Guest guest Posted July 14, 2007 Report Share Posted July 14, 2007 Hi everyone, This post concludes my backlog cleanup. I am not the author, I wish only to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to Lisa Fine, who shared her very honest and candid impressions of me about 2 months ago. Thank you, Lisa. Best to all, Elchanan _____ rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Lisa & Mica Fine Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:29 PM rawfood [Raw Food] My Take on Elchanan (WAS) Out of balance Hello Everyone, I wanted to share my outlook on Elchanan. I've been a member of this group for quite a while, and have been a member of Path of Health since just a few days after its formation. Elchanan is a complex man. Honestly, I empathize with what many of you may be feeling : ) In the beginning, I too thought Elchanan seemed like a " know it all " . His posts made me angry, raised my blood pressure. I thought he was the biggest fraud and cult leader wanna be. It seemed he had an answer for everything, and seemed brash and haughty. But...also like many of you, his posts are compelling, and I was found myself not wanting to filter out his messages. For a long time, even *after* joining Path of Health, I read his posts with an eye toward picking them apart, as well as shaking my head at his heavy handedness. BUT.....I noticed that unlike many others who call themselves experts, Elchanan is *consistent* in his message. Not on diet alone, but on physiology as a whole, and even on diverse and unrelated topics. We are not " followers " of Elchanan. I doubt any one of us who cherish his insight agree fully with everything he has to say on every topic. But at least he has an opinion, at least he take the time to answer questions fully. He doesn't advocate one thing this week, and another the next. He doesn't have a website claiming hisself " World Authority " of anything. He doesn't have a commerce site full of the overpriced supplement/superfood/bullsh%* of the moment. All he does is offer his personal insight, and he offers it freely. If you do choose to be a long term member of Path of Health, the tiny member fee is less than the dues at WeightWatchers!!! And how many of us have paid for that or similar things with NO return of insight or genuine community?? If you get to know him, you will see that he is fully human, admits mistakes, has a wonderful sense of humor, is compassionate, quirky, and generous with his words, time, and resources. He is always ready to learn new things. He is not didactic or close minded. My point is not to convine any of you to adore Elchanan. I only ask that you do two things: first, read what he has to say for a while...he grows on you as you get to see his patient consistency, and second, examine your discomfort with his postings. Is your discomfort more about you than it is him? How does it hurt you for him to post often and opinionatedly? Do you have better answers to the questions he responds to? If so...post away, instead of bemoaning that he is trying to dominate the group. For a while, try to see his gift to you. He is offering what he has to give. Last...have any of you considered how unkind you have been to him? What if someone were saying these things about you? What if you belonged to a group that you felt passionately about...like, I don't know...rose gardening, animal rescue, etc. I bet that as opinionated as Elchanan may be, and even if he is incorrect about every subject he writes about, I maintain that you have hurt him. Isn't raw veganism somewhat about raising our lives on all levels? Isn't kindness and compassion a worthy ideal? How easily we disregard the feelings of others. To new members: keep your eyes open on this journey. Elchanan is a voice in the wilderness. To complaining members: Let's see your opinions about these topics instead of your opinion on Elchanan's post count. To Elchanan: Thank You. Thanks for listening! Lisa Fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Thanks for sharing this Elchanan. I agree how easily we tend to disregard people's feelings. Sometimes it is unintentional. It would be nice if everyone could post their opinions without constantly ripping apart the opinions of others they do not agree with. Most of the time if I do not agree with a post I just delete it. Elchanan <Elchanan wrote: Hi everyone, This post concludes my backlog cleanup. I am not the author, I wish only to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to Lisa Fine, who shared her very honest and candid impressions of me about 2 months ago. Thank you, Lisa. Best to all, Elchanan _____ rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Lisa & Mica Fine Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:29 PM rawfood [Raw Food] My Take on Elchanan (WAS) Out of balance Hello Everyone, I wanted to share my outlook on Elchanan. I've been a member of this group for quite a while, and have been a member of Path of Health since just a few days after its formation. Elchanan is a complex man. Honestly, I empathize with what many of you may be feeling : ) In the beginning, I too thought Elchanan seemed like a " know it all " . His posts made me angry, raised my blood pressure. I thought he was the biggest fraud and cult leader wanna be. It seemed he had an answer for everything, and seemed brash and haughty. But...also like many of you, his posts are compelling, and I was found myself not wanting to filter out his messages. For a long time, even *after* joining Path of Health, I read his posts with an eye toward picking them apart, as well as shaking my head at his heavy handedness. BUT.....I noticed that unlike many others who call themselves experts, Elchanan is *consistent* in his message. Not on diet alone, but on physiology as a whole, and even on diverse and unrelated topics. We are not " followers " of Elchanan. I doubt any one of us who cherish his insight agree fully with everything he has to say on every topic. But at least he has an opinion, at least he take the time to answer questions fully. He doesn't advocate one thing this week, and another the next. He doesn't have a website claiming hisself " World Authority " of anything. He doesn't have a commerce site full of the overpriced supplement/superfood/bullsh%* of the moment. All he does is offer his personal insight, and he offers it freely. If you do choose to be a long term member of Path of Health, the tiny member fee is less than the dues at WeightWatchers!!! And how many of us have paid for that or similar things with NO return of insight or genuine community?? If you get to know him, you will see that he is fully human, admits mistakes, has a wonderful sense of humor, is compassionate, quirky, and generous with his words, time, and resources. He is always ready to learn new things. He is not didactic or close minded. My point is not to convine any of you to adore Elchanan. I only ask that you do two things: first, read what he has to say for a while...he grows on you as you get to see his patient consistency, and second, examine your discomfort with his postings. Is your discomfort more about you than it is him? How does it hurt you for him to post often and opinionatedly? Do you have better answers to the questions he responds to? If so...post away, instead of bemoaning that he is trying to dominate the group. For a while, try to see his gift to you. He is offering what he has to give. Last...have any of you considered how unkind you have been to him? What if someone were saying these things about you? What if you belonged to a group that you felt passionately about...like, I don't know...rose gardening, animal rescue, etc. I bet that as opinionated as Elchanan may be, and even if he is incorrect about every subject he writes about, I maintain that you have hurt him. Isn't raw veganism somewhat about raising our lives on all levels? Isn't kindness and compassion a worthy ideal? How easily we disregard the feelings of others. To new members: keep your eyes open on this journey. Elchanan is a voice in the wilderness. To complaining members: Let's see your opinions about these topics instead of your opinion on Elchanan's post count. To Elchanan: Thank You. Thanks for listening! Lisa Fine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2007 Report Share Posted July 16, 2007 Hi Terry, You are welcome. What each of us says is an expression of ourselves, first and foremost. And if one reads with a bit of care and compassion, one can easily discern who is feeling much pain, who is living in the past, vs. who is living in the present. Those living in the past are often less than receptive to many ideas, and those living in the present tend to be more curious. This does not mean that they agree or disagree with anything in particular. Rather, it means simply that they tend to hear and to receive what is actually said by others, rather than listening through thick filters. Best, Elchanan _____ rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Terry Bakhtiari Monday, July 16, 2007 4:06 AM rawfood Re: [Raw Food] My Take on Elchanan (Lisa Fine) Thanks for sharing this Elchanan. I agree how easily we tend to disregard people's feelings. Sometimes it is unintentional. It would be nice if everyone could post their opinions without constantly ripping apart the opinions of others they do not agree with. Most of the time if I do not agree with a post I just delete it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2007 Report Share Posted July 17, 2007 > rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of > Lisa & Mica Fine > Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:29 PM > rawfood > [Raw Food] My Take on Elchanan (WAS) Out of balance > > > Hello Everyone, > > I wanted to share my outlook on Elchanan. I've been a member of this group > for quite a while, and have been a member of Path of Health since just a few > days after its formation. Elchanan is a complex man. > > Honestly, I empathize with what many of you may be feeling : ) In the > beginning, I too thought Elchanan seemed like a " know it all " . His posts > made me angry, raised my blood pressure. I thought he was the biggest fraud > and cult leader wanna be. It seemed he had an answer for everything, and > seemed brash and haughty. But...also like many of you, his posts are > compelling, and I was found myself not wanting to filter out his messages. > > For a long time, even *after* joining Path of Health, I read his posts with > an eye toward picking them apart, as well as shaking my head at his heavy > handedness. BUT.....I noticed that unlike many others who call themselves > experts, Elchanan is *consistent* in his message. Not on diet alone, but on > physiology as a whole, and even on diverse and unrelated topics. > > We are not " followers " of Elchanan. I doubt any one of us who cherish his > insight agree fully with everything he has to say on every topic. But at > least he has an opinion, at least he take the time to answer questions > fully. He doesn't advocate one thing this week, and another the next. He > doesn't have a website claiming hisself " World Authority " of anything. He > doesn't have a commerce site full of the overpriced > supplement/superfood/bullsh%* of the moment. All he does is offer his > personal insight, and he offers it freely. If you do choose to be a long > term member of Path of Health, the tiny member fee is less than the dues at > WeightWatchers!!! And how many of us have paid for that or similar things > with NO return of insight or genuine community?? If you get to know him, you > will see that he is fully human, admits mistakes, has a wonderful sense of > humor, is compassionate, quirky, and generous with his words, time, and > resources. He is always ready to learn new things. He is not didactic or > close minded. > > My point is not to convine any of you to adore Elchanan. I only ask that you > do two things: first, read what he has to say for a while...he grows on you > as you get to see his patient consistency, and second, examine your > discomfort with his postings. Is your discomfort more about you than it is > him? How does it hurt you for him to post often and opinionatedly? Do you > have better answers to the questions he responds to? If so...post away, > instead of bemoaning that he is trying to dominate the group. > > For a while, try to see his gift to you. He is offering what he has to give. > > > Last...have any of you considered how unkind you have been to him? What if > someone were saying these things about you? What if you belonged to a group > that you felt passionately about...like, I don't know...rose gardening, > animal rescue, etc. I bet that as opinionated as Elchanan may be, and even > if he is incorrect about every subject he writes about, I maintain that you > have hurt him. Isn't raw veganism somewhat about raising our lives on all > levels? Isn't kindness and compassion a worthy ideal? > > How easily we disregard the feelings of others. > > To new members: keep your eyes open on this journey. Elchanan is a voice in > the wilderness. > > To complaining members: Let's see your opinions about these topics instead > of your opinion on Elchanan's post count. > > To Elchanan: Thank You. > > Thanks for listening! > Lisa Fine > > Lisa, I appreciate your posting on behalf of your friend. However, in response, I'll say that the issue was a little more than " just Elchanan expressing his opinions " , he expressed some very unfounded and possibly dangerous to some (who don't thrive on the very controversial natural hygiene diet, especially long-term), with no margin for even the mere possibility that it may not be true for all. Secondly, others DO post scientific or I should say " JUST AS SCIENTIFIC " (since we all know there are no hard long-term studies on Natural Hygiene, either) evidence in opposition to his statements, which he either failed to address or honestly just decided to hit below the belt by insulting other members intelligence and " mental health " . He patronized and insulted in some of his posts, yes. That you choose to not see any of that and instead defend him 100% as your friend is a testimonial to just that: he is your friend. Nobody here doubts he's a smart man. But for you to act like he was 'innocently attacked' when he's neither (isn't 100% " innocent " nor has he been attacked, just questioned and then complained about when maybe he deserved it..?!) Anyways, MY honest take is that he has been challenged enough that this group is no fun anymore. It's not " Elchanan's playground " anymore, it's an actual rawfoods group, embracing more than just Elchanan's worldview, and so now he's going to hang out more on his site where of course that is what everybody is there for in the first place. I don't mean that in a rude way at all, but hey, some will see more truth in my take and some will see more truth in your take. I guess it depends if you are an 8/1/1'er and think Doug Graham is God or not. Anyways, that said, I'm sure we'll see Elchanan still and I wish him well in his endeavors. He doesn't teach a wrong way of life, that is for sure, and I certainly 100% back his vegan approach (assuming he means the full lifestyle, which raw foods is sorely lacking). I just don't think he teaches the *only " right " way of life, either. That's the only real difference between me and Elchanan and his followers.... Thanks, Erica > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2007 Report Share Posted July 18, 2007 Lisa, I really enjoyed reading your post. It was from the heart and I can see that you understand where Elchanan is coming from. Thanks for posting. Janet rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of Lisa & Mica Fine Sunday, May 20, 2007 3:29 PM To: rawfood [Raw Food] My Take on Elchanan (WAS) Out of balance Hello Everyone, I wanted to share my outlook on Elchanan. I've been a member of this group for quite a while, and have been a member of Path of Health since just a few days after its formation. Elchanan is a complex man. Honestly, I empathize with what many of you may be feeling : ) In the beginning, I too thought Elchanan seemed like a " know it all " . His posts made me angry, raised my blood pressure. I thought he was the biggest fraud and cult leader wanna be. It seemed he had an answer for everything, and seemed brash and haughty. But...also like many of you, his posts are compelling, and I was found myself not wanting to filter out his messages. For a long time, even *after* joining Path of Health, I read his posts with an eye toward picking them apart, as well as shaking my head at his heavy handedness. BUT.....I noticed that unlike many others who call themselves experts, Elchanan is *consistent* in his message. Not on diet alone, but on physiology as a whole, and even on diverse and unrelated topics. We are not " followers " of Elchanan. I doubt any one of us who cherish his insight agree fully with everything he has to say on every topic. But at least he has an opinion, at least he take the time to answer questions fully. He doesn't advocate one thing this week, and another the next. He doesn't have a website claiming hisself " World Authority " of anything. He doesn't have a commerce site full of the overpriced supplement/superfood/bullsh%* of the moment. All he does is offer his personal insight, and he offers it freely. If you do choose to be a long term member of Path of Health, the tiny member fee is less than the dues at WeightWatchers!!! And how many of us have paid for that or similar things with NO return of insight or genuine community?? If you get to know him, you will see that he is fully human, admits mistakes, has a wonderful sense of humor, is compassionate, quirky, and generous with his words, time, and resources. He is always ready to learn new things. He is not didactic or close minded. My point is not to convine any of you to adore Elchanan. I only ask that you do two things: first, read what he has to say for a while...he grows on you as you get to see his patient consistency, and second, examine your discomfort with his postings. Is your discomfort more about you than it is him? How does it hurt you for him to post often and opinionatedly? Do you have better answers to the questions he responds to? If so...post away, instead of bemoaning that he is trying to dominate the group. For a while, try to see his gift to you. He is offering what he has to give. Last...have any of you considered how unkind you have been to him? What if someone were saying these things about you? What if you belonged to a group that you felt passionately about...like, I don't know...rose gardening, animal rescue, etc. I bet that as opinionated as Elchanan may be, and even if he is incorrect about every subject he writes about, I maintain that you have hurt him. Isn't raw veganism somewhat about raising our lives on all levels? Isn't kindness and compassion a worthy ideal? How easily we disregard the feelings of others. To new members: keep your eyes open on this journey. Elchanan is a voice in the wilderness. To complaining members: Let's see your opinions about these topics instead of your opinion on Elchanan's post count. To Elchanan: Thank You. Thanks for listening! Lisa Fine Lisa, I appreciate your posting on behalf of your friend. However, in response, I'll say that the issue was a little more than " just Elchanan expressing his opinions " , he expressed some very unfounded and possibly dangerous to some (who don't thrive on the very controversial natural hygiene diet, especially long-term), with no margin for even the mere possibility that it may not be true for all. Secondly, others DO post scientific or I should say " JUST AS SCIENTIFIC " (since we all know there are no hard long-term studies on Natural Hygiene, either) evidence in opposition to his statements, which he either failed to address or honestly just decided to hit below the belt by insulting other members intelligence and " mental health " . He patronized and insulted in some of his posts, yes. That you choose to not see any of that and instead defend him 100% as your friend is a testimonial to just that: he is your friend. Nobody here doubts he's a smart man. But for you to act like he was 'innocently attacked' when he's neither (isn't 100% " innocent " nor has he been attacked, just questioned and then complained about when maybe he deserved it..?!) Anyways, MY honest take is that he has been challenged enough that this group is no fun anymore. It's not " Elchanan's playground " anymore, it's an actual rawfoods group, embracing more than just Elchanan's worldview, and so now he's going to hang out more on his site where of course that is what everybody is there for in the first place. I don't mean that in a rude way at all, but hey, some will see more truth in my take and some will see more truth in your take. I guess it depends if you are an 8/1/1'er and think Doug Graham is God or not. Anyways, that said, I'm sure we'll see Elchanan still and I wish him well in his endeavors. He doesn't teach a wrong way of life, that is for sure, and I certainly 100% back his vegan approach (assuming he means the full lifestyle, which raw foods is sorely lacking). I just don't think he teaches the *only " right " way of life, either. That's the only real difference between me and Elchanan and his followers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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