No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the world are vegan

[Guest guest]

I was " justifying " my switch to a plant-based diet, talking about not

needing animal products for health as well as the horrible manner in

which we keep and butcher " food " animals in this country and was told

(by two friends, btw) that it just isn't natural to be vegan, that no

other cultures or indiginous cultures around the world do this.

EVERYBODY eats meat, I was told. Well, they got me there but agreed

about the need to at least eat organic and that livestock is treated

terribly here. I wasn't expecting the " indiginous " response and it's

really bothering me that I couldn't answer that one! They also

pointed out that from an evolutionary standpoint, we are omnivores.

I didn't think of it at the time but it occurs to me that I have

heard hunting was rare in the Stone Age, that we were more the hunted

and rather ate over 800 varieties of nuts, seed, berries, fruits, and

plants. What do you all think?

[Guest guest]

well

ok then

i've probably pontificated on this in the past...but..

one...assuming you believe in evolution...our earliest primate ancestors were omnivores, if consider eating occassional bugs and birds eggs as an ominverous diet

we would have eaten a diet rich in fruit, and well..fruit..with leaves and wot not....

the austrolopithecines(lucy et al) were vegetarians

and, corprolites(fossilized poo) suggest that early humans ate a VERY vegetarian diet...

but..it is a more romantic notion (fer some reason)ound in animal skins hotting and chasing big mammoths with pointy sticks....

ok..who here has been hunting??? go ahead..even if you think its disgusting..we've all done bad things in our past...anyways..if you've gone hunting, have you do it with a stick??? even a sharpened stick?? catch anything??? besides a cold......

early man's reliance on hunting is vastly overstated...

ANd...when you go digging around in early man sites..wot do you find? stone tools...why...?? because they are bloody stone...

wot don't you find?

well..the baskets they used to GATHER!!!! woven grass baskets fer some reason just don't last 200,000 yrs very well...go figure

note..hunter GATHERERS!!..

the gathering part is always left out

now..if you are x-tian

right there in the bibile...genesis...we were originally vegetarians...

ok..now..historical cultures that were vegetarian..there are SCORES of historical societies who ate a vegetarian diet...off the top of my head...Essenes, Pythagorenes, there were greek islands which were entirely veg, cultures in iran and india that were VEGAN for over a thouand years..

budhists

carmelites

etc and so forth...

actually, MOST cultures historically were mostly vegetarian with a bit of meat tossed in....

excluding the inuits and such...

cheers

fraggle

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

wibberbie wrote:

>

> I was " justifying " my switch to a plant-based diet, talking about not

> needing animal products for health as well as the horrible manner in

> which we keep and butcher " food " animals in this country and was told

> (by two friends, btw) that it just isn't natural to be vegan, that no

> other cultures or indiginous cultures around the world do this.

 

I agree with them that veganism isn't natural. But I think that they're

missing the point. It's *right*, darnit.

 

We've got brains to consider the ethics of our actions, and sometimes

that means that we'll reject something as unethical. There's absolutely

no guarantee that what's natural and what's ethical is the same thing.

[Guest guest]

Hi Wibberbie

 

> I was " justifying " my switch to a plant-based diet, talking about not

> needing animal products for health as well as the horrible manner in

> which we keep and butcher " food " animals in this country and was told

> (by two friends, btw) that it just isn't natural to be vegan, that no

> other cultures or indiginous cultures around the world do this.

 

Yeah.. but then, how many " indigenous " cultures use computers, or watch

television??? None of us exactly live a " natural " life!

 

Humans are unnatural by nature :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

I don't think our ancestors were omnivores. The oldest human remains found were tested, and found to be vegan. We are told that we are related to apes - they don't eat meat. OUr intestines are too long to have been intended for meat, but not long enough to live on grass, so our intended diet is berries, nuts, seeds, fruit and some leaves. I cannot remember which way round it is, but our saliva is not suitable for eating meat.

 

It does not matter however, what our ancestors did, or what other people do. We are evolving all the time, and vegans are just more evolved than others. There's no other way to exlain it really.

 

Jo

 

-

wibberbie

Monday, August 30, 2004 4:34 AM

No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the world are vegan

I was "justifying" my switch to a plant-based diet, talking about not needing animal products for health as well as the horrible manner in which we keep and butcher "food" animals in this country and was told (by two friends, btw) that it just isn't natural to be vegan, that no other cultures or indiginous cultures around the world do this. EVERYBODY eats meat, I was told. Well, they got me there but agreed about the need to at least eat organic and that livestock is treated terribly here. I wasn't expecting the "indiginous" response and it's really bothering me that I couldn't answer that one! They also pointed out that from an evolutionary standpoint, we are omnivores. I didn't think of it at the time but it occurs to me that I have heard hunting was rare in the Stone Age, that we were more the hunted and rather ate over 800 varieties of nuts, seed, berries, fruits, and plants. What do you all think?To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

Jo:

> I don't think our ancestors were omnivores. The oldest human remains found

were tested, and

> found to be vegan.

 

This, frankly, sounds too good to be true. It also sounds very hard to

quantify. (How do you verify that a two-million year old dead body was

vegan? You can look for coprolites and rubbish, but that doesn't confirm

anything.) What's your source for this?

 

> We are told that

> we are related to apes - they don't eat meat.

 

Actually, we *are* apes. But some do eat meat; the first example that

pops into my head is chimpanzees digging insects out with a stick.

 

> OUr intestines are too long to have been intended for meat, but not long

enough to live

> on grass, so our intended diet is berries, nuts, seeds, fruit and some leaves.

 

That sounds very simplistic to me. All I can say with confidence,

though, is that we've got the enzymes (I'm a biochemist, so I'm going to

focus on those) for cooked meat and a whole bunch of plants.

 

> I cannot remember which way round it is, but our

> saliva is not suitable for eating meat.

 

Saliva doesn't deal with much of digestion anyway.

 

> It does not matter however, what our ancestors did, or what other people do.

We are evolving all > the time, and vegans are just more

> evolved than others. There's no other way to exlain it really.

 

Ahh, progress pushing forward. Social and biological change conflated

into one. Ironically, that's terribly Victorian . But I know what you

mean, and agree.

[Guest guest]

Yes, I think Jo has reach the crux of the matter here. It simply does

not matter what our ancestors did. We have free will and the ability

to make informed, conscience choices.

sara

 

, " Jo bb " <Heartwork@b...> wrote:

 

> It does not matter however, what our ancestors did, or what other

people do. We are evolving all the time, and vegans are just more

evolved than others. There's no other way to exlain it really.

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

Ian

 

Like most people I cannot remember my source for this. I heard it on the BBC news about a year maybe two years ago, and I think it was also reported in either The Vegan or The Vegetarian.

 

-

Ian McDonald

Monday, August 30, 2004 6:49 PM

Re: No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the world are vegan

Jo: > I don't think our ancestors were omnivores. The oldest human remains found were tested, and > found to be vegan. This, frankly, sounds too good to be true. It also sounds very hard toquantify. (How do you verify that a two-million year old dead body wasvegan? You can look for coprolites and rubbish, but that doesn't confirmanything.) What's your source for this?> We are told that> we are related to apes - they don't eat meat. Actually, we *are* apes. But some do eat meat; the first example thatpops into my head is chimpanzees digging insects out with a stick.> OUr intestines are too long to have been intended for meat, but not long enough to live> on grass, so our intended diet is berries, nuts, seeds, fruit and some leaves. That sounds very simplistic to me. All I can say with confidence,though, is that we've got the enzymes (I'm a biochemist, so I'm going tofocus on those) for cooked meat and a whole bunch of plants.> I cannot remember which way round it is, but our> saliva is not suitable for eating meat.Saliva doesn't deal with much of digestion anyway.> It does not matter however, what our ancestors did, or what other people do. We are evolving all > the time, and vegans are just more> evolved than others. There's no other way to exlain it really.Ahh, progress pushing forward. Social and biological change conflatedinto one. Ironically, that's terribly Victorian . But I know what youmean, and agree.To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

*shrug*

studies of corprolites show that many of the austrolopithecines were pretty dang veg

i have to go find my sources again

alas, i use to have some of this saved..

thank you compuserve fer dumping me, and losing all my data...

fraggle Jo bb Aug 30, 2004 1:41 PM Re: No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the world are vegan

 

Ian

 

Like most people I cannot remember my source for this. I heard it on the BBC news about a year maybe two years ago, and I think it was also reported in either The Vegan or The Vegetarian.

 

-

Ian McDonald

Monday, August 30, 2004 6:49 PM

Re: No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the world are vegan

Jo: > I don't think our ancestors were omnivores. The oldest human remains found were tested, and > found to be vegan. This, frankly, sounds too good to be true. It also sounds very hard toquantify. (How do you verify that a two-million year old dead body wasvegan? You can look for coprolites and rubbish, but that doesn't confirmanything.) What's your source for this?> We are told that> we are related to apes - they don't eat meat. Actually, we *are* apes. But some do eat meat; the first example thatpops into my head is chimpanzees digging insects out with a stick.> OUr intestines are too long to have been intended for meat, but not long enough to live> on grass, so our intended diet is berries, nuts, seeds, fruit and some leaves. That sounds very simplistic to me. All I can say with confidence,though, is that we've got the enzymes (I'm a biochemist, so I'm going tofocus on those) for cooked meat and a whole bunch of plants.> I cannot remember which way round it is, but our> saliva is not suitable for eating meat.Saliva doesn't deal with much of digestion anyway.> It does not matter however, what our ancestors did, or what other people do. We are evolving all > the time, and vegans are just more> evolved than others. There's no other way to exlain it really.Ahh, progress pushing forward. Social and biological change conflatedinto one. Ironically, that's terribly Victorian . But I know what youmean, and agree.To send an email to - To send an email to -

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well, thank you so much, everyone!! You have put me more at

ease,now.

 

Take care.

 

, " Jo bb " <Heartwork@b...> wrote:

> Ian

>

> Like most people I cannot remember my source for this. I heard it

on the BBC news about a year maybe two years ago, and I think it was

also reported in either The Vegan or The Vegetarian.

> -

> Ian McDonald

>

> Monday, August 30, 2004 6:49 PM

> Re: No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the

world are vegan

>

>

> Jo:

> > I don't think our ancestors were omnivores. The oldest human

remains found were tested, and

> > found to be vegan.

>

> This, frankly, sounds too good to be true. It also sounds very

hard to

> quantify. (How do you verify that a two-million year old dead

body was

> vegan? You can look for coprolites and rubbish, but that doesn't

confirm

> anything.) What's your source for this?

>

> > We are told that

> > we are related to apes - they don't eat meat.

>

> Actually, we *are* apes. But some do eat meat; the first example

that

> pops into my head is chimpanzees digging insects out with a stick.

>

> > OUr intestines are too long to have been intended for meat, but

not long enough to live

> > on grass, so our intended diet is berries, nuts, seeds, fruit

and some leaves.

>

> That sounds very simplistic to me. All I can say with confidence,

> though, is that we've got the enzymes (I'm a biochemist, so I'm

going to

> focus on those) for cooked meat and a whole bunch of plants.

>

> > I cannot remember which way round it is, but our

> > saliva is not suitable for eating meat.

>

> Saliva doesn't deal with much of digestion anyway.

>

> > It does not matter however, what our ancestors did, or what

other people do. We are evolving all > the time, and vegans are just

more

> > evolved than others. There's no other way to exlain it really.

>

> Ahh, progress pushing forward. Social and biological change

conflated

> into one. Ironically, that's terribly Victorian . But I know

what you

> mean, and agree.

>

>

> To send an email to -

 

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jo:

> Like most people I cannot remember my source for this. I heard it on the BBC

news about a year

> maybe two years ago, and I think

> it was also reported in either The Vegan or The Vegetarian.

 

I checked bbc.co.uk/news, and searched for " Vegan " . There are 4-5

stories, but none of them are about archeology. I searched for

" vegetarian " , and got 4 pages of nutrition stories and lobbying. They

seem to use the same stories as the news bulletins, and I'd expect it to

be on the website if it was on the news.

[Guest guest]

LOL - you must have more spare time than me Ian. Maybe when the report was given they didn't mention the words vegetarian or vegan - maybe they just said they they hadn't eaten any animals or animal products. I can assure you that I did here or read a report saying exactly that - why would I make it up?

 

Jo

 

Jo:> Like most people I cannot remember my source for this. I heard it on the BBC news about a year > maybe two years ago, and I think> it was also reported in either The Vegan or The Vegetarian. I checked bbc.co.uk/news, and searched for "Vegan". There are 4-5stories, but none of them are about archeology. I searched for"vegetarian", and got 4 pages of nutrition stories and lobbying. Theyseem to use the same stories as the news bulletins, and I'd expect it tobe on the website if it was on the news.To send an email to -

[Guest guest]

I know how fallible my memory is - just today, I was talking to my boss,

and my memory of how much my training course cost was a lot lower than

hers. In particular, my memory skews things in the direction I'd like

them to be. I suspect pretty much everyone is the same.

[Guest guest]

I don't think so - It doesn't matter to me whether ancients were

vegan or lived solely on meat - if you recall my last sentence or two

I said as much.

 

Jo

 

, Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote:

> I know how fallible my memory is - just today, I was talking to my

boss,

> and my memory of how much my training course cost was a lot lower

than

> hers. In particular, my memory skews things in the direction I'd

like

> them to be. I suspect pretty much everyone is the same.

[Guest guest]

if i remember correctly..search under the carbon in teeth... heartwerk Aug 31, 2004 2:07 PM Re: No indiginous (sp?) cultures around the world are vegan I don't think so - It doesn't matter to me whether ancients were vegan or lived solely on meat - if you recall my last sentence or two I said as much.Jo , Ian McDonald <ian@m...> wrote:> I know how fallible my memory is - just today, I was talking to my boss,> and my memory of how much my training course cost was a lot lower than> hers. In particular, my memory skews things in the direction I'd like> them to be. I suspect pretty much everyone is the same.To send an email to -