Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Jani, I know that by now, many people have responded to your reply, but now I want to as well. Yes, many Christians do say that it's okay to eat animals. There's a reason why. In the beginning, in Genesis 2:15, Adam, (with Eve as his helper who's later mentioned), was placed in the Garden of Eden to care and tend for it. (Keep in mind the Garden of Eden included not only the trees and plants, but all kinds of animals, as well.) As a matter of fact, Adam was in charge of giving all the animals names. (It would seem as if all the animals were the equivalent of today's cat or dog.) That was the original plan.---To care and tend for all life, and be in the presence of God. But, as the story goes, things don't work out for Adam and Eve. By chapter 3:21, God clothes Adam and Eve with garments made from animal skins, and they leave the Garden. So centuries before Noah was even born, animals were already being killed.---Thus, the animal skins. Also, ever heard of the story about Cain and Abel? Well, they were Adam and Eve's first two sons. Anyway, by the time those two boys came along, people were making sacrifices to God...animal sacrifices. (See Genesis 4:3-4) Farming still existed, but by this time, it's pretty safe to say people were already eating meat. Now, it wasn't officially documented in the Bible, (to my knowledge), of actual permission to eat meat, until Noah came along. Genesis 9:2-4, God tells Noah that the animals will now be afraid of people, and that they are to be used for food, in addition to grain and vegetables. But, in any case, for these reasons, (and even more), it's rare to find a Christian vegetarian/vegan. They can justify it. It's not considered unChrist-like, or anything. However, as somebody already mentioned, I think it's good to live life the way it was intended to be lived; as in the Garden of Eden ----(Except for that whole "walking around naked"-thing. I'm glad we have clothes now.) *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > > >Re: Would you? Could you? Should you? >Mon, 5 May 2003 08:01:17 +0100 > >Amylia, > I'm not a Christian so maybe I'm missing the point. But the argument that I get from Christians supporting meat eating is that the big-man upstairs put animals on the earth for humans use (inc eating). Is there a passage in the bible that explicitly states this, or, is it down to subjective interpretation? Is it that this passage only refers to seeds because 'he' hadn't got around to creating other animals yet? Sorry for asking possibly v. naive questions, but I want to be fully prepared for my next 'lively debate' with my brother who happens to be a Christian meat-eater (interesting how siblings can be so different). >I'll certainly look at the web-site you suggested, > >Many thanks > >;-) Jani > - > Amylia F > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:03 PM > Re: Would you? Could you? > > > Jani, > > Without getting too religious on you, I guess I just keep thinking of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. I know religion is seen as a philosophy itself, but in the Bible Genesis 1:29-30 God tells Adam and Eve that He has given them all the seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees for food. And the birds and animals get all the grass and plants for their food.---Like I said, I'm NOT trying to preach, just wanted you to know where I was coming from. (I just wish I liked fruit more. Apples, bananas, and grapes are okay, but everything else, ....yuck!) Now, as I write this, I'm thinking something: I've seen carrot seeds in the store, but when I eat a carrot, there's no seed inside, like apples, or oranges. How is this possible? I don't understand. > > > > > > > > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > >> > > >> >Re: Would you? Could you? > >Sat, 3 May 2003 17:34:23 +0100 > > > >Well Amy, I do remember seeing a 'Tales of the Unexpected' story where a man chopping down a tree could hear it screaming - I think it drove him bonkers. Actually that's the only thing I remember about the episode, so if anyone knows the rest, perhaps they could enlighten us! > >Perhaps the dilemmas that you've highlighted could explain raw food eaters. Or is that a different philosophy altogether? > > > >Jani > > > >P.S. There was another story about a bee-keeper - I can't remember much about that either!!! > > - > > Amylia F > > > > Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:57 PM > > Would you? Could you? > > > > > > I just finished reading all the postings on "honey." See, that's why I love you guys. You always have something thought-provoking to say, and I just eat it up. (Yum!) And now, I've already asked a similar question to this but, would you, or could you become a fruitarian? I heard about them 7 years ago. I found their official website, but haven't had the hours to go through it. I'm attracted to them, because it just seems so "pure." (I've even heard they refuse to pick fruit off trees, but instead wait for it to fall to the ground----that way it's no longer connected to the source of life, the tree. Once it's on the ground, it's a product of the tree.---See the difference?) Like I said, it seems pure, because there are people that believe eating carrots is murder. ---Why? Because they are pulled out from under the ground, thus ending their life, un like apples which are a product of the tree, not the tree itself. And another thing, I did once have this guy tell me that eating vegetables hurts plants. I know plants do not have a face, but do they have feelings? --Well, I feel funny just asking that question. But does anyone feel they are "killing" plants at all? Or maybe choosing the lesser of two evils by eating plants instead of animals?---Just wondering... > > > > > > > > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > > > > > > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, production methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' " Vegan. " Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Amylia F " <amylia_21 Adam and Eve, and thereafter Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 _______________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Jani, I know that by now, many people have responded to your reply, but now I want to as well. Yes, many Christians do say that it's okay to eat animals. There's a reason why. In the beginning, in Genesis 2:15, Adam, (with Eve as his helper who's later mentioned), was placed in the Garden of Eden to care and tend for it. (Keep in mind the Garden of Eden included not only the trees and plants, but all kinds of animals, as well.) As a matter of fact, Adam was in charge of giving all the animals names. (It would seem as if all the animals were the equivalent of today's cat or dog.) That was the original plan.---To care and tend for all life, and be in the presence of God. But, as the story goes, things don't work out for Adam and Eve. By chapter 3:21, God clothes Adam and Eve with garments made from animal skins, and they leave the Garden. So centuries before Noah was even born, animals were already being killed.---Thus, the animal skins. Also, ever heard of the story about Cain and Abel? Well, they were Adam and Eve's first two sons. Anyway, by the time those two boys came along, people were making sacrifices to God...animal sacrifices. (See Genesis 4:3-4) Farming still existed, but by this time, it's pretty safe to say people were already eating meat. Now, it wasn't officially documented in the Bible, (to my knowledge), of actual permission to eat meat, until Noah came along. Genesis 9:2-4, God tells Noah that the animals will now be afraid of people, and that they are to be used for food, in addition to grain and vegetables. But, in any case, for these reasons, (and even more), it's rare to find a Christian vegetarian/vegan. They can justify it. It's not considered unChrist-like, or anything. However, as somebody already mentioned, I think it's good to live life the way it was intended to be lived; as in the Garden of Eden ----(Except for that whole "walking around naked"-thing. I'm glad we have clothes now.) *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > > >Re: Would you? Could you? Should you? >Mon, 5 May 2003 08:01:17 +0100 > >Amylia, > I'm not a Christian so maybe I'm missing the point. But the argument that I get from Christians supporting meat eating is that the big-man upstairs put animals on the earth for humans use (inc eating). Is there a passage in the bible that explicitly states this, or, is it down to subjective interpretation? Is it that this passage only refers to seeds because 'he' hadn't got around to creating other animals yet? Sorry for asking possibly v. naive questions, but I want to be fully prepared for my next 'lively debate' with my brother who happens to be a Christian meat-eater (interesting how siblings can be so different). >I'll certainly look at the web-site you suggested, > >Many thanks > >;-) Jani > - > Amylia F > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:03 PM > Re: Would you? Could you? > > > Jani, > > Without getting too religious on you, I guess I just keep thinking of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. I know religion is seen as a philosophy itself, but in the Bible Genesis 1:29-30 God tells Adam and Eve that He has given them all the seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees for food. And the birds and animals get all the grass and plants for their food.---Like I said, I'm NOT trying to preach, just wanted you to know where I was coming from. (I just wish I liked fruit more. Apples, bananas, and grapes are okay, but everything else, ....yuck!) Now, as I write this, I'm thinking something: I've seen carrot seeds in the store, but when I eat a carrot, there's no seed inside, like apples, or oranges. How is this possible? I don't understand. > > > > > > > > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > >> > > >> >Re: Would you? Could you? > >Sat, 3 May 2003 17:34:23 +0100 > > > >Well Amy, I do remember seeing a 'Tales of the Unexpected' story where a man chopping down a tree could hear it screaming - I think it drove him bonkers. Actually that's the only thing I remember about the episode, so if anyone knows the rest, perhaps they could enlighten us! > >Perhaps the dilemmas that you've highlighted could explain raw food eaters. Or is that a different philosophy altogether? > > > >Jani > > > >P.S. There was another story about a bee-keeper - I can't remember much about that either!!! > > - > > Amylia F > > > > Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:57 PM > > Would you? Could you? > > > > > > I just finished reading all the postings on "honey." See, that's why I love you guys. You always have something thought-provoking to say, and I just eat it up. (Yum!) And now, I've already asked a similar question to this but, would you, or could you become a fruitarian? I heard about them 7 years ago. I found their official website, but haven't had the hours to go through it. I'm attracted to them, because it just seems so "pure." (I've even heard they refuse to pick fruit off trees, but instead wait for it to fall to the ground----that way it's no longer connected to the source of life, the tree. Once it's on the ground, it's a product of the tree.---See the difference?) Like I said, it seems pure, because there are people that believe eating carrots is murder. ---Why? Because they are pulled out from under the ground, thus ending their life, un like apples which are a product of the tree, not the tree itself. And another thing, I did once have this guy tell me that eating vegetables hurts plants. I know plants do not have a face, but do they have feelings? --Well, I feel funny just asking that question. But does anyone feel they are "killing" plants at all? Or maybe choosing the lesser of two evils by eating plants instead of animals?---Just wondering... > > > > > > > > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > > > > > > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > >Tom >- >"Danielle Kichler" > >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, >production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > "Vegan." > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Catharine/anyone else Do you know any vegan-pagan sites where messages appear more than once in a blue moon? Ta, Jani - Catherine Harris Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:11 PM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > >Tom >- >"Danielle Kichler" > >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, >production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > "Vegan." > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 Oh, Amylia thank you very much. This has all been a lot more interesting then what I was meant to be doing on May Day (i.e. deciphering transcripts). I've learnt so much. Unfortunately Freya, my floozy, cat did not had such a good day. She's been chasing the neighbour's cat round all day, in hope of becoming hand/paw fastened, she failed. Looks like she's going to be a lonely old spinster after all. ;-) Jani - Amylia F Tuesday, May 06, 2003 7:51 AM Adam and Eve, and thereafter Jani, I know that by now, many people have responded to your reply, but now I want to as well. Yes, many Christians do say that it's okay to eat animals. There's a reason why. In the beginning, in Genesis 2:15, Adam, (with Eve as his helper who's later mentioned), was placed in the Garden of Eden to care and tend for it. (Keep in mind the Garden of Eden included not only the trees and plants, but all kinds of animals, as well.) As a matter of fact, Adam was in charge of giving all the animals names. (It would seem as if all the animals were the equivalent of today's cat or dog.) That was the original plan.---To care and tend for all life, and be in the presence of God. But, as the story goes, things don't work out for Adam and Eve. By chapter 3:21, God clothes Adam and Eve with garments made from animal skins, and they leave the Garden. So centuries before Noah was even born, animals were already being killed. ---Thus, the animal skins. Also, ever heard of the story about Cain and Abel? Well, they were Adam and Eve's first two sons. Anyway, by the time those two boys came along, people were making sacrifices to God...animal sacrifices. (See Genesis 4:3-4) Farming still existed, but by this time, it's pretty safe to say people were already eating meat. Now, it wasn't officially documented in the Bible, (to my knowledge), of actual permission to eat meat, until Noah came along. Genesis 9:2-4, God tells Noah that the animals will now be afraid of people, and that they are to be used for food, in addition to grain and vegetables. But, in any case, for these reasons, (and even more), it's rare to find a Christian vegetarian/vegan. They can justify it. It's not considered unChrist-like, or anything. However, as somebody already mentioned, I think it's good to live life the way it was intended to be lived; as in the Garden of Eden ----(Except for that whole "wal king around naked"-thing. I'm glad we have clothes now.) *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > > >Re: Would you? Could you? Should you? >Mon, 5 May 2003 08:01:17 +0100 > >Amylia, > I'm not a Christian so maybe I'm missing the point. But the argument that I get from Christians supporting meat eating is that the big-man upstairs put animals on the earth for humans use (inc eating). Is there a passage in the bible that explicitly states this, or, is it down to subjective interpretation? Is it that this passage only refers to seeds because 'he' hadn't got around to creating other animals yet? Sorry for asking possibly v. naive questions, but I want to be fully prepared for my next 'lively debate' with my brother who happens to be a Christian meat-eater (interesting how siblings can be so different). >I'll certainly look at the web-site you suggested, > >Many thanks > >;-) Jani > - > Amylia F > > Sunday, May 04, 2003 6:03 PM > Re: Would you? Could you? > > > Jani, > > Without getting too religious on you, I guess I just keep thinking of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. I know religion is seen as a philosophy itself, but in the Bible Genesis 1:29-30 God tells Adam and Eve that He has given them all the seed-bearing plants, and fruit trees for food. And the birds and animals get all the grass and plants for their food.---Like I said, I'm NOT trying to preach, just wanted you to know where I was coming from. (I just wish I liked fruit more. Apples, bananas, and grapes are okay, but everything else, ....yuck!) Now, as I write this, I'm thinking something: I've seen carrot seeds in the store, but when I eat a carrot, there's no seed inside, like apples, or oranges. How is this possible? I don't understand. > > > > > > > > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > >> > > >> >Re: Would you? Could you? > >Sat, 3 May 2003 17:34:23 +0100 > > > >Well Amy, I do remember seeing a 'Tales of the Unexpected' story where a man chopping down a tree could hear it screaming - I think it drove him bonkers. Actually that's the only thing I remember about the episode, so if anyone knows the rest, perhaps they could enlighten us! > >Perhaps the dilemmas that you've highlighted could explain raw food eaters. Or is that a different philosophy altogether? > > > >Jani > > > >P.S. There was another story about a bee-keeper - I can't remember much about that either!!! > > - > > Amylia F > > > > Saturday, May 03, 2003 4:57 PM > > Would you? Could you? > > > > > > I just finished reading all the postings on "honey." See, that's why I love you guys. You always have something thought-provoking to say, and I just eat it up. (Yum!) And now, I've already asked a similar question to this but, would you, or could you become a fruitarian? I heard about them 7 years ago. I found their official website, but haven't had the hours to go through it. I'm attracted to them, because it just seems so "pure." (I've even heard they refuse to pick fruit off trees, but instead wait for it to fall to the ground----that way it's no longer connected to the source of life, the tree. Once it's on the ground, it's a product of the tree.---See the difference?) Like I said, it seems pure, because there are people that believe eating carrots is murder. ---Why? Because they are pulled out from under the ground, thus ending their life, un like apples which are a product of the tree, not the tree itself. And another thing, I did once have this guy tell me that eating vegetables hurts plants. I know plants do not have a face, but do they have feelings? --Well, I feel funny just asking that question. But does anyone feel they are "killing" plants at all? Or maybe choosing the lesser of two evils by eating plants instead of animals?---Just wondering... > > > > > > > > *This message was brought to you by: Amy > > > > > > > > The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 I love the belly button question. Very nice. Sarah --- Vegecentric <vegecentric wrote: > Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the > world? I mean, even if Cain > and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that > wouldn't have gone anywhere, > or did they have a sister we don't know about, which > means we're all inbred > offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that > explains why the human race is > so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam > and/or Eve have belly > buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > > Tom > - > " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart > > Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM > Re: Adam and Eve, and > thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised > for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden > stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he > raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population > of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food > increasing as well, > production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, > according to Erik Marcus' > > " Vegan. " > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an > earthquake " --Jeanette > Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > " Amylia F " <amylia_21 > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 > months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to > - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 In a message dated 5/6/03 6:17:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cait2 writes: i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... and..there are folks outside of the garden of eden...when they get booted, there are already folks out there.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 hi jani, sorry i dont know of any pagan sites..................i am too much a coward so far.......because i dont know what sites google will come up with if i type pagan in........ good luck catherine > > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 15:09:09 +0100 > >Catharine/anyone else > >Do you know any vegan-pagan sites where messages appear more than once in a blue moon? > >Ta, Jani > - > Catherine Harris > > Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:11 PM > Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... > > catherine > > > > >"Vegecentric" > > > >> >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > > > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain > >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, > >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred > >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is > >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly > >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > > > >Tom > >- > >"Danielle Kichler" > >> >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, > >production > > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > > "Vegan." > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette > >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 6, 2003 Report Share Posted May 6, 2003 there are a ton of vegan chat sites fer pagans out there... here are a couple... pagan_vegetarians/ Pythagorean/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 There are so many places where religious dogma just collapses. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly buttons? And if they did, why or how?? Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, production > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > " Vegan. " > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Amylia F " <amylia_21 > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > _______________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 Yeah, but Lilith is utterly ignored by mainstream religion--she's completely disregarded because she had the gall to suggest that she was equal to Adam. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Catherine Harris " <cait2 Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter Tue, 06 May 2003 13:11:30 +0000 _______________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > >Tom >- >"Danielle Kichler" > >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, >production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > "Vegan." > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly buttons? And if they did, why or how?? Tom - " Danielle Kichler " <veggietart Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, production > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > " Vegan. " > > Danielle > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > " Amylia F " <amylia_21 > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > _______________ > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 He wasn't a bigamist. I think Lilith was banished or something for her gall, and god or whoever gave him Eve, a far more docile wife. Lilith is a charter member of The First Wives Club. Danielle " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin ----Original Message Follows---- " Vegecentric " <vegecentric Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter Wed, 7 May 2003 20:38:05 -0700 Well, I never learned that from the nuns in religious instruction, but who would have guessed Adam was the first bigamist?! Tom - Catherine Harris Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:11 AM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... catherine > " Vegecentric " > >To: >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > >Tom >- > " Danielle Kichler " >To: >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, >production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > " Vegan. " > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > " You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > " Amylia F " > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 In a message dated 5/7/03 11:20:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, amylia_21 writes: I have never heard of another wife of Adam's named Lillith. Please, tell me what source this information came from. in the jewish tradition, lilith was the first wife of adam... it part of the talmud, and was expunged from early copies of the Bible... in tradtion, she was made at the same time as adam, or around the same time..in one myth, adam and her were linked as twins... she demanded equality from adam, and when he refused, she left according to some muslim tradition, when she bailed on adam, she slept with satan, creating the djinn(genies) there are sorts of myths pertaining to her, how she was the embodiment of early agricultural tribes resisting the onslaught of nomadic tribes of herdsmen in a ahem, less then nc 17 rated version of the story, adam was tired of, umm..coupling with herd animals(hey, it was apparantly pretty common back then..where do you think the whole story of greeks and sheep comes from?0..and he ran into lilith..when he attempted to push her down with him on top, she got mad and left him(she didn't want to be dominated) hey..i couldn't make this stuff up!! she is mentioned alot in the kabbalah tradition(mystic arm of judaism) she is linked with sumerian goddess Belili and a host of others of that period cheers fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 I have never heard of another wife of Adam's named Lillith. Please, tell me what source this information came from. *This message was brought to you by: Amy >"Danielle Kichler" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Wed, 07 May 2003 07:40:17 -0400 > >He wasn't a bigamist. I think Lilith was banished or something for her >gall, and god or whoever gave him Eve, a far more docile wife. Lilith is a >charter member of The First Wives Club. > >Danielle > > > >"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette Rankin > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Wed, 7 May 2003 20:38:05 -0700 > >Well, I never learned that from the nuns in religious instruction, but who >would have guessed Adam was the first bigamist?! > >Tom > - > Catherine Harris > > Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:11 AM > Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam >had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called >lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... > > catherine > > > > >"Vegecentric" > > > >> >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > > > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if >Cain > >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone >anywhere, > >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all >inbred > >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human >race is > >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have >belly > >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > > > >Tom > >- > >"Danielle Kichler" > >> >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not >crammed > > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart >farmer > > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the >other > > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of >the > > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, > >production > > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik >Marcus' > > > "Vegan." > > > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette > >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > > > > To send an email to >- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2003 Report Share Posted May 7, 2003 hi danielle, thats why she appeals to me.......lillith..... catherine >"Danielle Kichler" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 06 May 2003 21:26:49 -0400 > >Yeah, but Lilith is utterly ignored by mainstream religion--she's completely >disregarded because she had the gall to suggest that she was equal to Adam. > >Danielle > > > >"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette Rankin > > > > > >----Original Message Follows---- >"Catherine Harris" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 06 May 2003 13:11:30 +0000 > >_______________ >Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. >http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ><< message5.txt >> It's fast, it's easy and it's free! Click here to download MSN Messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2003 Report Share Posted May 8, 2003 Well, I never learned that from the nuns in religious instruction, but who would have guessed Adam was the first bigamist?! Tom - Catherine Harris Tuesday, May 06, 2003 6:11 AM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > >Tom >- >"Danielle Kichler" > >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, >production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > "Vegan." > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Hi Jani > Do you know any vegan-pagan sites where messages appear more than once in a blue moon? I only ever found one such site, and got kicked off when I had an argument with the moderator - basically they didn't want people discussing animal welfare on their list (I mean, it was vegan / pagan - what else are you supposed to discuss!!!). But I've not found any others specifically vegan / pagan at all. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Hi Jani I've tried some veganPagan lists but have not liked any. If I come across any good ones I'll let you know. Jo - janewwt Tuesday, May 06, 2003 3:09 PM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter Catharine/anyone else Do you know any vegan-pagan sites where messages appear more than once in a blue moon? Ta, Jani - Catherine Harris Tuesday, May 06, 2003 2:11 PM Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter i cant believe i am getting into this, as i am a pagan...........but Adam had two wives according to jewish scripture, his first wife was called lillith and was a feisty woman by all accounts.... catherine >"Vegecentric" > > >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter >Tue, 6 May 2003 23:05:11 -0700 > >Two questions: how did Adam and Eve populate the world? I mean, even if Cain >and Abel were gay and into brotherly love, that wouldn't have gone anywhere, >or did they have a sister we don't know about, which means we're all inbred >offspring of incestuous liaisons...maybe that explains why the human race is >so f***** up! Also, a more pressing issue, did Adam and/or Eve have belly >buttons? And if they did, why or how?? > >Tom >- >"Danielle Kichler" > >Tuesday, May 06, 2003 4:49 AM >Re: Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > > > Well, until the past 50-60 years, animals raised for food were not crammed > > into concrete and dirt sheds, wire cages, wooden stalls--a smart farmer > > would adapt conditions to suit the animals he raised rather than the other > > way around, as it is today. With the population of the world--and of the > > US--growing steadily, and the demand for food increasing as well, >production > > methods change, and sadly for the worse. This, according to Erik Marcus' > > "Vegan." > > > > Danielle > > > > > > > > "You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette >Rankin > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > "Amylia F" > > > > > > Adam and Eve, and thereafter > > Mon, 05 May 2003 23:51:58 -0700 > > > > > > > > _______________ > > MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 It might be a good question if it could be answered but I don't think it is mentioned in the Bible, and therefore irrelevant and unanswerable. Jo > I love the belly button question. Very nice. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 It's okay - be brave. There are about three thousand and I haven't come across any embarrassing ones. Jo sorry i dont know of any pagan sites..................i am too much a coward so far.......because i dont know what sites google will come up with if i type pagan in........ ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 That's right - referred to as the 'other people' I believe. Jo and..there are folks outside of the garden of eden...when they get booted, there are already folks out there.. ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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