Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cd39 writes: jen I couldn't have said it better. if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... but I can't so I try to change one person at a time that is what I can do peace and love Craig i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole "i dont eat a lot of meat" deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said "well some doctors say we are herbivores and some say we are not" and i told her "its science, we are herbivores." and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy life style and still got very sick from it. anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. heart,jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 jen I couldn't have said it better. if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... but I can't so I try to change one person at a time that is what I can do peace and love Craig Everyday vegans and nonvegans worldwide involve themselves in harming living things.. simply wearing cotton, driving our cars, going into our office buildings, coffee we drink, diamonds we wear.. the list goes on....xo Tara you are so right. lots of non vegan people i`ve met try to "trick me." you know how it goes: the stupid questions like "if you were in a wild forest and you had to killa nimals to live, would you?" or "if a bear was going to attack you and you had a gun would you kill yourself" etc. etc. and theres always those questions like "well you guy garden vegan burgers and gardenburger makes a non vegan veggie burger- isnt that supporting non vegan corporations?" and i simply say "just becuase i bought a car where the company makes a car with leather, even though i bought the non leather one, doesnt make me any less vegan. this world is soooo revolved around animals for its products that it is impossible to be 100% vegan. but you do what you can and you try as hard as you can" heart,jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 jen, here is my shoulder Craig xjenisveganx [xjenisveganx]Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: A life is a life? In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cd39 writes: jen I couldn't have said it better. if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... but I can't so I try to change one person at a time that is what I can do peace and love Craig i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole "i dont eat a lot of meat" deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said "well some doctors say we are herbivores and some say we are not" and i told her "its science, we are herbivores." and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy life style and still got very sick from it. anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. heart,jen.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 also jen, in reply the only vegans that are unhealthy are the ones that don't eat right but that is true of all people the problem lies in the we are a minority and like all minorities the finger is pointed whenever they can caste dispersions to make themselves feel better be strong and the love of all of us is with you Craig xjenisveganx [xjenisveganx]Thursday, July 22, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: A life is a life? In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cd39 writes: jen I couldn't have said it better. if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... but I can't so I try to change one person at a time that is what I can do peace and love Craig i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole "i dont eat a lot of meat" deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said "well some doctors say we are herbivores and some say we are not" and i told her "its science, we are herbivores." and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy life style and still got very sick from it. anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. heart,jen.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Jo You are very right...we may just be very ignorant. The pain a beetle suffers may indeed be just as great...and maybe we don't see it because they are so small! I guess part of why I think the way I do is from yogic philosophy...and the whole karma thing. The different levels of animals have different levels of development (according to this philosophy) and thus have different levels of consciousness. If this is true...I'll save the higher conscious animals before the lower. I think I'd go crazy if I had to start fretting over bugs killed....I mean that would mean billions and billions more. Unfortunately I am at my limit with the unfortunate farm animals...that's about as much as I can bear. Kristina In a message dated 7/21/04 11:58:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Maybe the assumption that the suffering is not the same is just a mistake made through ignorance.Joi agree completly. a lot of people think that vegans think that all life is equal and thats that. but in reality we understand that to kill a bee gathering honey isnt so bad for the bee than it is to kill a cow in a slaughter house. one dies much faster and doesnt suffer like the cows do. i have never said that a crabs life is more important than that of a cow or even my own. though i think that a crab is an animal and does deserve a life there is still a destinction as to how much pain and suffering one animal experiences over another. so yeah. i agree. heart, jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 In a message dated 7/22/2004 12:02:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, cd39 writes: jen, here is my shoulder Craig hahah thanks! i suppose i should just weed out the people in my life who just arent good for me. hard to do though. oh well. heart,jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Jen, I know exactly how you feel when arguing with people about what humans are (omnivores, herbivores etc.).. They somehow always comeback with the damn " My doctor said... blah blah " Funny thing is, while at the AR conference Dr. Greger talked specifically about doctors and their knowledge of nutrition. Some survey was taken to test people's basic knowledge of nutriton dealing with everyday people and doctors-Results were everyday people got more answers right than the doctors!!!! I then found this, which is kinda neat, (scroll down right to The Cholesterol Argument) xo Tara The Facts About Eating Animal Products... by John Robbins, author of " Diet for a New America " and founder of Earthsave International. The Hunger Argument: Number of People worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced meat intake by 10%: 60 million Human beings in America: 243 million Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by US livestock: 1.3 billion Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by people: 20% Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by livestock: 80% Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90% Percentage of oats grown in US eaten by livestock: 95% How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20,000 lbs Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165 lbs Percentage of US farmland devoted to beef production: 56% Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16 lbs. The Environmental Argument: Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect Primary cause of greenhouse effect: Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more Percentage of US topsoil lost to date: 75% Percentage of US topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85% Number of acres of US forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 million acres Amount of meat US imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Panama: 200,000,000 pounds Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salveador, Guatemala, Honduras, and Panama: Less than eaten by average US house cat Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pounder hamburger: 55 sq. ft. Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses: 1,000 species extinct per year The Cancer Argument: Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat four times a week vs. less than once a week: 4 times Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat eggs daily vs less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat cheese and butter 3 or more times a week vs less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs less than once a week: 3 times Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk daily vs sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times The Natural Resources Argument: User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the US: Livestock production Amount of water to produce a pound of wheat: 25 gallons Amount of water to produce a pound of meat: 2,500 gallons Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by US taxpayer: $35/pound Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: $89 Years the world's known oil reserves will last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 years Years the world's known oil reserves will last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 years Barrels of oil imported into US daily: 6.8 million Percentage of fossil fuel energy returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming of meat: 34.5 percent Percentage returned as food energy from least efficient plant food: 328% Percentage of raw materials consumed by US to produce present meat-centered diet: 33% The Cholesterol Argument: Number of US Medical Schools: 125 Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 Nutrition training received by average US physician during four years in medical school: 2.5 hours Most common cause of death in the US: Heart attack How frequently a heart attack kills in the US: Every 45 seconds Average US man's risk of death from heart attack: 50% Risk for average US man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15% Risk for average US vegan man: 4% Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of animal products by 10 percent: 9% Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of animal products by 50 percent: 45% Amount you reduce risk by changing to a vegan diet: 90 percent Meat, dairy, and egg industries claim you should not be concerned about your blood cholesterol if it is: " normal " Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is " normal " : >50% The Antibiotic Argument: Percentage of US antibiotics fed to livestock: 55% Percentage of staph infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13% Percentage of staph infections resistant to penicillin in 1988: 91% Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: Ban Respons of US meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: Full and complete support The Pesticide Argument: Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by grains: 1% Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by fruits: 4% Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by vegetables: 6% Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by dairy products: 23% Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by meat: 55% Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat eating mothers vs non-meat eating: 35 times higher What USDA tells us: Meat is inspected Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxic chemicals such as dioxin and DDT: <0.00004% The Ethical Argument: Number of animals killed for meat per hour in US: 500,000 Occupation with highest turnover rate in US: Slaughterhouse Worker Occupation with the highest rate of on-the-job injury in US: Slaughterhouse Worker Cost to render animal unconscious with " captive bolt pistol " : 1 cent Reason given by meat industry fo not using " captive bolt pistol " : Too expensive -- In , xjenisveganx@a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > cd39@e... writes: > > jen > I couldn't have said it better. > if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... > but I can't so I try to change one person at a time > that is what I can do > peace and love > Craig > > > > i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she > was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) > and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole " i dont > eat a lot of meat " deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and > she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef > with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i > dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the > issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she > just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for > survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are > herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a > long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said " well some doctors > say we are herbivores and some say we are not " and i told her " its science, > we are herbivores. " and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy > life style and still got very sick from it. > anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the > picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. > > heart, > jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hi Jen It must have been vry frustrating for you. You said all the right things - I suppose she's just choosing not to listen. Jo - xjenisveganx Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:31 AM Re: A life is a life? In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cd39 writes: jen I couldn't have said it better. if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... but I can't so I try to change one person at a time that is what I can do peace and love Craig i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole "i dont eat a lot of meat" deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said "well some doctors say we are herbivores and some say we are not" and i told her "its science, we are herbivores." and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy life style and still got very sick from it. anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. heart,jen.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hi Kristina It can be overwhelming at times - to think of all the suffering that goes on. I think we all just do our bit, as much as we can at the time. BBJo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Thursday, July 22, 2004 3:10 PM Re:A life is a life? Jo You are very right...we may just be very ignorant. The pain a beetle suffers may indeed be just as great...and maybe we don't see it because they are so small! I guess part of why I think the way I do is from yogic philosophy...and the whole karma thing. The different levels of animals have different levels of development (according to this philosophy) and thus have different levels of consciousness. If this is true...I'll save the higher conscious animals before the lower. I think I'd go crazy if I had to start fretting over bugs killed....I mean that would mean billions and billions more. Unfortunately I am at my limit with the unfortunate farm animals...that's about as much as I can bear. Kristina In a message dated 7/21/04 11:58:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Maybe the assumption that the suffering is not the same is just a mistake made through ignorance.Joi agree completly. a lot of people think that vegans think that all life is equal and thats that. but in reality we understand that to kill a bee gathering honey isnt so bad for the bee than it is to kill a cow in a slaughter house. one dies much faster and doesnt suffer like the cows do. i have never said that a crabs life is more important than that of a cow or even my own. though i think that a crab is an animal and does deserve a life there is still a destinction as to how much pain and suffering one animal experiences over another. so yeah. i agree. heart, jen. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 I always thought that normal people knew more about nutrition than doctors. I suppose doctors don't have the time or inclination to study up on it, and I know in the UK they spend hardly any time at all on nutrition during their training. Thanks for all the information - it's good to have it all in one place. Jo - " apprendsvegan " <tarasch7 Thursday, July 22, 2004 4:39 PM Re: A life is a life? > Jen, > > I know exactly how you feel when arguing with people about what humans are > (omnivores, herbivores etc.).. They somehow always comeback with the damn " My doctor > said... blah blah " Funny thing is, while at the AR conference Dr. Greger talked > specifically about doctors and their knowledge of nutrition. Some survey was taken to test > people's basic knowledge of nutriton dealing with everyday people and doctors-Results > were everyday people got more answers right than the doctors!!!! > > I then found this, which is kinda neat, (scroll down right to The Cholesterol Argument) > > xo Tara > > > The Facts About Eating Animal Products... > > > by John Robbins, author of " Diet for a New America " and founder of Earthsave > International. > > The Hunger Argument: > Number of People worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million > Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced > meat intake by 10%: 60 million > Human beings in America: 243 million > Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by US livestock: > 1.3 billion > Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by people: 20% > Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by livestock: 80% > Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90% > Percentage of oats grown in US eaten by livestock: 95% > How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds > Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20,000 lbs > Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165 lbs > Percentage of US farmland devoted to beef production: 56% > Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16 lbs. > > > The Environmental Argument: > > Cause of global warming: greenhouse effect > Primary cause of greenhouse effect: Carbon Dioxide from fossil fuels > Fossil fuels needed to produce a meat-centered diet vs. a meat-free diet: 50 times more > Percentage of US topsoil lost to date: 75% > Percentage of US topsoil loss directly related to livestock raising: 85% > Number of acres of US forest cleared for cropland to produce meat-centered diet: 260 > million acres > Amount of meat US imports annually from Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, > and Panama: 200,000,000 pounds > Average per capita meat consumption in Costa Rica, El Salveador, Guatemala, Honduras, > and Panama: Less than eaten by average US house cat > Area of tropical rainforest consumed in every quarter-pounder hamburger: 55 sq. ft. > Current rate of species extinction due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat > grazing and other uses: 1,000 species extinct per year > > > The Cancer Argument: > > Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat meat four times a week vs. less than > once a week: 4 times > Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat eggs daily vs less than once a week: 3 > times > Increased risk of breast cancer for women who eat cheese and butter 3 or more times a > week vs less than once a week: 3 times > Increased risk of ovarian cancer for women who eat eggs 3 or more times a week vs less > than once a week: 3 times > Increased risk of fatal prostate cancer for men who consume meat, cheese, eggs and milk > daily vs sparingly or not at all: 3.6 times > > > The Natural Resources Argument: > > User of more than half of all water used for all purposes in the US: Livestock production > Amount of water to produce a pound of wheat: 25 gallons > Amount of water to produce a pound of meat: 2,500 gallons > Cost of common hamburger if water used by meat industry was not subsidized by US > taxpayer: $35/pound > Current cost of pound of protein from beefsteak, if water was no longer subsidized: $89 > Years the world's known oil reserves will last if every human ate a meat-centered diet: 13 > years > Years the world's known oil reserves will last if human beings no longer ate meat: 260 > years > Barrels of oil imported into US daily: 6.8 million > Percentage of fossil fuel energy returned as food energy by most efficient factory farming > of meat: 34.5 percent > Percentage returned as food energy from least efficient plant food: 328% > Percentage of raw materials consumed by US to produce present meat-centered diet: 33% > > > The Cholesterol Argument: > > Number of US Medical Schools: 125 > Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 > Nutrition training received by average US physician during four years in medical school: > 2.5 hours > Most common cause of death in the US: Heart attack > How frequently a heart attack kills in the US: Every 45 seconds > Average US man's risk of death from heart attack: 50% > Risk for average US man who avoids the meat-centered diet: 15% > Risk for average US vegan man: 4% > Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of animal products by > 10 percent: 9% > Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of animal products by > 50 percent: 45% > Amount you reduce risk by changing to a vegan diet: 90 percent > Meat, dairy, and egg industries claim you should not be concerned about your blood > cholesterol if it is: " normal " > Your risk of dying of a disease caused by clogged arteries if your blood cholesterol is > " normal " : >50% > > > The Antibiotic Argument: > > > Percentage of US antibiotics fed to livestock: 55% > Percentage of staph infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13% > Percentage of staph infections resistant to penicillin in 1988: 91% > Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: > Ban > Respons of US meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to > livestock: Full and complete support > > > The Pesticide Argument: > > > Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by grains: 1% > Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by fruits: 4% > Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by vegetables: 6% > Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by dairy products: 23% > Percentage of pesticide residues in the US diet supplied by meat: 55% > Pesticide contamination of breast milk from meat eating mothers vs non-meat eating: 35 > times higher > What USDA tells us: Meat is inspected > Percentage of slaughtered animals inspected for residues of toxic chemicals such as > dioxin and DDT: <0.00004% > > > The Ethical Argument: > > > Number of animals killed for meat per hour in US: 500,000 > Occupation with highest turnover rate in US: Slaughterhouse Worker > Occupation with the highest rate of on-the-job injury in US: Slaughterhouse Worker > Cost to render animal unconscious with " captive bolt pistol " : 1 cent > Reason given by meat industry fo not using " captive bolt pistol " : Too expensive > > > -- In , xjenisveganx@a... wrote: > > > > > > In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > > cd39@e... writes: > > > > jen > > I couldn't have said it better. > > if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... > > but I can't so I try to change one person at a time > > that is what I can do > > peace and love > > Craig > > > > > > > > i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she > > was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) > > and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole " i dont > > eat a lot of meat " deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and > > she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef > > with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i > > dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the > > issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she > > just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for > > survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are > > herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a > > long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said " well some doctors > > say we are herbivores and some say we are not " and i told her " its science, > > we are herbivores. " and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy > > life style and still got very sick from it. > > anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the > > picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. > > > > heart, > > jen. > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 To me it sounds like this friend was just looking to pick a fight with you. I pretty much refuse to get drawn into these kinds of rancorous discussions with people. It's a waste of time and energy. When I sense a conversation shifting in that direction, I tend to say something like, " This seems to me like a really pointless conversation. You know what you think, I know what I think, and it's pretty ridiculously unlikely that either of us is going to change the other's mind, so let's just move on, ok? " Some topics, animal rights, the middle east, abortion, are often fodder for the sort of person who likes to argue for sport, and where people have completely divergent opinions on this stuff, there's really no hope of any kind of resolution through " discussion. " Gaije On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 1:28pm, Jo wrote: > Hi Jen > > It must have been vry frustrating for you. You said all the right > things - I suppose she's just choosing not to listen. > > Jo > - > xjenisveganx > > Thursday, July 22, 2004 7:31 AM > Re: A life is a life? > > > In a message dated 7/21/2004 11:26:29 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > cd39 writes: > jen > I couldn't have said it better. > if I could I would stop all animal farming etc... > but I can't so I try to change one person at a time > that is what I can do > peace and love > Craig > i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian > when she was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt > know her then) and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. > like the whole " i dont eat a lot of meat " deal and theres been sooo > many times we`ll be at lunch and she`ll tell me shes thinking of going > vegetarian again and then orders beef with broccoli. and im like, dont > try to act like your something your not. i dont care what you do with > your life just as long as your educated about the issues. you stay out > of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she just got on my > nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for survival. > i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are > herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we > have a long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said " well > some doctors say we are herbivores and some say we are not " and i told > her " its science, we are herbivores. " and she said how some of her > vegan friends led a healthy life style and still got very sick from it. > anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the > picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. > > heart, > jen. > > > To send an email to > - > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 It's really NOT so hard, once you give it a go. If there are people around who consistently leave you feeling rotten after being with them, try giving them a long time out, rather than ending the relationship entirely, and see how that feels. If, after a break, you elect to renew contact, you may find that you're better able to discuss whatever wierd dynamic has lead to the trouble in the first place. Or, after a break, you may realize that you don't actually miss them at all, and were holding onto the relationship more for the sake of habit, or whatever, than any real connection.... Kind of off topic, I know, but just my two cents! Gaije On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 2:02pm, xjenisveganx wrote: > > > In a message dated 7/22/2004 12:02:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > cd39 writes: > > jen, > here is my shoulder > Craig > > > > hahah thanks! > > i suppose i should just weed out the people in my life who just arent > good > for me. hard to do though. oh well. > > heart, > jen. --gaije Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Sounds like very sensible advice to me. Jo > It's really NOT so hard, once you give it a go. If there are people > around who consistently leave you feeling rotten after being with them, > try giving them a long time out, rather than ending the relationship > entirely, and see how that feels. If, after a break, you elect to renew > contact, you may find that you're better able to discuss whatever wierd > dynamic has lead to the trouble in the first place. Or, after a break, > you may realize that you don't actually miss them at all, and were > holding onto the relationship more for the sake of habit, or whatever, > than any real connection.... Kind of off topic, I know, but just my two > cents! > > Gaije Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Sometimes therapy works! Gaije On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 4:59pm, Peter wrote: > Sounds like very sensible advice to me. Jo > It's really NOT so hard, once you give it a go. If there are people > around who consistently leave you feeling rotten after being with > them, > try giving them a long time out, rather than ending the relationship > entirely, and see how that feels. If, after a break, you elect to > renew > contact, you may find that you're better able to discuss whatever > wierd > dynamic has lead to the trouble in the first place. Or, after a > break, > you may realize that you don't actually miss them at all, and were > holding onto the relationship more for the sake of habit, or whatever, > than any real connection.... Kind of off topic, I know, but just my > two > cents! > > Gaije To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 In a message dated 7/23/2004 8:19:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, gagrip5 writes: I totally agree. Also, an argument over whether we are designed to eat meat seems totally pointless, now that I think about it. I mean, we have free will and can control our own actions, so what does it matter? I don't know anyone whom this line of reasoning has ever convinced. While interesting in an academic sense, this seems like a red herring to distract the attention from what good our actions can do for animals, the earth, our health right now.peace;sara hah yeah you are right. the only time i bring up the "we werent designed to do this" argument is when someone tells me we are. yeah... i should just not get into discussions with people about this stuff. but when people start to pick a fight. arrgh! heart,jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Not to nit-pick the point, but humans really are designed to be omnivores. In the sense of occassional meat from scavanging or hunting, along with eating insects. This may be a sort of " IMO " kind of thing, but if you look at our closest animal relatives, I think that is your best indication. peace; sara , xjenisveganx@a... wrote: > > i got into an argument with my friend tonight she was vegetarian when she > was in her first years of college then she stopped. (i didnt know her then) > and now she isnt. but she still kind of claims to be. like the whole " i dont > eat a lot of meat " deal and theres been sooo many times we`ll be at lunch and > she`ll tell me shes thinking of going vegetarian again and then orders beef > with broccoli. and im like, dont try to act like your something your not. i > dont care what you do with your life just as long as your educated about the > issues. you stay out of my business and i stay out of yours. but tonight- she > just got on my nerves. telling me that animals were placed on this earth for > survival. i almost peed my pants in anger. i tried to tell her that humans are > herbivored not omnivores or carnivores. and i explained to her why we have a > long digestive track, intestines, and colon but she said " well some doctors > say we are herbivores and some say we are not " and i told her " its science, > we are herbivores. " and she said how some of her vegan friends led a healthy > life style and still got very sick from it. > anyway, im not gonna get into all that happend cause you guys get the > picture. i was so irritated though, oh geez. > > heart, > jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 I totally agree. Also, an argument over whether we are designed to eat meat seems totally pointless, now that I think about it. I mean, we have free will and can control our own actions, so what does it matter? I don't know anyone whom this line of reasoning has ever convinced. While interesting in an academic sense, this seems like a red herring to distract the attention from what good our actions can do for animals, the earth, our health right now. peace; sara , Gaije Kushner <gaije@t...> wrote: > To me it sounds like this friend was just looking to pick a fight with > you. I pretty much refuse to get drawn into these kinds of rancorous > discussions with people. It's a waste of time and energy. When I sense > a conversation shifting in that direction, I tend to say something like, > " This seems to me like a really pointless conversation. You know what > you think, I know what I think, and it's pretty ridiculously unlikely > that either of us is going to change the other's mind, so let's just > move on, ok? " Some topics, animal rights, the middle east, abortion, > are often fodder for the sort of person who likes to argue for sport, > and where people have completely divergent opinions on this stuff, > there's really no hope of any kind of resolution through " discussion. " > Gaije Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Oh, I agree that we are designed primarily as herbivores. By omnivore I mean mostly scavanger-type. Also insects, eggs, other " easy pickings. " Obviously, we are not well designed to run down and kill our own meat (without tools, anyway). And there is no way we could subsist on a solely meat-based diet. Please prove to me that we must cook meat to eat it. I often consumed raw fish back in the day (sushi) and never once felt even slightly ill. Even after humans started cooking their meat, many cultures still ate certain parts of the animal raw, mostly organs. The illnesses you hear about from undercooked meat are the result of diseased animals from factory farming and/or unsanitary packing and handling conditions. Can you tell I like to question everything? peace; sara , xjenisveganx@a... wrote: > > hmm. i have to disagree for these simple facts: > > herbivores have a long digestive tract, long intestins, and a long colon. > carnivores/omnivores have short ones. reason being- they can process meat faster > and not become obese. herbivores have certian parts of their saliva to break > down carbohydrates- carnivores/omnivores. the teeth of herbivores and > carni/omnis are much different (yes, our human teeth are like that of an > herbivore). and lastly, the human race is the only race that has to cook the flesh > before eating it. other carni/omnis eat it raw, in addition to that they eat all > parts of the animal whereas humans have to eat certian parts and cook it in > order to not become sick. and yes, i know that some eskimos do eat raw fish > but like i heard someone say once- do they go and eat an elk? > > so thats my reasoning for saying that we are herbivores. oh and also... i > heard steve yourfoski (sp?) say " if you put a young child in a crib with a bunny > and an apple and the child plays with the apple and eats the bunny then i am > very wrong " > > yeah so thats what i think. > > heart, > jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 Yeah, actually I enjoy arguing with some people, even pointlessly, just cause they tick me off. I understand. sara , xjenisveganx@a... wrote: > hah yeah you are right. the only time i bring up the " we werent designed to > do this " argument is when someone tells me we are. yeah... i should just not > get into discussions with people about this stuff. but when people start to > pick a fight. arrgh! > > > heart, > jen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 We can and would catch worms from eating uncooked animals no matter how wild they were. Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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