Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Sounds great, Caron!! I'm not suggesting that we forgo pleasure. Rather, I['m suggesting that we gain clarity about the distinction between clarity between pleasure and joy, so that we may choose consciously. Best, Elchanan _____ rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Caron Thursday, July 05, 2007 6:28 PM rawfood Re: [Raw Food] Herbs & Toxins; Natural Hygiene Notes; On Variety and Sufficiency (WAS: What is " enough " of a bitter green? Does the body store nutrients?) >I have learned to shift my perception about all of this. First, I now perceive food and eating primarily in association with self-care, not pleasure. There are many, many other sources for pleasure. Second, I've learned to distinguish pleasure, which is fleeting, from joy, which is sustaining and genuinely uplifting. I now seek and create much more joy in my life than I did for many years ... and I find that doing so requires much less effort. Genuine joy has a self-maintaining, self-sustaining quality, as does genuine health. That's given me something to think about, thank you. I must say though, I got a great shot of pleasure last week, when we picked up our fruits'n'veg, and got a whole case of bananas, and fresh dates, mmm ;o) Caron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 - Elchanan >I'm not suggesting that we forgo pleasure. Rather, I['m suggesting that we gain clarity about the distinction between clarity between pleasure and joy, so that we may choose consciously. I think that's what a lot of people (myself included) have trouble with, which is why your original paragraph: " I have learned to shift my perception about all of this. First, I now perceive food and eating primarily in association with self-care, not pleasure. There are many, many other sources for pleasure. Second, I've learned to distinguish pleasure, which is fleeting, from joy, which is sustaining and genuinely uplifting. I now seek and create much more joy in my life than I did for many years ... and I find that doing so requires much less effort. Genuine joy has a self-maintaining, self-sustaining quality, as does genuine health. " hit home. A lot of people (myself included, until recent years), equate food with love. Parents reward with food, or punish with food, family times are often centred around meals (christmas dinner, thanksgiving, birthdays, are all about the food). Even pottying is taught using foods as incentive! I was aware enough to make a decision never to use food as anything other than fuel, for my child(ren), and that woke me up enough to realise that's how I saw it myself, in some regards. In addition, a lot of people seek " happiness " , but they really don't know what it means! Happiness can mean anything from more money to spend, more computer gadgets, going out partying and drinking enough to pass out, more sex, more food, or whatever their particular drug is. Those things don't make them happy though, because as soon as they're on their own, the world comes crashing back in. They avoid having a family, because they want to be happy, they avoid working because they want to be happy. They want to have fun, not responsibility. A lot of parents I know don't make their kids do chores because they want them to be happy and have fun. Those kids grow up, and have to get a job, and suddenly become unhappy. Again, I made a decision, that while being happy is a bonus, I'd rather my son be content - content to work, content to play, content with his family and/or friends, or on his own. If you're constantly between happiness and unhappiness, it gets exhausting. If you can feel those emotions from a contented resting place, it's so much easier. I'm still working out how to achieve this for myself ;o) I've been on the verge a few times, enough to know that's how I want to live. Somehow your statement that " pleasure is fleeting, joy is sustaining " was really profound, and one of the key pieces I've been looking for. Another work in progress ) Caron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 I will have to disagree here. I have raised 3 children of my own and been involved with many more. Sometimes children are happy, many times they are not. And that begins with the second they are born. Their happiness depends on their wants and needs and whether or not they are being met. And many times they don't even know what they want or what they need.) Pretty much like adults. The human race is very demanding as a whole. Belinda Happiness is the natural state of > little children, to whom the kingdom belongs until they have been > polluted and contaminated by the stupidity of society and culture. > To acquire happiness you don't have to do anything, because happiness > cannot be acquired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 On Friday 06 July 2007 06:10, Caron wrote: > In addition, a lot of people seek " happiness " , but they really don't know > what it means! Happiness can mean anything from more money to spend, more > computer gadgets, going out partying and drinking enough to pass out, more > sex, more food, or whatever their particular drug is. Those things don't > make them happy though, because as soon as they're on their own, the world > comes crashing back in. They avoid having a family, because they want to be > happy, they avoid working because they want to be happy. They want to have > fun, not responsibility. A lot of parents I know don't make their kids do > chores because they want them to be happy and have fun. Those kids grow up, > and have to get a job, and suddenly become unhappy. Again, I made a > decision, that while being happy is a bonus, I'd rather my son be content - > content to work, content to play, content with his family and/or friends, > or on his own. If you're constantly between happiness and unhappiness, it > gets exhausting. If you can feel those emotions from a contented resting > place, it's so much easier. I'm still working out how to achieve this for > myself ;o) I've been on the verge a few times, enough to know that's how I > want to live. Somehow your statement that " pleasure is fleeting, joy is > sustaining " was really profound, and one of the key pieces I've been > looking for. Another work in progress ) > > Caron =============================================== Do you want to be happy? Uninterrupted happiness is uncaused. True happiness is uncaused. You cannot make me happy. You are not my happiness. You say to the awakened person, " Why are you happy? " and the awakened person replies, " Why not? " Happiness is our natural state. Happiness is the natural state of little children, to whom the kingdom belongs until they have been polluted and contaminated by the stupidity of society and culture. To acquire happiness you don't have to do anything, because happiness cannot be acquired. Does anybody know why? Because we have it already. How can you acquire what you already have? Then why don't you experience it? Because you've got to drop something. You've got to drop illusions. You don't have to add anything in order to be happy; you've got to drop something. Life is easy, life is delightful. It's only hard on your illusions, your ambitions, your greed, your cravings. Do you know where these things come from? From having identified with all kinds of labels! Anthony de Mello, SJ =============================================== extracted chapter 24 - Obstacles to Happiness from " Awareness " by Anthony de Mello SJ. neal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 Hi Caron, Yes, when one experiences genuine happiness, that craving for more stuff just vanishes. This does not mean an end to all forms of desire, but rather an end to any sense of NEEDING those things in order to be " happy " . Yes, the pleasure is fleeting, joy is sustaining! And we can well experience both ... as long as we learn to distinguish between the two. Elchanan _____ rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Caron Thursday, July 05, 2007 11:11 PM rawfood Re: [Raw Food] Pleasure vs. Joy Elchanan I'm not suggesting that we forgo pleasure. Rather, I['m suggesting that we gain clarity about the distinction between clarity between pleasure and joy, so that we may choose consciously. I think that's what a lot of people (myself included) have trouble with, which is why your original paragraph: " I have learned to shift my perception about all of this. First, I now perceive food and eating primarily in association with self-care, not pleasure. There are many, many other sources for pleasure. Second, I've learned to distinguish pleasure, which is fleeting, from joy, which is sustaining and genuinely uplifting. I now seek and create much more joy in my life than I did for many years ... and I find that doing so requires much less effort. Genuine joy has a self-maintaining, self-sustaining quality, as does genuine health. " hit home. A lot of people (myself included, until recent years), equate food with love. Parents reward with food, or punish with food, family times are often centred around meals (christmas dinner, thanksgiving, birthdays, are all about the food). Even pottying is taught using foods as incentive! I was aware enough to make a decision never to use food as anything other than fuel, for my child(ren), and that woke me up enough to realise that's how I saw it myself, in some regards. In addition, a lot of people seek " happiness " , but they really don't know what it means! Happiness can mean anything from more money to spend, more computer gadgets, going out partying and drinking enough to pass out, more sex, more food, or whatever their particular drug is. Those things don't make them happy though, because as soon as they're on their own, the world comes crashing back in. They avoid having a family, because they want to be happy, they avoid working because they want to be happy. They want to have fun, not responsibility. A lot of parents I know don't make their kids do chores because they want them to be happy and have fun. Those kids grow up, and have to get a job, and suddenly become unhappy. Again, I made a decision, that while being happy is a bonus, I'd rather my son be content - content to work, content to play, content with his family and/or friends, or on his own. If you're constantly between happiness and unhappiness, it gets exhausting. If you can feel those emotions from a contented resting place, it's so much easier. I'm still working out how to achieve this for myself ;o) I've been on the verge a few times, enough to know that's how I want to live. Somehow your statement that " pleasure is fleeting, joy is sustaining " was really profound, and one of the key pieces I've been looking for. Another work in progress ) Caron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2007 Report Share Posted July 6, 2007 On Friday 06 July 2007 13:20, Belinda wrote: > The human race is very demanding as a whole. > > > Belinda Exactly! You are talking about nothing more than satisfying need. It is removing discomfort. This is not happiness. Have you never felt happy for no reason? What you talk about are like clouds covering the sun. The sun still shines. Remove the clouds (the discomforts/needs) and happiness is revealed. neal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 - neal > " Do you want to be happy? Uninterrupted happiness is uncaused. True happiness is uncaused. You cannot make me happy. You are not my happiness. You say to the awakened person, " Why are you happy? " and the awakened person replies, " Why not? " Happiness is our natural state. Happiness is the natural state of little children, to whom the kingdom belongs until they have been polluted and contaminated by the stupidity of society and culture. To acquire happiness you don't have to do anything, because happiness cannot be acquired. Does anybody know why? Because we have it already. How can you acquire what you already have? Then why don't you experience it? Because you've got to drop something. You've got to drop illusions. You don't have to add anything in order to be happy; you've got to drop something. Life is easy, life is delightful. It's only hard on your illusions, your ambitions, your greed, your cravings. Do you know where these things come from? From having identified with all kinds of labels! " Anthony de Mello, SJ =============================================== extracted chapter 24 - Obstacles to Happiness from " Awareness " by Anthony de Mello SJ. Thanks, Neal. I see his point, but because of the way the word " happiness " is used these days, I choose the word " contentment " . Happy is seen to be the opposite of sad, the same as hate is the opposite of love (no, this is not my belief, but mainstream belief). I believe, having experienced it briefly myself, that it's possible to BE content, and at the same time, FEEL a range of emotions, including happiness, sadness, love, hate, anger, compassion, and so on. That's the distinction I'm trying to define for myself. Caron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 - Elchanan >Yes, when one experiences genuine happiness, that craving for more stuff just vanishes. This does not mean an end to all forms of desire, but rather an end to any sense of NEEDING those things in order to be " happy " . and so to distinguish between needs and wants ) Caron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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