The Downside Of 8/1/1 (WAS: Diabetes Type 2; Herbs & Treatments)

[Guest guest]

It's only fair that the fact that not only do some become grossly

deficient and/or ill on long-term 8/1/1, but to also point out the

scary reality that complete and total disregard towards anybody's

negative experiences on 8/1/1 is practiced not only by the minority

on this board who continually prescribe 8/1/1 to one and all, no

matter what and despite the negative experiences of a good number of

people, but by Doug Graham himself. The following is from Rhio's site

(www.rawfoodinfo.com):

---------

 

Fruitarian Diet and 80/10/10 Version of the Fruitarian Raw Diet -

Part 1

 

Rhio: 80/10/10 is a fruitarian diet with very low protein and fat.

It's called 80/10/10 because it advocates 80% fruit or carbohydrate,

10% protein and 10% fat.

 

The impetus for this discussion of the fruitarian and 80/10/10 diets

began over one year ago when I received various emails from Chase

Masters (chasemasters2003), who told me that a certain

website was eliminating the posts of anyone who had a negative

experience with the fruitarian or 80/10/10 diet. This did not appeal

to my sense of fairness and transparency and so I said I would make a

spot on my website to post the letters and discussion.

 

My idea of a balanced and well-rounded raw food diet for humans

includes foods from all categories, except meat, fish and dairy. I

believe in being INCLUSIVE, rather than exclusive, including as many

different types and varieties of fruits and vegetables as possible

with moderate consumption of soaked and/or sprouted nuts and seeds. I

also include roots, baby sprouts, leafy greens, soaked and sprouted

legumes, soaked and sprouted grains in moderation, bee products,

fermented seed cheese & yogurt, sauerkraut, wild vegetables

(sometimes called edible weeds), sea vegetables, good quality oils,

small amounts of dehydrated snacks occasionally, etc. I also believe

in low heat processed, food-based supplements when needed or desired.

 

So, from the above, you can surmise that the fruitarian diet or

80/10/10 version of it would not be my idea of a balanced approach to

the raw food diet. 80/10/10 seems to be a rigid standard to try to

fit everybody into. People are very individual in their lifestyles

and nutritional needs and so some people might need more protein

and/or fat than others. One size does not fit all.

 

However, I do hope to present the discussion in a fair way and have

sought out people who believe they are successfully implementing a

fruitarian or 80/10/10 diet and included their letters or my

interviews with them or links to their websites. Dr. Fred Bisci has

also consented to share his views pertaining to fruitarian diets.

(Please listen to my interview with Dr. Bisci on: TribecaRadio.net

this week - later it will be archived). Dr. Bisci's perspective and

some of my own thoughts will appear scattered throughout the hotline

series, but the letters really stand on their own. Some of the

letters are quite long but I did not want to edit anything out. This

series is really meant for people who are interested in either the

fruitarian or 80/10/10 fruitarian diet and are either on it or

contemplating implementing it. Some letters are in a series of two or

more as they were sharing with the group in the chatroom. There are

some people on a fruitarian diet that include raw meat, fish and

dairy - that is the subject for another discussion and so will not be

included here, except in passing, or as mentioned in some of the

letters.

 

The entire Newsletter will be sent in several installments. Some

people have agreed to include their email addresses in case you want

to communicate with them further about their experiences. I thank all

those who have agreed to share and participate.

 

Dr. Graham sent me a communication in which he advised me to contact

every person to make sure the letters were not altered and that they

were genuine and I have taken his advice. I consider Dr. Graham a

friend and support and agree with many of his ideas. On my part I do

not consider that we all have to agree on every single issue to

continue to collaborate in the bigger picture of opening up the

information and discussion of the raw food diet and lifestyle to the

mainstream community at large.

 

Dr. Graham's website for info on 80/10/10:

http://www.foodnsport.com/mambo2/index.php?

option=com_content & task=category & sectionid=2 & id=66 & Itemid=60

 

Also: http://www.vegsource.com/talk/raw/index.html

 

In a message dated 9/14/04 chasemasters2003 writes:

 

from Chase to Rhio:

 

 

Yes, Exciting to read your findings on the raw diet.

....

 

I loved your book, especially the extremely well researched info on

hybridizing and genetic engineering. You inspired me to go and study

wild foods here, now I get about 20% of my food that way. Out of all

the raw teachers I have the warmest spot for you.

 

I too have been at the center of many people contacting me with their

experiences on a raw diet, low fat ala Doug Grahams 811 program.

 

I used to think he knew what he was talking about more then most

teachers on raw, turns out because his program is so restrictive on

the foods it eliminates or reduces that people have actually

collapsed, passed out, woke up in hospitals, had teeth and hair fall

out etc etc...really the most dangerous of all the raw diets,

especially for an athlete. This may come as a surprize to you as it

would have me, just read the emails of people that have been on it

longterm to find out. Really incredible stuff.

 

The responses I got from people on it have been downright startling,

if you would like me to share some of these emails with you I'd be

happy to. I have their permission. I posted their emails on Doug

Grahams Vegsource.com rawchat room that he hosts just yesterday, and

along with the questions that ensued from all of the members he took

them all off the site, or at least I expect gave his authorization to

do so, as well as every post I made there since February of this

year. He really didn't want the genie to get out of the bottle, this

is some very hot information in the raw community in these peoples

years of experiences on a low fat raw vegan diet.

 

I also am grateful to be on your mailing list at this time, If you

would like to be on our user group email of about 50-100 people who

are users and researchers discussing raw vegan and Doug's 811 let me

know too, just give me the email you want all of it to go to. It

won't flood you with emails, just an occasional one here and there.

 

Dear Denise,

 

 

Thank you for giving your permission. I appreciate it. I'm really

sorry you had such a poor experience with this version of the raw

diet, but thank goodness that you are well now. ...

 

Once my hotlines go out to my elist, they are then posted on my

website in the Hotlines Section, so they are always there for new

people also to peruse.

 

Do you want me to include your email in the hotline or leave it out?

Please let me know and thank you again.

 

With blessings and peace,

 

Rhio

 

In a message dated 1/18/05 2:04:19 PM,

Denise (sapphireflies) writes:

 

 

Rhio,

 

I'd love to share my 80/10/10 experiences with you, and have them

included in the hotline. Feel free to use anything from the e-mail

Chase forwarded you, and I'd be happy to answer any specific

questions you might have. ...

 

I think this hotline is a wonderful idea--right now, there isn't an

accurate representation of everyone's experiences on 80/10/10. Any

negative or " challenging " posts seem to get deleted from the

Vegsource board. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

 

Feel free to include my e-mail in the hotline.

 

from Denise:

 

Hi Chase,

 

Here is the long account of my raw vegan " journey. " I'll try to

include everything that is even remotely relevant so that you can get

a clear picture of my history. And yes, I'm probably the " girl under

20 " that she referred to Although I do know at least two other

girls my age who ran into problems similar to my own while attempting

the 80/10/10 diet. (I can provide details on them, too, if you're

interested; in a nutshell, one switched off of a high-fruit raw diet

and now follows Gabriel Cousens' recommendations, complete with a

multitude of supplements, but she is still very underweight. The

other, after several years attempting raw vegan diets, switched to a

partially raw/partially cooked " Weston A. Price " -style diet with meat

and is doing extremely well.)

 

For starters, I am currently 17 years old. I became a vegetarian when

I was 8, by my own choice. When I turned 11, I developed something

like a chronic flu that lasted the entire year--constant congestion,

trouble breathing, fatigue, circles under my eyes, and so forth. No

one could figure out was wrong with me; doctors put me on all sorts

of medication, gave me skin tests for allergies, and blood tests. The

medication didn't work, and all the tests came back normal. I got a

CAT scan which revealed inflamed adenoids (near the tonsils), so I

went in for surgery to have them removed. The surgeons said they'd

never seen adenoids that were so infected. Unfortunately, even after

they were out, none of my symptoms improved.

 

I finally went to a naturopathic physician who immediately suspected

a food allergy (which wouldn't show up on skin-prick allergy tests).

She put me on a food elimination diet. We discovered that I was

severely allergic to wheat, and also had minor allergies to (cow)

dairy and soy. Avoiding these foods completely stopped my symptoms.

Unfortunately, these foods also made up the majority of my diet. From

then on, I had to read " everything " on labels and learn about the

various derivatives of wheat, dairy, and soy.

 

I tell you this little prelude to the real topic (raw food) because

it shows how early I became concerned with food. I basically started

studying diet and nutrition when the rest of my friends still thought

boys had cooties. So alternative diets were always something I was

familiar with, and healing medical problems through diet was an

interest of mine ever since I found out some foods could make me so

sick.

 

Flash forward to age 14. I stumbled upon a website advocating

the " raw food diet, " which I had never heard of before. I thought it

seemed a little suspicious--where do you get protein? what, no

grains? all that fruit?--but I was intensely curious, so I did more

research. I found tons of anectdotal experiences about how this-or-

that was miraculously cured, effortless weight loss, no more colds or

flus. The more I read, the more I became convinced. It didn't take

long before I was sold on the idea that cooked food was the root of

all disease. If animals in the wild don't put fire on their foods,

why should we?

 

The first resource I came upon was Doug Graham's board on Vegsource.

I lurked for a long time, reading about the 80/10/10 diet. I loved

the simplicity of the plan; all the other raw food diets promoted

supplements or weird superfoods that I knew I couldn't afford. Doug's

posts seemed so convincing, so authoritative, that I immediately

trusted him and his statements. I also assumed he was a medical

doctor (only later did I learn that he was a chiropractor), adding to

his air of authority.

 

So I embarked on the low-fat raw-vegan diet. Since I was already a

vegetarian and couldn't have dairy--and didn't care much for eggs--it

was really easy going straight to vegan. Not to mention, from the

posts on Vegsource, I was convinced that any type of animal product

was deadly and unnatural anyway. I loaded up on bananas, mangos,

papayas, etc. and romaine lettuce and celery. I copied the eating

patterns and diets of the " regulars " on Vegsource who sometimes

posted their food logs, to make sure I was doing it right. Let me

tell you... I was PUMPED about this diet. I was euphoric and ecstatic

and giddy. I almost felt selfish eating my fruit meals and watching

everyone else chow down on cooked " poison, " filling their bodies with

toxins and shaving years off their lives. I hate to say it, but I

felt superior in a lot of ways, having found this secret to Paradise

Health. I eagerly anticipated a life full of energy, youthfulness,

and lack of disease.

 

And I really did feel excellent at first. So much energy--nothing

could bring me down! I was happy and even got some comments about how

I seemed to " glow. " The first sign something was wrong came about two

or three months after starting the diet. I was losing weight, despite

eating almost 3000 calories a day. Considering I was only 115 pounds

to start with (on a 5'5 " frame), I found this to be a bit alarming,

but assumed it was just my body shedding " toxins " stored in the fat

cells so it could regenerate--something I had read in a lot of

testimonials. So I didn't think much more of it, and decided I would

be okay getting down to as low as 100 pounds if that's what my body

needed to do. As long as I was eating plenty, I didn't see the

problem.

 

Well, 100 pounds came later that year. And then 95 came. And when I

almost hit 90, my parents confronted me one night in tears. My dad

thought I was anorexic (which I wasn't; I didn't care about my

weight, I just wanted to stay RAW) and my mom told me I looked like a

concentration camp victim. Neither of them had been very supportive

of my diet, so I thought this was some sort of attack on raw foodism.

How could I POSSIBLY be unhealthy on the raw vegan diet, the secret

to Paradise Health? I was going through detox, didn't they understand?

 

During this time, I should also mention that a number of other

problems arose. Even before I lost so much weight, my hair had begun

to fall out in clumps, so much that it was about half the thickness

as it was originally (I knew this because the hair bands that used to

wrap twice around a ponytail could now fit around four times and

still be loose). What was left of my hair was dry and straw-like. A

dentist visit after 6 months on the diet revealed severe dental

erosion--even though I almost never ate citrus, and certainly did not

eat many nuts (which was named as the culprit for dental problems by

people on Doug's board). My " boundless energy " had sizzled down to

intermittent fatigue and hyperactivity. I lost all muscle tone,

despite weight training. I often felt dizzy and lightheaded, and my

heart would skip beats. My skin got dry and cracked. My period

stopped. I had a strange spacey feeling that caused me to do careless

things like lose my purse (which I did twice), leave my coat on the

bus (again, twice!) and forget about commitments with people or

homework assignments. I used to be as sharp as a tack, a straight A

student--but I was struggling in all my classes. No one complimented

me on my " glow " anymore, but I often got concerned glances and people

asking if I was " Okay " or remarking that I looked pale. Was all this

due to a low weight? No--because these things started when I was

still 110 pounds!

 

However, I was 100% sure that I was going through detox and my body

was simply regenerating. No one could have convinced me otherwise.

Certainly not my parents. Regardless, they dragged me kicking and

screaming (literally!) to the doctor's office--the same naturopath

who had diagnosed my food allergies. When I went to my appointment, I

had printed out a number of articles Doug Graham had written--

especially one about how being " undermuscled " was the real culprit

for skinniness, not being " underfat. " I showed this article proudly

to the doctor to explain why I was so skinny, and that I simply

needed more muscle, which I could build easily once my detox was

over. Well, it turns out there IS such thing as being underfat--

especially for a female. I got my body fat measured, to reveal that I

had only 5.7% body fat; anything under 10%, even for athletes, can do

irreverseable damage on reproductive organs and bones. I also got my

blood drawn for a blood test and an amino acid profile, to reveal how

my body was utilizing protein (which I believed, as I had been told,

was more than abundant in fruits and vegetables alone).

 

The doctor said she was certain I had some deficiencies and that I

needed more protein and fat. She said the overabundance of carbs and

lack of protein was what was causing me to lose so much weight; even

with enough calories, my body was burning muscle because of amino

acid deficiencies. I kept my mouth shut, but I disagreed with

everything she said. She recommended I eat protein powder or goat

dairy to see if I could tolerate it, and eggs. I told her that first

I wanted to see the results of my blood test--which I was CERTAIN

would turn out to be impeccable, because of my wonderful diet--and

then I would listen to her suggestions.

 

A week later, she called with the results. I expected to hear her

tell me, somewhat guiltily, that everything looked great and to keep

doing what I was doing. The first thing she said was: " We have some

serious problems here. " My heart sank. I listend to her tick off all

the areas I was deficient in: " Extremely anemic... B12 levels are low

enough to begin causing neurological damage... folate deficiency,

probably in connection to the B12 deficiency... electrolytes are so

imbalanced that I recommend you get an EKG to see if you have done

heart damage... T cell count in thyroid is disturbed because your

body is burning muscle tissue and is effecting the thyroid gland... "

 

And then, she explained what my amino acid profile had revealed: I

was protein deficient--something EVERYONE on the Vegsource board had

insisted was IMPOSSIBLE! For my body--especially because I was still

growing--the protein in fruits and greens was simply not bioavailable

enough, complete enough, or high-enough quality to supply my needs.

This is why my body was burning muscle. There was no reliable source

of all the essential amino acids for my body to use.

 

I immediately started on a B12 supplement and my parents virtually

force-fed me cooked eggs and steamed vegetables. The only other

alternative, they said, was going to get intravenous fluid at the

hospital and get strapped down in a hospital bed. I was distraught

and confused. Why was this happening? Was there a chance it WASN'T

all detox? Could this diet have flaws? Where oh where was my Paradise

Health? Despite my doubts, I still felt terrible knowing I was

putting all these " toxic " cooked foods into my body. I thought there

must be something wrong with me, because no other raw vegans are

having problems like me.

 

Then something happened. A few weeks after I got my blood test

results, someone named Rick posted something on Vegsource that

questioned veganism. It was this post, actually:

http://vegsource.com/talk/raw/messages/4158.html Suddenly, the board

exploded into arguments. People stepped forward and revealed that

they were not having Perfect Health, either, but instead were

struggling terribly on the diet. A group of about 6 people plus

myself actually formed our OWN discussion group on (it has

since gone inactive, but a year ago it was hopping). Just a private

board where we could openly share our experiences, without worrying

about having our posts censored or deleted, which happened quite

often on the Vegsource board.

 

It turns out, we ALL had similar problems. One woman plus her family

(including two kids) were struggling on the diet, feeling miserable.

Three men had each been trying to get the diet to work for two or

three years, and still did not feel healthy or good. A few people

mentioned they had seen incredible improvement after adding a small

amount of animal foods to their diet.

 

It was like a curtain had been lifted. I realized I wasn't alone, and

that all of us had fallen under some raw-vegan-dogma that kept us

blind to the problems it caused. From that point on, I started doing

REAL research on the raw diet--not just reading the testimonials that

had been written after less than a month on the diet, not ignoring

the " anti-raw vegan " articles that I had previously come across but

dismissed without considering. I talked to a lot of people, I

shattered a lot of my own beliefs. It was really quite amazing to

know I had been such a " sheep, " following the flock, almost like I

was in a cult.

 

I have spent the past year experimenting with my diet. I would like

to go back to fish at some point, but right now I consume several raw

eggs a day, plus fermented goat dairy, and sometimes steamed kale or

chard (I can't stand it raw). The color is back in my face, my hair

is no longer falling out, I have put on a LOT of muscle, and I have

constant energy again. I have learned a lot about the myths

surrounding animal foods, and have come to believe that a small

amount is necessary. For me, I tolerate goat dairy quite well, but

other people don't; it's all very individual. I am just happy to have

found something that restored my health.

 

Well, I've written you a book here, haven't I? Hopefully you're still

awake! If you read all that, congratulations

 

If you have ANY other questions, please, please don't hesitate to

ask. I want to help in any way I can. I have lots of research

accumulated, and lots of saved e-mails from people like myself. I can

share anything you're interested in hearing about.

 

Have a good night,

 

Denise

[Guest guest]

> > It was like a curtain had been lifted. I realized I

> > wasn't alone, and that all of us had fallen under some

> > raw-vegan-dogma that kept us blind to the problems it

> > caused.

>

> nail, head, hit?

>

> Excellent and informative post, thanks Erica.

>

> --

> the kneeling fool

 

Exactly. If someone is confident and secure in their approach, they are

not threatened by questions from people who it is not working out for.

Erica

[Guest guest]

On Monday 22 October 2007, Erica wrote:

> It was like a curtain had been lifted. I realized I

> wasn't alone, and that all of us had fallen under some

> raw-vegan-dogma that kept us blind to the problems it

> caused.

 

nail, head, hit?

 

Excellent and informative post, thanks Erica.

 

--

the kneeling fool