Alzheimer's=CJD???

[Guest guest]

ok IAN from the UK

you have proved a very valuable point you fail to read your emails and grasp what has been said

it started with:

DYING FOR A HAMBURGER HOW MODERN MEAT-PACKING LED TO AN EPIDEMIC OFALZHEIMER'S DISEASE: "Dr. Murray Waldman, in collaboration with writerMarjorie Lamb, sets out to show that Alzheimer's is, indeed, a deadlymodern plague. They present startling evidence that Alzheimer's is one of afamily of diseases caused by a malformed protein - or prion - that alsocauses mad cow disease and its human variant, Cruetzfeld-Jakob disease(CJD). Could Alzheimer's, like CJD, be caused by tainted beef? In thiscompelling exposition, the authors come to a frightening conclusion aboutour seemingly insatiable hunger for hamburger."Before about 1900 Alzheimer's disease did not exist, or if it did, was sorare as not to be noticed. But just over a hundred years ago, Alzheimer'sdisease was unknown, and most people did not know anyone who exhibited thesymptoms of dementia that are now all too familiar to the families andfriends of victims. Alzheimer's disease (AD) now afflicts 15 million peoplearound the world, including 250,000 Canadians and 4.5 million Americans.One in 10 persons over 65 and nearly half of those over 85 have thedisease. More significantly, the number of people with dementia isexpected to increase steadily over the next 25 years: in Canada, 10,000 newcases of AD are diagnosed each year - 27 cases per day."[Edited from the book summaries and the excerpt below:http://www.mcclelland.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=0771087659http://www.thebukowskiagency.com/DyingForAHamburger.htm then Catherine said:

before 1900 most people died at or before 60, so Alzheimer's would have been less prevalent due to the nature of the population.......

then I Said:

not true

BSE seems to be incubate in relation to the lifespan of the animal in> which has consumed it> cows it takes about 5-8 years> humans about 20

> the on set of dementia on a large scale didn't start happening till> after world war II

> which just happens to coincide with when they started feeding animal> parts back to the WRONG animals

then you said;

Obviously, you're not arguing from evidence, but predicting somethingbased on your hypothesis about Alzheimer's being a prion disease.Catherine was talking about Dementias in general, not Alzheimer's, andyou only seem to be claiming a prion link for Alzheimer's. Remember, thethread is "Alzheimer's=CJD" (I'm no expert, but from what I know theAlzheimer's and CJD have very different symptoms anyway).As it happens, my recollection is that Dementias were common pre-1900,but this is only based on dimly remembered anecdotal evidence. It soundslike Catherine is speaking from survey evidence (the word is'epidemiological'), and I'd change my mind if she produced convincingevidence.What are your reasons for saying this? (I'm really looking for a sourceI can follow up here.) It doesn't match with my recollection.I'll trust you on that one; it sounds feasible. However, your hypothesis (that Alzheimer's is a prion disease) wouldpredict that Alzheimer's (not dementia in general) would risedramatically in all adult age groups (older than the twenty-yearincubation period) starting in the late 1960s (twenty years afterpost-WWII start of factory farming). Your data do not agree with yourhypothesis.If you really want to discuss this, then you might want to take it toivu-sci, the International Vegetarian Union's scientific discussiongroup. But honestly, I don't think there's any point, because I don'tthink you're supplying reasons for thinking Alzheimer's is eitherspecifically new form CJD or in general a prion disease.

then I Said:

 

Ian

I will have to dig around a bit but I can support my theory

give me a week or two

and Catherine I meant no disrespect either

and also reminding you of the first email which started all this

and Catherine listed her source

 

NOW

if you would like to keep this as a debate that is great

you don't seem that interested in anything but trying to deny what I have not presented yet

I, as did Catherine just make simple comments

you on the other hand are trying to disprove through Sarcasm

that a unsubstantiated comment is false

well no S***

so here are some more unsupported comments for you to deny

 

you live in the UK

that means unless you have been Vegan for the last 20 years +

you are unable to give blood in this country. (Australia)

and why is that do you ask?

oh because you ate meat or dairy

like the other 58,000,000 people who are now INFECTED or at least

CONTAMINATED from the prions that cause CJD that were contained in the meat and possibly the dairy

produced in your country

these are facts

they did not Kill 20,000,000 cows and burn their remains just because a couple people died

no they did this because there is a very serious problem over there.

 

now Veganism is a way a life for most of us

and the Medical science to which I was referring does not explain most ailments or afflictions

I too have a degree in Science.... Business Science

so I guess we should both proof read ourselves a bit better

Ian wrote

You post stuff which, sadly, doesn't make much sense. (I don't hold thisagainst you. Goodness knows that I have days where I may no sense atall.)

just look at the last 6 words

 

Now my comment on debate VS mudslinging

which by mentioning was a challenge not a suggestion of past actions

 

so don't let your conscience get ahead of you

 

 

Here are some links that suggest it is indeed a prion sickness

 

 

http://www.cyber-dyne.com/~tom/Alzheimer_cjd.html

 

http://www.rense.com/general32/medicalanddental.htm

 

http://www.cjd.ed.ac.uk/

 

I still need to dig up the other material I have loaded into boxes sitting in the garage

but I thought this would keep you busy for a day or so

 

you also commented on the fact that I said that the increase started after world war 2

and the incubation period is 20 years or so in humans

I did not say that every single person ate infected meat since WWII

the book I want to give as reference

I quote only from memory now

but roughly the major contamination occurred around 1985 give or take a couple years

they seem to think that the cases will start to rear there ugly heads on or about 2005

the biggest factor is what you are denying and that is with out detailed exam the symptoms between CJD

and Alzheimer's are very similar.

I will give you further reference when I can get to the book

all the best

Craig Dearth

 

 

Ian McDonald [ian]Wednesday, April 28, 2004 6:54 AM Subject: Re: Re: [100% veg*n ] Alzheimer's=CJD???

> Craig Dearth wrote:> > Ian,> I assume you are a vegan or at least a vegetarian.> so the comment you made..> I'm a vegan.> >>>>(Medical training is about diagnosis and treatment: it> doesn't necessarily mean someone can form and test a hypothesis, or> critically read a scientific paper.)> It's also suspicious that they published a book rather than a peer-> -reviewed paper.> ..Should not reference a science or medicine that does not reflect> vegan attitudesLast time I checked, being a vegan meant not eating animal productsand - with the wider definition - avoiding any other animal productsas far as is practical. Craig thinks that you also have to avoid anyapproach to solving a problem which "does not reflect vegan attitudes".This is a new one on me.As it happens, I'm a scientist. There are quite a few vegan scientists- Stephen Walsh* is probably the best known amongst vegans. I happento think that science amounts to a rigorous, open, tested, and testable(because you can check someone's results by repeating their experiment).(* In real life. Spock from Star Trek is probably better known overall:) )> I also asked you for a couple weeks to look up the info and referencesOh, right. I thought that the blurb was your answer to my question.> but I assure you for every disproof there is proof> it will all depend on the Science you believeScience does not prove anything: scientists work my making up theorieswhich explain what happens, and then conducting experiments which mightdisprove their theories to test them.> I choose not to believe that main stream medicine understands what is> happening> they try to cure everything rather than prevent> that in itself is very troubling> as for publishing a book well I think I have covered that> if you would like to continue this debate I am all for it> if you would like to mud sling get a fanYou post stuff which, sadly, doesn't make much sense. (I don't hold thisagainst you. Goodness knows that I have days where I may no sense atall.)I point this out, point by point, a bit curtly perhaps but not making itpersonal either.And then you imply I'm mud slinging?You claim I shouldn't be using science because it "does not reflectvegan attitudes"?I'm not particularly interested in discussing this for the sake of it, but I wouldn't want anyone to be taken in by you. So ... does anyonethinkthe evidence thus far presented supports the hypothesis that Alzheimer'sis a prion disease (apart from Craig)?