Guest guest Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 In a message dated 4/18/04 2:51:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Hi Dragonstarsong> Karma also comes into it, it exists I know it does. Past lives karma too. This is what I know to be true for me.Something that I always find personally "uncomfortable" about the idea of Karma is that, in the way most people understand the word, it is mutually exclusive with the concept of free-will. Personally, I believe in free-will rather than pre-destination :-)BBPeter As I understand it, both are in play. We have free will to make choices, good or bad, that will lead to either merit or negative karma. But once we make the choice and the effect is made then we will have to experience the karma no matter what. Experiencing the karma can be a kind of cleansing or fresh start for us to make new choices. We always retain our free will to make different choices which in turn create better karma for us in the future. I am only sharing what I have learned. Kristina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 18, 2004 Report Share Posted April 18, 2004 Hi Kristina > As I understand it, both are in play. We have free will to make choices, good or bad, that will lead to either merit or negative karma. But once > we make the choice and the effect is made then we will have to experience the karma no matter what. But who decides on whether a choice is "good" or "bad", and whether that choice warrants a reward or a punishment? The concept that someone is making a decision on our behalf to either punish or reward us for our choices and actions would mean that we have only limited free will, and limited free will isn't free will at all. To use a metaphor, we could say that someone in prison has a choice to either eat their dinner or not to eat their dinner, but they don't have the freedom to choose what they have for dinner. I wouldn't call that freedom. :-) BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 In a message dated 4/19/04 2:38:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Hi Kristina> As I understand it, both are in play. We have free will to make choices, good or bad, that will lead to either merit or negative karma. But once> we make the choice and the effect is made then we will have to experience the karma no matter what.But who decides on whether a choice is "good" or "bad", and whether that choice warrants a reward or a punishment? The concept that someone is making a decision on our behalf to either punish or reward us for our choices and actions would mean that we have only limited free will, and limited free will isn't free will at all. To use a metaphor, we could say that someone in prison has a choice to either eat their dinner or not to eat their dinner, but they don't have the freedom to choose what they have for dinner. I wouldn't call that freedom. :-)BBPeter[This message contained attachments] Well now we are getting into sprituality and ethics and I know how that stirs up this list! But I'll give you my answers. I don't really call karma a "reward" or "punishment" because that sounds like we need to be trained. I think it's more like "the effects of our actions" according to spiritual laws. It isn't a person per se who decides what those effects are...it's the natural consequences of breaking spiritual laws. What are these spiritual laws? I would say they are the universal spiritual values. Things like fairness, tolerance, compassion, strength, courage, selflessness, not killing, not stealing, no lying, etc etc. The same virtues that are laid out with the Buddhist precepts and the Ten Commandments. And the same virtues other great religions of the world espouse at their core. Buddhism tends to be a little bit more exact though in their precepts which I think is helpful. It goes into "divisive thought word and deed" that is causes so much harm. As for your comment that we don't really have free will if we are going to feel the effects of our negative actions. I am not sure I buy that argument because we still do have a choice and we still can take actions to their fruition sometimes waiting a long time before we feel the negative effects. I still think we have free will...notice the huge amount of choices you have each and everyday for every thought, word and deed you have from which to choose from. Kristina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 - Peter Sunday, April 18, 2004 6:36 PM Re: Free Will/Karma Hi Peter But who decides on whether a choice is "good" or "bad", and whether that choice warrants a reward or a punishment? The concept that someone is making a decision on our behalf to either punish or reward us for our choices and actions would mean that we have only limited free will, and limited free will isn't free will at all. To use a metaphor, we could say that someone in prison has a choice to either eat their dinner or not to eat their dinner, but they don't have the freedom to choose what they have for dinner. I wouldn't call that freedom. :-) We have a free-will to make certain decisions with the choices available....if we take the decision to do something harmful than we deserve to be punishish to some extent by Natures or Gods ( whichever truly exists) as we might carry on doing the harmful thing. We are confined to some extent by the bodies we live in. Simon To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 19, 2004 Report Share Posted April 19, 2004 Hi Simon > We have a free-will to make certain decisions with the choices available....if we take the decision to do something harmful than we deserve to be punishish to some > extent by Natures or Gods ( whichever truly exists) as we might carry on doing the harmful thing. > We are confined to some extent by the bodies we live in. That's a fine argument if you believe in a supreme being of some sort - but the existence of such a being meting out punishments and rewards is mutually exclusive with the idea of true free will. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2004 Report Share Posted April 20, 2004 - Peter Monday, April 19, 2004 8:02 PM Re: Free Will/Karma Hi Peter That's a fine argument if you believe in a supreme being of some sort - but the existence of such a being meting out punishments and rewards is mutually exclusive with the idea of true free will. I'm not sure I fully understand your statement. I think rewards and punishments are there for all to see...whatever your beliefs. Doing something wrong = equals some sort of punishment. Doing something good = equals some sort of reward. Simon To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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