eewwwww

[Guest guest]

If everyone has heard about this already, please forgive me. On TV they were

just talking about some scientists out in Nevada who inserted human cells into

sheep fettuses and now they have a herd of sheep running around who have organs

partly composed of human DNA. They also were talking about how " most of the

human cells seemed to have developed in the sheep brains. " The reason for this

atocity is that they want to figure out how to have animals grow human-like

organs so that these organs may be transplanted into sick humans. In particular

they want to grow human livers. This is not ready for public use yet, but it is

" on the way. "

 

I'm having nightmares.

CK Gadarian

[Guest guest]

, Cynthia Gadarian <cgadarian@a...>

wrote:

> If everyone has heard about this already, please forgive me. On TV

they were just talking about some scientists out in Nevada who

inserted human cells into sheep fettuses and now they have a herd of

sheep running around who have organs partly composed of human DNA.

They also were talking about how " most of the human cells seemed to

have developed in the sheep brains. " The reason for this atocity is

that they want to figure out how to have animals grow human-like

organs so that these organs may be transplanted into sick humans. In

particular they want to grow human livers. This is not ready for

public use yet, but it is " on the way. "

>

> I'm having nightmares.

> CK Gadarian

 

 

A lot of new things are scary. But down the road they maybe a good thing.

 

Here is how it goes with new ideas:

1. First it is rejected

2. It is violently opposed

3. It is accepted as being normal

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

Ummmm, I'm confused. We don't want scientists to genetically modify our food,

but it's okay to create halfhuman/half animal organisms to serve the needs of

people?

 

I'm STILL freaking out.

 

<Gently>

CK Gadarian

 

---- rvijay <rvijay07 wrote:

> , Cynthia Gadarian <cgadarian@a...>

> wrote:

> > If everyone has heard about this already, please forgive me. On TV

> they were just talking about some scientists out in Nevada who

> inserted human cells into sheep fettuses and now they have a herd of

> sheep running around who have organs partly composed of human DNA.

> They also were talking about how " most of the human cells seemed to

> have developed in the sheep brains. " The reason for this atocity is

> that they want to figure out how to have animals grow human-like

> organs so that these organs may be transplanted into sick humans. In

> particular they want to grow human livers. This is not ready for

> public use yet, but it is " on the way. "

> >

> > I'm having nightmares.

> > CK Gadarian

>

>

> A lot of new things are scary. But down the road they maybe a good thing.

>

> Here is how it goes with new ideas:

> 1. First it is rejected

> 2. It is violently opposed

> 3. It is accepted as being normal

>

> Vijay

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

, Cynthia Gadarian <cgadarian@a...>

wrote:

> Ummmm, I'm confused. We don't want scientists to genetically modify

our food, but it's okay to create halfhuman/half animal organisms to

serve the needs of people?

>

> I'm STILL freaking out.

>

> <Gently>

> CK Gadarian

>

 

 

People freaked out at the invention of the steam engine. They felt

that necks of travellers would be cut off at such high speeds.

 

Someone first imagined the Computer and the aeroplane. Thanks for all

that.

 

Take a look at:

howstuffworks.com

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

Hi Vijay

 

> Here is how it goes with new ideas:

> 1. First it is rejected

> 2. It is violently opposed

> 3. It is accepted as being normal

 

I really hope the idea of breeding animals with human DNA in order to kill

them and use them for transplants is *never* accepted as being normal...

 

Incidentally, your above comment is paraphrasing a quote from Alfred

Shoepenhouer (I may have spelt that wrong) - the original quote was " truth "

as opposed to ideas :-)

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Vijay

>

> > Here is how it goes with new ideas:

> > 1. First it is rejected

> > 2. It is violently opposed

> > 3. It is accepted as being normal

>

> I really hope the idea of breeding animals with human DNA in order

to kill

> them and use them for transplants is *never* accepted as being normal...

>

> Incidentally, your above comment is paraphrasing a quote from Alfred

> Shoepenhouer (I may have spelt that wrong) - the original quote was

" truth "

> as opposed to ideas :-)

>

> BB

> Peter

 

 

Hi Peter:

 

Scientists hopefully will also discover a way to make the donor animal

survive. Hopefully, this will be a win-win for all.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

> Scientists hopefully will also discover a way to make the donor animal> survive. Hopefully, this will be a win-win for all.

 

Or they'll have so much human DNA in them that they finally start thinking like we do and revolt. I predict - Animal Farm 2010!

 

Talisman

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Vijay

 

> Scientists hopefully will also discover a way to make the donor animal

> survive. Hopefully, this will be a win-win for all.

 

I have two issues here:

 

1. I doubt that scientists will give a damn about the animals

 

2. If the animal can't give consent for their organs to be used, then we

have no right to use them - regardless of whether the animal " survives " or

not.

 

Actually, I have a whole load more issues with the idea concerning nature,

genetic modification, playing " god " , environment, etc. etc.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

Dejavu

I said this exact same thing to someone this afternoon

 

Craig

 

> Scientists hopefully will also discover a way to make the donor animal> survive. Hopefully, this will be a win-win for all.

 

Or they'll have so much human DNA in them that they finally start thinking like we do and revolt. I predict - Animal Farm 2010!

 

Talisman

 

[Guest guest]

I have heard of similar things in the UK with them using pigs so they can

have transport organs. It is so horrible I can't really think of anything

to say.

 

Jo

 

 

 

> If everyone has heard about this already, please forgive me. On TV they

were just talking about some scientists out in Nevada who inserted human

cells into sheep fettuses and now they have a herd of sheep running around

who have organs partly composed of human DNA. They also were talking

about how " most of the human cells seemed to have developed in the sheep

brains. " The reason for this atocity is that they want to figure out how to

have animals grow human-like organs so that these organs may be transplanted

into sick humans. In particular they want to grow human livers. This is

not ready for public use yet, but it is " on the way. "

>

> I'm having nightmares.

> CK Gadarian

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think it should be done at all - after all if they invented a way

for the donor animal to survive, they could use other humans as donors.

These humans maybe could be family members/friends who would be willing to

be donors for their ill friend.

 

Jo

 

-

" rvijay " <rvijay07

 

Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:21 PM

Re: eewwwww

 

 

> , " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> > Hi Vijay

> >

> > > Here is how it goes with new ideas:

> > > 1. First it is rejected

> > > 2. It is violently opposed

> > > 3. It is accepted as being normal

> >

> > I really hope the idea of breeding animals with human DNA in order

> to kill

> > them and use them for transplants is *never* accepted as being normal...

> >

> > Incidentally, your above comment is paraphrasing a quote from Alfred

> > Shoepenhouer (I may have spelt that wrong) - the original quote was

> " truth "

> > as opposed to ideas :-)

> >

> > BB

> > Peter

>

>

> Hi Peter:

>

> Scientists hopefully will also discover a way to make the donor animal

> survive. Hopefully, this will be a win-win for all.

>

> Vijay

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> I don't think it should be done at all - after all if they invented

a way

> for the donor animal to survive, they could use other humans as donors.

> These humans maybe could be family members/friends who would be

willing to

> be donors for their ill friend.

>

> Jo

>

 

 

What about all the rich people who wish to live as long as possible,

need transplants but are without relatives ? Should they buy organs

from other humans then ? Organ trade was a big business in third world

Countries. It is very, very sad to even think about it. In this regard

finding other more humane alternatives is desirable.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

Hi Vijay

 

> What about all the rich people who wish to live as long as possible,

> need transplants but are without relatives ? Should they buy organs

> from other humans then ? Organ trade was a big business in third world

> Countries. It is very, very sad to even think about it. In this regard

> finding other more humane alternatives is desirable.

 

Since when did two wrongs make a right?

 

I don't see how breeding animals so they can be killed for use by humans is

acceptable to anyone who follows a vegan ethic, and I find it very

surprising that the suggestion would be supported by anyone on a vegan list!

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

and wot human alternative is that???! rvijay May 1, 2005 10:14 AM Re: eewwwww , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> I don't think it should be done at all - after all if they inventeda way> for the donor animal to survive, they could use other humans as donors.> These humans maybe could be family members/friends who would bewilling to> be donors for their ill friend.> > Jo> What about all the rich people who wish to live as long as possible,need transplants but are without relatives ? Should they buy organsfrom other humans then ? Organ trade was a big business in third worldCountries. It is very, very sad to even think about it. In this regardfinding other more humane alternatives is desirable.VijayTo send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Vijay

>

> > What about all the rich people who wish to live as long as possible,

> > need transplants but are without relatives ? Should they buy organs

> > from other humans then ? Organ trade was a big business in third world

> > Countries. It is very, very sad to even think about it. In this regard

> > finding other more humane alternatives is desirable.

>

> Since when did two wrongs make a right?

>

> I don't see how breeding animals so they can be killed for use by

humans is

> acceptable to anyone who follows a vegan ethic, and I find it very

> surprising that the suggestion would be supported by anyone on a

vegan list!

>

> Peter

 

 

Hi Peter:

 

Experiments are conducted on humans too. They are called clinical

trials I believe.

 

In ancient days sometimes even human soldiers volunteered for medical

experiments.

 

I also see this as short pain longterm gain. In the pursuit of

Veterinary medicine also sometimes some animals maybe hurt. However,

results of this study may benefit a lot more animals.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

, " rvijay " <rvijay07@m...> wrote:

> , " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

 

> >

> > I don't see how breeding animals so they can be killed for use by

> humans is

> > acceptable to anyone who follows a vegan ethic, and I find it very

> > surprising that the suggestion would be supported by anyone on a

> vegan list!

> >

> > Peter

>

>

 

Here is a good example. Treatment of Kidney stones by Ultrasound. We

all know that this is beneficial now. But the first time it was tried

on a human, there was always the chance of side effects etc., but he

took the risk. In medicine there are new discoveries all the time.

There are so many diseases yet to treat and along with new ideas there

is risk involved. Infact before every surgery, even for known

procedures, Doctors discuss the risk involved.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

, " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

> Hi Vijay

>

> > What about all the rich people who wish to live as long as possible,

> > need transplants but are without relatives ? Should they buy organs

> > from other humans then ? Organ trade was a big business in third world

> > Countries. It is very, very sad to even think about it. In this regard

> > finding other more humane alternatives is desirable.

>

> Since when did two wrongs make a right?

>

> I don't see how breeding animals so they can be killed for use by

humans is

> acceptable to anyone who follows a vegan ethic, and I find it very

> surprising that the suggestion would be supported by anyone on a

vegan list!

>

> Peter

 

 

Another example. Recently some astronauts took 50 snails in space for

experiments. Before fish/chicken etc., were taken. Some studies were

conducted. Long term effects of such studies may assist several other

animals in general.

 

I am still Vegan and very much against dissection of animals for study

as much as possible. However, in some instances considering long term

gains minor exceptions are important.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

I thought vegans were against using animals for their own ends.

 

Jo

 

 

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > I don't think it should be done at all - after all if they invented

> a way

> > for the donor animal to survive, they could use other humans as donors.

> > These humans maybe could be family members/friends who would be

> willing to

> > be donors for their ill friend.

> >

> > Jo

> >

>

>

> What about all the rich people who wish to live as long as possible,

> need transplants but are without relatives ? Should they buy organs

> from other humans then ? Organ trade was a big business in third world

> Countries. It is very, very sad to even think about it. In this regard

> finding other more humane alternatives is desirable.

>

> Vijay

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

but Vijay I think you were suggesting that using animals for donor organs

for humans was an acceptable idea.

 

Jo

-

" rvijay " <rvijay07

 

Sunday, May 01, 2005 9:11 PM

Re: eewwwww

 

 

> , " rvijay " <rvijay07@m...> wrote:

> > , " Peter " <metalscarab@c...> wrote:

>

> > >

> > > I don't see how breeding animals so they can be killed for use by

> > humans is

> > > acceptable to anyone who follows a vegan ethic, and I find it very

> > > surprising that the suggestion would be supported by anyone on a

> > vegan list!

> > >

> > > Peter

> >

> >

>

> Here is a good example. Treatment of Kidney stones by Ultrasound. We

> all know that this is beneficial now. But the first time it was tried

> on a human, there was always the chance of side effects etc., but he

> took the risk. In medicine there are new discoveries all the time.

> There are so many diseases yet to treat and along with new ideas there

> is risk involved. Infact before every surgery, even for known

> procedures, Doctors discuss the risk involved.

>

> Vijay

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Vijay

 

> Experiments are conducted on humans too. They are called clinical

> trials I believe.

 

Clinical trials are experiments conducted on humans, where the humans have

given their consent. Experiments conducted on humans without consent (i.e.

the equivalent of animal experimentation) was known as " The Final Solution " .

You might want to look up Mengele on the internet to see what I'm talking

about.

 

Peter

[Guest guest]

Vijay

 

> I am still Vegan and very much against dissection of animals for study

> as much as possible. However, in some instances considering long term

> gains minor exceptions are important.

 

Long term " gains " of vivisection are non existant.

 

Long term " losses " :

 

1. Thousands of lives were lost to operable heart disease because the heart

bypass operation was considered unworkable for 30 years because it doesn't

work on dogs.

 

2. Around 75% of drugs considered " safe " after animal experimentation are

withdrawn from sale within 5 years because of harmful effects on humans.

 

3. DDT

 

4. 6 billion animals every year suffer torture and death in a business which

has no scientific basis, and causes no end of harm to humans.

 

I'm sure I could write a whole book on the subject, but since plenty of

other people have done so (and done so very well), I won't go any further

here - but please do some reading on the subject - I think you'll be

shocked.

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> I thought vegans were against using animals for their own ends.

>

> Jo

>

 

 

It is impossible for anyone to be a 100% Vegan. In society still there

is so much use of animal products. In some cases if the study benefits

both humans and animals, then personally I think it is OK. The amount

of animals who may be harmed by such a study is going to be very

small. On the other hand, long term both animals and man will benefit.

 

However, I am very much against routine testing of drugs on mice etc.,

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

There is also an associated concern. Presently they are trying to grow

human organs in animals. Down the road they may try to grow

human/animal organs/parts in plants and vice versa. As Peter said man

is playing God. But again Science can be considered to be a gift of

God to man. So it is going to be interesting to observe how this whole

thing turns out.

 

Vijay

[Guest guest]

I disagree with you Vijay, and am surprised by what you say.

 

Jo

 

-

" rvijay " <rvijay07

 

Sunday, May 01, 2005 11:25 PM

Re: eewwwww

 

 

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > I thought vegans were against using animals for their own ends.

> >

> > Jo

> >

>

>

> It is impossible for anyone to be a 100% Vegan. In society still there

> is so much use of animal products. In some cases if the study benefits

> both humans and animals, then personally I think it is OK. The amount

> of animals who may be harmed by such a study is going to be very

> small. On the other hand, long term both animals and man will benefit.

>

> However, I am very much against routine testing of drugs on mice etc.,

>

> Vijay

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

vijay,

 

so, ehh, if you were one of those small percentage of animals, that would be sacrificed for the sake of humans, how would you feel?

 

my concept is that every living thing, wants to live, no matter how small or little significance "humans" give them.

 

the problem with experimenting on animals is that, rare is the scientist with compassion, who thinks that these animals that they are injecting, spraying, cutting, electrocuting, operating etc, on have any rights to their own life.

 

Where in all this, are the rights of that animal? Because we can't technically *ASK* an animal if they would like to give up their life for science or would like to be experimented on, then we are then violating their own right to live .

 

Just because we can do something, doesn't mean it's right. If animals could talk to us I bet most of them would say; (animal talking)

 

"What?? you mean you want me to sit in a cage, while you do stuff to me that hurts, makes me sick and/or will kill me for your benefit??? I don't want to grow an ear on my back, just cause yours got burnt in a fire. I like myself just the way I am thank you.

 

you who destroyed my habitat, even thought I was there first, just so you could live in a gated community with a perfect monsanto lawn and a nice new swimming pool, but you took away my stream??

 

how much more selfish can you get?? you must be crazy. NO THANKS, now just leave me alone and just let me be. that is all I ask.

Can't you grow up and just share this earth??

I have nothing to do with your iIllnesses and you rarely care about me, you hunt me, call me a pest and then want me to cure your illnesses??

 

how selfish of you.

 

 

 

 

 

-

rvijay

 

5/1/2005 6:25:32 PM

Re: eewwwww

, "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> I thought vegans were against using animals for their own ends.> > Jo> It is impossible for anyone to be a 100% Vegan. In society still thereis so much use of animal products. In some cases if the study benefitsboth humans and animals, then personally I think it is OK. The amountof animals who may be harmed by such a study is going to be verysmall. On the other hand, long term both animals and man will benefit.However, I am very much against routine testing of drugs on mice etc.,VijayTo send an email to -