Response to Tom (religion)

[Guest guest]

Yes Tom, I an agree with you that people should be judged by how they treat others, I too have trouble understanding the logic of some Christians, that someone like Ghandi would not get into heaven and someone who is abusive to others and animals intentionally would be there in his place because he is "saved". If we are basing religion on any kind of justice, which Christianity and more so Islam seem to want to do, than where is the justice in that? It does elude me.

And why would someone want to be part of a heaven like that anyway? Could we really enjoy ourselves for all eternity knowing that others who led good lives, yet walked other paths, were burning in hell? No, I can't imagine this, I would have to have to choose hell on principle.

I do not attend church as much as I would like to because I do not want to hide my beliefs from those around me, this would defeat the reason I would go to church.

Let me take a moment to defend Islam again, the principles of Islam as laid out by the prophet Mohammed are based in compassion, not only for humans, but for animals. I will try to find some passages on animals in my Quran, it is one of the only religions that states right in it's holy book that animals are to be respected and are of importance. Of course it doesn't go as far as we would like, but what can you do. Judging Islam by the Muslims you see and hear of is like judging Christ by some of the followers. We don't see the people who are making a difference, often becasue they are too busy trying to make a difference to shout out from the hilltops to others the errors of their ways, or God forbid fly planes into buildings.

I know your frustration with organized religion, but like you eloquently pointed out, it is a quality of humans, that can be found in Christians, Pagans, animal activists. I always struggle with the issues you do, but I try to see past it to my heart, and my heart tells me there is a God, and that is a God of love and compassion. So that is truth for me. I have a signature line in my other email by Persian poet Kahlil Gibran that says "Say not that I have found the truth, but rather "I have found a truth". That sounds nice to me.

 

ecause

Hi Siobhan,As I've said, there a lots of good religious people, and I know quite a few, especially working in the disability field. In fact, it is more how people treat others that they should be judged, as actions speak louder than words. The hardest thing about getting involved with a local Animal Liberation group many years ago, was the realization that just because people had similar beliefs, it didn't make them decent people. In fact I've witnessed more ruthlessness shown by fellow Animal Libbers to one another than they ever displayed towards farmers or vivisectors. It's disappointing and disillusioning to me that some of my carnivorous friends and colleagues are much nicer, friendlier people than a few of the people I've known in the animal lib/veggo movement. You say you are a "bad" christian, but you sound like a good person to me, and I believe that people are good in spite of, not because of religion. When I grew up in the country I had a dairy farmer uncle, who was such a & *$@, (not to mention that he torured dairy cows for a living), yet he was a very upstanding catholic, a pillar of the church. My brothers and I nicknamed him "Uncle Fascist", and only half-jokingly. As for Islam, I do find it a particularly aggressive form of religion, and the treatment of women, as an example, seems not be an aberration, rather the rule.

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Guest guest]

And except for terminally ill, who doesn't fear death? The person who

commits suicide, I think, doesn't really want death, but an end to his/her

pain.

 

Yeah, religion seems like mind control to me, too. And nothing is more

fercockta than the Catholic Church where loving gay couples are condemned,

but abusive priests get away with everything but murder.

 

Danielle

 

 

 

 

" You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake " --Jeanette Rankin

 

 

 

 

 

----Original Message Follows----

" Vegecentric " <vegecentric

 

 

Re: Response to Tom (religion)

Mon, 19 May 2003 21:39:27 -0700

 

Hi Siobhan,

What I don't understand is people who " pray " to God, or think he/she/it will

help them, when clearly it doesn't work. I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of

the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they

were killed, and it didn't do them much good. So either God is a capricious,

spiteful being who ignores the suffering of countless innocents, like

starving children and lab animals, or God is essentially useless, and

therefore praying is pointless (expect, perhaps, if if gives someone hope,

albeit ill-founded). Also, if Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. really believed

they were going to heaven; really believed that being with God was

infinitely preferrable to life on Earth, they would embrace death, not be

terrified of it like many people (naturally) are. In my experience, growing

up Catholic, heaven and hell was like good cop/bad cop, designed to scare

you into doing the " right " thing, which was really mind-control.

 

Tom

-

Surya Burdick

Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:41 AM

Response to Tom (religion)

 

 

Yes Tom, I an agree with you that people should be judged by how they

treat others, I too have trouble understanding the logic of some Christians,

that someone like Ghandi would not get into heaven and someone who is

abusive to others and animals intentionally would be there in his place

because he is " saved " . If we are basing religion on any kind of justice,

which Christianity and more so Islam seem to want to do, than where is the

justice in that? It does elude me.

And why would someone want to be part of a heaven like that anyway? Could

we really enjoy ourselves for all eternity knowing that others who led good

lives, yet walked other paths, were burning in hell? No, I can't imagine

this, I would have to have to choose hell on principle.

I do not attend church as much as I would like to because I do not want

to hide my beliefs from those around me, this would defeat the reason I

would go to church.

Let me take a moment to defend Islam again, the principles of Islam as

laid out by the prophet Mohammed are based in compassion, not only for

humans, but for animals. I will try to find some passages on animals in my

Quran, it is one of the only religions that states right in it's holy book

that animals are to be respected and are of importance. Of course it doesn't

go as far as we would like, but what can you do. Judging Islam by the

Muslims you see and hear of is like judging Christ by some of the followers.

We don't see the people who are making a difference, often becasue they are

too busy trying to make a difference to shout out from the hilltops to

others the errors of their ways, or God forbid fly planes into buildings.

I know your frustration with organized religion, but like you eloquently

pointed out, it is a quality of humans, that can be found in Christians,

Pagans, animal activists. I always struggle with the issues you do, but I

try to see past it to my heart, and my heart tells me there is a God, and

that is a God of love and compassion. So that is truth for me. I have a

signature line in my other email by Persian poet Kahlil Gibran that says

" Say not that I have found the truth, but rather " I have found a truth " .

That sounds nice to me.

 

 

ecause

Hi Siobhan,

As I've said, there a lots of good religious people, and I know quite a

few, especially working in the disability field. In fact, it is more

how people treat others that they should be judged, as actions speak

louder than words. The hardest thing about getting involved with a local

Animal Liberation group many years ago, was the realization that just

because people had similar beliefs, it didn't make them decent people. In

fact I've witnessed more ruthlessness shown by fellow Animal Libbers to

one another than they ever displayed towards farmers or vivisectors.

It's disappointing and disillusioning to me that some of my carnivorous

friends and colleagues are much nicer, friendlier people than a few of

the people I've known in the animal lib/veggo movement.

 

You say you are a " bad " christian, but you sound like a good person to

me, and I believe that people are good in spite of, not because of

religion. When I grew up in the country I had a dairy farmer uncle, who

was

such a & *$@, (not to mention that he torured dairy cows for a living),

yet he was a very upstanding catholic, a pillar of the church. My

brothers and I nicknamed him " Uncle Fascist " , and only half-jokingly. As

for

Islam, I do find it a particularly aggressive form of religion, and the

treatment of women, as an example, seems not be an aberration, rather

the rule.

 

 

 

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Guest guest]

Who does not fear death?

Jesus didn't fear death. Krishna didn't fear death. Mohammed didn't fear death. Buddha didn't fear death. Sai Baba doesn't fear death.

I think the reason behind it is because they (all of them being spiritual leaders) knew what was going to happen after death and that's why they weren't afraid to leave their bodies behind and get the * out of here after they had had their best time on Earth. But that's just one way of looking at stuff. There are always so many ways one can choose!

 

Marit

 

-

Danielle Kichler

Monday, May 19, 2003 2:50 PM

Re: Response to Tom (religion)

And except for terminally ill, who doesn't fear death? The person who commits suicide, I think, doesn't really want death, but an end to his/her pain.Yeah, religion seems like mind control to me, too. And nothing is more fercockta than the Catholic Church where loving gay couples are condemned, but abusive priests get away with everything but murder.Danielle"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake"--Jeanette Rankin----Original Message Follows----"Vegecentric" <vegecentric To: Re: Response to Tom (religion)Mon, 19 May 2003 21:39:27 -0700Hi Siobhan,What I don't understand is people who "pray" to God, or think he/she/it will help them, when clearly it doesn't work. I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it didn't do them much good. So either God is a capricious, spiteful being who ignores the suffering of countless innocents, like starving children and lab animals, or God is essentially useless, and therefore praying is pointless (expect, perhaps, if if gives someone hope, albeit ill-founded). Also, if Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. really believed they were going to heaven; really believed that being with God was infinitely preferrable to life on Earth, they would embrace death, not be terrified of it like many people (naturally) are. In my experience, growing up Catholic, heaven and hell was like good cop/bad cop, designed to scare you into doing the "right" thing, which was really mind-control.Tom - Surya Burdick Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:41 AM Response to Tom (religion) Yes Tom, I an agree with you that people should be judged by how they treat others, I too have trouble understanding the logic of some Christians, that someone like Ghandi would not get into heaven and someone who is abusive to others and animals intentionally would be there in his place because he is "saved". If we are basing religion on any kind of justice, which Christianity and more so Islam seem to want to do, than where is the justice in that? It does elude me. And why would someone want to be part of a heaven like that anyway? Could we really enjoy ourselves for all eternity knowing that others who led good lives, yet walked other paths, were burning in hell? No, I can't imagine this, I would have to have to choose hell on principle. I do not attend church as much as I would like to because I do not want to hide my beliefs from those around me, this would defeat the reason I would go to church. Let me take a moment to defend Islam again, the principles of Islam as laid out by the prophet Mohammed are based in compassion, not only for humans, but for animals. I will try to find some passages on animals in my Quran, it is one of the only religions that states right in it's holy book that animals are to be respected and are of importance. Of course it doesn't go as far as we would like, but what can you do. Judging Islam by the Muslims you see and hear of is like judging Christ by some of the followers. We don't see the people who are making a difference, often becasue they are too busy trying to make a difference to shout out from the hilltops to others the errors of their ways, or God forbid fly planes into buildings. I know your frustration with organized religion, but like you eloquently pointed out, it is a quality of humans, that can be found in Christians, Pagans, animal activists. I always struggle with the issues you do, but I try to see past it to my heart, and my heart tells me there is a God, and that is a God of love and compassion. So that is truth for me. I have a signature line in my other email by Persian poet Kahlil Gibran that says "Say not that I have found the truth, but rather "I have found a truth". That sounds nice to me. ecause Hi Siobhan, As I've said, there a lots of good religious people, and I know quite a few, especially working in the disability field. In fact, it is more how people treat others that they should be judged, as actions speak louder than words. The hardest thing about getting involved with a local Animal Liberation group many years ago, was the realization that just because people had similar beliefs, it didn't make them decent people. In fact I've witnessed more ruthlessness shown by fellow Animal Libbers to one another than they ever displayed towards farmers or vivisectors. It's disappointing and disillusioning to me that some of my carnivorous friends and colleagues are much nicer, friendlier people than a few of the people I've known in the animal lib/veggo movement. You say you are a "bad" christian, but you sound like a good person to me, and I believe that people are good in spite of, not because of religion. When I grew up in the country I had a dairy farmer uncle, who was such a & *$@, (not to mention that he torured dairy cows for a living), yet he was a very upstanding catholic, a pillar of the church. My brothers and I nicknamed him "Uncle Fascist", and only half-jokingly. As for Islam, I do find it a particularly aggressive form of religion, and the treatment of women, as an example, seems not be an aberration, rather the rule. The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.

[Guest guest]

 

-

Vegecentric

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 5:39 AM

Re: Response to Tom (religion)

 

In the beginning of Christian bibles..It say God made this and that.. "and saw that it was good" thus impling that the God of these bibles does not have total control over everything that was created..Maybe a bit like Humans making a computer or whatever...and not having total control over how it will always react

 

Simon

 

Hi Siobhan,

What I don't understand is people who "pray" to God, or think he/she/it will help them, when clearly it doesn't work. I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it didn't do them much good. So either God is a capricious, spiteful being who ignores the suffering of countless innocents, like starving children and lab animals, or God is essentially useless, and therefore praying is pointless (expect, perhaps, if if gives someone hope, albeit ill-founded). Also, if Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. really believed they were going to heaven; really believed that being with God was infinitely preferrable to life on Earth, they would embrace death, not be terrified of it like many people (naturally) are. In my experience, growing up Catholic, heaven and hell was like good cop/bad cop, designed to scare you into doing the "right" thing, which was really mind-control.

 

Tom

 

-

Surya Burdick

Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:41 AM

Response to Tom (religion)

 

 

Yes Tom, I an agree with you that people should be judged by how they treat others, I too have trouble understanding the logic of some Christians, that someone like Ghandi would not get into heaven and someone who is abusive to others and animals intentionally would be there in his place because he is "saved". If we are basing religion on any kind of justice, which Christianity and more so Islam seem to want to do, than where is the justice in that? It does elude me.

And why would someone want to be part of a heaven like that anyway? Could we really enjoy ourselves for all eternity knowing that others who led good lives, yet walked other paths, were burning in hell? No, I can't imagine this, I would have to have to choose hell on principle.

I do not attend church as much as I would like to because I do not want to hide my beliefs from those around me, this would defeat the reason I would go to church.

Let me take a moment to defend Islam again, the principles of Islam as laid out by the prophet Mohammed are based in compassion, not only for humans, but for animals. I will try to find some passages on animals in my Quran, it is one of the only religions that states right in it's holy book that animals are to be respected and are of importance. Of course it doesn't go as far as we would like, but what can you do. Judging Islam by the Muslims you see and hear of is like judging Christ by some of the followers. We don't see the people who are making a difference, often becasue they are too busy trying to make a difference to shout out from the hilltops to others the errors of their ways, or God forbid fly planes into buildings.

I know your frustration with organized religion, but like you eloquently pointed out, it is a quality of humans, that can be found in Christians, Pagans, animal activists. I always struggle with the issues you do, but I try to see past it to my heart, and my heart tells me there is a God, and that is a God of love and compassion. So that is truth for me. I have a signature line in my other email by Persian poet Kahlil Gibran that says "Say not that I have found the truth, but rather "I have found a truth". That sounds nice to me.

 

ecause

Hi Siobhan,As I've said, there a lots of good religious people, and I know quite a few, especially working in the disability field. In fact, it is more how people treat others that they should be judged, as actions speak louder than words. The hardest thing about getting involved with a local Animal Liberation group many years ago, was the realization that just because people had similar beliefs, it didn't make them decent people. In fact I've witnessed more ruthlessness shown by fellow Animal Libbers to one another than they ever displayed towards farmers or vivisectors. It's disappointing and disillusioning to me that some of my carnivorous friends and colleagues are much nicer, friendlier people than a few of the people I've known in the animal lib/veggo movement. You say you are a "bad" christian, but you sound like a good person to me, and I believe that people are good in spite of, not because of religion. When I grew up in the country I had a dairy farmer uncle, who was such a & *$@, (not to mention that he torured dairy cows for a living), yet he was a very upstanding catholic, a pillar of the church. My brothers and I nicknamed him "Uncle Fascist", and only half-jokingly. As for Islam, I do find it a particularly aggressive form of religion, and the treatment of women, as an example, seems not be an aberration, rather the rule.

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Hi Danielle

 

> And except for terminally ill, who doesn't fear death?

 

Actually, I honestly don't fear death. I hope that when I go, it will be

easy and not too painful, but I have absolutely no worries about what may be

on the other side (basically, I have a minor concern about the *how*, but

not about the *what*). Personally, I enjoy the life I'm currently living,

and have no intention of leaving it for at least another 80 odd years - but

when I finally get fed up with the physical world, I'll be happy to move on!

:-)

 

BB

Peter

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Hi Tom

 

> What I don't understand is people who "pray" to God, or think he/she/it will help them, when clearly it doesn't work.

 

Actually, scientific studies have shown that cancer victims who have people praying for them have a greater chance of survival. Personally I don't put this down to the fact that a god is listening, but it's clear that praying does have an effect.

 

> I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it

> didn't do them much good.

 

How do you know - have you spoken to any of them?

 

> Also, if Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. really believed they were going to heaven; really believed that being with God was

> infinitely preferrable to life on Earth, they would embrace death, not be terrified of it like many people (naturally) are.

 

At last, we have some common ground - this is something that does confuse me about many religions - death seems to be the doorway to achieving the ultimate goal, but those who believe this do not seem keen to try it out. As I mentioned in another e-mail, I am sure I will enjoy the experience of another reality when I finally go, but I'm enjoying this life way too much to want to head off elsewhere at the moment!

 

> In my experience, growing up Catholic, heaven and hell was like good cop/bad cop, designed to scare you into doing the "right"

> thing, which was really mind-control.

 

I think there is a lot of this from people high up in religious organisations. I do, however, think that people often get confused with people abusing religion for their own power over others, and the genuine religious beliefs themselves.

 

BB

Peter

 

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[Guest guest]

 

-

Peter

Monday, May 19, 2003 5:59 PM

Re: Response to Tom (religion)

 

 

> I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it

> didn't do them much good.

 

From what I understand of a Christian God--- we/humans have a free- will which God wouldn't interfere with .As we were given charge of the earth -and got ourselves into this mess so wouldl have to learn to get ourselves out of the mess-----much like a loving parent who would give good advise their children... but has to let them live their own lives.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Siobhan,

What I don't understand is people who "pray" to God, or think he/she/it will help them, when clearly it doesn't work. I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it didn't do them much good. So either God is a capricious, spiteful being who ignores the suffering of countless innocents, like starving children and lab animals, or God is essentially useless, and therefore praying is pointless (expect, perhaps, if if gives someone hope, albeit ill-founded). Also, if Christians/Muslims/Hindus etc. really believed they were going to heaven; really believed that being with God was infinitely preferrable to life on Earth, they would embrace death, not be terrified of it like many people (naturally) are. In my experience, growing up Catholic, heaven and hell was like good cop/bad cop, designed to scare you into doing the "right" thing, which was really mind-control.

 

Tom

 

-

Surya Burdick

Sunday, May 18, 2003 10:41 AM

Response to Tom (religion)

 

 

Yes Tom, I an agree with you that people should be judged by how they treat others, I too have trouble understanding the logic of some Christians, that someone like Ghandi would not get into heaven and someone who is abusive to others and animals intentionally would be there in his place because he is "saved". If we are basing religion on any kind of justice, which Christianity and more so Islam seem to want to do, than where is the justice in that? It does elude me.

And why would someone want to be part of a heaven like that anyway? Could we really enjoy ourselves for all eternity knowing that others who led good lives, yet walked other paths, were burning in hell? No, I can't imagine this, I would have to have to choose hell on principle.

I do not attend church as much as I would like to because I do not want to hide my beliefs from those around me, this would defeat the reason I would go to church.

Let me take a moment to defend Islam again, the principles of Islam as laid out by the prophet Mohammed are based in compassion, not only for humans, but for animals. I will try to find some passages on animals in my Quran, it is one of the only religions that states right in it's holy book that animals are to be respected and are of importance. Of course it doesn't go as far as we would like, but what can you do. Judging Islam by the Muslims you see and hear of is like judging Christ by some of the followers. We don't see the people who are making a difference, often becasue they are too busy trying to make a difference to shout out from the hilltops to others the errors of their ways, or God forbid fly planes into buildings.

I know your frustration with organized religion, but like you eloquently pointed out, it is a quality of humans, that can be found in Christians, Pagans, animal activists. I always struggle with the issues you do, but I try to see past it to my heart, and my heart tells me there is a God, and that is a God of love and compassion. So that is truth for me. I have a signature line in my other email by Persian poet Kahlil Gibran that says "Say not that I have found the truth, but rather "I have found a truth". That sounds nice to me.

 

ecause

Hi Siobhan,As I've said, there a lots of good religious people, and I know quite a few, especially working in the disability field. In fact, it is more how people treat others that they should be judged, as actions speak louder than words. The hardest thing about getting involved with a local Animal Liberation group many years ago, was the realization that just because people had similar beliefs, it didn't make them decent people. In fact I've witnessed more ruthlessness shown by fellow Animal Libbers to one another than they ever displayed towards farmers or vivisectors. It's disappointing and disillusioning to me that some of my carnivorous friends and colleagues are much nicer, friendlier people than a few of the people I've known in the animal lib/veggo movement. You say you are a "bad" christian, but you sound like a good person to me, and I believe that people are good in spite of, not because of religion. When I grew up in the country I had a dairy farmer uncle, who was such a & *$@, (not to mention that he torured dairy cows for a living), yet he was a very upstanding catholic, a pillar of the church. My brothers and I nicknamed him "Uncle Fascist", and only half-jokingly. As for Islam, I do find it a particularly aggressive form of religion, and the treatment of women, as an example, seems not be an aberration, rather the rule.

 

 

The New Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

god gave us free will, if you bleive in him, so blaming him/her for what happens because of actions, eg WTC, is like blaming your parents when you are an adult, for the things you have chosen to do.......

catherine

>"simonpjones"

> >

>Re: Response to Tom (religion) >Mon, 19 May 2003 21:31:09 +0100 > > > - > Peter > > Monday, May 19, 2003 5:59 PM > Re: Response to Tom (religion) > > > > > I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it > > didn't do them much good. > > From what I understand of a Christian God--- we/humans have a free- will which God wouldn't interfere with .As we were given charge of the earth -and got ourselves into this mess so wouldl have to learn to get ourselves out of the mess-----much like a loving parent who would give good advise their children... but has to let them live their own lives. > > If you love music, create your own online music collection with MSN Music Club.

[Guest guest]

Yes, but unlike our parents God is supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent. What parent (myself included) would not prevent their children from coming to grave harm if they could do so? If God actually is able to stop starvation, animal cruelty, terrorism etc etc. and doesn't, then he/she/it is either a) amoral or b)a sadist. Which of us, given the power, would at least prevent one unnecessary death or life of torture? If this God-thingy made humans knowingly with propensity to evil, then God must take responsibility. Preferrably, I'd rather not believe in a being that is capable of creating something so flawed that it wreaks havoc on itself and the rest of nature, then sits back smugly and says "well, you guys made your choices, now suffer! Oh, and by the way, if you break my rules, you get tortured for eternity". Sounds like the ultimate fascist dictator to me.

 

Tom

 

-

Catherine Harris

Tuesday, May 20, 2003 6:00 AM

Re: Response to Tom (religion)

 

 

 

god gave us free will, if you bleive in him, so blaming him/her for what happens because of actions, eg WTC, is like blaming your parents when you are an adult, for the things you have chosen to do.......

catherine

>"simonpjones"

> >

>Re: Response to Tom (religion) >Mon, 19 May 2003 21:31:09 +0100 > > > - > Peter > > Monday, May 19, 2003 5:59 PM > Re: Response to Tom (religion) > > > > > I mean, I'm tipping that a lot of the people who perished in the World Trade Centre prayed to God before they were killed, and it > > didn't do them much good. > > From what I understand of a Christian God--- we/humans have a free- will which God wouldn't interfere with .As we were given charge of the earth -and got ourselves into this mess so wouldl have to learn to get ourselves out of the mess-----much like a loving parent who would give good advise their children... but has to let them live their own lives. > >

 

If you love music, create your own online music collection with MSN Music Club. To send an email to -