introduction and booted

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

I am new to the group and have been lurking a lot and going through

the files which I have found helpful. Everyone has a personal journey

and arrives at their destination in many ways. I certainly don't

think anyone should be booted off the group because they eat a

specific food, mainly because no one on this group should even know

you consume animal products. I have to say, that the ****ONLY****

reason I joined this group vs. other GF groups was so I wouldn't have

to read about the consumption of non-vegan products. The group home

page is very clear that this is a vegan, 100% vegetarian site and

topics will adhere to this - " Sit down at our table, sip a cup of

tea, and smell the delicious aroma from our vegan and gluten-free

kitchen! "

 

I am offended at the inclusion of animal products in the recipes in

the files. I did expect the recipes to say egg replacer or leavening

agent or binder, not " eggs or egg replacer " . I am saying this only

because there are dozens of non vegan gluten free sites. The

advertisement of this site leads one to believe this type of food

talk will be absent. The recipes will be handy regardless but I hope

I do not have to read of animal usage in the posts.

 

I respect others choices and I hope my comments do not get me booted,

but, coming from the reason I joined THIS specific group, I would

greatly appreciate the mention of any animal products witheld. And

recommending that I just not read the posts is not possible as anyone

who moderates or frequents these sites knows. So, well, that's my 2

cents. (Please do not read any bitterness or anger or ugliness into

my words. Email does not translate well especially for those of us

who are very matter of fact. This is just my opinion and request and

no flaming intended.)

Carrol

 

 

, " Sharon Cercone "

<sharon.cercone wrote:

>

> Hi Brenda,

>

> I also have allergies to wheat, soy, and all dairy. I am also very

> sensitive to sugar, salt and caffeine. It has been quite a

lifestyle change

> for me over the past year. You shouldn't be booted from this post

because

> you consume cows milk. I believe this group has quite a mix of

people, some

> who avoid gluten, some who avoid animal products, and others that

avoid

> both. If that is not the case, than I should be booted too because

I eat

> animal protein.

>

> I think you will find this a great place to swap stoires, ideas,

information

> and recipes. In fact, I would love to know how you make your own

shampoos

> and cosmetics! Also, why is it that you can only eat pears?

>

> Thanks,

> Sharon

>

>

>

>

> On 4/9/07, berrywell <berrywell wrote:

> >

> > Hello, I would like to introduce myself. My name is Brenda, I

am 43

> > years old, and the single mother of a 12 year old vegetarian. I

> > have multiple food allergies that prevent me from eating like

other

> > vegans. I am allergic to wheat, soy, eggs, commercial dairy, nuts,

> > tomato, avacado, mushrooms and am sensitive to foods high in

amines,

> > such as spinach, beets, etc. The only fruit I can eat is a fresh,

> > organic pear. I was crippled for over 12 years, and am now

> > perfectly fine as long as I follow a strict diet. I hope what I

> > post next will not get me booted from the group. In an effort to

> > get adequate nutrition, I had to go back to using some dairy

> > products. The way I managed this was to join a cow share program

at

> > a local food co op, and get fresh raw milk from a happy, well

cared

> > for cow. I consider her milk a gift. I cannot eat eggs, but do

> > feed them to my 12 year old vegetarian (we are slowly working up

to

> > vegan for her) daughter. We use eggs only from hens that are on a

> > local farm that are organic, free range, and cruelty free. I have

> > recently started making homemade rice, almond, cashew, and sesame

> > milk, and am slowly transitioning away from cows milk. We are

> > completely vegan in all other regards, and do not use any thing

that

> > has animal by products. We make all of our own cosmetics,

shampoos,

> > household cleansers, and donated all of our leather goods, shoes,

> > etc. to charity. I look forward to sharing ideas, recipes, and

> > other information with you. I hope my necessary consumption of

milk

> > does not preclude me from the group-I am doing it as responsibly

as

> > I can. I am hoping to get ideas for adequate nutrition for both

> > myself and my little girl, and I look forward to learning from

you.

> > Brenda

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Carrol wrote: I am offended at the inclusion of animal products in the

recipes in

the files. I did expect the recipes to say egg replacer or leavening

agent or binder, not " eggs or egg replacer " .

 

Carrol, I am sorry that we have offended you by including some recipes that

may say this. Thus said, Kim and I are more than willing to replace the

offending products in our recipes files, but could use help in identifying

which recipes they are. You have probably noticed that either Kim or myself

post the majority of the recipes given here. And it is our intent that all

recipes here be vegan. We will be more than happy to make the changes to

the offending recipes. If you or others could notify us with titles of

recipes that do not meet the criteria, it would be greatly appreciated. I

am actually sorry that this offended you --- and I will admit to being a

tiny bit offended myself, especially for Kim who has spent literally hours

and hours and hours cataloging all our recipes so they can be there to help

and serve others who are vegan and gluten free. This group has been a real

labor of love --- and hours have been spent making it user friendly (we

hope). It has not been our intention to offend anyone. Please excuse the

occasional slip-ups. It's our intention that our files be 'pure' and 100%

plant based.

 

>>>I am saying this only because there are dozens of non vegan gluten free

sites. The advertisement of this site leads one to believe this type of food

talk will be absent.

 

On this point I do differ some, and maybe I am too lenient as moderator. If

so, then I again apologize and am willing to abide by the wishes of the

group. I know that there are many here who are 'learning' and who are new

to the lifestyle. Some are here not because they are truely vegan, but

because they are allergic to certain animal products and the vegan lifestyle

comes closest to providing them with foods they can eat. Everyone has a

different view and thinks for themself. I haven't cut out people who have

mentioned using animal products, as I see this as a learning process (and

those who speak of the usage of animal products, if here, are then assumed

to be open to hearing about those of us who are vegan and to the benefits of

going animal-free). Each of us has a choice to ingest certain foods ---

good or bad, the ultimate decision is the individuals. By not booting those

who occasionally mention the use of 'meat', it gives us an opportunity for

us to 'educate' them, so to speak (I say that kindly --- to all the " them's "

out there in V & GF).

 

>>>The recipes will be handy regardless but I hope

I do not have to read of animal usage in the posts.

 

I do hope the recipes are helpful to you. Are you reading them from the

" Files " listing or from the archives? Those in the archives

may not be totally converted by Kim yet to vegan if they were posted

otherwise.

 

>>>>I respect others choices and I hope my comments do not get me booted,

but, coming from the reason I joined THIS specific group. . .

 

No Carrol, your comments won't get you booted (grin). You are entitled to

your opinion and I respect that --- just as those who casually and

infrequently mention the use of animal products here are given respect.

 

There is one exception regarding 'vegan' that may occur here on V & GF. It

has been discussed at length and decided upon at the beginning of our group

formation. Many of the 'vegan' recipes used were designed by the original

recipe developers to contain honey. Honey is not a vegan product. The

recipes were great and I personally substitute maple syrup. Others use

Florida Crystals, agave syrup, or Fruit Source. But, because honey has it's

own unique properties, we have listed the recipe as originally intended ---

and have tried to add the words " or vegan alternative " or the words " or

maple syrup, agave syrup, Fruit Source " so the one who prepares the recipe

can make appropriate adaptations according to the properties of their

substitute. There are many groups who call themselves vegan and publish

many great recipes who do consider honey to be a vegan food. Instead of

arguing with this, we have decided to adapt on our own. This is an

'understanding' that we came to at the formation of the list. Right or

wrong, it is how our recipes are filed away.

 

Please, to Carrol and to others on the group, if you would point out the

specific recipes in our FILES section (not the archives; they haven't

been adapted by Kim or LaDonna) that contain eggs or other animal products,

we will be happy to change the to be purely vegan. It is not our intent,

everer, to have recipes in our files that contain eggs, dairy, fish, or

meat.

 

Thank you,

LaDonna

(owner/moderator)

[Guest guest]

Hi Carrol and others,

 

I would just like to explain the reason you may find " Eggs " listed as

an ingredient in a few of the recipes. All of the these do have a

vegan alternative written in brackets next to the eggs or are written

as " X number of eggs, replaced " . I did leave them this way

intentionally for 2 reasons:

 

Firstly, this is the way the recipe was originally written and I think

it is disrespectful to alter the recipe. Also, many copyrights do

state that they don't mind the recipes being shared as long as it is

included the way it is written.

 

The second reason is that I for one, like to know what it is I'm

trying to substitute for. And everyone, or at least those that have

been cooking this way for a while, has their own unique way of

substituting ingredients such as eggs. (Heaps of egg replacer options

can be found in the Egg Substitute folder.)

 

The majority of recipes that do have eggs as an ingredient are bread

recipes. Bread is the hardest product for many gluten-free people, let

alone vegan and gluten-free, to replace. What works for one doesn't

necessarily work for another. Therefore, as many bread recipes as

possible are included to allow each individual to find a recipe that

will suit them, in whichever way they choose to substitute ingredients.

 

I am sorry if you are offended, it is not my intention and I hope you

can enjoy the group in all its diversity. You'll find many, many great

recipes and so many knowledgeable people here.

 

Kim

 

 

, " rtillmansmail "

<rtillmansmail wrote:

 

> I am offended at the inclusion of animal products in the recipes in

> the files. I did expect the recipes to say egg replacer or leavening

> agent or binder, not " eggs or egg replacer " . I am saying this only

> because there are dozens of non vegan gluten free sites.

[Guest guest]

Personally I am happy that Kim does this both out of respect for the

originator of the recipe and for the benefit of those modifying recipes in

different places. Eggs come in different sizes and it might very well be

that what works for Kim with replacing for australian eggs may not be

sufficient in my wetter lower elevation.

 

As Kim said, sometimes recipes will flop and we won't know why, but having

an eye to the original can make it easier to affect changes.

 

BL

 

 

On 4/10/07, Kim <bearhouse5 wrote:

>

> Hi Carrol and others,

>

> I would just like to explain the reason you may find " Eggs " listed as

> an ingredient in a few of the recipes. All of the these do have a

> vegan alternative written in brackets next to the eggs or are written

> as " X number of eggs, replaced " . I did leave them this way

> intentionally for 2 reasons:

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have been out of town and have just been able to reply. I have not

read ahead (I am on digest) and do not know what has been said beyond

this digest.

 

First, thank you for such a nice response. If you didn't gather from

my original post, some groups allow harsh comments to fly. I really

appreciate that you care about your members. As a moderator of

several groups, I know it can be very time consuming.

 

Reviewing the files again, I can see that mostly one person has been

typing in the recipes. That is truly dedication and I didn't mean to

sound catty. I have some writing experience and know that some people

are particular about how their works are posted, even if the

copyright law allows for changes. So I can understand why the recipes

appear the way they do.

 

I understand people look toward many resources when researching or

making a life style change. I din't mean to exclude anyone. I had

been referred to this site by someone else and thought it was meant

for those already vegan that needed to now avoid gluten. I guess I

misunderstood and thought this would be like a sanctuary from all

that other. I truly don't mind helping others - it is after all

important to my life choices. I just get tired of being a vegan and

having more discussions of animal consumption than before I changed

my diet, and I am a veterinarian that had to endure food animal

courses for four years. But, that is my life as a vegan raising a

family as vegans - many issues to consider.

 

I guess I would ask that you let me change my response to: I don't

mind assisting others ( as in " how do I substitute for eggs in this

recipe? " ) but would hope that unnecessary " chatting " about animal

consumption would be avoided (as in " I made this animal dish for the

family last night and everyone just loved it so now I have to

veganize it but I don't want to lose it's animal flavor...).

 

Thank you and my apologies if I hurt anyone's feelings,

Carrol

 

, " LaTeaDah "

<teacups wrote:

>

> Carrol wrote: I am offended at the inclusion of animal products in

the

> recipes in

> the files. I did expect the recipes to say egg replacer or leavening

> agent or binder, not " eggs or egg replacer " .

>

> Carrol, I am sorry that we have offended you by including some

recipes that

> may say this. Thus said, Kim and I are more than willing to

replace the

> offending products in our recipes files, but could use help in

identifying

> which recipes they are.

[Guest guest]

Hi Carrol,

 

>>>I have been out of town and have just been able to reply. I have not

read ahead (I am on digest) and do not know what has been said beyond

this digest.

 

Thank you for writing back. We're glad you are still with us.

 

>>>First, thank you for such a nice response. If you didn't gather from

my original post, some groups allow harsh comments to fly. I really

appreciate that you care about your members. As a moderator of

several groups, I know it can be very time consuming.

 

You're welcome --- and thank you. We try to make this group helpful and

informative. Being vegan in a gluten-free world can be very overwhelming!

 

>>>Reviewing the files again, I can see that mostly one person has been

typing in the recipes. That is truly dedication and I didn't mean to

sound catty. I have some writing experience and know that some people

are particular about how their works are posted, even if the

copyright law allows for changes. So I can understand why the recipes

appear the way they do.

 

It gets difficult, sometimes, to know how to handle some recipe situations.

Your comments have helped Kim and me to re-evaluate and to go through the

recipe files again, working to eliminate offending ingredients. I think it

would be helpful, as well, if we sent out an 'egg substitute' file to all

newbies. It's something we've discussed from time to time, but unless new

members go back and read all the former posts (overwhelming), they aren't

seeing that information and realizing 'where we are' in this regard.

 

>>>I had

been referred to this site by someone else and thought it was meant

for those already vegan that needed to now avoid gluten. I guess I

misunderstood and thought this would be like a sanctuary from all

that other.

 

Well, usually it is --- but we go in spurts! Every now and then, someone

comes out of the woodwork with a non-vegan conversation --- but as long as

the conversation is productive (and they allow others to explain what

alternatives might be, etc.) it's allowed to 'go on' to a point. If it gets

out of hand, rest assured that a moderator's suggestion will be in place.

We are here and the group isn't unmanned as some are. Everyone's tolerance

level is different --- and I suspect mine is higher than most vegans.

 

>>>I truly don't mind helping others - it is after all

important to my life choices. I just get tired of being a vegan and

having more discussions of animal consumption than before I changed

my diet, and I am a veterinarian that had to endure food animal

courses for four years.

 

That would be difficult. Are you saying that they actually taught you 'how'

to make animals more productive for human consumption? Yikes! My

university coursework was in food science and nutrition --- and before

credentials would be given --- I had to 'prove' I could teach a meat cooking

unit adequately. As a life-long veggie --- I winged it 'by the book' and

all went well. I will admit I really knew next to nothing about what I was

'teaching'. LOL!

 

I guess I would ask that you let me change my response to: I don't

mind assisting others ( as in " how do I substitute for eggs in this

recipe? " ) but would hope that unnecessary " chatting " about animal

consumption would be avoided (as in " I made this animal dish for the

family last night and everyone just loved it so now I have to

veganize it but I don't want to lose it's animal flavor...).

 

LOL! Okay. . .point taken. I don't think we have too much of that here. .

..you joined 'mid conversation', but we are back on track now.

 

No feelings hurt, Carrol. We're glad you are here and look forward to your

contribution.

 

Sincerely,

LaDonna

[Guest guest]

Fortunately I didn't have to cook the animals and I managed somehow

to avoid the beef slaughterhouse (unlike most). But I had to do all

those things surgical and no-surgical and visit all those other

houses. Oops, talk that I said I thought was inappropriate for this

site so I guess I need my wrist slapped now. To summarize in a

hopefully less visual way, I had to learn how to take a pair of

animals and produce young from them and then take that youngster to

the market so to speak. I even had to follow the stock market to show

I knew how my medical choices would affect the livlihood of the

rancher. In American veterinary colleges, one cannot specialze until

after graduation. Therefore, I could not limit my studies to

companion animals only. And, since I wanted to work with wild

animals, I actually needed a lot of the info from the food animal

courses - that is where the anatomy/physiology, mechanisms of

diseases and treatment was taught.

 

Carrol

 

, " LaTeaDah "

<teacups wrote:

>

> > >>>I truly don't mind helping others - it is after all

> important to my life choices. I just get tired of being a vegan and

> having more discussions of animal consumption than before I changed

> my diet, and I am a veterinarian that had to endure food animal

> courses for four years.

>

> That would be difficult. Are you saying that they actually taught

you 'how'

> to make animals more productive for human consumption? Yikes! My

> university coursework was in food science and nutrition --- and

before

> credentials would be given --- I had to 'prove' I could teach a

meat cooking

> unit adequately. As a life-long veggie --- I winged it 'by the

book' and

> all went well. I will admit I really knew next to nothing about

what I was

> 'teaching'. LOL!

>

[Guest guest]

Carroll

 

Just out of curiousity, were you also exposed to things like the Krshna Food

for Life programs to the homeless (no meat products only gently given

cheeses, etc., balanced vegetarian meals) or their programs teaching respect

for animals?

 

BL

 

On 4/18/07, rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail wrote:

>

> Fortunately I didn't have to cook the animals and I managed somehow

> to avoid the beef slaughterhouse (unlike most).

>

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oh, absolutely not in school! The state is very conservative

religiously - meaning Amercian right wing politics. There is a branch

close to the Culf Coast of Mississippi, which is where I went to

school). They did a lot of good work after Hurricane Katrina. What I

know about their philosophy and work, I learned after college.

 

We did have a club of students that met to discuss animal welfare but

they didn't " DO " very much. There isn't much time for anything in vet

school. We were told in orientation that if you were married, over

90% of us would be divorced upon graduation and it was true.

 

We did have to follow rules of respect for our animals, even those

which had already given their life. And we learned about the laws

guiding animal research. But we never had the opportuninty to discuss

gentle means of raising animals. I did participate in taking

companion animals to nursing and children's homes as therapy and

donated my time in the wildlife ward - time spent working with the

animals and other time raising money to provide what they needed.

Those of us that worked with birds and wildlife were much quieter,

slower and more gentle with the animals than the rancher types. There

is definitely a different mind set.

 

I don't want to push this discussion onto the group, but you can

email me if you wish to talk further.

Carrol

 

, " Brenda-Lee Olson "

<shalomaleichemacademy wrote:

>

> Carroll

>

> Just out of curiousity, were you also exposed to things like the

Krshna Food

> for Life programs to the homeless (no meat products only gently

given

> cheeses, etc., balanced vegetarian meals) or their programs

teaching respect

> for animals?

>

> BL

>

> On 4/18/07, rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail wrote:

> >

> > Fortunately I didn't have to cook the animals and I managed

somehow

> > to avoid the beef slaughterhouse (unlike most).

> >

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you for your response Carrol

 

I just wondered as I have a huge (and it seems ever increasing) number of

food allergies, intolerances and avoidances (ie nightshades for arthritis or

some inflammatory problem) and in discussing it with a friend who is Krshna,

he was telling me that when it is necessary for protein because I am so

restricted I should only " eat of the lesser animals " meaning fowl and fish

but not the cow.

 

I know many Adventists who also do lots of work with vegan and vegetarian

outreach programs like the ones the Krshna carry out, but the Adventist

programs don't seem to get as much recognition. Many if they started

wearing yellow robes (wink).

 

BL

(who may be taking on the position of co-ordinator for the Food Recovery

Program here locally)

 

On 4/19/07, rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail wrote:

>

> Oh, absolutely not in school! The state is very conservative

> religiously - meaning Amercian right wing politics. There is a branch

> close to the Culf Coast of Mississippi, which is where I went to

> school). They did a lot of good work after Hurricane Katrina. What I

> know about their philosophy and work, I learned after college.

>