Guest guest Posted May 10, 2003 Report Share Posted May 10, 2003 Peter, Good to have you back.---Could you please explain a bit of more about how Druids are more Christian-based now? Thank you. *This message was brought to you by: Amy >"Peter" > > >Re: all this god stuff............ >Sat, 10 May 2003 17:20:23 +0100 > >Hi Tom > > > Religion is merely an expression of and justification for the prevailing culture. If males dominate, god is male. If society is more > > matriarchal, god is female. Don't forget also that many pagans, such as the Druids were into bloody sacrifices and the like. > >That was, of course, 2000 years ago when most cultures were into bloody sacrifices. Society has moved on a bit, and I don't know of any Druids nowadays who would indulge in that sort of thing (and I know quite a few Druids!) Also, of course, it's important to remember that not all modern Druids are Pagan - a large number are Christian (in fact, of the 119 Druidic organisations I am aware of, over half have a Christian based faith). This is largely a result of the fact that the 18th century revivalists were all Christians, and it is only in the past 40 years that any Druidic groups have begun to merge aspects of Wicca and other neo-Pagan beliefs with their form of nature based Christianity. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Hi Amylia > Good to have you back.---Could you please explain a bit of more about how Druids are more Christian-based now? Well, the best "example" is Rowan Williams who was initiated as a Druid a couple of weeks before being inaugurated as the Archbishop of Canterbury. Historically, ADUB (An Druidh Uileach Brathraches), the first revivalist Druid organisation, was founded by Christians - John Toland (their 1st chosen chief) was a Christian who was very much anti-church, and I think his view of Druidry was as a Christian organisation which did not fall into the trap of what he called Priestcraft. The 2nd chosen chief (William Stukeley) was a C of E minister. Most modern Druid organisations are offshoots of ADUB in one way or another. I think the "change" to a less Christian outlook may have been partly the influence of Gerald Gardner, who was a Druid, and also the founder of Gardnerian Wicca - he was very influential in a number of ways, and I suspect that he first started to introduce some Wiccan & occult ideas into Druidry. But the main change of focus came about with the formation of OBOD in the 1960s - this was a group of Druids who didn't like the fact that only 3 of the solar festivals were celebrated - OBOD incorporated all 8 ancient pagan festivals, and brought in a lot of Wiccan material. From that group you've got a real change in focus, and now the largest groups - OBOD, BDO (now the Druid Network), and several of the US based organisations - have followed that lead - but there are still a lot who follow Toland's original outline. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Hmmm.... I guess a better question would be, what is a Christian, by these people's definition?---And why would they couple Druidry with Christianity? *This message was brought to you by: Amy >"Peter" > > >Re: The Druids >Sun, 11 May 2003 11:02:35 +0100 > >Hi Amylia > > > Good to have you back.---Could you please explain a bit of more about how Druids are more Christian-based now? > >Well, the best "example" is Rowan Williams who was initiated as a Druid a couple of weeks before being inaugurated as the Archbishop of Canterbury. > >Historically, ADUB (An Druidh Uileach Brathraches), the first revivalist Druid organisation, was founded by Christians - John Toland (their 1st chosen chief) was a Christian who was very much anti-church, and I think his view of Druidry was as a Christian organisation which did not fall into the trap of what he called Priestcraft. The 2nd chosen chief (William Stukeley) was a C of E minister. Most modern Druid organisations are offshoots of ADUB in one way or another. > >I think the "change" to a less Christian outlook may have been partly the influence of Gerald Gardner, who was a Druid, and also the founder of Gardnerian Wicca - he was very influential in a number of ways, and I suspect that he first started to introduce some Wiccan & occult ideas into Druidry. But the main change of focus came about with the formation of OBOD in the 1960s - this was a group of Druids who didn't like the fact that only 3 of the solar festivals were celebrated - OBOD incorporated all 8 ancient pagan festivals, and brought in a lot of Wiccan material. From that group you've got a real change in focus, and now the largest groups - OBOD, BDO (now the Druid Network), and several of the US based organisations - have followed that lead - but there are still a lot who follow Toland's original outline. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Druidry is not a religion in itself. It is a way of living that can include a religion i.e. Paganism, Christianity etc. Jo - Amylia F Sunday, May 11, 2003 5:35 PM Re: The Druids Hmmm.... I guess a better question would be, what is a Christian, by these people's definition?---And why would they couple Druidry with Christianity? *This message was brought to you by: Amy >"Peter" > > >Re: The Druids >Sun, 11 May 2003 11:02:35 +0100 > >Hi Amylia > > > Good to have you back.---Could you please explain a bit of more about how Druids are more Christian-based now? > >Well, the best "example" is Rowan Williams who was initiated as a Druid a couple of weeks before being inaugurated as the Archbishop of Canterbury. > >Historically, ADUB (An Druidh Uileach Brathraches), the first revivalist Druid organisation, was founded by Christians - John Toland (their 1st chosen chief) was a Christian who was very much anti-church, and I think his view of Druidry was as a Christian organisation which did not fall into the trap of what he called Priestcraft. The 2nd chosen chief (William Stukeley) was a C of E minister. Most modern Druid organisations are offshoots of ADUB in one way or another. > >I think the "change" to a less Christian outlook may have been partly the influence of Gerald Gardner, who was a Druid, and also the founder of Gardnerian Wicca - he was very influential in a number of ways, and I suspect that he first started to introduce some Wiccan & occult ideas into Druidry. But the main change of focus came about with the formation of OBOD in the 1960s - this was a group of Druids who didn't like the fact that only 3 of the solar festivals were celebrated - OBOD incorporated all 8 ancient pagan festivals, and brought in a lot of Wiccan material. From that group you've got a real change in focus, and now the largest groups - OBOD, BDO (now the Druid Network), and several of the US based organisations - have followed that lead - but there are still a lot who follow Toland's original outline. > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2003 Report Share Posted May 11, 2003 Hi Amylia > Hmmm.... I guess a better question would be, what is a Christian, by these people's definition?---And why would > they couple Druidry with Christianity? Well, Christianity, in the most basic sense, is the belief that Jesus was an avatar of a particular monotheistic god. A lot of different varieties of that exist, but that's basically it. In terms of Christianity in the beliefs of the original Druid revivalists, it's best to go to the works of the people themselves... try "Christianity Not Mysterious" by John Toland, which pretty much sums up his views on the subject. And really, to me the question would be more "why not couple Druidry with Christianity"? The concept of Druidry being a neo-Pagan religion is a very modern development. Of course, if you want the full story as to why the Druid revivalists decided to call their new form of Christianity "Druidry", that would take a whole book to explain, 'cos it's not as simple as it may at first seem - basically, in order to fully explain it, you need to cover a basic background of about 16 different historical religious organisations covering about 5000 years of history! Too long to go into here! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 2:44:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: I recently saw a doco about these preserved bodies of all the victims of Druid/pagan sacrificesin Britain about 2,000 years ago - people who'd had their throats cut, young girls drowned, strangulation etc. The Romans, who became christians by around this time, were disgusted by Pagan beliefs and when they came to this pagan enclave in Wales they wiped them out. Christ was against sacrifices, and christians generally are not supportive of pagan beliefs, at least not in my experience. actually..it appears that many folks went willing to the sacrifices, as it was part of their culture, giving back to the earth and all that(no signs of struggle on the autopsied bodies).. as for christian..nope, not yet... most info we have on the Druids comes from one source,.julius ceasar...there are a few other accounts, Greek travels and the like, but most of what we know was handed down from accounts from julius ceasar and his histories..and the man was certainly biased, as he wanted backing to destroy the Gauls and Celts, and add the land to the Roman Empire. and add to his own glory christians have sacrificed in their past as well..they called em crusades, the inquisition, etc... not knocking anyone's religion, just stating that people do "odd"things in the name of their deities.... fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 2:44:37 AM Pacific Daylight Time, vegecentric writes: he Romans, who became christians by around this time, were disgusted by Pagan beliefs and when they came to this pagan enclave in Wales they wiped them out when the romans swept across Britain. most were still "pagan"...most soldiers worshipped Mithra, whose worship mirrored early christianity.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 12:45:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Snowbow writes: Actually....Caesar would seem to have been quite in favour of Druidry - it is yet another revivalist myth that he wanted to destroy them. There is no evidence that Druids fought against the Roman invasion of Gaul, and it was fairly common practice for Roman conquerers to let the conquered maintain their old religious structure (with the addition of a few gods). We also know that Caesar was good friends with a Druid called Divitiacus, and if you look at his writings, there is a strong sense of respect for Druidic practice and knowledge - it is only about 40 years later that Romans started to persecute Druidry in any way. i dunno about that Peter sir..thats not the tone i picked up in Commentaries on the Gallic war. He describes the whole wicker man thing with what appears to me as distaste for the "barbarians"..not like roman's didn't sacrifice on their own anyways..but..thats different you know..do as i say, not as a i do heck, he painted all the Gauls/celts the same, whether they were roman allies er not... i don't recall if Strabo painted them in a similar light er not tho... fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 In a message dated 5/12/03 12:38:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Snowbow writes: What - the Druids who didn't exist, you mean? It's a complete myth that there were ever any Druids in Britain until the 18th century. not so sure about that either peter..there is neither hard proof for them being there er not...there is circumstantial evidence of druids alive and well and kicking in the british isles, tho no hard proof as i recall.... the welsh mabinogion mentions druids does it not? and there is evidence of a flourishing druidism in ancient ireland...so, why not the rest of England? fraggle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Hi Tom > I recently saw a doco about these preserved bodies of all the victims of Druid/pagan sacrificesin Britain about 2,000 years ago What - the Druids who didn't exist, you mean? It's a complete myth that there were ever any Druids in Britain until the 18th century. > people who'd had their throats cut, young girls drowned, strangulation etc. The Romans, who became christians by around this > time, were disgusted by Pagan beliefs and when they came to this pagan enclave in Wales they wiped them out. Very impressive anachronism! The Druids in Gaul disappeared by 300 CE, the Romans became Christian over a century later when Constantine decided it would be a good political move. At the time of Julius Caesar, when Druids were at their most powerful in Gaul, there was no way Romans could be Christian - on the basis that Jesus wouldn't be born for another 70 years. In fact, human sacrifice had been banned in Rome only 26 years earlier, and was still carried out anyway - Julius Caesar recorded sacrificing 3 of his own soldiers to Mars - so I'd say that they were only doing the "usual" for the time. Not particularly nice by todays standards, but then I'm sure in 2000 years time, people will be saying "those 21st century people ate meat - can you believe how barbaric they must have been" (OK, I'd agree with them, but I'm in a minority!) > Christ was against sacrifices What, like the passover lamb? The only reason that Jewish (animal) sacrifice was stopped was because it was only to be carried out at the Temple, and the Temple was destroyed - it's interesting to note that the Beith Yisrael on Tana Kirkos still carry out animal sacrifice, as do the Qmrant. Jesus, being religiously Jewish, would not have necessarily been against sacrifice per se - just against carrying it out without the Temple. > and christians generally are not supportive of pagan beliefs, at least not in my experience. Well there, at least, we agree! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2003 Report Share Posted May 12, 2003 Hi Fraggle > most info we have on the Druids comes from one source,.julius ceasar...there are a few other accounts, Greek travels and the > like, but most of what we know was handed down from accounts from julius ceasar and his histories..and the man was certainly > biased, as he wanted backing to destroy the Gauls and Celts, and add the land to the Roman Empire. Actually....Caesar would seem to have been quite in favour of Druidry - it is yet another revivalist myth that he wanted to destroy them. There is no evidence that Druids fought against the Roman invasion of Gaul, and it was fairly common practice for Roman conquerers to let the conquered maintain their old religious structure (with the addition of a few gods). We also know that Caesar was good friends with a Druid called Divitiacus, and if you look at his writings, there is a strong sense of respect for Druidic practice and knowledge - it is only about 40 years later that Romans started to persecute Druidry in any way. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 I recently saw a doco about these preserved bodies of all the victims of Druid/pagan sacrificesin Britain about 2,000 years ago - people who'd had their throats cut, young girls drowned, strangulation etc. The Romans, who became christians by around this time, were disgusted by Pagan beliefs and when they came to this pagan enclave in Wales they wiped them out. Christ was against sacrifices, and christians generally are not supportive of pagan beliefs, at least not in my experience. Tom - Peter Sunday, May 11, 2003 2:37 PM Re: The Druids Hi Amylia > Hmmm.... I guess a better question would be, what is a Christian, by these people's definition?---And why would > they couple Druidry with Christianity? Well, Christianity, in the most basic sense, is the belief that Jesus was an avatar of a particular monotheistic god. A lot of different varieties of that exist, but that's basically it. In terms of Christianity in the beliefs of the original Druid revivalists, it's best to go to the works of the people themselves... try "Christianity Not Mysterious" by John Toland, which pretty much sums up his views on the subject. And really, to me the question would be more "why not couple Druidry with Christianity"? The concept of Druidry being a neo-Pagan religion is a very modern development. Of course, if you want the full story as to why the Druid revivalists decided to call their new form of Christianity "Druidry", that would take a whole book to explain, 'cos it's not as simple as it may at first seem - basically, in order to fully explain it, you need to cover a basic background of about 16 different historical religious organisations covering about 5000 years of history! Too long to go into here! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release 18/04/03To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Hi Fraggle > i dunno about that Peter sir..thats not the tone i picked up in Commentaries on the Gallic war. He describes the whole wicker > man thing with what appears to me as distaste for the "barbarians".. Caesar never used the term "barbarians" when referring to Druids - he did, however, call them "persons of definite account and dignity". Pliny, on the other hand wasn't so friendly - but he was about 140 years later. If you look at what Caesar says, the very worst that can be said is that it is a completely neutral statement about Druidry - but I detect a certain respect for them in his writings. > i don't recall if Strabo painted them in a similar light er not tho... Strabo is a little less fond of Druids, but that could be due to the change over the period of time since Caesar - he still refers to them as being "held in exceptional honour", but there seems to be a tone of distaste over the sacrificial rites which Caesar seems un-moved by. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2003 Report Share Posted May 13, 2003 Hi Fraggle > not so sure about that either peter..there is neither hard proof for them being there er not...there is circumstantial evidence of > druids alive and well and kicking in the british isles, tho no hard proof as i recall.... There's no circumstantial evidence - it's all based on the assumption that they were here. In fact, culturally, Britain was very different to Gaul in the period we are talking about - there's no evidence of significant similarities in religious practice between the two countries. The whole thing is based on the writings of John Aubrey who didn't have the foggiest idea what he was talking about. In fact, I would argue that Tacitus gives good evidence for Druids *not* being in England.... he states that the Roman Army, who had been controlling Britain for several decades were so shocked to find Druids on Angelsey that they "froze in their tracks, open to wounds from all sides" - not the behaviour of a well trained army meeting their day-to-day adversaries! > the welsh mabinogion mentions druids does it not? Modern translations do - but this is to do with the popularity of Druidry in the 19th century. I believe that Bards are mentioned in the originals, but Bards weren't Druids! Also, I believe the first written version of the Mabinogion dates from around the 16th century, so not really a reliable source. In fact, after Tacitus, the first mention of Druids in England is Raphael Holinshead in the 16th century - a 1200 year gap! > and there is evidence of a flourishing druidism in ancient ireland... Arguably so - although that is more folk tradition than hard evidence. Although I see no real reason to doubt that Druids were in Ireland. > so, why not the rest of England? Very simple - Ireland and France traded considerably with each other without going through England - the Celtic languages of the two countries were closer to each other than either was to England, and there is very powerful evidence that the Irish were very closely related to the Basque people in Spain, which would give an easy trading route to continental Europe which would bypass England completely. In some respects, England is a bit of a "glitch" in ancient Europe, as Celtic culture and lanuage seems to have reached Ireland far earlier than it reached England - in fact, some researchers suggest that there was *never* a Celtic culture in England :-) BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.