Guest guest Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Hi Fraggle, etc. they killed because of US unfaltering support for Isreal .... I know you said a lot more than this, but doesn't this statement make America look at least a little nice? ---Supporting Israel, no matter what? Also, you speak of things I've never heard of before.(The Iraqis posing, American soldiers shooting civilians, etc.) Do you have some kind of connection with an underground newspaper or something? I want to see these things with thine own eyes. (I like two know both sides of every story.) *This message was brought to you by: Amy Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 In a message dated 5/15/03 6:49:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, amylia_21 writes: I know you said a lot more than this, but doesn't this statement make America look at least a little nice? ---Supporting Israel, no matter what? ummm....not particularly ..no.... you do realize that in many parts of the world, isreal is seen as a pariah and a thug nation? the US has consistantly blocked any attempt at UN censor(tho, some resolutions condemning isreal have passed over the years, all ignored)... thousands of people have been kicked out of their villages, their land taken away, houses bulldozed, orchards knocked down...scores have been killed, many more mutilated, lives ruined, etc and so forth... there are a billion places to go for info you won't see in the mainstream press... http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/042903D.shtm www.truthout.org http://www.motherjones.com/ http://www.commondreams.org/ http://www.protest.net/ http://www.adbusters.org/ http://www.fromthewilderness.com/index.html http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ www.moveon.org www.alternet.org http://www.indymedia.org/ http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/ http://www.indybay.org/ and a ton of others out there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Hi Amylia > I know you said a lot more than this, but doesn't this statement make America look at least a little nice? ---Supporting Israel, no > matter what? No matter what? No matter that they are a state founded on terrorism, and continue to persecute the native inhabitants of the area they invade? No matter that, were it not for American Vetos, they would have had over 180 UN resolutions condemning their actions (just one was enough for the US to go to war against Iraq)? Doesn't sound very nice to me! > Also, you speak of things I've never heard of before.(The Iraqis posing, American soldiers shooting civilians, etc.) Do you have > some kind of connection with an underground newspaper or something? I want to see these things with thine own eyes. (I like > two know both sides of every story.) Are you suggesting you don't believe that civilians haven't been shot? There have been several reports in UK newspapers and television. I guess if you're in America you have to make do with the likes of CNN - the American Propaganda Channel! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 16, 2003 Report Share Posted May 16, 2003 Try the internet - look up alternative news. You will find there is so much information that you can spend the rest of your life reading about it. Jo statement make America look at least a little nice? ---Supporting Israel, no matter what? Also, you speak of things I've never heard of before.(The Iraqis posing, American soldiers shooting civilians, etc.) Do you have some kind of connection with an underground newspaper or something? I want to see these things with thine own eyes. (I like two know both sides of every story.) ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 I'd like to emphasize how important it is to look at both sides of an argument, especially when it comes to Israel. We all have biases, but I'd like to share my views. In the Arab World, many of the states use Israel/Jews to distract from internal political issues. This can be seen when the Arab leaders bring Israel to the plate to force the public to ignore other blems. Arafat, when he needs to distract the media or the public about his thefts or violations, uses Israel. Syria, as we saw 2 weeks ago, brought its " peace accord " to the platter when the Syrian Occupation of Lebanon was brought up. Saudi Arabia hosted a " peace plan " a little over a year and a half ago when its alliance with the united states was coming to the forefront. " Thug Nation " status being placed on Israel essentially ignores the state itself. The United Nations is far from peaceful or an effective body. It has caused more problems anywhere it goes than not. For example, the UNRWA(United Nations Refugee and Works Association) has not only aided terrorist efforts, but hasnt fulfilled its duty in aided the refugees. More often than not, it HURTS them and their status as human beings. UNIFIL was supposed to protect Israelis and Lebanese from Hezbollah, instead it aided Hezbollah, allowing it to use its vehicles and videotaping the event. In Africa, the UN has acted out of impartiality to aid its European counterparts in gaining a foothold. A good example of this is what happened during the Clinton Administration in Mogadishu. To say that " Thousands of people " have been kicked out of their villages..etc.. ignores the other part of the refugee problem, the Jews from Arab lands who were kicked out, travelled thousands of miles to a foreign country that had to integrate them into its society and had enough problems while it was beginning. Not only this, but many of these links produce false evidence. Deir Yassin, for example, is case in point. The Jewish Irgun, who was responsible, had witnesses that stated there were more atrocities/refugees than what the palestinian witnesess said. The fact that people will say " deir yassin " doesnt give any insight into some of the reasons, or the fact that the Jewish Agency and the State of Israel took the responsibility(though it wasnt responsible for it directly) and condemned it. Put that into perspective when we see Arafats, Hamas' etc..response to Homicide Bombings. " Orchards Knocked down " - happens not just in Israel, yet they focus on Israel for what reason? Its easy? Its a nice, fat Jewish target... Scores have been killed on both sides, according to an IMRA report in 2002, most the palestinians who have been killed(victims) were combatants in conflict with a well trained army, not only that, but they initiated most of these conflicts. The Israeli victims have mostly been non-combatants. Again, for the UN resolutions..take for example the 1975 Zionism is Racism resolution. Would we ever see a resolution calling African-American nationalism racist? how about a resolution calling Feminism racist? The fact it passed this resolution (and the US abstaining, along with many others) doesnt show that Israel is at fault for the UN's terrible record..One must ask that if Feminism was condemned, would feminists simply go along with it? I wouldnt put it past the UN to take such a stand, if it werent so busy being partial against Israel... What about the Israeli victims who are mutilated? Two boys, 14 and 13, were brutally murdered, their bodies mutilated so much a DNA test was the only way they could be identified.. Hows the Ramallah Lynch for another example? The famous picture of the man with his bloody hands in the air...There are other atrocities across the globe such as the East Timor, Chechnyan and South East Asian mutilations yet ppl focus directly on unfounded atrocities that Israel supposedly committed. Do screws, nails and lost limbs/family members from Palestinian suicide bombings not ruin a life? Israelis/Jews are human too. As for some linkage: www.israelnn.com <~ Arutz Sheva, Channel 7 http://www.weisburd.net/jihadi/index.php <~ Exposes internet pages that support terrorism http://www.israelinfocenter.com/ http://www.righttoexist.org/ http://www.yeshanews.org/ <~ news from Yesha http://www.oneisraelfund.org/ <~ Yesha organization http://www.walk4israel.org http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/home.asp http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/settlementreport.html <~ report on Arab Settlements http://www.hasbara.us/ http://www.danielpipes.org http://www.newsandopinion.com/ http://www.hasbara.net/ www.israelactivism.com www.honestreporting.com http://www.infoisrael.net/ http://www.mered.org/ www.israelforum.com <~ Forum about Israel http://eretzyisroel.org, http://eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/ http://iskandar55.mybravenet.com/index.html <~ many links http://www.adl.org/jew_hatred_history/jew_hatred_history.asp http://www.geocities.com/stop_abuse.geo/Peace-dir.htm <~ more links http://www.accessv.com/~yehuda/ http://www.factsofisrael.com/ www.womeningreen.org www.standwithus.org www.jpost.com http://www.israelinewsnow.com/radio.htm www.israelinsider.com www.jpost.com www.memri.org www.projectonesoul.com http://www.mideasttruth.com/ http://www.pmw.org.il/ <~ good resource for palestinian media http://www.factsandlogic.org/ http://www.edume.org/about/index.htm http://www.wnd.com/ http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results.html http://www.opsick.com/ http://pnews.org/art/1art/MOTHERSjoy.shtml <~ Arafatian " peace " www.youarenotaloneisrael.org As you can see, there are many, and more, links to counter..Let us take a look at your links. >http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2842.htm <~ Decides to use the word " occupation " to describe the US, while using photos to conjure up conspiracies. Truth or not, conspiracies remain unfounded. http://www.motherjones.com/ <~ makes Saddam Hussein appear peaceful...does this ameliorate his atrocities? >http://www.fromthewilderness.com/index.html <~ like the next one, forces the reader to believe in " conspiracies " for oil wars and other various ideas. http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ <~ one only needs to take a look >at this site to realize its not credible. links ranging from the Israeli Conspiracy of Spying on the US or the 9/11 conspiracy to Mcveigh being a coverup for the US government... >www.alternet.org <~ its support for the UN without reading the record of the organization, the fact it produces the Rachel Corrie Murder as thus and nothing else and its support of the International Justice Court show what its aims are, and that isnt a peaceful solution with both states living in security..in my opinion, of >course.. >http://www.indymedia.org/ <~ probably most famous for its support of the advocacy of murder of Jews in Yesha, IndyMedia's homepage reads insight into the " crack down on ISM activists " but not allowing the reader to hear about the ISM and its activities, such as supporting terrorism. >http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/ <~ the Jerusalem edition, it doesnt allow the reader, in its Rachels Tomb story, to understand the IDF's reasons. Rachels Tomb has a lot of history from Israeli activists. Also, the Jerusalem IndyMedia site declares Israel hasnt taken the >initiative..etc...while ignoring violations from the PA and its >counterparts...suspect? >and a ton of others out there... " What others? the Hamas site? the Palestinian Representatives of Hamas in America..? Please understand that I condemn all forms of violence, but when it comes to the politics and purpose of Israeli defense, I feel obligated to present this information. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Alissa > I'd like to emphasize how important it is to look at both sides of an > argument, especially when it comes to Israel. We all have biases, but > I'd like to share my views. Thanks for this - as you say it is important to consider both sides. One thing I would point out, though, is that this is often portrayed as an Arab / Jewish conflict. In fact, the majority of Israelis are not Jewish, but Zionist Europeans. Many come from families who converted to Judaism in the past century, and the main family who funded the original Jewish state was the same one that made a fortune running the Auschwitz concentration camp - despite the fact that they claim to be Jewish! It is a myth that the creation of Israel has anything to do with Judaism or of creating a Jewish homeland - it was a move by a political group who go by the name of Zionists (to try to connect themselves with Judaism even though the vast majority of Zionists are not Jewish) to destabilise the Middle East - and what a grand job they've done of it. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Peter Do you have any links to verify this? I'd be interested in reading into it more deeply Dave Thanks for this - as you say it is important to consider both sides. One thing I would point out, though, is that this is often portrayed as an Arab / Jewish conflict. In fact, the majority of Israelis are not Jewish, but Zionist Europeans. Many come from families who converted to Judaism in the past century, and the main family who funded the original Jewish state was the same one that made a fortune running the Auschwitz concentration camp - despite the fact that they claim to be Jewish! It is a myth that the creation of Israel has anything to do with Judaism or of creating a Jewish homeland - it was a move by a political group who go by the name of Zionists (to try to connect themselves with Judaism even though the vast majority of Zionists are not Jewish) to destabilise the Middle East - and what a grand job they've done of it. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Alissa I disagree. The media in UK do not focus on any of the Israel atrocities - just about the only ones they report are the Palestinian suicide bombings. I'm not sure why you think that Israel is the only 'country' slated for these things. Personally I think that the state of Israel was formed to cause trouble, and it is succeeding very well. I know that I would not like to be a Palestinian at present. They seem to be prisoners in their own country. Jo > I'd like to emphasize how important it is to look at both sides of an > argument, especially when it comes to Israel. We all have biases, but > I'd like to share my views. > > In the Arab World, many of the states use Israel/Jews to distract > from internal political issues. This can be seen when the Arab > leaders bring Israel to the plate to force the public to ignore other > blems. Arafat, when he needs to distract the media or the public > about his thefts or violations, uses Israel. Syria, as we saw 2 weeks > ago, brought its " peace accord " to the platter when the Syrian > Occupation of Lebanon was brought up. Saudi Arabia hosted a " peace > plan " a little over a year and a half ago when its alliance with the > united states was coming to the forefront. > > " Thug Nation " status being placed on Israel essentially ignores the > state itself. The United Nations is far from peaceful or an effective > body. It has caused more problems anywhere it goes than not. For > example, the UNRWA(United Nations Refugee and Works Association) has > not only aided terrorist efforts, but hasnt fulfilled its duty in > aided the refugees. More often than not, it HURTS them and their > status as human beings. UNIFIL was supposed to protect Israelis and > Lebanese from Hezbollah, instead it aided Hezbollah, allowing > it to use its vehicles and videotaping the event. In Africa, the UN > has acted out of impartiality to aid its European counterparts in > gaining a foothold. A good example of this is what happened > during the Clinton Administration in Mogadishu. To say > that " Thousands of people " have been kicked out of their > villages..etc.. ignores the other part of the refugee problem, the > Jews from Arab lands who were kicked out, travelled thousands of > miles to a foreign country that had to integrate them into its > society and had enough problems while it was beginning. Not only > this, but many of these links produce false evidence. Deir Yassin, > for example, is case in point. The Jewish Irgun, who was responsible, > had witnesses that stated there were more atrocities/refugees than > what the palestinian witnesess said. The fact that people will > say " deir yassin " doesnt give any insight into some of the > reasons, or the fact that the Jewish Agency and the State of Israel > took the responsibility(though it wasnt responsible for it directly) > and condemned it. Put that into perspective when we see Arafats, > Hamas' etc..response to Homicide Bombings. > > " Orchards Knocked down " - happens not just in Israel, yet they focus > on Israel for what reason? Its easy? Its a nice, fat Jewish target... > Scores have been killed on both sides, according to an IMRA report in > 2002, most the palestinians who have been killed(victims) were > combatants in conflict with a well trained army, not only that, but > they initiated most of these conflicts. The Israeli victims have > mostly been non-combatants. Again, for the UN resolutions..take for > example the 1975 Zionism is Racism resolution. Would we ever see a > resolution calling African-American nationalism racist? how about a > resolution calling Feminism racist? The fact it passed this resolution > (and the US abstaining, along with many others) doesnt show that > Israel is at fault for the UN's terrible record..One must ask that if > Feminism was condemned, would feminists simply go along with it? I > wouldnt put it past the UN to take such a stand, if it werent so > busy being partial against Israel... > > What about the Israeli victims who are mutilated? Two boys, 14 and > 13, were brutally murdered, their bodies mutilated so much a DNA test > was the only way they could be identified.. Hows the Ramallah Lynch > for another example? The famous picture of the man with his bloody > hands in the air...There are other atrocities across the globe such > as the East Timor, Chechnyan and South East Asian mutilations yet ppl > focus directly on unfounded atrocities that Israel supposedly > committed. Do screws, nails and lost limbs/family members from > Palestinian suicide bombings not ruin a life? Israelis/Jews are human > too. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2003 Report Share Posted May 18, 2003 Hi Dave > Do you have any links to verify this? I'd be interested in reading into it > more deeply I'm not sure which bits you mean (there's quite a complex history to the whole thing) - I haven't personally found any of this on the internet, but mostly in books. The company I referred to running Auschwitz was IG Farben, which was owned by the Rothschild family - the Rothschilds then funded the foundation of Israel - I guess if you do a search on IG Farben you'd probably find something. Zionism is a well recognised political movement which has been linked (incorrectly) to Judaism - this is largely so that anyone who criticises the activities of Zionists can be accused of anti-semitism, and the US Anti-Defamation League (which is a front for a Zionist group calle B'nai Brith) has been set up largely to take action against anyone who makes such criticism. B'nai Brith also hope to foster anti-semitism by masquerading as a racist Jewish group which claims to be working toward a system where gentiles are treated as slaves to Jews. Of course, most of the people involved in B'nai Brith are not Jewish anyway, and the few which are do not in any way represent the Jewish people - but the image that B'nai Brith works hard to create is that Jews believe they are superior to non-Jews, thereby encouraging non-Jews to be anti-Semitic. So, basically, you've got a group going around attempting to create as much anti-Semitism as possible, and then accusing people of being anti-Semitic when they aren't. The " policy document " of Zionism was written in the 19th century, and is now known as " The Protocols of the Elders of Zion " - it details a whole series of events for the 20th century including the foundation of a nominally (although not actually) Jewish state. Unfortunately, due to the activities of B'nai Brith, anyone who dares to mention this document is accused of being anti-Semitic - even when they make it clear that it has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism (which it doesn't!) I know that someone will come back and say that this document is a " fraud aimed at fostering anti-Semitism " . This is not the case - it is a genuine Zionist document which, since coming into the public domain, has been linked with Judaism specifically so that people will believe it is a fraud aimed at fostering anti-Semitism - the only fraudulent aspect of it is the supposed link to Judaism. For a good discussion of this document, you might want to check out Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Baigent, Lee & Lincoln. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 and since you are on the subject hammas was formed by the isreali miltary.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 In a message dated 5/18/03 11:32:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Snowbow writes: For a good discussion of this document, you might want to check out Holy Blood, Holy Grail by Baigent, Lee & Lincoln. you just want the Templar treasure fer yerself!! admit it, yer a neo cathar!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 19, 2003 Report Share Posted May 19, 2003 Hi Fraggle > you just want the Templar treasure fer yerself!! I'd have to find it first - I've only traced it to 1863 so far, don't know where it went after that :-( > admit it, yer a neo cathar!! All hail Rex Mundi :-) BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release 13/05/03 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 20, 2003 Report Share Posted May 20, 2003 , EBbrewpunx@c... wrote: > and since you are on the subject > hammas was formed by the isreali miltary.... Hamas was NOT formed by the Israeli military. On the contrary, it was formed by groups who were opposed to Arafat(and HIS terrorist networks, El-Fatah, PLO, etc..) having control. The leader, Shiekh Yassin Ahmed, now acts as the formal " spiritual leader. " His group, Hamas, was formally registered legally inside Israel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 21, 2003 Report Share Posted May 21, 2003 In a message dated 5/19/03 4:21:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, snowhiten7mice writes: Hamas was NOT formed by the Israeli military. On the contrary, it was formed by groups who were opposed to Arafat(and HIS terrorist networks, El-Fatah, PLO, etc..) having control. The leader, Shiekh Yassin Ahmed, now acts as the formal "spiritual leader." His group, Hamas, was formally registered legally inside Israel. hamas was coddled in the 1970's by the isreali military as a means to counter yassir arafats PLO...kinda backfired on them didn't it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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