > idea is that those wolves who felt safer in proximity to humans

> came in the

> > > closest to these settlements. These wolves experienced the

> greatest safety

> > > in the presence of humans. Within a very short time ... likely a

> single

> > > human generation ... their hormonal output changed dramatically,

> their

> > > genetic encoding for skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc.

> changed to

> > > match, and they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to

> this

> > > transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

> > > domesticating them almost from birth.

> > >

> > > This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev

> just a few

> > > decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were

> raised for

> > > their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes that

> would not

> > > attack their human overseers). This scientist bred selectively

> for the

> > > tamest foxes in the house, and within a single decade, those

> foxes had

> > > evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans around, the works.

> > >

> > > Fascinating stuff!!

> > >

> > > Best,

> > > Elchanan

> > > _____

> > >

> > > rawfood [rawfood ] On

> Behalf Of

> > > Jennifer Smith

> > > Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM

> > > rawfood

> > > [Raw Food] Re: raw for pets

> > >

> > >

> > > Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

> These

> > > animals are not herbivores or omnivores. In the wild, they hunt

> and kill

> > > live prey. Therefore, the only time they ingest greens is through

> their

> > > prey's stomach contents. The same rule should also be held in

> regards to

> > > dairy products. Like humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk

> after

> > > infancy.

> > >

> > > I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes

> against some

> > > vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important

> for the

> > > health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it is

> VERY

> > > unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed our

> kids

> > > McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets

> inappropriate

> > > foods, either

> > >

> > > Jenn

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

" if it is taken in "

 

" .....they get tamed "

 

do you see the fluidity of something that society assumes is " hard wired " ?

 

what im getting at is the fluidity and INSTABILITY of their killing instinct....

 

after millions of years of reinforcement im saying IT SHOULDNT BE

REMOVABLE AT ALL....and yet it is..

 

my observations are purely anecdotal....i claim no expertise

whatsoever on animal hunting practices..thats not my

field...theological truths are what im about..and with just ONE tamed

tiger, i could still form my theory...so a few (or many) killer

kitties dont scare me away...feel free to enlighten me on all

your'alls huntin' pets..

 

i find it VERY interesting...

 

hey neal....i didnt get to post to you yesterday, but im including my

argument over a series of posts..so youll see where im coming from...

 

i will add that the *wrongness* of killing comes from rabbi hillel,

" what you yourself detest, do not do to others " .

 

consider the lack of a solid " need " to kill and marry it to our desire

to survive..

 

anna

 

On 6/27/07, Kristi <pixiechik wrote:

> On Jun 27, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Anna Bishop wrote:

>

> > yes it is! Funny how quickly the " ingrained " need to hunt can be

> > erased...doesnt seem to jibe with millions of years of evolutionary

> > reinforcement does it? This has happened with the great cats, so

> > arguing domestic cats doesnt serve to negate its being erasable..most

> > domestic cats dont hunt..

> >

> I have never met a domesticated cat that did not hunt something

> (mice, bugs, and such). My cats started hunting at one year old

> (having been raw feed since 5 weeks old) as soon as I began letting

> them have access to the backyard...I know I never taught them to hunt!

>

> > consider how the " need to kill " really isnt....its a construct based

> > on a need to feed oneself (since no one else can feed them, like now)

> > and just being taught by a parent... If you keep an animal in

> > captivity past a certain stage, they lose the ability to hunt and cant

> > be released..

>

> That's not entirely true...it's not that they " lost " the ability,

> it's that us humans tamed the creature making it more vulnerable in

> the wild. They CAN hunt, but have no conception that what they caught

> is food. Also, they tend to become " outcasts " when released to the

> wild and are not usually allowed to join a pack/pride. This usually

> is what leads to their death. They may be run out of a territory or

> straight out killed by a rival.

>

> > if you pick up a baby bird, the parent will leave it to

> > die and even ifyou cared for it, it will never be taught how to nest

> > and feed itself..

> >

> That's just an old wives tale. Not true...

>

>

> > wolves used to hunt with humans because we went for similar prey. We

> > evolved together hunting as a team...hence the man/dog connection.

> >

> > think about it...is it possible that the most " ingrained " form of

> > killing, being so easy to erase, might be evidence that killing

> > isnt/wasnt the only way?

>

> If a " domesticated " kitten is put in the " wild " and it is taken in by

> an elder animal, it'll learn to hunt (for food) with no problems..

>

>

> Kristi

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Elchanan,

 

I saw a show long ago about some people that were raising foxes, that

subsequently became domesticated. It sounds like the Russian

scientist you described, but I'm sure it was much more recent. So,

perhaps not. Anyway, it took only a few generations for marked

changes to occur. If I remember correctly, their ears lopped, they

showed spotty markings (like many dog breeds), and they became docile.

 

Everyone, I don't believe that eating vegetation has negative effects

on dogs, so long as the main course is raw meaty bones. Eating raw

bones is especially important for reasons best described, to my

knowledge, in Tom Lonsdale's book, " Raw Meaty Bones " . One of his books

is available for free and downloadable at http://www.rawmeatybones.com/

 

Btw, my dogs were completely fine during the fast. I thought they

would send me the " psychic dog power " vibe for food, but they didn't

until the fourth day. Since fasting, their physical endurance has

increased, eyes are brighter, and skin irritations are subsiding.

 

For those who resist wrapping their brain around fasting animals, keep

in mind that these dogs had no choice in the matter when they were

vaccinated and fed kibble filled with who-knows-what. Speaking of, I

just read an article in our local newspaper that a woman has buried

three of her young Yorkies this year. She is joining some

class-action lawsuit against the pet food companies. I love the way

the articles put the blame on China for the melamine in the foods when

all along the " food " was terrible. Look at any dog/cat food bag for a

long list of words that can't be pronounced by the average human. We

should be questioning why we are getting our dog food from China,

among other questions.

 

I believe it's clear that I have the best intentions toward these

dogs. Food isn't the only reason they stick around.

 

Janet

 

rawfood , " Elchanan " <Elchanan wrote:

 

Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as

scavengers, a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and

Nature.

 

Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as

some--but not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human

settlements. The idea is that those wolves who felt safer in

proximity to humans came in the closest to these settlements. These

wolves experienced the greatest safety in the presence of humans.

Within a very short time ... likely a single human generation ...

their hormonal output changed dramatically, their genetic encoding for

skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc. changed to match, and

they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to this

transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

domesticating them almost from birth.

 

This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev just a

few decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were

raised for their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes

that would not attack their human overseers). This scientist bred

selectively for the tamest foxes in the house, and within a single

decade, those foxes had evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans

around, the works.

 

Fascinating stuff!!

 

Best, Elchanan _____ rawfood

[rawfood ] On Behalf Of Jennifer Smith Sent:

Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM rawfood Subject:

[Raw Food] Re: raw for pets Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits,

vegetables, grains, etc. These animals are not herbivores or

omnivores. In the wild, they hunt and kill live prey. Therefore, the

only time they ingest greens is through their prey's stomach contents.

The same rule should also be held in regards to dairy products. Like

humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk after infancy.

 

I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes against

some vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important

for the health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it

is VERY unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed

our kids McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets

[Guest guest]

Genetically the wolf and dog are the same species. So far there are

no genetic test to distinguish between a dog and a wolf. No

differences in karyotypes have been found between the wolf and the

domestic dog, coyote or red wolf.

Just like there are no genetic test to distinguish one breed of dog

from another breed.

Dogs, wolves, and coyotes require the same type foods and nutrients

to thrive. Whatever one will be healthy on, the other will be too.

Digestive tracts are still the same between all of them.

 

Many northern type breeds of dogs (such as huskies) carry many or all

of the same physical attributes of the wolf.

 

Wolves and dogs can and will mate naturally, without human

intervention, (wolves and dogs don't even know the difference)and the

resulting offspring will be fertile and able to reproduce. Just as is

when different breeds of dogs mate.

However, foxes and dogs do not mate natuarly.

 

So, in other words, the domesticated wolf is the dog.

 

 

Belinda

 

 

> Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as

scavengers,

> a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and Nature.

>

> Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as

some--but

> not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human

settlements. The

> idea is that those wolves who felt safer in proximity to humans

came in the

> closest to these settlements. These wolves experienced the

greatest safety

> in the presence of humans. Within a very short time ... likely a

single

> human generation ... their hormonal output changed dramatically,

their

> genetic encoding for skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc.

changed to

> match, and they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to

this

> transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

> domesticating them almost from birth.

>

> This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev just

a few

> decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were

raised for

> their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes that

would not

> attack their human overseers). This scientist bred selectively for

the

> tamest foxes in the house, and within a single decade, those foxes

had

> evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans around, the works.

>

> Fascinating stuff!!

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> rawfood [rawfood ] On

Behalf Of

> Jennifer Smith

> Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM

> rawfood

> [Raw Food] Re: raw for pets

>

>

> Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

These

> animals are not herbivores or omnivores. In the wild, they hunt and

kill

> live prey. Therefore, the only time they ingest greens is through

their

> prey's stomach contents. The same rule should also be held in

regards to

> dairy products. Like humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk

after

> infancy.

>

> I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes against

some

> vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important for

the

> health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it is VERY

> unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed our

kids

> McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets

inappropriate

> foods, either

>

> Jenn

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

indeed it is...

 

what of the leg knee joints?

 

are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there was....

 

anna

 

On 6/27/07, Belinda <MistyBlueTN wrote:

> Genetically the wolf and dog are the same species. So far there are

> no genetic test to distinguish between a dog and a wolf. No

> differences in karyotypes have been found between the wolf and the

> domestic dog, coyote or red wolf.

> Just like there are no genetic test to distinguish one breed of dog

> from another breed.

> Dogs, wolves, and coyotes require the same type foods and nutrients

> to thrive. Whatever one will be healthy on, the other will be too.

> Digestive tracts are still the same between all of them.

>

> Many northern type breeds of dogs (such as huskies) carry many or all

> of the same physical attributes of the wolf.

>

> Wolves and dogs can and will mate naturally, without human

> intervention, (wolves and dogs don't even know the difference)and the

> resulting offspring will be fertile and able to reproduce. Just as is

> when different breeds of dogs mate.

> However, foxes and dogs do not mate natuarly.

>

> So, in other words, the domesticated wolf is the dog.

>

>

> Belinda

>

>

> > Actually Jennifer, this is untrue of dogs. Dogs are designed as

> scavengers,

> > a curious outcome of the interaction between humanity and Nature.

> >

> > Present thinking is that dogs evolved around 16,000 years ago, as

> some--but

> > not all-wolves began scavenging trash in expanding human

> settlements. The

> > idea is that those wolves who felt safer in proximity to humans

> came in the

> > closest to these settlements. These wolves experienced the

> greatest safety

> > in the presence of humans. Within a very short time ... likely a

> single

> > human generation ... their hormonal output changed dramatically,

> their

> > genetic encoding for skeletal structure, digestive systems, etc.

> changed to

> > match, and they became dogs. Of course, humans probably added to

> this

> > transformation by picking up some of those cute little babies and

> > domesticating them almost from birth.

> >

> > This effect was recreated by a Russian scientist named Belyaev just

> a few

> > decades ago. On a fox farm in Siberia, where the animals were

> raised for

> > their pelts, there was a desire to breed tamer foxes (foxes that

> would not

> > attack their human overseers). This scientist bred selectively for

> the

> > tamest foxes in the house, and within a single decade, those foxes

> had

> > evolved into dogs. They bark, follow humans around, the works.

> >

> > Fascinating stuff!!

> >

> > Best,

> > Elchanan

> > _____

> >

> > rawfood [rawfood ] On

> Behalf Of

> > Jennifer Smith

> > Tuesday, June 26, 2007 8:40 AM

> > rawfood

> > [Raw Food] Re: raw for pets

> >

> >

> > Cats and dogs should not be fed fruits, vegetables, grains, etc.

> These

> > animals are not herbivores or omnivores. In the wild, they hunt and

> kill

> > live prey. Therefore, the only time they ingest greens is through

> their

> > prey's stomach contents. The same rule should also be held in

> regards to

> > dairy products. Like humans, animals are not meant to ingest milk

> after

> > infancy.

> >

> > I know the idea of feeding one's beloved pets raw meat goes against

> some

> > vegans' and vegetarians' principles, but this is very important for

> the

> > health of our fur babies. I've heard of " vegan " dogs, but it is VERY

> > unhealthy for them; I consider it criminal. We wouldn't feed our

> kids

> > McDonald's for every meal, so we shouldn't feed out pets

> inappropriate

> > foods, either

> >

> > Jenn

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Yes, Janet, quite literally these foxes have transformed into genuine, grade

A dogs, in almost every respect imaginable.

 

I have seen PBS or Discovery (or the like) coverage on this once upon a

time.

 

Best,

Elchanan

_____

 

rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

Janet FitzGerald

Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:28 PM

rawfood

[Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs (WAS: raw for

pets)

 

 

Elchanan,

 

I saw a show long ago about some people that were raising foxes, that

subsequently became domesticated. It sounds like the Russian scientist you

described, but I'm sure it was much more recent. So, perhaps not. Anyway,

it took only a few generations for marked changes to occur. If I remember

correctly, their ears lopped, they showed spotty markings (like many dog

breeds), and they became docile.

 

<<< snip >>>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth, cranial cavity

shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and chemistry ... from end

to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No question about it!

 

Elchanan

_____

 

rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

Anna Bishop

Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs (WAS: raw

for pets)

 

 

indeed it is...

 

what of the leg knee joints?

 

are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there was....

 

anna

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There are differences in skull, teeth, shape, size, legs, etc,

between different breeds of dogs to. The digestive systems of dogs

are the same as wolves. They all need the same foods to be healthy.

The only difference in the wolves and dogs is their behaviour.

 

I have studied this quite a bit.

 

Belinda

 

 

 

> Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth, cranial

cavity

> shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and chemistry ...

from end

> to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No question

about it!

>

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> rawfood [rawfood ] On

Behalf Of

> Anna Bishop

> Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> rawfood

> Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs

(WAS: raw

> for pets)

>

>

> indeed it is...

>

> what of the leg knee joints?

>

> are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there

was....

>

> anna

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

yes...i was agreeing that they became our dogs...but ive been up close

to wolf hybrids..they are quite different to dogs and easily

recognizable as wolves by anatomical differences..

 

theyr gorgeous animals tho..really special..hence the black market in hybrids...

 

you gotta be real careful what you breed with the wolf, not all mixes

inherit a mild temprament...and wolves are very twitchy critters..

 

anna

 

On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth, cranial cavity

> shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and chemistry ... from end

> to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No question about it!

>

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

> Anna Bishop

> Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> rawfood

> Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs (WAS: raw

> for pets)

>

>

> indeed it is...

>

> what of the leg knee joints?

>

> are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there was....

>

> anna

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

i have read and seen reports that their DNA is the same but they are

clearly not physically the same....

 

anna

 

On 6/27/07, Belinda <MistyBlueTN wrote:

> There are differences in skull, teeth, shape, size, legs, etc,

> between different breeds of dogs to. The digestive systems of dogs

> are the same as wolves. They all need the same foods to be healthy.

> The only difference in the wolves and dogs is their behaviour.

>

> I have studied this quite a bit.

>

> Belinda

>

>

>

> > Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth, cranial

> cavity

> > shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and chemistry ...

> from end

> > to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No question

> about it!

> >

> > Elchanan

> > _____

> >

> > rawfood [rawfood ] On

> Behalf Of

> > Anna Bishop

> > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> > rawfood

> > Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs

> (WAS: raw

> > for pets)

> >

> >

> > indeed it is...

> >

> > what of the leg knee joints?

> >

> > are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there

> was....

> >

> > anna

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There are anatomical differences in Greyhounds, Yorkshire Terriers,

Dachsunds, Basset Hounds, Collies, German Shepherds, Chinese Sharpei,

Basenji, etc. So, of course there are some differences in wolves

and " some " dogs.

 

We are sooooo off topic on this. So it ends for me. The info is

easy to look up and there are books out there on the subject of

wolves and dogs too.

Dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. are my thing. I have always found them

all to be fascinating. As I do many of God's creatures. I very much

love them all and have spent time studying all I could since I was

very young.

 

Belinda

 

 

 

> yes...i was agreeing that they became our dogs...but ive been up

close

> to wolf hybrids..they are quite different to dogs and easily

> recognizable as wolves by anatomical differences..

>

> theyr gorgeous animals tho..really special..hence the black market

in hybrids...

>

> you gotta be real careful what you breed with the wolf, not all

mixes

> inherit a mild temprament...and wolves are very twitchy critters..

>

> anna

>

> On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> > Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth,

cranial cavity

> > shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and

chemistry ... from end

> > to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No

question about it!

> >

> > Elchanan

> > _____

> >

> > rawfood [rawfood ] On

Behalf Of

> > Anna Bishop

> > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> > rawfood

> > Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs

(WAS: raw

> > for pets)

> >

> >

> > indeed it is...

> >

> > what of the leg knee joints?

> >

> > are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there

was....

> >

> > anna

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

There is no black market on wolves or wolf hybreds in my area. I can

find them and buy them and breed them all day long.

 

Belinda

 

 

> yes...i was agreeing that they became our dogs...but ive been up

close

> to wolf hybrids..they are quite different to dogs and easily

> recognizable as wolves by anatomical differences..

>

> theyr gorgeous animals tho..really special..hence the black market

in hybrids...

>

> you gotta be real careful what you breed with the wolf, not all

mixes

> inherit a mild temprament...and wolves are very twitchy critters..

>

> anna

>

> On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> > Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth,

cranial cavity

> > shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and

chemistry ... from end

> > to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No

question about it!

> >

> > Elchanan

> > _____

> >

> > rawfood [rawfood ] On

Behalf Of

> > Anna Bishop

> > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> > rawfood

> > Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs

(WAS: raw

> > for pets)

> >

> >

> > indeed it is...

> >

> > what of the leg knee joints?

> >

> > are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there

was....

> >

> > anna

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

one of our retired sergeants had one....i got the info from

him....about 5yrs ago...so memory is weak...

 

but their temprament is not guaranteed, so owning one is a

gamble....it is not legal to own wolves, so how and why anyone would

just willy nilly buy a hybrid is beyond me....

 

i did run into one at a dog park once....gorgeous cream colored mix

with a golden retriever....ssswweeeetest thing youve ever seen....got

on its back for you to rub its belly...the whole bit...visually

totally wolf but for the color...the coat was incredible..like a super

heavy soft wolfs coat...really striking animal...

 

but i remember being told they were not for regular commercial

sale...otherwise why doesnt *everyone* have one?...they leave other

dog breeds in the dust...

 

anna

 

On 6/27/07, Belinda <MistyBlueTN wrote:

> There is no black market on wolves or wolf hybreds in my area. I can

> find them and buy them and breed them all day long.

>

> Belinda

>

>

> > yes...i was agreeing that they became our dogs...but ive been up

> close

> > to wolf hybrids..they are quite different to dogs and easily

> > recognizable as wolves by anatomical differences..

> >

> > theyr gorgeous animals tho..really special..hence the black market

> in hybrids...

> >

> > you gotta be real careful what you breed with the wolf, not all

> mixes

> > inherit a mild temprament...and wolves are very twitchy critters..

> >

> > anna

> >

> > On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan wrote:

> > > Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth,

> cranial cavity

> > > shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and

> chemistry ... from end

> > > to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No

> question about it!

> > >

> > > Elchanan

> > > _____

> > >

> > > rawfood [rawfood ] On

> Behalf Of

> > > Anna Bishop

> > > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> > > rawfood

> > > Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs

> (WAS: raw

> > > for pets)

> > >

> > >

> > > indeed it is...

> > >

> > > what of the leg knee joints?

> > >

> > > are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there

> was....

> > >

> > > anna

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

The topic on dogs has gone astray, but we were originally talking

about feeding them raw, fasting them, and these are all topics that

can help us learn about ourselves. For this reason, I don't consider

it OT.

 

Janet

 

rawfood , " Belinda " <MistyBlueTN wrote:

 

There are anatomical differences in Greyhounds, Yorkshire Terriers,

Dachsunds, Basset Hounds, Collies, German Shepherds, Chinese Sharpei,

Basenji, etc. So, of course there are some differences in wolves and

" some " dogs.

 

We are sooooo off topic on this. So it ends for me. The info is easy

to look up and there are books out there on the subject of wolves and

dogs too.

Dogs, wolves, coyotes, etc. are my thing. I have always found them

all to be fascinating. As I do many of God's creatures. I very much

love them all and have spent time studying all I could since I was

very young.

 

Belinda yes...i was agreeing that they became our dogs...but ive been

up close to wolf hybrids..they are quite different to dogs and easily

recognizable as wolves by anatomical differences..

 

theyr gorgeous animals tho..really special..hence the black market in

hybrids...

 

you gotta be real careful what you breed with the wolf, not all mixes

inherit a mild temprament...and wolves are very twitchy critters..

 

anna On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan@> wrote:

Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth, cranial

cavity shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and chemistry

.... from end to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves.

No question about it!

 

Elchanan _____ rawfood

[rawfood ] On Behalf Of Anna Bishop Sent:

Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM rawfood Subject:

Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about dogs (WAS: raw for

pets)

 

 

indeed it is...

 

what of the leg knee joints?

 

are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn there was....

 

anna

[Guest guest]

Everyone does not have wolf hybrids because everyone (such as myself)

does not want one. For the reasons you are speaking of.

There are many dog breeds and crosses that I do not want. Many dog

breeds are not for everyone for various reasons.

 

Belinda

 

 

 

 

> one of our retired sergeants had one....i got the info from

> him....about 5yrs ago...so memory is weak...

>

> but their temprament is not guaranteed, so owning one is a

> gamble....it is not legal to own wolves, so how and why anyone would

> just willy nilly buy a hybrid is beyond me....

>

> i did run into one at a dog park once....gorgeous cream colored mix

> with a golden retriever....ssswweeeetest thing youve ever

seen....got

> on its back for you to rub its belly...the whole bit...visually

> totally wolf but for the color...the coat was incredible..like a

super

> heavy soft wolfs coat...really striking animal...

>

> but i remember being told they were not for regular commercial

> sale...otherwise why doesnt *everyone* have one?...they leave other

> dog breeds in the dust...

>

> anna

>

> On 6/27/07, Belinda <MistyBlueTN wrote:

> > There is no black market on wolves or wolf hybreds in my area. I

can

> > find them and buy them and breed them all day long.

> >

> > Belinda

> >

> >

> > > yes...i was agreeing that they became our dogs...but ive been up

> > close

> > > to wolf hybrids..they are quite different to dogs and easily

> > > recognizable as wolves by anatomical differences..

> > >

> > > theyr gorgeous animals tho..really special..hence the black

market

> > in hybrids...

> > >

> > > you gotta be real careful what you breed with the wolf, not all

> > mixes

> > > inherit a mild temprament...and wolves are very twitchy

critters..

> > >

> > > anna

> > >

> > > On 6/27/07, Elchanan <Elchanan@> wrote:

> > > > Anna, the entire structures are different ... skull, teeth,

> > cranial cavity

> > > > shape and relative size, legs, digestive anatomy and

> > chemistry ... from end

> > > > to end, dogs are related to yet different from wolves. No

> > question about it!

> > > >

> > > > Elchanan

> > > > _____

> > > >

> > > > rawfood

[rawfood ] On

> > Behalf Of

> > > > Anna Bishop

> > > > Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:47 PM

> > > > rawfood

> > > > Re: [Raw Food] Re: Updating our understanding about

dogs

> > (WAS: raw

> > > > for pets)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > indeed it is...

> > > >

> > > > what of the leg knee joints?

> > > >

> > > > are there not differences in the legs? I could have sworn

there

> > was....

> > > >

> > > > anna

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >