Site: Freegan.info

December 7, 2004

While I agree whole-heartedly with you, I think it is a matter of

one's motivation for being vegan. Some people are vegan only for

health reasons and could honestly care less about the animals. I'm

not saying it's many people, but there are definately some. Perhaps

this definition is the " least common denominator. "

sara

, " Hrvoje Nezic "

<hrvoje.nezic@e...> wrote:

> I don't know if members of the list will agree with me, but I

don't think

> that " the vegan theory is essentially a boycott of any products

that injure animals " .

>

> In my view, animal rights / liberation is the philosophy which is

essential, and

> vegetarianism / veganism is a lifestyle that is compatible with

the philosophy.

>

> Every individual can have only a very limited impact by refusing

to use or eat

> some products. As Daniel Quinn said, " People do what they think.

To change

> what they do change what they think " . In this case, what they do

is all kinds

> of cruelties toward nonhuman animals. They justify these cruelties

by

> anthropocentric philosophies which are very old and established.

> It is not enough to just stop eating and using animal products.

> In my view it is much more important to educate people about what

humans and

> nonhuman animals are, and to ask what is it that justifies such

cruel treatment

> of nonhumans. Philosophers and thinkers like Peter Singer, Tom

Regan,

> Gary Francione, Joan Dunayer, Carol J. Adams, and many, many others

> have been doing this for at least 30 years.

>

> The goal of the animal rights movement is to change the way the

society treats

> nonhuman animals. The society must change the laws and abondon

> all practices which exploit nonhuman animals. I think this cannot

be

> done just by boycots.

>

> -

> Taga Sickler

>

> Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:25 AM

> RE: Site: Freegan.info

>

> This is what freegan.info says about us vegans, this holier

than thou attitude, turns me off.

>

> -anouk

>

> Criticism of Veganism:

>

> The vegan theory is essentially a boycott of any products that

injure animals in their production. The vegan consumers are flexing

their monetary muscle and " voting with their dollars " for the

products that don't injure animals. These dollars are voting for

coca-cola, big corporate grocery stores, greasy-fast food (we all

know Taco Bell vegans), and worse. Shouldn't truly conscientious

folks seek something more? I don't vote because no matter who I vote

for, the government always wins and when you " vote with yur

dollars " , consumerism always wins, capitalism always wins. So....

make a list of allt he unethical practices that really piss you off

and make a list of all the corporations and products you want to

boycott. Veganism is a good first step, but is your only concern

animals? I made this list and when I was done, I couldn't really

justify buying anything, I couldn't get behind any aspect of the

corporate death consumer machine so I decided to boycott everything.

I still spend money sometimes (I love going out for Thai food) but I

try to be very conscientious about my consumption. Besides the

concern that veganism as an ethic for eating stops short, it is also

still a very high impact lifestyle. The packaging from vegan food

doesn't take up less space in the landfill or consume less resources

just cause the food is vegan. The whole produce and consume dynamic

is still played out, but the setting is a fancy health food store

instead of a supermarket. veganism is not a threat, or a challenge

to the wasteful practices of our capitalist society.

>

> -

> Andrew Barnes

>

> 12/6/2004 7:43:58 PM

> RE: Site: Freegan.info

>

> Nothing to do with vegans from what I can make out

>

Andrew Barnes

> Account Manager

>

> FDM Group

> Lanchester House - Trafalgar Place - Brighton - BN1 4FL

> Tel: +44 (0)870 060 3100 - Fax: +44 (0)870 060 3101 - Mob: +44

(0)7970 075 905

> andrew.barnes@f...

> www.fdmgroup.com

-

---------

>

> victoria leggett [tipples78]

> 06 December 2004 18:43

>

> Re: Site: Freegan.info

>

> hi

>

> only been vegan for about 6 weeks, dont mean to sound stupid

but what is a freegan?

>

> Peter <metalscarab@b...> wrote:

>

> Yep - but I was trying not to be too mean - but since you

mention it... there was also an apostrophe missing from " queens "

(sorry Peter!) :-)

>

> BB

>

> Peter

>

> -

>

> Jo bb

>

> Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:48 PM

>

> Re: Site: Freegan.info

>

> LOL - to be picky-picky - shouldn't it also be 'try to'

not 'try and'?

>

> Jo

>

> -

>

> Peter

>

> Saturday, December 04, 2004 7:06 PM

>

> Re: Site: Freegan.info

>

> Hi Peter

>

> Yer know... I reckon if you're going to say things like

that you should really put apostrophes in words like " don't " :-)

>

> BB

>

> Peter (aka grammar nazi :-))

>

> -

>

> peter hurd

>

> Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:07 PM

>

> Re: Site: Freegan.info

>

> Fraggle,

>

> This is your first warning, too many " yer " `s in one

sentance. DONT DO IT AGAIN!

>

> I know that you are American, but try and use the

English language ( notice I refrained from using the phrase " the

queens english " ? )

>

> Toodle Pip old boy,

>

> The Valley Vegan.......

>

> fraggle <EBbrewpunx@e...> wrote:

>

> someone still has to make, create, kill, the stuff

freegans use don't they?

>

> if you dumpster dive a package of mcdonalds

hamburgers, and think yer doing great..the animal still had to die

somewhere along the way, yes?

>

> yer not making any sort of stand against the cruelty

you see around you, yer just real good at re-use and recycle...

>

> rvijay07@m...

> Dec 2, 2004 11:39 AM

>

> Site: Freegan.info

>

> Someone I know said this site goes too far as it

says Freegans are better than Vegans. What is your opinion in this

regard ?

>

> http://freegan.info

>

> Thanks.

>

> Vijay

To send an email to -

>

December 8, 2004

id never heard of freegans till now. read some information on the net. do people really live like this?peter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

Boy not a lot of thought went into that article did it? Talk about taring us all with the same brush! Take it as it was meant to be.....someones opinion, and treat it as here-say or maybe heresy!

The Valley Vegan.......Taga Sickler <zurumato wrote:

This is what freegan.info says about us vegans, this holier than thou attitude, turns me off.

-anouk

Criticism of Veganism:

The vegan theory is essentially a boycott of any products that injure animals in their production. The vegan consumers are flexing their monetary muscle and "voting with their dollars" for the products that don't injure animals. These dollars are voting for coca-cola, big corporate grocery stores, greasy-fast food (we all know Taco Bell vegans), and worse. Shouldn't truly conscientious folks seek something more? I don't vote because no matter who I vote for, the government always wins and when you "vote with yur dollars", consumerism always wins, capitalism always wins. So.... make a list of allt he unethical practices that really piss you off and make a list of all the corporations and products you want to boycott. Veganism is a good first step, but is your only concern animals? I made this list and when I was done, I couldn't really justify buying anything, I couldn't get behind any aspect of the corporate death consumer machine so I decided to boycott

everything. I still spend money sometimes (I love going out for Thai food) but I try to be very conscientious about my consumption. Besides the concern that veganism as an ethic for eating stops short, it is also still a very high impact lifestyle. The packaging from vegan food doesn't take up less space in the landfill or consume less resources just cause the food is vegan. The whole produce and consume dynamic is still played out, but the setting is a fancy health food store instead of a supermarket. veganism is not a threat, or a challenge to the wasteful practices of our capitalist society.

-

Andrew Barnes

12/6/2004 7:43:58 PM

RE: Site: Freegan.info

Nothing to do with vegans from what I can make out

Andrew BarnesAccount Manager

FDM GroupLanchester House - Trafalgar Place - Brighton - BN1 4FLTel: +44 (0)870 060 3100 - Fax: +44 (0)870 060 3101 - Mob: +44 (0)7970 075 905andrew.barneswww.fdmgroup.com

victoria leggett [tipples78] 06 December 2004 18:43 Subject: Re: Site: Freegan.info

hi

only been vegan for about 6 weeks, dont mean to sound stupid but what is a freegan?Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Yep - but I was trying not to be too mean - but since you mention it... there was also an apostrophe missing from "queens" (sorry Peter!) :-)

BB

Peter

-

Jo bb

Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:48 PM

Re: Site: Freegan.info

LOL - to be picky-picky - shouldn't it also be 'try to' not 'try and'?Jo

-

Peter

Saturday, December 04, 2004 7:06 PM

Re: Site: Freegan.info

Hi Peter

Yer know... I reckon if you're going to say things like that you should really put apostrophes in words like "don't" :-)

BB

Peter (aka grammar nazi :-))

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:07 PM

Re: Site: Freegan.info

Fraggle,

This is your first warning, too many "yer"`s in one sentance. DONT DO IT AGAIN!

I know that you are American, but try and use the English language ( notice I refrained from using the phrase "the queens english"? )

Toodle Pip old boy,

The Valley Vegan.......fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

someone still has to make, create, kill, the stuff freegans use don't they?

if you dumpster dive a package of mcdonalds hamburgers, and think yer doing great..the animal still had to die somewhere along the way, yes?

yer not making any sort of stand against the cruelty you see around you, yer just real good at re-use and recycle... rvijay07 Dec 2, 2004 11:39 AM Site: Freegan.info Someone I know said this site goes too far as it says Freegans are better than Vegans. What is your opinion in this regard ?http://freegan.infoThanks.VijayTo send an email to -

December 8, 2004

i found this on the net and think it is relevant "never doubt that a small group of thoughtful commited citerzens can change the world; indeed it is the only thing that ever has"peter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

Lots of big words there, so excuse my ignorance, but I think that you can vote with your wallet, and also by letting the company that you are boycotting know why you are doing it by mail/e-mail etc.....I believe in that old idiom " from little acorns do mighty oaks grow". Maybe I am just a hopeless romantic, but I like to think that every one of us can and do make a difference.

Smiling in the face of adversity,

The Valley Vegan.......Hrvoje Nezic <hrvoje.nezic wrote:

I don't know if members of the list will agree with me, but I don't think

that "the vegan theory is essentially a boycott of any products that injure animals".

In my view, animal rights / liberation is the philosophy which is essential, and

vegetarianism / veganism is a lifestyle that is compatible with the philosophy.

Every individual can have only a very limited impact by refusing to use or eat

some products. As Daniel Quinn said, "People do what they think. To change

what they do change what they think". In this case, what they do is all kinds

of cruelties toward nonhuman animals. They justify these cruelties by

anthropocentric philosophies which are very old and established.

It is not enough to just stop eating and using animal products.

In my view it is much more important to educate people about what humans and

nonhuman animals are, and to ask what is it that justifies such cruel treatment

of nonhumans. Philosophers and thinkers like Peter Singer, Tom Regan,

Gary Francione, Joan Dunayer, Carol J. Adams, and many, many others

have been doing this for at least 30 years.

The goal of the animal rights movement is to change the way the society treats

nonhuman animals. The society must change the laws and abondon

all practices which exploit nonhuman animals. I think this cannot be

done just by boycots.

-

Taga Sickler

Tuesday, December 07, 2004 2:25 AM

RE: Site: Freegan.info

This is what freegan.info says about us vegans, this holier than thou attitude, turns me off.

-anouk

Criticism of Veganism:

The vegan theory is essentially a boycott of any products that injure animals in their production. The vegan consumers are flexing their monetary muscle and "voting with their dollars" for the products that don't injure animals. These dollars are voting for coca-cola, big corporate grocery stores, greasy-fast food (we all know Taco Bell vegans), and worse. Shouldn't truly conscientious folks seek something more? I don't vote because no matter who I vote for, the government always wins and when you "vote with yur dollars", consumerism always wins, capitalism always wins. So.... make a list of allt he unethical practices that really piss you off and make a list of all the corporations and products you want to boycott. Veganism is a good first step, but is your only concern animals? I made this list and when I was done, I couldn't really justify buying anything, I couldn't get behind any aspect of the corporate death consumer machine so I decided to boycott

everything. I still spend money sometimes (I love going out for Thai food) but I try to be very conscientious about my consumption. Besides the concern that veganism as an ethic for eating stops short, it is also still a very high impact lifestyle. The packaging from vegan food doesn't take up less space in the landfill or consume less resources just cause the food is vegan. The whole produce and consume dynamic is still played out, but the setting is a fancy health food store instead of a supermarket. veganism is not a threat, or a challenge to the wasteful practices of our capitalist society.

-

Andrew Barnes

12/6/2004 7:43:58 PM

RE: Site: Freegan.info

Nothing to do with vegans from what I can make out

Andrew BarnesAccount Manager

FDM GroupLanchester House - Trafalgar Place - Brighton - BN1 4FLTel: +44 (0)870 060 3100 - Fax: +44 (0)870 060 3101 - Mob: +44 (0)7970 075 905andrew.barneswww.fdmgroup.com

victoria leggett [tipples78] 06 December 2004 18:43 Subject: Re: Site: Freegan.info

hi

only been vegan for about 6 weeks, dont mean to sound stupid but what is a freegan?Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Yep - but I was trying not to be too mean - but since you mention it... there was also an apostrophe missing from "queens" (sorry Peter!) :-)

BB

Peter

-

Jo bb

Saturday, December 04, 2004 8:48 PM

Re: Site: Freegan.info

LOL - to be picky-picky - shouldn't it also be 'try to' not 'try and'?Jo

-

Peter

Saturday, December 04, 2004 7:06 PM

Re: Site: Freegan.info

Hi Peter

Yer know... I reckon if you're going to say things like that you should really put apostrophes in words like "don't" :-)

BB

Peter (aka grammar nazi :-))

-

peter hurd

Saturday, December 04, 2004 2:07 PM

Re: Site: Freegan.info

Fraggle,

This is your first warning, too many "yer"`s in one sentance. DONT DO IT AGAIN!

I know that you are American, but try and use the English language ( notice I refrained from using the phrase "the queens english"? )

Toodle Pip old boy,

The Valley Vegan.......fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

someone still has to make, create, kill, the stuff freegans use don't they?

if you dumpster dive a package of mcdonalds hamburgers, and think yer doing great..the animal still had to die somewhere along the way, yes?

yer not making any sort of stand against the cruelty you see around you, yer just real good at re-use and recycle... rvijay07 Dec 2, 2004 11:39 AM Site: Freegan.info Someone I know said this site goes too far as it says Freegans are better than Vegans. What is your opinion in this regard ?http://freegan.infoThanks.VijayTo send an email to -

December 8, 2004

thanks for that peter,

didnt know people actually lived like that!

Peter <metalscarab wrote:

Hi Victoria

> only been vegan for about 6 weeks, dont mean to sound stupid but what is a freegan?

I believe this is the article that started the discussion!:

http://freegan.info

BB

PeterTo send an email to -

Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Messenger

December 11, 2004

Hi Jo,

I think that story about dairies is as much to do with big business companies screwing the smaller producers than peoples dietry habits changing ( unfortunately)..still everyone should be aware of the habits of certain multinationals, unfortunately they are unlikely to advertise these.

The Valley Vegan.....Jo bb <Heartwork wrote:

I think boycotting goods is as good as campaigning - they both have their place. The reason boycotting helps is because companies like lots of money and if enough people boycott their goods the companies don't get as much money as they want. Apparently 40 dairies a week are closing in Britain (I heard that on the radio yesterday - but surely after a couple of weeks there wouldn't be any left!) because a lot fewer people are drinking cow milk.

Jo

-

Hrvoje Nezic

Tuesday, December 07, 2004 11:11 AM