Vores (WAS: Eskimo Longevity and Meat Consumption [Brief])

[Guest guest]

Perfect, Caron! What Joe does not seem to realize, or wish to realize, is

that bacon is filled with all kinds of smell and flavor enhancers,

substances that hyperexcite our senses. These, as a group, have been named

" excitotoxins " , and they are a primary cause of the perceived " attractions "

that most people experience and consider " normal " . There is NOTHING normal

about such attractions. And if you remove all the chemicals, what's left is

the smell of burning fat (in the case of bacon), not particularly appealing

at all to a CLEAN human palette and olfactory system.

 

Joe, from your writings in this group, and from my general experience

working with people on reestablishing their sensory awareness, it seems

plain as day to me that you (nor most others) have never experienced that

level of cleanness in the system, nor therefore that level of sensory

awareness and accuracy.

 

Caron, it seems equally plain to me that you are also walking in that

direction but probably not all the way there yet. The difference is that you

KNOW you don't yet know!!! For this, I admire and congratulate you!

 

This whole topic, reestablishing our sensory awareness, reconnecting with

ourselves in this way, is integral to what I regard as " transitioning " , and

honestly, I am aware of only one or two other teachers of ANY approach to

eating (with the exception of what is called " Instincto " ) who place such

emphasis upon this. But this shall not remain forever so!!!

 

We process high-water-content foods well; we require and process reasonably

well, but not AS well, a small amount of fats, most of which can healthfully

come from tender leafy greens. Everything else just sits in our digestive

system for too long: starches and sugars begin to ferment and proteins begin

to putrefy inside us. Neither of these conditions results in optimal,

high-performance living.

 

Best,

Elchanan

_____

 

rawfood [rawfood ] On Behalf Of

Caron

Friday, September 14, 2007 8:31 PM

rawfood

Re: [Raw Food] Re: Vores (WAS: Eskimo Longevity and Meat

Consumption [brief])

 

 

-

Joe Postma

>Show me a child or vegetarian who's mouth does

not water at the smell of bacon cooking (or BBQ whatever)...

 

My son ) Hated the taste and texture of meat until we (the adults in his

life, therefore his teachers and examples of human living) told him it was

good, then he forced himself to eat it, gagging on every bite. We trained

him to say meat is yummy, but he'll choose a banana (or other fruit) every

time. In fact, most toddlers I know choose fruit over whatever crap their

parents are trying to feed them - my neice amused my parents and hers by

eating bites of fruit in between the spagetti her mother was feeding her. A

friend's baby threw her pancake on the floor to grab my fruit salad. Also,

most women I know who've been pregnant have felt ill at the smell of meat,

cooking, cooked, or raw, at some point during their pregnancy, or even all

the way through it. Yet we force ourselves to eat it because " the baby

needs protein " .

 

Pavlov's dogs salivated not because of food, but because of the sound of a

bell - we, too, are the products of our training. We salivate because we're

trained to believe that meat is good for us. The child who has not yet been

trained, does not. This is why my son is thriving, and I'm still fighting

addictions.

 

Caron

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I have been listening to the same retoric for a while and I thought I

would ask a question. I am a farmer and raise both crops and animals,

which I and my family both consume, does this mean that my life style

dosen't conform to your meaning of healty I am in my sixtys an my

father live to be 99 and grand father 106 and we are on the same land

doing the same thing. I was born at home as was dad and granddad, we

work hard and rejoyce at the fruits of our labors. Meat has been a

staple of our diets as whell as fresh vegatables and fruit, I am not

over weight and I haven't been sick since I was a child. Pleas let me

know what if any thing I doing wrong. I know that the good book says

that all things were put on this earth for our use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-- In rawfood , " Elchanan " <Elchanan wrote:

> Perfect, Caron! What Joe does not seem to realize, or wish to

realize, is

> that bacon is filled with all kinds of smell and flavor enhancers,

> substances that hyperexcite our senses. These, as a group, have

been named

> " excitotoxins " , and they are a primary cause of the

perceived " attractions "

> that most people experience and consider " normal " . There is NOTHING

normal

> about such attractions. And if you remove all the chemicals, what's

left is

> the smell of burning fat (in the case of bacon), not particularly

appealing

> at all to a CLEAN human palette and olfactory system.

>

> Joe, from your writings in this group, and from my general

experience

> working with people on reestablishing their sensory awareness, it

seems

> plain as day to me that you (nor most others) have never

experienced that

> level of cleanness in the system, nor therefore that level of

sensory

> awareness and accuracy.

>

> Caron, it seems equally plain to me that you are also walking in

that

> direction but probably not all the way there yet. The difference is

that you

> KNOW you don't yet know!!! For this, I admire and congratulate you!

>

> This whole topic, reestablishing our sensory awareness,

reconnecting with

> ourselves in this way, is integral to what I regard

as " transitioning " , and

> honestly, I am aware of only one or two other teachers of ANY

approach to

> eating (with the exception of what is called " Instincto " ) who place

such

> emphasis upon this. But this shall not remain forever so!!!

>

> We process high-water-content foods well; we require and process

reasonably

> well, but not AS well, a small amount of fats, most of which can

healthfully

> come from tender leafy greens. Everything else just sits in our

digestive

> system for too long: starches and sugars begin to ferment and

proteins begin

> to putrefy inside us. Neither of these conditions results in

optimal,

> high-performance living.

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

> _____

>

> rawfood [rawfood ] On

Behalf Of

> Caron

> Friday, September 14, 2007 8:31 PM

> rawfood

> Re: [Raw Food] Re: Vores (WAS: Eskimo Longevity and Meat

> Consumption [brief])

>

>

> -

> Joe Postma

> >Show me a child or vegetarian who's mouth does

> not water at the smell of bacon cooking (or BBQ whatever)...

>

> My son ) Hated the taste and texture of meat until we (the adults

in his

> life, therefore his teachers and examples of human living) told him

it was

> good, then he forced himself to eat it, gagging on every bite. We

trained

> him to say meat is yummy, but he'll choose a banana (or other

fruit) every

> time. In fact, most toddlers I know choose fruit over whatever

crap their

> parents are trying to feed them - my neice amused my parents and

hers by

> eating bites of fruit in between the spagetti her mother was

feeding her. A

> friend's baby threw her pancake on the floor to grab my fruit

salad. Also,

> most women I know who've been pregnant have felt ill at the smell

of meat,

> cooking, cooked, or raw, at some point during their pregnancy, or

even all

> the way through it. Yet we force ourselves to eat it because " the

baby

> needs protein " .

>

> Pavlov's dogs salivated not because of food, but because of the

sound of a

> bell - we, too, are the products of our training. We salivate

because we're

> trained to believe that meat is good for us. The child who has not

yet been

> trained, does not. This is why my son is thriving, and I'm still

fighting

> addictions.

>

> Caron

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, it seems plain as say to me that you are a fanatic, and you seem

to not be properly reading my posts - simply seeing that I mention the

word meat in a positive way and then make some silly comment about it.

All I ever say is that OCCASIONAL meat eating shouldn't be a problem.

Given today's society and social norm's and requirements, it simply

makes life for MOST people a lot easier.

 

Look, if you're some retired old man or old lady with little to do, or

some middle aged wife with a family, i.e., someone who longer has need

for a social life or close friends, then yes by all means experiment

with completely taking meat out of your diet. It will likely be the

best thing for you. But for those who are new or young and struggling

with it, and who want to still go out with the team and enjoy a beer

and burger night after playing sports, by all means if all you can

only do is 90% raw well then that IS GREAT! The raw food you eat WILL

EASILY buffer and cleanse the occasional bout with cooked food and meat.

 

The excitotoxin thing is interesting...but again you completely took

my words out of context. This is getting repetitive. I would never

say to eat toxin filled meat. I always say that if you do eat it, get

a clean organic source! Excitotoxins are things like MSG and

aspartame, and these are not added to organic meat and they ARE NOT

found in natural, organic meat.

 

 

It is great that you push 100% raw like you do. That's wonderful. I

suppose your niche needs to filled so that the average person can take

it with a grain of salt and form their own stance and lifestyle. At

the same time my niche is one of moderation; but perhaps the

impression for the average person is that raw is not as important as

it is, that you can still eat a lot of bad food and only need small

amounts of raw to have it " work " . Maybe that's what you see and are

uncomfortable with. But I do always say " predominantly plant based

diet, OCCASIONAL meat " . And I always specify that " occasional " means

once or thrice a month.

 

Anyway, I've always liked reading your posts, you do have a wealth of

knowledge on eating raw. But I would ask that you not make the

personal attacks that you do, or offer physiological analyses on

others' state of health when you've never met them as a way to argue

that they must not know what they're talking about. That's really

silly and annoying.

This site is A LOT MORE FUN when it is a democracy, but I find you try

to run things a little too much. Offering your opinion is GREAT, but

trying to SHUT OUT other people from giving their own opinions is not.

 

Cheers

 

Joe

[Guest guest]

greetings all,

 

I haven't posted on this board in a really long time, and please

forgive me for that - life has taken over..

 

I have read all the posts in the abovementioned thread, and I'm a

little dismayed..firstly Joe, if you choose to eat meat, fine, go

right ahead.. no one here has a command on your conscience, and no

one here can tell you what you should or should not do.. you know

better than anyone else here what is and isn't good for you.. if you

believe eating meat is ok sometimes, well, no one here can say or do

anything about it, can they? so I don't understand why this argument

has gone on so long..

 

what flipped me was when you accused Elchanan of making personal

attacks on people - I don't see anywhere that he has done that, and

I don't believe he needs my help to defend him, but I can see a

clear cut case of the pot calling the kettle black when you resorted

to referring to him as a fanatic, and as some old man or old lady

without a life, telling others here how to get one, and how he

doesn't have his finger on nature's pulse..

 

the way I see it is like this - this board, and others like it, are

here for EVERYONE to present their ideas, experiences, and whatnot..

you can either choose to take what's being presented, or you can do

your own homework and design something that better suits you. this

is a rawfood board - somehow, I rather doubt that it also had raw

meat as part of its theme, but I could be wrong..I assumed when I

joined this board that it meant rawfoods as in fruits and vegetables

in their uncooked state. if I am incorrect in my assumption, someone

please correct me. but I don't think it's a place to have a tantrum

because you disagree with what someone else had to say, or because

you feel ganged up on..

 

you're going to think I am picking on you, but I want to interject

one more thing... if you believe meat isn't the result of murder,

what then, do you believe it is? since someone had to die to produce

you with that lovely bacon you're so fond of describing, or the

wonderful 5 oz organic steak.. someone did indeed have their life

taken from them in order to provide those things to you, and

everyone else who chooses to consume it. I'm fairly certain if you

could actually speak to any of those animals whose lives were

skanked, they'd all have the same thing about it to say to you.. I

don't want to die in order to fill someone else's belly.

 

and don't you find it a little interesting how all these various

diseases come about from all the good meat people so willingly

plough down their gullets? I have yet to hear of anything like that

occuring in anyone who ate a plant based diet, though I'm open to

being proved that this has happened..anyway, that's all I wanted to

say..

 

YS

Silver DD

[Guest guest]

Hello S DD, I appreciate your insight.

 

Yah, this is getting blown way out of proportion. And yes, people

(including me) get way too sensitive on here.

 

RAW MEAT is NOT to be eaten. It should be cooked if you eat it at

all. Although, following the Eskimo discussion, perhaps someone with

insight into eating raw fish and blubber could post here and share it!

Would be interesting to hear about..but I don't think it is going to

happen. So no, raw only refers to fruit and veggies...not meat lol!

 

I don't think my posts have ever looked like tantrum's, and it was

Enchalan who began the subtle jabbing. Again, you need to properly

read my posts instead of focusing on the word " meat " . I never said

anywhere people should shove down huge quantities of meat...I don't

know why some of you people keep freaking out about that. All I say

is, a small amount isn't going to hurt you if you do decide to have

it, and I present historical, anatomical, and evolutionary evidence to

support that it is " natural " . Arguments that only eating raw is

" natural " do not fit well with evolutionary history, and so can not

really be called " natural " by definition.

 

There is plenty of evidence that shows we are supposed to eat a

predominantly RAW fruit and veggie diet, with an occasional serving of

meat. Will you please remember that I said " predominantly raw fruit

and veggie " , and not skew my words to say " all you should eat is loads

of meat " ? I would appreciate that. It would save a lot of bickering.

 

As far as murder goes: there are many logical and philosophical

problems with calling eating meat murder. If killing for food a

" lower " animal is to be murder, what will we call it when a " lower "

animal kills a human for food? Clearly, all rights being equal under

your definition, this should be called murder as well. But then what?

Do we imprison the lion that ate us, or do we let it go because it is

a " lower " animal and didn't know any better? But if we do that,

doesn't that contradict the idea that " lower " animals have such rights

as such that killing THEM for food is murder? Or do we try to

convince the lion that it should eat fruit and veggies because killing

another animal is murder? It makes no sense very quickly! And as

others and I have pointed out before, dying is a natural part of life,

and life consuming other life is what life is all about.

 

Have a good day

 

Joe

 

 

 

 

rawfood , " Silver Devi Dasi " <silvervcc wrote:

>

> greetings all,

>

> I haven't posted on this board in a really long time, and please

> forgive me for that - life has taken over..

>

> I have read all the posts in the abovementioned thread, and I'm a

> little dismayed..firstly Joe, if you choose to eat meat, fine, go

> right ahead.. no one here has a command on your conscience, and no

> one here can tell you what you should or should not do.. you know

> better than anyone else here what is and isn't good for you.. if you

> believe eating meat is ok sometimes, well, no one here can say or do

> anything about it, can they? so I don't understand why this argument

> has gone on so long..

>

> what flipped me was when you accused Elchanan of making personal

> attacks on people - I don't see anywhere that he has done that, and

> I don't believe he needs my help to defend him, but I can see a

> clear cut case of the pot calling the kettle black when you resorted

> to referring to him as a fanatic, and as some old man or old lady

> without a life, telling others here how to get one, and how he

> doesn't have his finger on nature's pulse..

>

> the way I see it is like this - this board, and others like it, are

> here for EVERYONE to present their ideas, experiences, and whatnot..

> you can either choose to take what's being presented, or you can do

> your own homework and design something that better suits you. this

> is a rawfood board - somehow, I rather doubt that it also had raw

> meat as part of its theme, but I could be wrong..I assumed when I

> joined this board that it meant rawfoods as in fruits and vegetables

> in their uncooked state. if I am incorrect in my assumption, someone

> please correct me. but I don't think it's a place to have a tantrum

> because you disagree with what someone else had to say, or because

> you feel ganged up on..

>

> you're going to think I am picking on you, but I want to interject

> one more thing... if you believe meat isn't the result of murder,

> what then, do you believe it is? since someone had to die to produce

> you with that lovely bacon you're so fond of describing, or the

> wonderful 5 oz organic steak.. someone did indeed have their life

> taken from them in order to provide those things to you, and

> everyone else who chooses to consume it. I'm fairly certain if you

> could actually speak to any of those animals whose lives were

> skanked, they'd all have the same thing about it to say to you.. I

> don't want to die in order to fill someone else's belly.

>

> and don't you find it a little interesting how all these various

> diseases come about from all the good meat people so willingly

> plough down their gullets? I have yet to hear of anything like that

> occuring in anyone who ate a plant based diet, though I'm open to

> being proved that this has happened..anyway, that's all I wanted to

> say..

>

> YS

> Silver DD

>

[Guest guest]

> Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. To some it

is obvious

 

 

This is very true. Many others have noted this and commented on it.

Yes, myself of course, but actually I'm referring to the many who have

written me personally about this - who like Silver just don't post.

 

 

if you want to use such emotive terms

> as 'murder', then you should realise that the plants we eat were

alive too,

> healthy thriving living individuals. It is organic life living off

organic

> life. If you want to call that murder, then whatever we (and that

includes

> you) eat is a result of murder!

>> and I am certain that if you were to ask plants the same they would

respond in

> similar fashion. oh, and the response would be more simply, " I don't

want to

> die " . Your statement leaves open the possibility of haha noble death.

 

 

I really this argument is ridiculous. Does this mean that people who

kill their children should not be held accountable or faulted because

most of America mows their lawn, and they are essentially the same

thing? According to the above, it does...... Nuff said. The basis of

suffering lies in science, and it revolves around the presence of a

nervous system, for starters. To compare the slitting of a tortured

cows neck for a cultural barbecue to the picking of a flower is just so

insulting to life. Vegetation and Animals are inherently different.

Honest to God.

[Guest guest]

rawfood , " Elchanan " <Elchanan wrote:

>

> No, Joe and Neal, we are not omnivores. Our digestive system,

typically

> 11-12 times the length of our torso, is quite dissimilar from that

of other

> omnivores and is poorly designed to process animal flesh. Our

mouth, saliva,

> indeed our entire system is designed to process plant-based foods,

and

> high-water-content foods at that. Our digestive systems CAN process

other

> things, but only at a very high cost, in metabolic terms.

>

> Those who would eat meat make this claim, and of course they

represent a

> clear majority, but there is no anatomical connection to support

this claim.

> No amount of chanting, " The Earth is flat, the Earth is flat " will

make it

> so. Further, once we stop eating meat for awhile, we typically come

to find

> the thought of doing so repugnant; that is, we naturally and

gracefully

> return to our roots in Nature's design.

>

> You can hold onto this belief if you wish, of course, but it is

false

> nonetheless.

>

> Best,

> Elchanan

 

 

This is absolutely 100% true, rooted in science, anatomy, biology,

you name it.

[Guest guest]

On Saturday 15 September 2007 16:53, Silver Devi Dasi wrote:

> what flipped me was when you accused Elchanan of making personal

> attacks on people - I don't see anywhere that he has done that

 

Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. To some it is

obvious

 

> you're going to think I am picking on you, but I want to interject

> one more thing... if you believe meat isn't the result of murder,

> what then, do you believe it is?

 

I'm sure I don't need to defend Joe, but if you want to use such emotive terms

as 'murder', then you should realise that the plants we eat were alive too,

healthy thriving living individuals. It is organic life living off organic

life. If you want to call that murder, then whatever we (and that includes

you) eat is a result of murder!

 

> I'm fairly certain if you

> could actually speak to any of those animals whose lives were

> skanked, they'd all have the same thing about it to say to you.. I

> don't want to die in order to fill someone else's belly.

 

and I am certain that if you were to ask plants the same they would respond in

similar fashion. oh, and the response would be more simply, " I don't want to

die " . Your statement leaves open the possibility of haha noble death.

 

Nothing that is alive willingly relinquishes that life, it is the nature of

living itself!

 

neal.

 

and just for the record, I don't eat meat.

[Guest guest]

>Given this is a raw food site, we find a lot of " meat is

> murder " fanatics here.

 

Look at what our society does to one of the most docile creatures on

this earth. Industrial farms feed cows food not meant for their

consumption, including grain and blood, we pump them full of

antibiotics, cram them with other cows in lots, separate them from

their calves, give them growth hormones that make them produce 40,000

gallons of milk (instead of the natural duration of the calf's needs),

cut off dairy cow's tails so humans don't get swatted while stealing

the milk, spray their skin with pesticides to make up for the lost

tail, then cram the cows into a truck and transport them to a

slaughterhouse where they are funneled into a single line as a man

stands with a gun ready to shoot each cow in the head, one at a time,

after which the cow is raised onto meat hooks and moved through the

line of atrocious acts, sometimes AND often, still conscious.

 

Who is the fanatic here?

 

Janet

 

rawfood , " Joe Postma " <joepostma wrote:

>

> I certainly appreciate these sort of anecdotal reasoning methods...I

> use them myself occasionally. But in the end, anecdotes are simply

that.

> However, that is cool hearing about kids refusing meat and pregnant

> women refusing it. I've seen and heard that myself as well, and been

> annoyed as the mothers shove the crap food into their child's mouth

> because they are so worried the child needs more protein or calcium or

> whatever.

> On the other hand, I have been witness to a case where a child was

> raised vegetarian by vegetarian parents, and who was sickly and pale

> and week, and prone to illness. He (the child) improved when meat was

> introduced. Who knows why, maybe just simple deficiencies. But

> again, another anecdote.

>

> This is why I always return to science. I suppose I am more

> interested in eating a " natural " diet than anything else. I think an

> honest analysis of our anatomy, evolutionary and written history, and

> long-term nutritional needs indicates the need for a fruit and veggie

> based diet, but occasionally including a small amount of meat.

>

> Heck, I spend too much time defending eating meat on here...when I am

> one of the biggest raw veggie fans out there. I guess the difference

> is I'm NOT a fanatic. So when I see the " fanatics " making claims they

> are unqualified to make or are obviously mis-informed, I like to offer

> the other side of the argument. I'm open to being the " wrong " one too

> though Given this is a raw food site, we find a lot of " meat is

> murder " fanatics here. And I just can't stand that haha.

>

> Cheers

>

> Joe

>

>

> rawfood , " Caron " <carongroups@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > -

> > Joe Postma

> > >Show me a child or vegetarian who's mouth does

> > not water at the smell of bacon cooking (or BBQ whatever)...

> >

> > My son ) Hated the taste and texture of meat until we (the adults

> in his

> > life, therefore his teachers and examples of human living) told him

> it was

> > good, then he forced himself to eat it, gagging on every bite. We

> trained

> > him to say meat is yummy, but he'll choose a banana (or other fruit)

> every

> > time. In fact, most toddlers I know choose fruit over whatever crap

> their

> > parents are trying to feed them - my neice amused my parents and

> hers by

> > eating bites of fruit in between the spagetti her mother was feeding

> her. A

> > friend's baby threw her pancake on the floor to grab my fruit salad.

> Also,

> > most women I know who've been pregnant have felt ill at the smell of

> meat,

> > cooking, cooked, or raw, at some point during their pregnancy, or

> even all

> > the way through it. Yet we force ourselves to eat it because " the

> baby needs

> > protein " .

> >

> > Pavlov's dogs salivated not because of food, but because of the

> sound of a

> > bell - we, too, are the products of our training. We salivate

> because we're

> > trained to believe that meat is good for us. The child who has not

> yet been

> > trained, does not. This is why my son is thriving, and I'm still

> fighting

> > addictions.

> >

> > Caron

> >

>

[Guest guest]

On Saturday 15 September 2007 21:06, Janet FitzGerald wrote:

> Who is the fanatic here?

>

> Janet

 

You are and your post is evidence. You selectively take the most dispicable

treatment of animals and shoehorn it into the conversation. NO-ONE said that

the kind of treatment you describe is in any way acceptable. But also it is

not 'our' society that does such things, but the food INDUSTRY. In fact you

say this yourself in your post. Your post makes it sound like Joe and myself

condone such activity.

 

How dare you!

 

(but that is what fanatics are like, disingenuous)

 

There are some people like myself that do not consider mankind a superior

species, but one of many many different and equal species, ALL with an equal

right to life.

 

neal.

[Guest guest]

Hi everyone!!

We are rainer. susan. kim

Practicing herbalists since 1976

I thought this group was about plant food {fruit n vegetables ???

Why are we talking about meat eating??

I am sure there are groups out there who want to talk about meat.

Treating disease now for 31 years now.

This is just are 2 cents of wisdom { i hope we dont offend anyone

Meat is second hand food.

We can go on n on what meat does to the body.

Just VERY disappointed that this group would want to talk about meat

We are VERY sorry we joined!!!!

 

BE WELL!!!!

rainer. susan. kim

On Sep 15, 2007, at 11:43 AM, Joe Postma wrote:

 

> Well, it seems plain as say to me that you are a fanatic, and you seem

> to not be properly reading my posts - simply seeing that I mention the

> word meat in a positive way and then make some silly comment about it.

> All I ever say is that OCCASIONAL meat eating shouldn't be a problem.

> Given today's society and social norm's and requirements, it simply

> makes life for MOST people a lot easier.

>

> Look, if you're some retired old man or old lady with little to do, or

> some middle aged wife with a family, i.e., someone who longer has need

> for a social life or close friends, then yes by all means experiment

> with completely taking meat out of your diet. It will likely be the

> best thing for you. But for those who are new or young and struggling

> with it, and who want to still go out with the team and enjoy a beer

> and burger night after playing sports, by all means if all you can

> only do is 90% raw well then that IS GREAT! The raw food you eat WILL

> EASILY buffer and cleanse the occasional bout with cooked food and

> meat.

>

> The excitotoxin thing is interesting...but again you completely took

> my words out of context. This is getting repetitive. I would never

> say to eat toxin filled meat. I always say that if you do eat it, get

> a clean organic source! Excitotoxins are things like MSG and

> aspartame, and these are not added to organic meat and they ARE NOT

> found in natural, organic meat.

>

> It is great that you push 100% raw like you do. That's wonderful. I

> suppose your niche needs to filled so that the average person can take

> it with a grain of salt and form their own stance and lifestyle. At

> the same time my niche is one of moderation; but perhaps the

> impression for the average person is that raw is not as important as

> it is, that you can still eat a lot of bad food and only need small

> amounts of raw to have it " work " . Maybe that's what you see and are

> uncomfortable with. But I do always say " predominantly plant based

> diet, OCCASIONAL meat " . And I always specify that " occasional " means

> once or thrice a month.

>

> Anyway, I've always liked reading your posts, you do have a wealth of

> knowledge on eating raw. But I would ask that you not make the

> personal attacks that you do, or offer physiological analyses on

> others' state of health when you've never met them as a way to argue

> that they must not know what they're talking about. That's really

> silly and annoying.

> This site is A LOT MORE FUN when it is a democracy, but I find you try

> to run things a little too much. Offering your opinion is GREAT, but

> trying to SHUT OUT other people from giving their own opinions is not.

>

> Cheers

>

> Joe

>

>

>

 

 

[Guest guest]

I never thought for a second it would make anyone happy to read my

post. I grew up eating meat, and I've worked in cold guts, too. And

now that the shroud of ignorance (at least on that matter) has been

lifted, I choose not to be a part of that suffering. Not many people

are willing to confront the suffering that precedes that burger

(cooked flesh) they hold comfortably between two pillows of bread.

 

>NO-ONE said that

> the kind of treatment you describe is in any way acceptable.

 

Eating meat in any quantity is a vote that says it is acceptable.

And, perhaps there are those who are becoming conscious while

struggling with their addiction to flesh. It is a choice, is all, and

not fanaticism, to respect all living creatures.

 

Janet

 

rawfood , neal <kneel.pardoe wrote:

>

> On Saturday 15 September 2007 21:06, Janet FitzGerald wrote:

> > Who is the fanatic here?

> >

> > Janet

>

> You are and your post is evidence. You selectively take the most

dispicable

> treatment of animals and shoehorn it into the conversation. NO-ONE

said that

> the kind of treatment you describe is in any way acceptable. But

also it is

> not 'our' society that does such things, but the food INDUSTRY. In

fact you

> say this yourself in your post. Your post makes it sound like Joe

and myself

> condone such activity.

>

> How dare you!

>

> (but that is what fanatics are like, disingenuous)

>

> There are some people like myself that do not consider mankind a

superior

> species, but one of many many different and equal species, ALL with

an equal

> right to life.

>

> neal.

>

[Guest guest]

<<....simply seeing that I mention the

word meat in a positive way and then make some silly comment about it...

 

.....if you're some retired old man or old lady with little to do, or

some middle aged wife with a family, i.e., someone who longer has need

for a social life or close friends, then yes by all means experiment

with completely taking meat out of your diet. It will likely be the

best thing for you. But for those who are new or young and struggling

with it, and who want to still go out with the team and enjoy a beer

and burger night after playing sports, by all means if all you can

only do is 90% raw well then that IS GREAT! ....

 

 

But I would ask that you not make the

personal attacks that you do, or offer physiological analyses on

others' state of health when you've never met them as a way to argue

that they must not know what they're talking about. That's really

silly and annoying.

This site is A LOT MORE FUN when it is a democracy, but I find you try

to run things a little too much. Offering your opinion is GREAT, but

trying to SHUT OUT other people from giving their own opinions is not.

 

Joe>>

 

Ah - Joe - you sound a bit attacking... this is VERY much a democracy.

 

....some retired old lady....

 

Grama Louise

 

 

 

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

<<..and don't you find it a little interesting how all these various

diseases come about from all the good meat people so willingly

plough down their gullets? I have yet to hear of anything like that

occuring in anyone who ate a plant based diet, though I'm open to

being proved that this has happened..anyway, that's all I wanted to

say..

 

YS

Silver DD>>

 

Yes - I do indeed find it interesting!!!

 

Louise

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

<<RAW MEAT is NOT to be eaten. It should be cooked if you eat it at

all. Although, following the Eskimo discussion, perhaps someone with

insight into eating raw fish and blubber could post here and share it!

Would be interesting to hear about..but I don't think it is going to

happen. So no, raw only refers to fruit and veggies...not meat lol!>>

 

Joe

 

_http://www.wewant2live.com/_ (http://www.wewant2live.com/)

 

Louise

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Yes, Joe, I agree, perhaps this is not the proper forum to tout meat

eating or even defending it.

 

I - for one am for what works for you.

 

If you find health eating meat then perhaps that is right for you.

 

Louise

 

rawfood , " Joe Postma " <joepostma wrote:

>

> I certainly appreciate these sort of anecdotal reasoning methods...I

> use them myself occasionally. But in the end, anecdotes are simply

that.

> However, that is cool hearing about kids refusing meat and pregnant

> women refusing it. I've seen and heard that myself as well, and

been

> annoyed as the mothers shove the crap food into their child's mouth

> because they are so worried the child needs more protein or calcium

or

> whatever.

> On the other hand, I have been witness to a case where a child was

> raised vegetarian by vegetarian parents, and who was sickly and pale

> and week, and prone to illness. He (the child) improved when meat

was

> introduced. Who knows why, maybe just simple deficiencies. But

> again, another anecdote.

>

> This is why I always return to science. I suppose I am more

> interested in eating a " natural " diet than anything else. I think

an

> honest analysis of our anatomy, evolutionary and written history,

and

> long-term nutritional needs indicates the need for a fruit and

veggie

> based diet, but occasionally including a small amount of meat.

>

> Heck, I spend too much time defending eating meat on here...when I

am

> one of the biggest raw veggie fans out there. I guess the

difference

> is I'm NOT a fanatic. So when I see the " fanatics " making claims

they

> are unqualified to make or are obviously mis-informed, I like to

offer

> the other side of the argument. I'm open to being the " wrong " one

too

> though Given this is a raw food site, we find a lot of " meat is

> murder " fanatics here. And I just can't stand that haha.

>

> Cheers

>

> Joe

>

>

> rawfood , " Caron " <carongroups@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > -

> > Joe Postma

> > >Show me a child or vegetarian who's mouth does

> > not water at the smell of bacon cooking (or BBQ whatever)...

> >

> > My son ) Hated the taste and texture of meat until we (the

adults

> in his

> > life, therefore his teachers and examples of human living) told

him

> it was

> > good, then he forced himself to eat it, gagging on every bite. We

> trained

> > him to say meat is yummy, but he'll choose a banana (or other

fruit)

> every

> > time. In fact, most toddlers I know choose fruit over whatever

crap

> their

> > parents are trying to feed them - my neice amused my parents and

> hers by

> > eating bites of fruit in between the spagetti her mother was

feeding

> her. A

> > friend's baby threw her pancake on the floor to grab my fruit

salad.

> Also,

> > most women I know who've been pregnant have felt ill at the smell

of

> meat,

> > cooking, cooked, or raw, at some point during their pregnancy, or

> even all

> > the way through it. Yet we force ourselves to eat it because " the

> baby needs

> > protein " .

> >

> > Pavlov's dogs salivated not because of food, but because of the

> sound of a

> > bell - we, too, are the products of our training. We salivate

> because we're

> > trained to believe that meat is good for us. The child who has not

> yet been

> > trained, does not. This is why my son is thriving, and I'm still

> fighting

> > addictions.

> >

> > Caron

> >

>