Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hello everyone. This post isn't about gluten-free, but it does concern vegans. I recently was at Vegetarian Summerfest and I had the pleasure of hearing James LaVeck (from Tribe of Heart - producers of " The Witness " and " Peaceable Kingdom) speak about something that has been bothering me for a VERY long time. He spoke about all this nonsense that has been going on about " Humanely " raised animal products. Each talk of his was jammed with people. On the day before the Summerfest conference opened, James LaVeck and Jenny Stein released their new website: http://www.humanemyth.org. To keep this short, I will simply say that this website is important for everyone to read and pass along. Regards, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 I don't think this was off topic at all! I think this is important information for anyone trying to eat more compassionately. Thanks so much for sending this! Marilyn **************Get the scoop on last night's hottest shows and the live music scene in your area - Check out TourTracker.com! (http://www.tourtracker.com?NCID=aolmus00050000000112) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 I second your recommendation, Scoot! Marla > Hello, VRG parents. > > This is off topic as it doesn't directly relate to parenting, but I > thought it was worthwhile: > > I recently was at Vegetarian Summerfest and I had the pleasure of > hearing James LaVeck (from Tribe of Heart - producers of " The Witness " > and " Peaceable Kingdom) speak about something that has been bothering > me for a VERY long time. He spoke about all this nonsense that has > been going on about " Humanely " raised animal products. Each talk of > his was jammed with people. > > On the day before the Summerfest conference opened, James LaVeck and > Jenny Stein released their new website: http://www.humanemyth.org. > > To keep this short, I will simply say that this website is important > for everyone to read and pass along. > > Regards, > Scott > > > > --- > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family.This is a discussion list and is not intended to > provide personal medical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a > qualified health professional. > > edical advice. Medical advice should be obtained from a qualified health > professional. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 The idea that it doesn't matter whether animals are factory-farmed or whether they are raised as God or nature (depending on your perspective) intended really bothers me. I have heard several vegans say this. The quality of life of ANY being matters, and there is a huge difference between the way animals are raised on horrific factory farms and how they are raised in small family farms where they are given proper access to grazing, shade, sunlight, and care. If a man is murdered at 21 or dies of cancer at 36 or dies in his sleep at 87--does his quality of life before he died not matter equally, no matter what the circumstances of his death? In my opinion, it absolutely does. And if you believe that as I do, even if you believe that the vegan lifestyle is the only humane way to live, you can still appreciate people being concerned about the welfare of animals during the lives that they live even if those animals will eventually be consumed as meat. (Not to mention the vast further environmental benefits of animals being raised to live as their bodies are adapted to, which improve life for all people and animals.) Now, that does not mean that 'naturally raised' or 'cage-free' mean what they could or should mean. It is up to each person who chooses to consume meat to create relationships with local farmers where those consumers can ascertain how the animals are treated. But to paint factory-farmed animals and TRULY naturally-raised animals with the same brush is, in my opinion, to make a grave mistake if your goal is to improve animals' quality of life. I may be in the minority on here, and I don't want to get into major arguments about this topic because this group really isn't about the politics of veganism or the politics of gluten-free living. It's about common ground for people who are choosing, for whatever reason, to eat a certain way either part-time or full-time. But because of Scott's previous post, I do feel the need to present the opposite opinion. Sally On Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 11:37 PM, Scott Geiger <scott_geiger wrote: > Hello everyone. > > This post isn't about gluten-free, but it does concern vegans. > > I recently was at Vegetarian Summerfest and I had the pleasure of > hearing James LaVeck (from Tribe of Heart - producers of " The Witness " > and " Peaceable Kingdom) speak about something that has been bothering > me for a VERY long time. He spoke about all this nonsense that has > been going on about " Humanely " raised animal products. Each talk of > his was jammed with people. > > On the day before the Summerfest conference opened, James LaVeck and > Jenny Stein released their new website: http://www.humanemyth.org. > > To keep this short, I will simply say that this website is important > for everyone to read and pass along. > > Regards, > Scott > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 I agree that quality of life always matters. But it's no more acceptable to murder an 87-year-old who's had a long and fulfilling life than it is to murder an abused child... right? Best wishes Alice On 21 Jul 2008, at 08:32, Sally Parrott Ashbrook wrote: > > If a man is murdered at 21 or dies of cancer at 36 or dies in his > sleep at > 87--does his quality of life before he died not matter equally, no > matter > what the circumstances of his death? In my opinion, it absolutely does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Quality of life makes life worth while, in my opinion. I believe that all living creatures deserve to be treated with respect and proper care (although some people are hard to respect) while alive, regardless of where they end up! As a child I started thanking all the food on the table (even plants) for sacrificing their lives so that my family could eat. (My grandmother excused me one thanksgiving because I was asked to say grace and I said out loud what I said everyday quietly.) This is my personal ritual that works for me. In Native American cultures, when hunting, the hunter would ask the spirit of the animal for permission to kill it and would thank it for for sacrificing it's life for the tribe. Somehow our society has reduced animals to inanimate objects that can be kicked and tossed around. I once had a Christian tell me that animals have no souls and can't feel pain. I pinched her cats paw (not enough to hurt but enough to get a reaction) and said explain that! If animals can't feel then why did the cat respond to me pinching her paw? Where in the bible does it say animals have no soul? What sustains life? I personally believe the soul is the life force. I believe in and practice Shamanism and have since I was 14. I believe that everything has a soul, even plants! My family has always told me I was crazy, but I never stopped believing that. I think respect should be given to the foods we consume, regardless of what we choose to consume! Alice, I don't think it's acceptable to murder anyone, at least not in our society. (I think there are still a few cannibal tribes somewhere, not that I'd promote that!) However, I do believe that mercy killings should be legal when the person is terminally ill and only suffering with no chance of ever recovering. We have enough compassion to put our pets down when they reach that point, so why do we insist on making our people suffer? The argument I always here is that the value of a human life is priceless. Most people believe that human live is more valuable than an animals. If a human life is so much more valuable and respectable than and animals life, then why, when it matters most, do we disrespect and torture it? Let the terminally ill who want to die and end the suffering, go out in dignity! They are already dead, and if we truly love them, we would end their suffering! If I'm ever terminally ill and slowly dying in excruciating pain, I would hope that somebody would love me enough and be compassionate enough to help me end my suffering. That's how I see it anyway! Jae On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 12:30 AM, Alice Leonard <alice wrote: > I agree that quality of life always matters. But it's no more > acceptable to murder an 87-year-old who's had a long and fulfilling > life than it is to murder an abused child... right? > Best wishes > Alice > > > On 21 Jul 2008, at 08:32, Sally Parrott Ashbrook wrote: > > > > > If a man is murdered at 21 or dies of cancer at 36 or dies in his > > sleep at > > 87--does his quality of life before he died not matter equally, no > > matter > > what the circumstances of his death? In my opinion, it absolutely does > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 21, 2008 Report Share Posted July 21, 2008 Good point! On 22 Jul 2008, at 00:27, Jae Jones wrote: > Alice, I don't think it's acceptable to murder anyone, at least not > in our > society. (I think there are still a few cannibal tribes somewhere, > not that > I'd promote that!) However, I do believe that mercy killings should > be legal > when the person is terminally ill and only suffering with no chance > of ever > recovering. We have enough compassion to put our pets down when they > reach > that point, so why do we insist on making our people suffe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 I agree whole heartedly with you Alice. Of course quality of life matters, very very much, but it does not make murder ok in any way, shape or form. Monica I agree that quality of life always matters. But it's no more acceptable to murder an 87-year-old who's had a long and fulfilling life than it is to murder an abused child... right? Best wishes Alice If a man is murdered at 21 or dies of cancer at 36 or dies in his sleep at 87--does his quality of life before he died not matter equally, no matter what the circumstances of his death? In my opinion, it absolutely does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 You can take the position that you think no animals should be killed for meat and still support the idea that family farms where animals are raised as intended are far superior to factory farms. I'm not trying (and wouldn't try) to convince anyone that killing the animals is okay. What I'm saying is that believing that animals shouldn't be killed and believing that animals should be raised with good lives instead of in factory farms are not mutually exclusive. Even if your goal is for everyone in the US or the world to be a vegan (which is an entirely worthwhile goal), the lives of animals on farms where they have access to good food, land, air, etc., is important no matter where they end up. So fighting the 'naturally raised' movement by saying there's no validity to it is counter to the goal of having animals live decent lives, whatever the length of those lives may be. That's all I'm saying. On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 3:58 AM, Monica Guy <guygirlz wrote: > I agree whole heartedly with you Alice. Of course quality of life > matters, > very very much, but it does not make murder ok in any way, shape or form. > Monica > > > I agree that quality of life always matters. But it's no more acceptable to > > murder an 87-year-old who's had a long and fulfilling life than it is to > murder an abused child... right? > Best wishes > Alice > > If a man is murdered at 21 or dies of cancer at 36 or dies in his sleep at > 87--does his quality of life before he died not matter equally, no matter > what the circumstances of his death? In my opinion, it absolutely does > > > -- " Or you could be the one who takes the long way home Roll down your window, turn off your phone See your life as a gift from the great unknown And your task is to receive it Tell your kid a story, hold your lover tight Make a joyful noise, swim naked at night Read a poem a day, call in well sometimes, And laugh when they believe it " --MCC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2008 Report Share Posted July 22, 2008 If I was an animal being raised for meat, I would far rather live on a family farm than on a factory farm - no argument with that! But if relatively compassionate people who want to eat meat can buy what they believe to be humanely-raised meat, they're going to keep eating meat for longer. I've put a lot of energy in the last few years into educating people about battery farmed eggs. The general response is, 'Yes, I should eat freerange eggs.' So then (depending on the situation) I need to launch into the explanation about why freerange eggs aren't great either. I now prefer to put my energy into promoting veganism. Cheers! Alice On 23 Jul 2008, at 03:28, Sally Parrott Ashbrook wrote: > You can take the position that you think no animals should be killed > for > meat and still support the idea that family farms where animals are > raised > as intended are far superior to factory farms. I'm not trying (and > wouldn't > try) to convince anyone that killing the animals is okay. What I'm > saying > is that believing that animals shouldn't be killed and believing that > animals should be raised with good lives instead of in factory farms > are not > mutually exclusive. Even if your goal is for everyone in the US or the > world to be a vegan (which is an entirely worthwhile goal), the lives > of > animals on farms where they have access to good food, land, air, > etc., is > important no matter where they end up. So fighting the 'naturally > raised' > movement by saying there's no validity to it is counter to the goal of > having animals live decent lives, whatever the length of those lives > may > be. That's all I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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