Guest guest Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Louise, well recyling isn't new here we have been doing that for a while We had a great Christmas-we keep it very simple I am very busy coaching a Lego Robotics FLL team and we won first in a mini tournament!! Anyhow most of this is probably considered OT so I won't go on but thanks for asking and please feel free to contact me off list As for resolutions-they do involve getting as healthy as I can so that is connected to the group I am trying to do more rather take away for ex floss my teeth, eat more raw foods and make love to DH once a day :-) well try anyway I figured that would help with the keeping warm part i almost didn't share that one but hey i'm married and I do think it is part of staying healthy Em rawfood , " loulin3 " <Joyloulin wrote: > > The group is called GoingRaw and I'm a part of it. I have been with > this group first since I started raw and only ate raw in the > morning. Anyway - I'm glad things have settled down. > > So what's new in your life Em besides recycling? > > How was your Christmas - or do you celebrate that? What do you have > planned for New Year's Day and doing anything different this year? > Resolutions etc.? > > Louise > > rawfood , " emusedmary " <emusedmary@> wrote: > > > > well said > > and I think we were all staying out of it to see if the 2 parties > > would resolve > > I did until > > I felt I had somethingto say when there was talk about creating a > safe > > group > > I just wanted to say that I felt safe and had no interest in joining > > the other group which I have not. > > i am not saying that it is not for those who have. > > And I think to clarify for Beth and any others-Elchanan created > > another group-I forgot what it is called ...as far as I know he is > not > > a moderator here at Raw foodss for Health & Happiness > > Em > > > > rawfood , " loulin3 " <Joyloulin@> wrote: > > > > > > This group has ov er 3,000 members... but ACTIVE ones are few. > It's > > > like voters in America - not many active and they have a strong > > > voice. > > > > > > I can truly understand the frustration of not being responded > to. > > > However I do know that name calling and hollering lourder > sometimes > > > gets us the opposite of what we want. The person we are tryiing > to > > > connect with shuts down. I would say much of this conversatin > > > shoulde have been between the parties off line. > > > > > > Perhaps we can agree if we have something personal and it gets us > > > upset with ONE party that we would take that part of the > conversation > > > off line until it can be settled between the 2 parties. If one > > > decides to disconnect then that must be respected.... I say on to > the > > > next... the world is full of people to connect with. > > > > > > Often a 3rd party can cause more confusion and add more to > > > disagreement than settling the dispute. I've found if the 2 > parties > > > involved can talk - it may take time sorting things out - > persistance > > > is the key - then things settle down. > > > > > > Not always of course. The exception to this is if one party is > on > > > mood altering drugs and that can include any alcohol even > moderately > > > or even some foods can be mood altering. > > > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > > > Louise > > > > > > rawfood , " Beth Mouser " <mouser4@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, I would like for this group to stay intact and open > > > > without moderators. Moderators may not post your messages if > they > > > > don't like your viewpoint or even have some sort of past " beef " > > > with > > > > you. > > > > > > > > I do like the challenges to various viewpoints. Knowing all > > > > viewpoints and sides to an issue, whether it is religion or > diet, > > > is > > > > something I like to seek. I do not like all of the ridiculous > name- > > > > calling either, but in between the slurs, I think there are > some > > > > valid questions being asked, possibly from a very frustrated > person > > > > wanting some sort of acknowledgment. > > > > > > > > Can't we all agree as a group that we will ignore Laurie's > posts > > > and > > > > questions until he starts communicating in a manner that is > less > > > > offensive? If he gets no attention whatsoever from these > posts, I > > > > think they will stop. Are we going to give him the > satisfaction of > > > > knowing he had the power to shut down or change our group? > > > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > - In rawfood , Terry Bakhtiari <pablobully@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > no one has to 'follow' him anywhere is they are happy here > > > > however, there has been a lot of negativity here and NO ONE > should > > > > stoop to name calling and such rudeness as has been displayed > here. > > > > If anyone disagrees with someone, great say so and why and also > be > > > > willing to say where your expertise comes from since that seems > to > > > > be often asked for from Elchnan. It can be done in a nice way. > I do > > > > not like the rudeness and name calling, that is all this says > about > > > > me > > > > > > > > > > emusedmary <emusedmary@> wrote: Terri, > > > > > of course we are capapble of finding things on our > own/findour > > > own > > > > path > > > > > but many hwere have been the victim ofhis condescension an > mood > > > of > > > > the day > > > > > which results in negativity and so does neglect > > > > > and then > > > > > where is the list of anyones degree-E or L? > > > > > i think that Elchanan too has said things to the effect that > this > > > > type > > > > > of knowledge can be self taught > > > > > see you have seen my post as an attack > > > > > why???? > > > > > because I said I am happy here and will not > > > > > follow > > > > > elchanan > > > > > that reveals much about > > > > > you- > > > > > Em > > > > > -- In rawfood , Terry Bakhtiari <pablobully@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > this is exactly why many people sit back and do not post. > You > > > do > > > > not > > > > > have to agree with Elchanan or anyone for that matter but > there > > > is > > > > no > > > > > need for attacks and name calling which is what has been > happening > > > > > repeatedly. Everyone is entitled to how they believe is the > best > > > > path > > > > > and can come here to share it and those who choose to > research and > > > > > then either follow that or not is great. But when someone is > > > nasty > > > > in > > > > > their demands for answers who wants to respond to them? If > someone > > > > > angrily demanded things and calling me names then I wouldn't > > > > respond > > > > > to them either. And as far as the things that Elchanan shares > > > > here, > > > > > some of us feel like we are smart enough and capable enough to > > > > > research on our own to either verify or disagree with what he > has > > > > said > > > > > but DO NOT feel the need to attack or take up so much of > > > everyone's > > > > > time with all this negativity. And where is Laurie's list of > > > > degrees > > > > > and proof that she is right and Elchnan is wrong? I read what > > > each > > > > say > > > > > then research on my own. > > > > > > This has gotten ridiculous. Why can't you or Laurie or > anyone > > > > when > > > > > they disagree just say I respectfully disagree due to > whatever and > > > > > move on. Let the rest of us decideon our own without email > after > > > > email > > > > > of name calling and rudeness and get back to something more > > > > productive. > > > > > > Sorry this turned into so long a message but enough is > enough. > > > > > Agreeor disagree and let's get back to why we are supposed to > be > > > > here. > > > > > This isn't a debateforum. it is supposed to be a place where > many > > > > have > > > > > chosen different paths and they share with all and then we > decide > > > > if > > > > > we agree or disagree. But who wants to share here when you > are > > > > going > > > > > to be attacked constantly. I am no expert in rawfoods but I > am > > > > capable > > > > > of research and making decisions for what is best for my own > > > > health. > > > > > > > > > > > > emusedmary <emusedmary@> wrote: > > > > > > -Elchanan, > > > > > > since I have been rejected from your path of health group > > > opting > > > > out > > > > > > of having (your version of)the spanish inquisition'i will > not > > > > follow > > > > > > you anywhere > > > > > > If you start a new group because you want to feel safe from > > > > having to > > > > > > answer someone's very direct questions~ > > > > > > then fine start that group > > > > > > start as many that will make you feel loved > > > > > > I don't know that you have discovered the unconditional kind > > > > > > anyway I was waiting for you to come outof your corner and > > > answer > > > > > > Lauries questions..... > > > > > > what I saw was you opting out- > > > > > > opting out is always a choice > > > > > > i realize > > > > > > buti never felt anger from laurie's posts > > > > > > just her wanting some logical answers instead of some > thread > > > that > > > > > > would glorify you > > > > > > good luck with your new list > > > > > > Em-- In rawfood , " Elchanan " <Elchanan@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write this message with mixed feelings about the past > and > > > > warm > > > > > > enthusiasm > > > > > > > regarding the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I first learned of this Raw Food discussion group > > > nearly > > > > 3 > > > > > > years ago, > > > > > > > I have watched with great joy as many, many people > > > experienced > > > > this > > > > > > place as > > > > > > > an excellent entry point into the world of raw food and, > in a > > > > larger > > > > > > sense, > > > > > > > to new approaches to healthful living. At the same time, > I > > > have > > > > > > watched at > > > > > > > times with a great sense of sadness and disappointment as > I > > > > see one > > > > > > or two > > > > > > > people create an atmosphere that causes others to go > silent. > > > > Now is > > > > > > not the > > > > > > > first time, but now is the worst I've seen, in my own > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moderators of this Raw Food group apparently choose > to > > > > moderate in > > > > > > > absentia. That is their right. But I see a clear need for > a > > > > group > > > > > > that is > > > > > > > wide open to newcomers and experienced RFs alike AND that > > > > feels just > > > > > > plain > > > > > > > safe. So in the background, several of us have been > discussing > > > > > > formation of > > > > > > > a new group, one with similar goals as this one, but one > that > > > > is > > > > > > > well-moderated for safety and basic respect and kindness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I'd like to share my idea, to see what others may > > > think ... > > > > and > > > > > > invite > > > > > > > you all to join. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The name of the new group is Going Raw, to capture the > > > idea > > > > that > > > > > > we are > > > > > > > all always transitioning in some way, that we are all > always > > > > on a > > > > > > journey, > > > > > > > each at his/her own place along the way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Moderation takes a certain commitment of time and > energy. > > > > > > Eventually, no > > > > > > > matter how good someone's intentions are, most people > become > > > > weary of > > > > > > > moderating, particularly in a group of this size. > Therefore, I > > > > > > propose that > > > > > > > people from the group volunteer to serve as moderators > for 3 > > > > months, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > pass the baton to others. Janet FitzGerald has > volunteered to > > > > take > > > > > > on a lead > > > > > > > role during this formative period and to stick around for > the > > > > long > > > > > term. > > > > > > > Several others have already volunteered to serve for a 3- > month > > > > > > period, and I > > > > > > > feel confident that we'll always have people willing to > do > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as we have 2-3 active moderators at any point in > > > time, > > > > then > > > > > > there is > > > > > > > never a problem if one moderator is busy, traveling, or > the > > > > like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who can volunteer? Absolutely anyone ... it would truly > be an > > > > act of > > > > > > > service!!! We can train anyone to be a moderator, it's > easy, > > > > even > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > " technically constrained " among us. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How can you volunteer? Simple ... just write to > > > > > > > GoingRaw-owner and let us know you'd like > to > > > > help > > > > > out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to try out this solution, just click on > > > > > > > <http://health.GoingRaw/> > > > > > > > http://health.GoingRaw/, then > click on > > > > the Join > > > > > > > button. We monitor all requests to join the group. For > > > > everyone here > > > > > > (with > > > > > > > one or two obvious exceptions), just type something > > > > like " Coming > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > Raw Food group " and we'll understand and approve you > right > > > > away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I invite your feedback about this solution, whether here > in > > > the > > > > > group or > > > > > > > privately at GoingRaw-owner Meanwhile, > let's > > > > just > > > > > > begin!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best to all, > > > > > > > Elchanan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS: One more point. Most of you are aware that I am > involved > > > in > > > > > another > > > > > > > group called PathOfHealth, and you may wonder if this new > > > > group will > > > > > > turn > > > > > > > out to be a clone of that one. The answer is " no " . This > new > > > > group will > > > > > > > preserve the general intent of the existing Raw Food > group > > > > (perhaps > > > > > > updated > > > > > > > with a tweak here or there) to provide an open, entry- > level > > > > > > discussion forum > > > > > > > about raw food, health, and the like. It's all described > on > > > > the home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > And sharing the moderating role will only help to > preserve the > > > > > > openness of > > > > > > > the group, over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2007 Report Share Posted December 31, 2007 Em you made me laugh with making love once per day! I agree it is great exercise! And relaxation thus good for your health! emusedmary <emusedmary wrote: Louise, well recyling isn't new here we have been doing that for a while We had a great Christmas-we keep it very simple I am very busy coaching a Lego Robotics FLL team and we won first in a mini tournament!! Anyhow most of this is probably considered OT so I won't go on but thanks for asking and please feel free to contact me off list As for resolutions-they do involve getting as healthy as I can so that is connected to the group I am trying to do more rather take away for ex floss my teeth, eat more raw foods and make love to DH once a day :-) well try anyway I figured that would help with the keeping warm part i almost didn't share that one but hey i'm married and I do think it is part of staying healthy Em rawfood , " loulin3 " <Joyloulin wrote: > > The group is called GoingRaw and I'm a part of it. I have been with > this group first since I started raw and only ate raw in the > morning. Anyway - I'm glad things have settled down. > > So what's new in your life Em besides recycling? > > How was your Christmas - or do you celebrate that? What do you have > planned for New Year's Day and doing anything different this year? > Resolutions etc.? > > Louise > > rawfood , " emusedmary " <emusedmary@> wrote: > > > > well said > > and I think we were all staying out of it to see if the 2 parties > > would resolve > > I did until > > I felt I had somethingto say when there was talk about creating a > safe > > group > > I just wanted to say that I felt safe and had no interest in joining > > the other group which I have not. > > i am not saying that it is not for those who have. > > And I think to clarify for Beth and any others-Elchanan created > > another group-I forgot what it is called ...as far as I know he is > not > > a moderator here at Raw foodss for Health & Happiness > > Em > > > > rawfood , " loulin3 " <Joyloulin@> wrote: > > > > > > This group has ov er 3,000 members... but ACTIVE ones are few. > It's > > > like voters in America - not many active and they have a strong > > > voice. > > > > > > I can truly understand the frustration of not being responded > to. > > > However I do know that name calling and hollering lourder > sometimes > > > gets us the opposite of what we want. The person we are tryiing > to > > > connect with shuts down. I would say much of this conversatin > > > shoulde have been between the parties off line. > > > > > > Perhaps we can agree if we have something personal and it gets us > > > upset with ONE party that we would take that part of the > conversation > > > off line until it can be settled between the 2 parties. If one > > > decides to disconnect then that must be respected.... I say on to > the > > > next... the world is full of people to connect with. > > > > > > Often a 3rd party can cause more confusion and add more to > > > disagreement than settling the dispute. I've found if the 2 > parties > > > involved can talk - it may take time sorting things out - > persistance > > > is the key - then things settle down. > > > > > > Not always of course. The exception to this is if one party is > on > > > mood altering drugs and that can include any alcohol even > moderately > > > or even some foods can be mood altering. > > > > > > My 2 cents. > > > > > > Louise > > > > > > rawfood , " Beth Mouser " <mouser4@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Personally, I would like for this group to stay intact and open > > > > without moderators. Moderators may not post your messages if > they > > > > don't like your viewpoint or even have some sort of past " beef " > > > with > > > > you. > > > > > > > > I do like the challenges to various viewpoints. Knowing all > > > > viewpoints and sides to an issue, whether it is religion or > diet, > > > is > > > > something I like to seek. I do not like all of the ridiculous > name- > > > > calling either, but in between the slurs, I think there are > some > > > > valid questions being asked, possibly from a very frustrated > person > > > > wanting some sort of acknowledgment. > > > > > > > > Can't we all agree as a group that we will ignore Laurie's > posts > > > and > > > > questions until he starts communicating in a manner that is > less > > > > offensive? If he gets no attention whatsoever from these > posts, I > > > > think they will stop. Are we going to give him the > satisfaction of > > > > knowing he had the power to shut down or change our group? > > > > > > > > Beth > > > > > > > > > > > > - In rawfood , Terry Bakhtiari <pablobully@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > no one has to 'follow' him anywhere is they are happy here > > > > however, there has been a lot of negativity here and NO ONE > should > > > > stoop to name calling and such rudeness as has been displayed > here. > > > > If anyone disagrees with someone, great say so and why and also > be > > > > willing to say where your expertise comes from since that seems > to > > > > be often asked for from Elchnan. It can be done in a nice way. > I do > > > > not like the rudeness and name calling, that is all this says > about > > > > me > > > > > > > > > > emusedmary <emusedmary@> wrote: Terri, > > > > > of course we are capapble of finding things on our > own/findour > > > own > > > > path > > > > > but many hwere have been the victim ofhis condescension an > mood > > > of > > > > the day > > > > > which results in negativity and so does neglect > > > > > and then > > > > > where is the list of anyones degree-E or L? > > > > > i think that Elchanan too has said things to the effect that > this > > > > type > > > > > of knowledge can be self taught > > > > > see you have seen my post as an attack > > > > > why???? > > > > > because I said I am happy here and will not > > > > > follow > > > > > elchanan > > > > > that reveals much about > > > > > you- > > > > > Em > > > > > -- In rawfood , Terry Bakhtiari <pablobully@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > this is exactly why many people sit back and do not post. > You > > > do > > > > not > > > > > have to agree with Elchanan or anyone for that matter but > there > > > is > > > > no > > > > > need for attacks and name calling which is what has been > happening > > > > > repeatedly. Everyone is entitled to how they believe is the > best > > > > path > > > > > and can come here to share it and those who choose to > research and > > > > > then either follow that or not is great. But when someone is > > > nasty > > > > in > > > > > their demands for answers who wants to respond to them? If > someone > > > > > angrily demanded things and calling me names then I wouldn't > > > > respond > > > > > to them either. And as far as the things that Elchanan shares > > > > here, > > > > > some of us feel like we are smart enough and capable enough to > > > > > research on our own to either verify or disagree with what he > has > > > > said > > > > > but DO NOT feel the need to attack or take up so much of > > > everyone's > > > > > time with all this negativity. And where is Laurie's list of > > > > degrees > > > > > and proof that she is right and Elchnan is wrong? I read what > > > each > > > > say > > > > > then research on my own. > > > > > > This has gotten ridiculous. Why can't you or Laurie or > anyone > > > > when > > > > > they disagree just say I respectfully disagree due to > whatever and > > > > > move on. Let the rest of us decideon our own without email > after > > > > email > > > > > of name calling and rudeness and get back to something more > > > > productive. > > > > > > Sorry this turned into so long a message but enough is > enough. > > > > > Agreeor disagree and let's get back to why we are supposed to > be > > > > here. > > > > > This isn't a debateforum. it is supposed to be a place where > many > > > > have > > > > > chosen different paths and they share with all and then we > decide > > > > if > > > > > we agree or disagree. But who wants to share here when you > are > > > > going > > > > > to be attacked constantly. I am no expert in rawfoods but I > am > > > > capable > > > > > of research and making decisions for what is best for my own > > > > health. > > > > > > > > > > > > emusedmary <emusedmary@> wrote: > > > > > > -Elchanan, > > > > > > since I have been rejected from your path of health group > > > opting > > > > out > > > > > > of having (your version of)the spanish inquisition'i will > not > > > > follow > > > > > > you anywhere > > > > > > If you start a new group because you want to feel safe from > > > > having to > > > > > > answer someone's very direct questions~ > > > > > > then fine start that group > > > > > > start as many that will make you feel loved > > > > > > I don't know that you have discovered the unconditional kind > > > > > > anyway I was waiting for you to come outof your corner and > > > answer > > > > > > Lauries questions..... > > > > > > what I saw was you opting out- > > > > > > opting out is always a choice > > > > > > i realize > > > > > > buti never felt anger from laurie's posts > > > > > > just her wanting some logical answers instead of some > thread > > > that > > > > > > would glorify you > > > > > > good luck with your new list > > > > > > Em-- In rawfood , " Elchanan " <Elchanan@> > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Greetings everyone, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I write this message with mixed feelings about the past > and > > > > warm > > > > > > enthusiasm > > > > > > > regarding the future. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since I first learned of this Raw Food discussion group > > > nearly > > > > 3 > > > > > > years ago, > > > > > > > I have watched with great joy as many, many people > > > experienced > > > > this > > > > > > place as > > > > > > > an excellent entry point into the world of raw food and, > in a > > > > larger > > > > > > sense, > > > > > > > to new approaches to healthful living. At the same time, > I > > > have > > > > > > watched at > > > > > > > times with a great sense of sadness and disappointment as > I > > > > see one > > > > > > or two > > > > > > > people create an atmosphere that causes others to go > silent. > > > > Now is > > > > > > not the > > > > > > > first time, but now is the worst I've seen, in my own > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The moderators of this Raw Food group apparently choose > to > > > > moderate in > > > > > > > absentia. That is their right. But I see a clear need for > a > > > > group > > > > > > that is > > > > > > > wide open to newcomers and experienced RFs alike AND that > > > > feels just > > > > > > plain > > > > > > > safe. So in the background, several of us have been > discussing > > > > > > formation of > > > > > > > a new group, one with similar goals as this one, but one > that > > > > is > > > > > > > well-moderated for safety and basic respect and kindness. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So I'd like to share my idea, to see what others may > > > think ... > > > > and > > > > > > invite > > > > > > > you all to join. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The name of the new group is Going Raw, to capture the > > > idea > > > > that > > > > > > we are > > > > > > > all always transitioning in some way, that we are all > always > > > > on a > > > > > > journey, > > > > > > > each at his/her own place along the way. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Moderation takes a certain commitment of time and > energy. > > > > > > Eventually, no > > > > > > > matter how good someone's intentions are, most people > become > > > > weary of > > > > > > > moderating, particularly in a group of this size. > Therefore, I > > > > > > propose that > > > > > > > people from the group volunteer to serve as moderators > for 3 > > > > months, > > > > > > then > > > > > > > pass the baton to others. Janet FitzGerald has > volunteered to > > > > take > > > > > > on a lead > > > > > > > role during this formative period and to stick around for > the > > > > long > > > > > term. > > > > > > > Several others have already volunteered to serve for a 3- > month > > > > > > period, and I > > > > > > > feel confident that we'll always have people willing to > do > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As long as we have 2-3 active moderators at any point in > > > time, > > > > then > > > > > > there is > > > > > > > never a problem if one moderator is busy, traveling, or > the > > > > like. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Who can volunteer? Absolutely anyone ... it would truly > be an > > > > act of > > > > > > > service!!! We can train anyone to be a moderator, it's > easy, > > > > even > > > > > > for the > > > > > > > " technically constrained " among us. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How can you volunteer? Simple ... just write to > > > > > > > GoingRaw-owner and let us know you'd like > to > > > > help > > > > > out. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you wish to try out this solution, just click on > > > > > > > <http://health.GoingRaw/> > > > > > > > http://health.GoingRaw/, then > click on > > > > the Join > > > > > > > button. We monitor all requests to join the group. For > > > > everyone here > > > > > > (with > > > > > > > one or two obvious exceptions), just type something > > > > like " Coming > > > > > > from the > > > > > > > Raw Food group " and we'll understand and approve you > right > > > > away. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I invite your feedback about this solution, whether here > in > > > the > > > > > group or > > > > > > > privately at GoingRaw-owner Meanwhile, > let's > > > > just > > > > > > begin!!! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best to all, > > > > > > > Elchanan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > PS: One more point. Most of you are aware that I am > involved > > > in > > > > > another > > > > > > > group called PathOfHealth, and you may wonder if this new > > > > group will > > > > > > turn > > > > > > > out to be a clone of that one. The answer is " no " . This > new > > > > group will > > > > > > > preserve the general intent of the existing Raw Food > group > > > > (perhaps > > > > > > updated > > > > > > > with a tweak here or there) to provide an open, entry- > level > > > > > > discussion forum > > > > > > > about raw food, health, and the like. It's all described > on > > > > the home > > > > > > page. > > > > > > > And sharing the moderating role will only help to > preserve the > > > > > > openness of > > > > > > > the group, over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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