intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

[Guest guest]

Hi all.

 

I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

 

Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

impromptu arguments.

So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

this. Thanks.

 

I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

[Guest guest]

arguments against veganism???

ummm..

you have to think

you have to be compassionate

ummmmm...

you can't eat at mcdonalds with all yer "friends"

*rolls eyes*

heck..i dunno...

fraggle

[Guest guest]

It's probably better to go to a meat eaters if you want

arguments against veganism. I don't think there are any good arguments

against veganism to be honest.

 

Also - welcome MintFaery. Congrats on reverting back to veganism. But why

did you become veggie for 2 yrs after being a vegan?

 

And hi John. I haven't said hi to you yet. Glad you're getting some brown

shoes sorted! I just ordered 30 of those beef 'organic snack meals' from

veganstore.co.uk - they should keep me busy for a while! lol.

 

And yay - I visited Jerome Russell's website and found that they don't test

on animals. I'm so relieved as I like Jerome Russell's hair peroxide. :-)

 

<3

Shari Black Velvet

 

www.blackvelvetmagazine.com

 

 

-

" gluin0 " <gluino

 

Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

 

 

> Hi all.

>

> I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

> took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

> choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

> and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

> health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

>

> Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

> it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> impromptu arguments.

> So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

> this. Thanks.

>

> I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

> ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

There are no good arguments against veganism.

 

If you like ice cream - try Sweidsh Glace - it knocks spots off 'normal' ice

cream. It comes in vanilla, strawberry or chocolate flavours and is fairly

low fat, and low cholesterol.

 

Just about anything (other than flesh) that you enjoyed as an omnivore can

be enjoyed as a vegan by substitution. With the use of soya milk, soya

cream etc. you can make almost anything. The only item that we have not

been able to make is a vegan swiss roll, and Yorkshire pudding is not light

and airy as in the omnivore version. So, all in all, no worries.

 

Jo

-

" gluin0 " <gluino

 

Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

 

 

> Hi all.

>

> I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

> took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

> choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

> and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

> health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

>

> Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

> it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> impromptu arguments.

> So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

> this. Thanks.

>

> I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

> ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Fraggle

 

It was supposed to be what was anti-vegan :-) I have never eaten at a McDonalds. The only time I have been in one was to use their loo in an emergency.

 

Jo

 

 

you can't eat at mcdonalds with all yer "friends"*rolls eyes*

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[Guest guest]

> " gluin0 " <gluino

 

Hi " gluin0 "

 

Welcome to - what should we call you?

 

> I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

> ice-cream, and just any food in general.

 

Well, if you're in the UK, I can highly recommend Swedish Glace or Tofutti

as a fantastic Ice Cream replacement - and it's good for you too :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which couldn't

be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating and

abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is something

believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

 

I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument, really, come

to think on it.

 

John

 

-

" gluin0 " <gluino

 

Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

 

 

> Hi all.

>

> I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

> took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

> choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

> and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

> health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

>

> Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

> it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> impromptu arguments.

> So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

> this. Thanks.

>

> I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

> ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 3/12/03 2:35:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, mcxg46 writes:

The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which couldn't

be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating and

abusing them

ah..but see, it sez that humans are suppose to be stewards..doesn't say anything about "abuse"

if you follow the original meaning, it is sorta like you being a steward over yer little brother..now, i know some of you might "abuse" the lil tyke,..but..

[Guest guest]

Well, there are soy and rice ice creams, so there ya go.

 

Hmm...arguments against veganism? you have to be rilly careful to get your

proper nutrition. It's the death of everything pleasurable (yeah, right).

It's not " normal. "

 

OK, I can't really think of one.

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

" gluin0 " <gluino

 

 

intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

Mon, 10 Mar 2003 21:52:07 -0000

 

Hi all.

 

I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

 

Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

impromptu arguments.

So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

this. Thanks.

 

I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

 

 

 

 

" Where is the questioning where is the protest song?

Since when is skepticism un-American?

Dissent's not treason but they talk like it's the same

Those who disagree are afraid to show their face " --Sleater-Kinney

 

_______________

The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*

http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

[Guest guest]

Hi John

 

> The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which couldn't

> be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

> were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating and

> abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is something

> believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

 

I'm sure that others will answer this as well, but you actually can argue

this based on the religious texts used by Christians! It's pretty clear, for

instance, that we are supposed to look after the other animals, and that we

are only allowed to eat them under extreme circumstances - such as when God

decides to wipe everyone out with a flood, Noah is given *special

permission* to eat animals.

 

I know there are several list members who would be happy to cite you a good

few examples from the Bible of us not being supposed to eat animals :-)

 

> I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument, really,

come

> to think on it.

 

Well, there you have a point!!

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't an argument I felt had any weight, just one I

couldn't imagine being able to counter rationally.

 

John

 

-

<EBbrewpunx

 

Wednesday, March 12, 2003 4:34 PM

Re: intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

 

 

> In a message dated 3/12/03 2:35:00 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> mcxg46 writes:

> > The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which

couldn't

> > be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

> > were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating

and

> > abusing them

> ah..but see, it sez that humans are suppose to be stewards..doesn't say

> anything about " abuse "

> if you follow the original meaning, it is sorta like you being a steward

over

> yer little brother..now, i know some of you might " abuse " the lil

> tyke,..but..

>

[Guest guest]

Just a load of rubbish really - they haven't read their bibles properly.

 

Jo

 

 

> The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which couldn't

> be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

> were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating and

> abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is something

> believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

>

> I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument, really,

come

> to think on it.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

John,

 

I'm tempted to say that a lot of religous belief is irrational; I don't

believe anything in religion is based on rational thought. I do believe the

word is " dominion " --humans were given dominion over the animals. This means

that we have the choice to be stewards and protectors of animals or to use

and abuse them as our property. The next time a christian talks about

animals being given the animals, remind him that we were merely given

dominion--and we have the choice whether or not to use our power kindly.

 

Danielle

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

" John Davis " <mcxg46

 

 

Re: intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:27:41 -0000

 

Hi,

 

The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which couldn't

be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating and

abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is something

believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

 

I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument, really, come

to think on it.

 

John

 

-

" gluin0 " <gluino

 

Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

 

 

> Hi all.

>

> I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

> took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

> choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

> and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

> health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

>

> Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

> it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> impromptu arguments.

> So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

> this. Thanks.

>

> I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

> ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Danielle,

 

> The next time a christian talks about

> animals being given the animals, remind him that we were merely given

> dominion--and we have the choice whether or not to use our power kindly.

 

It wasn't actually me who came up against this argument, but a friend. (Mind

you, I reckon a few people I know probably think along the same lines.) I

guess you are right though, that you can discuss different interpretations

of the bible...in the past I'm afraid I've tended just to stop a discussion

when it boils down to religious differences, but perhaps that's just

cowardice on my part.

 

John

 

-

" Danielle Kichler " <veggietart

 

Thursday, March 13, 2003 2:39 AM

Re: intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

 

 

> John,

>

> I'm tempted to say that a lot of religous belief is irrational; I don't

> believe anything in religion is based on rational thought. I do believe

the

> word is " dominion " --humans were given dominion over the animals. This

means

> that we have the choice to be stewards and protectors of animals or to use

> and abuse them as our property. The next time a christian talks about

> animals being given the animals, remind him that we were merely given

> dominion--and we have the choice whether or not to use our power kindly.

>

> Danielle

>

>

> ----Original Message Follows----

> " John Davis " <mcxg46

>

>

> Re: intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

> Wed, 12 Mar 2003 10:27:41 -0000

>

> Hi,

>

> The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which couldn't

> be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that animals

> were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including eating and

> abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is something

> believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

>

> I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument, really,

come

> to think on it.

>

> John

>

> -

> " gluin0 " <gluino

>

> Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

> intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

>

>

> > Hi all.

> >

> > I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It only

> > took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> > change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I have no

> > choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal suffering

> > and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it for

> > health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> > veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

> >

> > Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> > defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have given

> > it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> > impromptu arguments.

> > So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> > veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input on

> > this. Thanks.

> >

> > I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> > good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things like

> > ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> > happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> > absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> > because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi John!

 

<giggle>

 

That Christian must not have read Genesis!

 

nikki

 

, " John Davis " <mcxg46@d...> wrote:

> Hi,

>

> The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which

couldn't

> be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that

animals

> were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including

eating and

> abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is

something

> believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

>

> I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument,

really, come

> to think on it.

>

> John

>

> -

> " gluin0 " <gluino@b...>

>

> Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

> intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

>

>

> > Hi all.

> >

> > I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It

only

> > took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> > change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I

have no

> > choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal

suffering

> > and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it

for

> > health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> > veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

> >

> > Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> > defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have

given

> > it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> > impromptu arguments.

> > So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> > veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input

on

> > this. Thanks.

> >

> > I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> > good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things

like

> > ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> > happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> > absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> > because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

 

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well, how many so-called Christians twist and warp the bible to suit their

own needs and desires? And not just related to what they want to eat, I

might add.

 

Danielle

 

----Original Message Follows----

" nikki_mackovitch " <nikkimack

 

 

Re: intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

Thu, 13 Mar 2003 11:14:17 -0000

 

Hi John!

 

<giggle>

 

That Christian must not have read Genesis!

 

nikki

 

, " John Davis " <mcxg46@d...> wrote:

> Hi,

>

> The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism which

couldn't

> be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said that

animals

> were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted, including

eating and

> abusing them. And there is no way to argue with that as it is

something

> believed in irrationally, rather than based on rational argument.

>

> I wouldn't call it a good argument though. Or even an argument,

really, come

> to think on it.

>

> John

>

> -

> " gluin0 " <gluino@b...>

>

> Monday, March 10, 2003 9:52 PM

> intro and Q: best arguments against veganism?

>

>

> > Hi all.

> >

> > I'm 23, been vegan for 1 month now, previously a meat-eater. It

only

> > took me one evening of reading up online to make the decision to

> > change. It feels like a moral obligation to me, I feel that I

have no

> > choice. For me the 2 main reasons for veganism are animal

suffering

> > and then ecological considerations. Only lastly and thirdly is it

for

> > health considerations, because I think that both meat eaters and

> > veg*'s can eat healthily (or unhealthily).

> >

> > Most of my friends are normal meat eaters. I have a very easy time

> > defending veganism in rational discourse, mostly because I have

given

> > it a lot of thought (and done my research) in comparison to their

> > impromptu arguments.

> > So I have been challenged to find out the best arguments against

> > veganism, and see if veganism holds up. I'll appreciate any input

on

> > this. Thanks.

> >

> > I've always half-jokingly said that I am interested in hearing any

> > good arguments against veganism, because I do like to eat things

like

> > ice-cream, and just any food in general. And that I would only be

> > happy to use animal-products with a clear conscience. But in the

> > absence of valid arguments, I have to stick with veganism for now,

> > because I want my actions to be consistent with my beliefs.

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

 

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi John

 

> It wasn't actually me who came up against this argument, but a friend.

(Mind

> you, I reckon a few people I know probably think along the same lines.) I

> guess you are right though, that you can discuss different interpretations

> of the bible...in the past I'm afraid I've tended just to stop a

discussion

> when it boils down to religious differences, but perhaps that's just

> cowardice on my part.

 

Nah - I don't think it's cowardice. Personally, I find religion fascinating,

so tend to get thoroughly involved in any religious discussion going - but

that's just me. And it wouldn't be the wisest idea to try to have a deep

theological discussion with someone unless you are the sort of person who

likes that sort of thing! :-)

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

It might be worth pointing out to so-called Christians is, in

the beginning of the Book it says " everything with the breath

of life in it should eat the green plants " .

that statement should speak for itself.

Also the eating of animals was alloweds after the fall when

suffering was also allowed,(due to the wrong-doing)in the

first place.

 

What I say to so-called Christians is the origional plan is

the important part and thats the part we should be working

towards. Including helping the carnivore animals to a plant-

diet.

 

SJ

PS some are very stubborn though.

 

 

 

<The only argument I've heard against veganism/vegetarianism

which couldn't

be argued against was from a Christian, who apparently said

that animals

were placed on earth for us to use however we wanted,

including eating and

abusing them>

---

[Guest guest]

Sorry but those are arguments for arent they? doh!

> arguments against veganism???

>ummm..

>you have to think

>you have to be compassionate

>ummmmm...

>you can't eat at mcdonalds with all yer " friends "

>*rolls eyes*

>heck..i dunno...

>fraggle

 

Peter Hurd

 

 

--------------------

talk21 your FREE portable and private address on the net at

http://www.talk21.com

[Guest guest]

Jo,

Personally I wouldnt even give them my urine! I`d much rather p**s on them than

in them! ... bitter and twisted or what!

> Hi Fraggle

>

>It was supposed to be what was anti-vegan :-) I have never eaten at a

McDonalds. The only time I have been in one was to use their loo in an

emergency.

>

>Jo

>

> you can't eat at mcdonalds with all yer " friends "

> *rolls eyes*

>

>

> ---

> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.

> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (<a Target='_new'

Href='http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://www.grisoft.com)'>http:\

//www.grisoft.com)</a>

> Version: 6.0.459 / Virus Database: 258 - Release 25/02/03

 

Peter Hurd

 

 

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