Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 , " anouk sickler " <zurumato@e...> wrote: > vijay, > > so, ehh, if you were one of those small percentage of animals, that would be sacrificed for the sake of humans, how would you feel? > > my concept is that every living thing, wants to live, no matter how small or little significance " humans " give them. > > the problem with experimenting on animals is that, rare is the scientist with compassion, who thinks that these animals that they are injecting, spraying, cutting, electrocuting, operating etc, on have any rights to their own life. > > Where in all this, are the rights of that animal? Because we can't technically *ASK* an animal if they would like to give up their life for science or would like to be experimented on, then we are then violating their own right to live . > > Just because we can do something, doesn't mean it's right. If animals could talk to us I bet most of them would say; (animal talking) > > " What?? you mean you want me to sit in a cage, while you do stuff to me that hurts, makes me sick and/or will kill me for your benefit??? I don't want to grow an ear on my back, just cause yours got burnt in a fire. I like myself just the way I am thank you. > > you who destroyed my habitat, even thought I was there first, just so you could live in a gated community with a perfect monsanto lawn and a nice new swimming pool, but you took away my stream?? > > how much more selfish can you get?? you must be crazy. NO THANKS, now just leave me alone and just let me be. that is all I ask. > Can't you grow up and just share this earth?? > I have nothing to do with your iIllnesses and you rarely care about me, you hunt me, call me a pest and then want me to cure your illnesses?? > > how selfish of you. > This is a great post. Consent of the animals being tested is not there and that is a very big issue I agree. So, this is equivalent to murder. Would you say then that it is not Vegan to serve in the army or to work as a Vet ? Vet treatment is based on past research. Atleast animal medicine again must be treated on animals. But again I see that the consent of the animals being tested is not certain. As per my Religion meat/harming of animals is forbidden. So, I would assume then that in regards to animal testing also the same would apply. It is better to die than to kill the life of several other animals just for the wish of some of us can live a few more years longer. I still hope this debate continues as sooner or later with all the developments we will be facing all these issues. On a different note. Meat eating in Islamic Countries is very high. One of my friends had a chance to visit Pakistan and remarked about this. He is a meat eater by the way. Vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Not true, Peter. Frequently folks in human trials don't have a clue. Take for example the testing of Hep A and Hep B vaccines. Hep B was tested, without knowledge or consent, on the children of Alaskan Natives. The result, 36% of the guinea pigs are HIV positive and a large percent have neurological disorders. " Oops, " said the pharmacuetical company. The blood was tainted. Hep A was tested, without knowledge or consent, on the children of 4 Corners. Soldiers have been used througout the ages as unnotified, without consent guinea pigs for a variety of research projects. The most notorious was the injection of syphyllis in African American men. Lynda - Peter <metalscarab Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:10 PM Re: Re: eewwwww > Vijay > > > Experiments are conducted on humans too. They are called clinical > > trials I believe. > > Clinical trials are experiments conducted on humans, where the humans have > given their consent. Experiments conducted on humans without consent (i.e. > the equivalent of animal experimentation) was known as " The Final Solution " . > You might want to look up Mengele on the internet to see what I'm talking > about. > > Peter > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 O.K., I lost you on 3 and 4. Explain please. And please tell me you haven't been reading Crichton <g> Lynda - Peter <metalscarab Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:14 PM Re: Re: eewwwww > Vijay > > > I am still Vegan and very much against dissection of animals for study > > as much as possible. However, in some instances considering long term > > gains minor exceptions are important. > > Long term " gains " of vivisection are non existant. > > Long term " losses " : > > 1. Thousands of lives were lost to operable heart disease because the heart > bypass operation was considered unworkable for 30 years because it doesn't > work on dogs. > > 2. Around 75% of drugs considered " safe " after animal experimentation are > withdrawn from sale within 5 years because of harmful effects on humans. > > 3. DDT > > 4. 6 billion animals every year suffer torture and death in a business which > has no scientific basis, and causes no end of harm to humans. > > I'm sure I could write a whole book on the subject, but since plenty of > other people have done so (and done so very well), I won't go any further > here - but please do some reading on the subject - I think you'll be > shocked. > > BB > Peter > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 We know that this happens quite frequently, but I think it is obvious that anyone in favour of human experiments on this list would be in favour of them on only a voluntary basis - so I don't think there is an argument here. Jo > Not true, Peter. Frequently folks in human trials don't have a clue. Take > for example the testing of Hep A and Hep B vaccines. Hep B was tested, > without knowledge or consent, on the children of Alaskan Natives. The > result, 36% of the guinea pigs are HIV positive and a large percent have > neurological disorders. " Oops, " said the pharmacuetical company. The blood > was tainted. > > Hep A was tested, without knowledge or consent, on the children of 4 > Corners. > > Soldiers have been used througout the ages as unnotified, without consent > guinea pigs for a variety of research projects. The most notorious was the > injection of syphyllis in African American men. > > Lynda > - > Peter <metalscarab > > Sunday, May 01, 2005 3:10 PM > Re: Re: eewwwww > > > > Vijay > > > > > Experiments are conducted on humans too. They are called clinical > > > trials I believe. > > > > Clinical trials are experiments conducted on humans, where the humans have > > given their consent. Experiments conducted on humans without consent (i.e. > > the equivalent of animal experimentation) was known as " The Final > Solution " . > > You might want to look up Mengele on the internet to see what I'm talking > > about. > > > > Peter > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 I wrote in response to " > Clinical trials are experiments conducted on humans, WHERE THE HUMANS HAVE GIVEN THEIR CONSENT. " Clinical trials are frequently done by government agencies, not just the pharmacy/scientist run double blind clinical trials. when the government gets involved and their agencies run the studies there is usual no notice or consent. In the U.S. that is frequently the military or IHS. The U.S. has also been known to provide a " vaccine " to 3rd World countries which were, infact, not the vaccine in question but rather a new experimental drug such as long term birth control and a few others. There is no notification, there is no consent. Lynda - Jo Cwazy <heartwork Tuesday, May 03, 2005 10:22 AM Re: Re: eewwwww > We know that this happens quite frequently, but I think it is obvious that > anyone in favour of human experiments on this list would be in favour of > them on only a voluntary basis - so I don't think there is an argument here. > > Jo > > > Not true, Peter. Frequently folks in human trials don't have a clue. > Take > > for example the testing of Hep A and Hep B vaccines. Hep B was tested, > > without knowledge or consent, on the children of Alaskan Natives. The > > result, 36% of the guinea pigs are HIV positive and a large percent have > > neurological disorders. " Oops, " said the pharmacuetical company. The > blood > > was tainted. > > > > Hep A was tested, without knowledge or consent, on the children of 4 > > Corners. > > > > Soldiers have been used througout the ages as unnotified, without consent > > guinea pigs for a variety of research projects. The most notorious was > the > > injection of syphyllis in African American men. > > > > Lynda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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