Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I maybe wrong here...but I don't think that is what she is saying. If she is like me...she recognizes the inherent values of ALL animals, whether they are our pets, traditional "food" animals, wild animals or even the smallest bugs. I would definitely think it's wrong to kill snakes and other less "cute" creatures simply because I think it's wrong. I think what we are trying to say is that considering the larger picture and considering where we would get our support...focusing on bugs killed for wax may not be the most efficient focus of our energy. There is a lot of animal suffering out there and we have to pick the battles that are winnable...battles which will get public support. I am skeptical that this wax issue would get any public support...in fact...I am afraid that the public would use this issue as a way to scorn us...the delegitimize us. I can see it now "Animal rights activists fight the use of bugs for waxes on oranges". While many of us would understand...it would be ripe pickens for the public to decredit us. Now if we focused on say, elephants in the circus...or veal calves....or something else the rest of the public can relate to...if even on a small level...then we have a better chance. Kristina In a message dated 7/20/04 6:37:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 10 Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:24:43 +0100 "Jo" <HeartworkRe: Digest Number 1317I tend to disagree. Admittedly bugs aren't pretty fluffy little animals,but their lives must surely be worth as much as any other. Why would adog's life be worth more?Jo-"Gaije Kushner" <gaijeMonday, July 19, 2004 8:30 PMRe: Digest Number 1317> I tend to agree. In the grand scheme of things, this is not really> something on which I'll choose to focus a lot of time and energy right> now... When the state of the world has become such that this insecty wax> stuff is a serious income producer for a serious # of producers, then> it's more worth, without which, they'd close up shop... That becomes a> different story. Till then, well, as far as I'm concerned the insects> are on their own... I don't mean to sound disrespectful of your> concerns, everyone has to pick and choose the places where they feel> most strongly, and feel they are the most able to make a difference. I> choose to focus on my own spending/consumption habits, and on doing dog> rescue... Which, while it may not make such a dent in the grand scheme> of things, certainly makes a big difference in the lives of those dogs> who would otherwise be dead.>> Gaije> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 2:33pm, lv2breathe wrote:> > You know, I admire your idealism...but if Trader Joe's is still selling> > animal parts (chicken and pork) I am not going to worry about some wax> > made by> > bugs. If it was even possible...and without a ton of support I do not> > think it> > is...I would get rid of the meat first before even thinking about> > worrying about> > the wax. And even then I'd probably put my energy towards animal> > testing or> > vivisection before that.> >> > Personally I'd focus on more winnable and more public supported> > battles...like the circus or veal or the egregious treatment of> > chickens purchased by KFC.> > Not saying you don't have merit, you do...but I don't think it's> > realistic.> >> > Kristina> >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Yes, that's much, much more like it! Gaije On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 10:14am, lv2breathe wrote: > I maybe wrong here...but I don't think that is what she is saying. If > she is > like me...she recognizes the inherent values of ALL animals, whether > they are > our pets, traditional " food " animals, wild animals or even the smallest > bugs. > I would definitely think it's wrong to kill snakes and other less > " cute " > creatures simply because I think it's wrong. > > I think what we are trying to say is that considering the larger > picture and > considering where we would get our support...focusing on bugs killed > for wax > may not be the most efficient focus of our energy. There is a lot of > animal > suffering out there and we have to pick the battles that are > winnable...battles > which will get public support. I am skeptical that this wax issue > would get > any public support...in fact...I am afraid that the public would use > this issue > as a way to scorn us...the delegitimize us. I can see it now " Animal > rights > activists fight the use of bugs for waxes on oranges " . While many of > us would > understand...it would be ripe pickens for the public to decredit us. > Now if > we focused on say, elephants in the circus...or veal calves....or > something > else the rest of the public can relate to...if even on a small > level...then we > have a better chance. > > Kristina > > In a message dated 7/20/04 6:37:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes: > Message: 10 > Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:24:43 +0100 > " Jo " <Heartwork > Re: Digest Number 1317 > > I tend to disagree. Admittedly bugs aren't pretty fluffy little > animals, > but their lives must surely be worth as much as any other. Why would a > dog's life be worth more? > > Jo > > - > " Gaije Kushner " <gaije > > Monday, July 19, 2004 8:30 PM > Re: Digest Number 1317 > > >> I tend to agree. In the grand scheme of things, this is not really >> something on which I'll choose to focus a lot of time and energy right >> now... When the state of the world has become such that this insecty >> wax >> stuff is a serious income producer for a serious # of producers, then >> it's more worth, without which, they'd close up shop... That becomes a >> different story. Till then, well, as far as I'm concerned the insects >> are on their own... I don't mean to sound disrespectful of your >> concerns, everyone has to pick and choose the places where they feel >> most strongly, and feel they are the most able to make a >> difference. I >> choose to focus on my own spending/consumption habits, and on doing >> dog >> rescue... Which, while it may not make such a dent in the grand >> scheme >> of things, certainly makes a big difference in the lives of those dogs >> who would otherwise be dead. >> >> Gaije >> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 2:33pm, lv2breathe wrote: >> > You know, I admire your idealism...but if Trader Joe's is still >> selling >> > animal parts (chicken and pork) I am not going to worry about some >> wax >> > made by >> > bugs. If it was even possible...and without a ton of support I do >> not >> > think it >> > is...I would get rid of the meat first before even thinking about >> > worrying about >> > the wax. And even then I'd probably put my energy towards animal >> > testing or >> > vivisection before that. >> > >> > Personally I'd focus on more winnable and more public supported >> > battles...like the circus or veal or the egregious treatment of >> > chickens purchased by KFC. >> > Not saying you don't have merit, you do...but I don't think it's >> > realistic. >> > >> > Kristina >> > >> > --gaije Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Hi Kristina I get your point, but incidentally most meat-eaters who ask about food that is and isn't veggie are really disgusted when they learn that even fruit is not necessarily free from animal products and even more disgusted when they realise they are eating insects - most of them ask how to avoid this fruit. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:14 PM Re: Bug wax on produce I maybe wrong here...but I don't think that is what she is saying. If she is like me...she recognizes the inherent values of ALL animals, whether they are our pets, traditional "food" animals, wild animals or even the smallest bugs. I would definitely think it's wrong to kill snakes and other less "cute" creatures simply because I think it's wrong. I think what we are trying to say is that considering the larger picture and considering where we would get our support...focusing on bugs killed for wax may not be the most efficient focus of our energy. There is a lot of animal suffering out there and we have to pick the battles that are winnable...battles which will get public support. I am skeptical that this wax issue would get any public support...in fact...I am afraid that the public would use this issue as a way to scorn us...the delegitimize us. I can see it now "Animal rights activists fight the use of bugs for waxes on oranges". While many of us would understand...it would be ripe pickens for the public to decredit us. Now if we focused on say, elephants in the circus...or veal calves....or something else the rest of the public can relate to...if even on a small level...then we have a better chance. Kristina In a message dated 7/20/04 6:37:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 10 Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:24:43 +0100 "Jo" <HeartworkRe: Digest Number 1317I tend to disagree. Admittedly bugs aren't pretty fluffy little animals,but their lives must surely be worth as much as any other. Why would adog's life be worth more?Jo-"Gaije Kushner" <gaijeMonday, July 19, 2004 8:30 PMRe: Digest Number 1317> I tend to agree. In the grand scheme of things, this is not really> something on which I'll choose to focus a lot of time and energy right> now... When the state of the world has become such that this insecty wax> stuff is a serious income pr! oducer for a serious # of producers, then> it's more worth, without which, they'd close up shop... That becomes a> different story. Till then, well, as far as I'm concerned the insects> are on their own... I don't mean to sound disrespectful of your> concerns, everyone has to pick and choose the places where they feel> most strongly, and feel they are the most able to make a difference. I> choose to focus on my own spending/consumption habits, and on doing dog> rescue... Which, while it may not make such a dent in the grand scheme> of things, certainly makes a big difference in the lives of those dogs> who would otherwise be dead.>> Gaije> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 2:33pm, lv2breathe wrote:> > You know, I admire your idealism...but if Trader Joe's is still selling> > animal parts (chicken and pork) I am not going to worry about some wax> > made ! by> > bugs. If it was even possible...and without a ton of support I do not> > think it> > is...I would get rid of the meat first before even thinking about> > worrying about> > the wax. And even then I'd probably put my energy towards animal> > testing or> > vivisection before that.> >> > Personally I'd focus on more winnable and more public supported> > battles...like the circus or veal or the egregious treatment of> > chickens purchased by KFC.> > Not saying you don't have merit, you do...but I don't think it's> > realistic.> >> > Kristina> >> >To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I'll respectfully disagree hear - I've been asking around, and they actually don't seem to care a bit.... Gaije On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 3:59pm, Jo wrote: > Hi Kristina > > I get your point, but incidentally most meat-eaters who ask about food > that is and isn't veggie are really disgusted when they learn that even > fruit is not necessarily free from animal products and even more > disgusted when they realise they are eating insects - most of them ask > how to avoid this fruit. > > Jo > - > lv2breathe > > Cc: Lv2breathe > Tuesday, July 20, 2004 3:14 PM > Re: Bug wax on produce > > > I maybe wrong here...but I don't think that is what she is saying. > If she is like me...she recognizes the inherent values of ALL animals, > whether they are our pets, traditional " food " animals, wild animals or > even the smallest bugs. I would definitely think it's wrong to kill > snakes and other less " cute " creatures simply because I think it's > wrong. > > I think what we are trying to say is that considering the larger > picture and considering where we would get our support...focusing on > bugs killed for wax may not be the most efficient focus of our energy. > There is a lot of animal suffering out there and we have to pick the > battles that are winnable...battles which will get public support. I > am skeptical that this wax issue would get any public support...in > fact...I am afraid that the public would use this issue as a way to > scorn us...the delegitimize us. I can see it now " Animal rights > activists fight the use of bugs for waxes on oranges " . While many of > us would understand...it would be ripe pickens for the public to > decredit us. Now if we focused on say, elephants in the circus...or > veal calves....or something else the rest of the public can relate > to...if even on a small level...then we have a better chance. > > Kristina > > In a message dated 7/20/04 6:37:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > writes: > Message: 10 > Tue, 20 Jul 2004 01:24:43 +0100 > " Jo " <Heartwork > Re: Digest Number 1317 > > I tend to disagree. Admittedly bugs aren't pretty fluffy little > animals, > but their lives must surely be worth as much as any other. Why > would a > dog's life be worth more? > > Jo > > - > " Gaije Kushner " <gaije > > Monday, July 19, 2004 8:30 PM > Re: Digest Number 1317 > > > > I tend to agree. In the grand scheme of things, this is not > really > > something on which I'll choose to focus a lot of time and energy > right > > now... When the state of the world has become such that this > insecty wax > > stuff is a serious income pr! oducer for a serious # of > producers, then > > it's more worth, without which, they'd close up shop... That > becomes a > > different story. Till then, well, as far as I'm concerned the > insects > > are on their own... I don't mean to sound disrespectful of your > > concerns, everyone has to pick and choose the places where they > feel > > most strongly, and feel they are the most able to make a > difference. I > > choose to focus on my own spending/consumption habits, and on > doing dog > > rescue... Which, while it may not make such a dent in the grand > scheme > > of things, certainly makes a big difference in the lives of those > dogs > > who would otherwise be dead. > > > > Gaije > > On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 2:33pm, lv2breathe wrote: > > > You know, I admire your idealism...but if Trader Joe's is still > selling > > > animal parts (chicken and pork) I am not going to worry about > some wax > > > made ! by > > > bugs. If it was even possible...and without a ton of support I > do not > > > think it > > > is...I would get rid of the meat first before even thinking > about > > > worrying about > > > the wax. And even then I'd probably put my energy towards > animal > > > testing or > > > vivisection before that. > > > > > > Personally I'd focus on more winnable and more public supported > > > battles...like the circus or veal or the egregious treatment of > > > chickens purchased by KFC. > > > Not saying you don't have merit, you do...but I don't think > it's > > > realistic. > > > > > > Kristina > > > > > > > > > To send an email to > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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