Guest guest Posted May 2, 2003 Report Share Posted May 2, 2003 Hey, I started a honey debate! Thanks for your replies, I learned alot about the honey bee. I will continue to refrain from eating honey. Now another question, is it wrong for pooh bear to raid those honey trees like he often does? I mean it wasn't meant for him, but he's a bear, and bears love honey! (I am kidding, no need to answer ) Siobhan The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 Hi, I'm a bit late to this discussion I know, but... I was actually talking to a friend who keeps bees at the weekend. Who raised the point that whilst he does clip the queen's wings, by so doing he increased her and the hive's chances of survival, for very few bees survive in the wild, and those that do are generally less healthy than those cared for by keepers. Something like keeping a dog on a leash in the park. Now as a vegan I don't eat honey, but in the case of bees, it is more from a personal desire not to want to consume anything made by animals, than from a belief that the bees necessarily suffer from being kept. Now whether it is right to hold an animal captive even if it is apparently better for them is of course another matter. But as I keep pets, I guess I cannot really condemn another for keeping bees. John Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 Yes, However, dogs are domesticated, while most bees are not. As bold as this may seem, I was taught a long time ago not to interfere with nature. Everything that lives, must eventually die. Of course it's different for domesticated animals, people, and certain situations like endangered species, but sometimes I wonder if it's really okay to preserve all animals. When they die, it's nature's way of population control.---Please don't get me wrong. Life is definitely precious. It's just that, death is going to happen. People shouldn't post-pone it for their own satisfaction. *This message was brought to you by: Amy >"John Davis" > > >Re: honey debate >Wed, 7 May 2003 12:54:05 +0100 > >Hi, > >I'm a bit late to this discussion I know, but... > >I was actually talking to a friend who keeps bees at the weekend. Who raised >the point that whilst he does clip the queen's wings, by so doing he >increased her and the hive's chances of survival, for very few bees survive >in the wild, and those that do are generally less healthy than those cared >for by keepers. Something like keeping a dog on a leash in the park. > >Now as a vegan I don't eat honey, but in the case of bees, it is more from a >personal desire not to want to consume anything made by animals, than from a >belief that the bees necessarily suffer from being kept. Now whether it is >right to hold an animal captive even if it is apparently better for them is >of course another matter. But as I keep pets, I guess I cannot really >condemn another for keeping bees. > >John > > Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2003 Report Share Posted May 8, 2003 Hi, I think you've raised two awkward issues there, or at least, ones I find awkward when I've considered them in the past. The first is making a distinction between domestic and wild animals. To say we should preserve domestic ones and not necessarily wild ones is kind of an 'easy out'. And I do it myself every time I fed a pet meat, or killed a wasp's nest in my yard when they were stinging my (allergic to wasp sting) dogs. But it could be argued that we are responsible for all animals whose lives we interfere with, not just domestic ones. If we strip away an animal's natural habitat so that it can no longer survive in the wild, do we then have a responsibility for ensuring its survival? The second is when you say death is going to happen, and we shouldn't post-pone it for our own satisfaction. At one end of the scale - say, keeping a pet alive when it is clearly in pain and suffering, because you cannot bear to part with it - I'd agree. But on the other end of that scale is the idea that if death is going to happen anyway, why not kill the animal yourself and eat it? I'm sure you didn't mean to imply that, but it might be taken as a natural conclusion of the point. John - " Amylia F " <amylia_21 Wednesday, May 07, 2003 6:55 PM Re: honey debate > > > > > Yes, > > However, dogs are domesticated, while most bees are not. As bold as this may seem, I was taught a long time ago not to interfere with nature. Everything that lives, must eventually die. Of course it's different for domesticated animals, people, and certain situations like endangered species, but sometimes I wonder if it's really okay to preserve all animals. When they die, it's nature's way of population control.---Please don't get me wrong. Life is definitely precious. It's just that, death is going to happen. People shouldn't post-pone it for their own satisfaction. > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > " John Davis " > > > >To: > >Re: honey debate > >Wed, 7 May 2003 12:54:05 +0100 > > > >Hi, > > > >I'm a bit late to this discussion I know, but... > > > >I was actually talking to a friend who keeps bees at the weekend. Who raised > >the point that whilst he does clip the queen's wings, by so doing he > >increased her and the hive's chances of survival, for very few bees survive > >in the wild, and those that do are generally less healthy than those cared > >for by keepers. Something like keeping a dog on a leash in the park. > > > >Now as a vegan I don't eat honey, but in the case of bees, it is more from a > >personal desire not to want to consume anything made by animals, than from a > >belief that the bees necessarily suffer from being kept. Now whether it is > >right to hold an animal captive even if it is apparently better for them is > >of course another matter. But as I keep pets, I guess I cannot really > >condemn another for keeping bees. > > > >John > > > > > > > -------- ------ > Protect your PC - Click here for McAfee.com VirusScan Online > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 The question might be - do you own your pets to make money from them, or to love and care for them without making money? Jo .. But as I keep pets, I guess I cannot really > condemn another for keeping bees. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Hi, Why do I own pets? Well, I could say to care for them and give them a better life than (the brief one) they'd have had in a shelter. But in truth, I also keep pets because I enjoy their affection. In which case, keeping a couple of hives for honey (with the queen's wings clipped), and keeping pets for their affection (with my dogs on a lead, and my cats chipped), don't seem to be worlds apart. John - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Saturday, May 10, 2003 7:11 PM Re: honey debate > The question might be - do you own your pets to make money from them, or to > love and care for them without making money? > > Jo > . But as I keep pets, I guess I cannot really > > condemn another for keeping bees. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 I would disagree. You give a home to your dogs/cats because you love them. It costs you money to look after them and you do not make money out of owning them. Your only reason for having them is that you love them. If you have a bee hive, you may well love the bees(?) but you do not own the hive just to love and look after the bees. The main reason is that you make money out of the hive. Jo > Why do I own pets? Well, I could say to care for them and give them a better > life than (the brief one) they'd have had in a shelter. But in truth, I also > keep pets because I enjoy their affection. In which case, keeping a couple > of hives for honey (with the queen's wings clipped), and keeping pets for > their affection (with my dogs on a lead, and my cats chipped), don't seem to > be worlds apart. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Hi Joe, Well, yours is certainly a more pleasant way to look at my owning my pets! I just try and be careful of criticising others for keeping animals for their own benefit, when, if I look at it critically, I am still keeping pets because I want to. It just so happens that this is also, I think, providing them with the best possible life. John - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Monday, May 12, 2003 7:36 PM Re: honey debate > I would disagree. You give a home to your dogs/cats because you love them. > It costs you money to look after them and you do not make money out of > owning them. Your only reason for having them is that you love them. > > If you have a bee hive, you may well love the bees(?) but you do not own the > hive just to love and look after the bees. The main reason is that you make > money out of the hive. > > Jo > > > > Why do I own pets? Well, I could say to care for them and give them a > better > > life than (the brief one) they'd have had in a shelter. But in truth, I > also > > keep pets because I enjoy their affection. In which case, keeping a couple > > of hives for honey (with the queen's wings clipped), and keeping pets for > > their affection (with my dogs on a lead, and my cats chipped), don't seem > to > > be worlds apart. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 14, 2003 Report Share Posted May 14, 2003 John I do agree with you. I have a budgie because I like having a budgie to love. Ethically, I support the idea that animals should not be bred for pets, and think that there should be legislation against it. Until that happens I will most likely have a budgie to love, and it's going to have a happy home. Incidentally, budgies have an average lifespan of two years in the wild, and an average of 8 in domesticity. We were not born to live in houses, you know. We should actually live in caves or whatever we can find that is natural.... but we have come to feel comfortable in our houses, with heating and soft furnishings. I think maybe dogs, cats, budgies etc. have come to feel the same, don't you? :-) Jo > Well, yours is certainly a more pleasant way to look at my owning my pets! I > just try and be careful of criticising others for keeping animals for their > own benefit, when, if I look at it critically, I am still keeping pets > because I want to. It just so happens that this is also, I think, providing > them with the best possible life. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 15, 2003 Report Share Posted May 15, 2003 Hi Jo, > We were not born to live in houses, you know. We should actually live in > caves or whatever we can find that is natural.... but we have come to feel > comfortable in our houses, with heating and soft furnishings. I think maybe > dogs, cats, budgies etc. have come to feel the same, don't you? :-) I hope so. And certainly persuading my dog off its cushion in front of the radiator to go for a walk is often a hard task! John - " Heartwork " <Heartwork Wednesday, May 14, 2003 9:19 PM Re: honey debate > John > > I do agree with you. I have a budgie because I like having a budgie to > love. Ethically, I support the idea that animals should not be bred for > pets, and think that there should be legislation against it. Until that > happens I will most likely have a budgie to love, and it's going to have a > happy home. Incidentally, budgies have an average lifespan of two years in > the wild, and an average of 8 in domesticity. > > We were not born to live in houses, you know. We should actually live in > caves or whatever we can find that is natural.... but we have come to feel > comfortable in our houses, with heating and soft furnishings. I think maybe > dogs, cats, budgies etc. have come to feel the same, don't you? :-) > > Jo > > > Well, yours is certainly a more pleasant way to look at my owning my pets! > I > > just try and be careful of criticising others for keeping animals for > their > > own benefit, when, if I look at it critically, I am still keeping pets > > because I want to. It just so happens that this is also, I think, > providing > > them with the best possible life. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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