Smoking

August 22, 2002

Surely part of the place should be non smoking.? I don't blame her for making a fuss Her only alternative it seems is not to eat in the cafe

.. Where are the equal rights ?

She should have the option of finding somewhere to eat with clean air.

Lots of none smokers don't like it but are too scared /embarrassed to make a fuss

Heartwork [Heartwork] 21 August 2002 20:25 Subject: Smoking

One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.

Jo

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August 22, 2002

I don't think there are any non-smoking places on campus. Even if they were all made non-smoking she would still find something else to complain about - like people talking too loudly etc.

Jo

I completely agree with your friend, it is the people like her who complain who bring about change in the status quo. Too many non-smokers are far too polite about tolerating smokers and it does no good, the bullying smokers still get to inflict their nasty habit on us. Eating places should all be smoke-free anyway as should most pubs as most people are non-smokers and no-one should have to be around it when they are eating.

Aren't there any of these places that are completely non-smoking on campus? Maybe she needs to lobby for some provision for people who want a completely smoke-free place.

It shouldn't be hard to provide since most people are non-smokers. I think it is very wrong if all the bars and cafes allow smoking on your campus.

Lesley

Heartwork [Heartwork]21 August 2002 20:25 Subject: Smoking

One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.

Jo

It actually affects me in such a way that I find it very hard to remain calm, so I suppose it is somewhere in between, not that I punch them or anything outrageous but I am not always over-polite either. I get quite extreme effects from second hand smoke almost immediately including not being able to breathe properly from mucus in my lungs, splitting headache comes soon after that, and I feel disorientated and it can take days to clear some of the effects and I am up at night coughing to clear my chest sometimes after exposure to smoke the day before. I was like this all the time as a child and only got about three hours sleep most nights, I was constantly clearing my chest and throat and coughing. Got bullied at school for it. So after all I have gone through I get very frightened by anyone smoking near me, I cross the road, even with my kids if I see someone smoking and walking towards us on the same side of the road, I will do almost anything to avoid it.

Actually someone came to our neighbour's door smoking and our front doors are indoors right next to each other as we are in a small block of flats, and it happened that I was just around at the time, the smoke hit me as soon as I opened my door. The man had gone for a moment and my neighbour was there and I said I could smell someone had just been smoking, she said nothing, but when the man came back he was still smoking which proved I had not imagined it. I told him that I did not like smoke in the communal area of the flats, and it makes me ill, to my surprise he was actually apologetic and put it out but it was my neighbour who said it could surely not be affecting me and she was offended that I complained, so I told her in no uncertain terms that it did make me ill and I had every right to speak up. She is a non-smoker herself so she should have not stood up for him, I live there he does not so my rights should be mroe important there, anyway I don't suppose she will try standing up for a smoker against me again, now she knows how I feel, but it surprised me that she was so unaware that it really makes some people ill. I was angry that the neighbour obviously did not respect my right to not be bombarded with it right at my front door, if someone comes to my door smoking and I see them through the spy-hole I would not open the door to them.

Lesley

nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]21 August 2002 13:46 Subject: Re: milk sucksssssssssLesley,Quick question. When someone is smoking around you and it is bothering you, do u ask them nicely to put it out explaining that you do not like it and how it affects you. Er do you go fer their throats, er somewhere in-between.If someone asked me nicely or somewhere in between I would comply, apologize and thank them fer letting me know. If they went fer me throat, tho I would still put it out, I would have a nice word or two afterwards on how all they had to do was ask.just me....nikki , "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> > They impose their smoke on non-smokers though, when it affects me I do feel> I have the right to tell them to stop it around me. If they could put big> bowls like a spaceman's helmet over their heads and kept their smoke to> themselves in there I would just think it was silly and bad for them but it> would not affect me or other non-smokers and I would not get so upset about> it. It would be their funeral and no-one else's.> > My dad who quit many years ago says if we were meant to smoke we would have> chimneys on our heads. I agree with him that it smoking is a very strange> and perverse idea.> > Lesley> > > Heartwork [Heartwork@b...]> 20 August 2002 18:24> > Re: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > Lesley> > I think the point is that we cannot tell other people what to do. We have> to decide for ourselves what parts of life we join in with and which parts> we separate ourselves from. We cannot impose our will on everyone else.> > Jo> > -> Lesley Dove> > Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM> RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > > Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches> put people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I> am considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by> cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside> the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but experience> has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone> I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly> non-smoking affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have> people smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> > Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan> and will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not> make what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to> improved health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it> made no difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace> of mind.> My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live> away from second hand smoke.> > Lesley> > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> 19 August 2002 13:29> > Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > > > BUT I will> > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco> campaigning> > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that> dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> > Their veganism will not protect them> > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> >> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but> for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of> course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that> anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but> some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do> with it.> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave> now?> > Cathy> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a> while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never> intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when> I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> > > > > > > > >> > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart> > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus?> > Beer?> >> >> > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones.> >> > MILK SUCKS...> > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds> and> > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms.> > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies,> it> > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a> day—> > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk> > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate> cows> > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause> > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they> sometimes> > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse> of> > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their> own> > babies -- not humans.> >> >> > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14> to17> > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn> > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers,> or> > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs> (an> > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in> tiny> > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their> lives,> > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers.> >> >> > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans,> expend> > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It> > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through> cows> > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of> > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous> source> > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every> > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets,> > sewers, or treatment plants.> >> > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the> > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the> > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has> > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams.> In> > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much> excrement> > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200> cows> > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of> > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on> animal> > waste.> >> >> >> > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or> complex> > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol.> They> > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently> > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy> > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart> > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> >> > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child> > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it> can> > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the> > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease,> America's> > number one cause of death.> >> > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent> it,> > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body.> > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of> > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually> > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page.> >> >> >> > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average> American> > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which> is 40> > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an> > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of> actual> > American eating habits.> >> > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk,> > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream> cheese.> > All are widely available at health food stores and many> supermarkets.> > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet.> >> >> >> > In The News> >> > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The> > Vancouver Sun)> >> > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)> >> > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life.> It> > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop> drinking> > it today."> > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University> >> >> >> > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian> Starter> > PackVegNow.com> >> >> >> >> >

August 22, 2002

It would be fun.

Jo

> nikki, if you go to a concert with jo, take me with you!!!! she lives in

the UK...i'll hide in yer luggage.....

> i'll meet you at the airport on the way home

>

> fraggle

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August 22, 2002

I think she would have a good case to petition for at least SOME smoke-free places on campus, would you at least support her in that? They seem very backward where you are for the 21st century not to have some smoke-free places. She could have a gas mask wearing protest! ASH might have a local group who would support her (I really ought to join ASH myself).

I don't know her so I cannot comment on whether she is a generally complaining type, but I know I don't complain about everything, even though it might come across that way. The second hand smoke is dangerous for her and you even if it doesn't make her or you feel ill at the time, it might make her feel ill though, it does for a lot of people, I have come across a few other people like me who get ill from it. If you choose to go to metal concerts that is your choice that you will tolerate smoke, you obviously don't mind it, but people should be most definitely protected from smoke in the workplace, it's a basic right, and if there are only smoky places to go for lunchtime that is not reasonable at all, as it takes away choices from non-smokers.

Lesley

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 August 2002 16:07 Subject: Re: Smoking

I don't think there are any non-smoking places on campus. Even if they were all made non-smoking she would still find something else to complain about - like people talking too loudly etc.

Jo

I completely agree with your friend, it is the people like her who complain who bring about change in the status quo. Too many non-smokers are far too polite about tolerating smokers and it does no good, the bullying smokers still get to inflict their nasty habit on us. Eating places should all be smoke-free anyway as should most pubs as most people are non-smokers and no-one should have to be around it when they are eating.

Aren't there any of these places that are completely non-smoking on campus? Maybe she needs to lobby for some provision for people who want a completely smoke-free place.

It shouldn't be hard to provide since most people are non-smokers. I think it is very wrong if all the bars and cafes allow smoking on your campus.

Lesley

Heartwork [Heartwork]21 August 2002 20:25 Subject: Smoking

One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.

Jo

It actually affects me in such a way that I find it very hard to remain calm, so I suppose it is somewhere in between, not that I punch them or anything outrageous but I am not always over-polite either. I get quite extreme effects from second hand smoke almost immediately including not being able to breathe properly from mucus in my lungs, splitting headache comes soon after that, and I feel disorientated and it can take days to clear some of the effects and I am up at night coughing to clear my chest sometimes after exposure to smoke the day before. I was like this all the time as a child and only got about three hours sleep most nights, I was constantly clearing my chest and throat and coughing. Got bullied at school for it. So after all I have gone through I get very frightened by anyone smoking near me, I cross the road, even with my kids if I see someone smoking and walking towards us on the same side of the road, I will do almost anything to avoid it.

Actually someone came to our neighbour's door smoking and our front doors are indoors right next to each other as we are in a small block of flats, and it happened that I was just around at the time, the smoke hit me as soon as I opened my door. The man had gone for a moment and my neighbour was there and I said I could smell someone had just been smoking, she said nothing, but when the man came back he was still smoking which proved I had not imagined it. I told him that I did not like smoke in the communal area of the flats, and it makes me ill, to my surprise he was actually apologetic and put it out but it was my neighbour who said it could surely not be affecting me and she was offended that I complained, so I told her in no uncertain terms that it did make me ill and I had every right to speak up. She is a non-smoker herself so she should have not stood up for him, I live there he does not so my rights should be mroe important there, anyway I don't suppose she will try standing up for a smoker against me again, now she knows how I feel, but it surprised me that she was so unaware that it really makes some people ill. I was angry that the neighbour obviously did not respect my right to not be bombarded with it right at my front door, if someone comes to my door smoking and I see them through the spy-hole I would not open the door to them.

Lesley

nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]21 August 2002 13:46 Subject: Re: milk sucksssssssssLesley,Quick question. When someone is smoking around you and it is bothering you, do u ask them nicely to put it out explaining that you do not like it and how it affects you. Er do you go fer their throats, er somewhere in-between.If someone asked me nicely or somewhere in between I would comply, apologize and thank them fer letting me know. If they went fer me throat, tho I would still put it out, I would have a nice word or two afterwards on how all they had to do was ask.just me....nikki , "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> > They impose their smoke on non-smokers though, when it affects me I do feel> I have the right to tell them to stop it around me. If they could put big> bowls like a spaceman's helmet over their heads and kept their smoke to> themselves in there I would just think it was silly and bad for them but it> would not affect me or other non-smokers and I would not get so upset about> it. It would be their funeral and no-one else's.> > My dad who quit many years ago says if we were meant to smoke we would have> chimneys on our heads. I agree with him that it smoking is a very strange> and perverse idea.> > Lesley> > > Heartwork [Heartwork@b...]> 20 August 2002 18:24> > Re: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > Lesley> > I think the point is that we cannot tell other people what to do. We have> to decide for ourselves what parts of life we join in with and which parts> we separate ourselves from. We cannot impose our will on everyone else.> > Jo> > -> Lesley Dove> > Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM> RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > > Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches> put people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I> am considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by> cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside> the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but experience> has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone> I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly> non-smoking affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have> people smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> > Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan> and will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not> make what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to> improved health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it> made no difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace> of mind.> My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live> away from second hand smoke.> > Lesley> > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> 19 August 2002 13:29> > Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > > > BUT I will> > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco> campaigning> > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that> dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> > Their veganism will not protect them> > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> >> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but> for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of> course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that> anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but> some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do> with it.> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave> now?> > Cathy> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a> while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never> intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when> I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> > > > > > > > >> > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart> > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus?> > Beer?> >> >> > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones.> >> > MILK SUCKS...> > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds> and> > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms.> > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies,> it> > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a> day—> > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk> > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate> cows> > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause> > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they> sometimes> > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse> of> > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their> own> > babies -- not humans.> >> >> > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14> to17> > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn> > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers,> or> > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs> (an> > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in> tiny> > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their> lives,> > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers.> >> >> > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans,> expend> > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It> > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through> cows> > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of> > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous> source> > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every> > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets,> > sewers, or treatment plants.> >> > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the> > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the> > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has> > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams.> In> > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much> excrement> > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200> cows> > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of> > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on> animal> > waste.> >> >> >> > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or> complex> > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol.> They> > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently> > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy> > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart> > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> >> > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child> > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it> can> > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the> > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease,> America's> > number one cause of death.> >> > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent> it,> > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body.> > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of> > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually> > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page.> >> >> >> > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average> American> > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which> is 40> > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an> > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of> actual> > American eating habits.> >> > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk,> > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream> cheese.> > All are widely available at health food stores and many> supermarkets.> > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet.> >> >> >> > In The News> >> > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The> > Vancouver Sun)> >> > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)> >> > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life.> It> > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop> drinking> > it today."> > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University> >> >> >> > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian> Starter> > PackVegNow.com> >> >> >> >> >

August 22, 2002

Hi Lesley

Yes I would support her. We seem to be taking steps backwards here though. We did have a smoke-free veggie bar, but last year they incorporated it into the normal cafe area. I do agree about firms providing smoke-free lunch places. I work for AQA which is situated in the campus, not actually part of the university, and they do provide a smok-free coffee-room for people to take their packed lunches. Unfortunately the university doesn't do the same with it's catering areas.

Jo

I think she would have a good case to petition for at least SOME smoke-free places on campus, would you at least support her in that? They seem very backward where you are for the 21st century not to have some smoke-free places. She could have a gas mask wearing protest! ASH might have a local group who would support her (I really ought to join ASH myself).

I don't know her so I cannot comment on whether she is a generally complaining type, but I know I don't complain about everything, even though it might come across that way. The second hand smoke is dangerous for her and you even if it doesn't make her or you feel ill at the time, it might make her feel ill though, it does for a lot of people, I have come across a few other people like me who get ill from it. If you choose to go to metal concerts that is your choice that you will tolerate smoke, you obviously don't mind it, but people should be most definitely protected from smoke in the workplace, it's a basic right, and if there are only smoky places to go for lunchtime that is not reasonable at all, as it takes away choices from non-smokers.

Lesley

Heartwork [Heartwork]22 August 2002 16:07 Subject: Re: Smoking

I don't think there are any non-smoking places on campus. Even if they were all made non-smoking she would still find something else to complain about - like people talking too loudly etc.

Jo

I completely agree with your friend, it is the people like her who complain who bring about change in the status quo. Too many non-smokers are far too polite about tolerating smokers and it does no good, the bullying smokers still get to inflict their nasty habit on us. Eating places should all be smoke-free anyway as should most pubs as most people are non-smokers and no-one should have to be around it when they are eating.

Aren't there any of these places that are completely non-smoking on campus? Maybe she needs to lobby for some provision for people who want a completely smoke-free place.

It shouldn't be hard to provide since most people are non-smokers. I think it is very wrong if all the bars and cafes allow smoking on your campus.

Lesley

Heartwork [Heartwork]21 August 2002 20:25 Subject: Smoking

One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.

Jo

It actually affects me in such a way that I find it very hard to remain calm, so I suppose it is somewhere in between, not that I punch them or anything outrageous but I am not always over-polite either. I get quite extreme effects from second hand smoke almost immediately including not being able to breathe properly from mucus in my lungs, splitting headache comes soon after that, and I feel disorientated and it can take days to clear some of the effects and I am up at night coughing to clear my chest sometimes after exposure to smoke the day before. I was like this all the time as a child and only got about three hours sleep most nights, I was constantly clearing my chest and throat and coughing. Got bullied at school for it. So after all I have gone through I get very frightened by anyone smoking near me, I cross the road, even with my kids if I see someone smoking and walking towards us on the same side of the road, I will do almost anything to avoid it.

Actually someone came to our neighbour's door smoking and our front doors are indoors right next to each other as we are in a small block of flats, and it happened that I was just around at the time, the smoke hit me as soon as I opened my door. The man had gone for a moment and my neighbour was there and I said I could smell someone had just been smoking, she said nothing, but when the man came back he was still smoking which proved I had not imagined it. I told him that I did not like smoke in the communal area of the flats, and it makes me ill, to my surprise he was actually apologetic and put it out but it was my neighbour who said it could surely not be affecting me and she was offended that I complained, so I told her in no uncertain terms that it did make me ill and I had every right to speak up. She is a non-smoker herself so she should have not stood up for him, I live there he does not so my rights should be mroe important there, anyway I don't suppose she will try standing up for a smoker against me again, now she knows how I feel, but it surprised me that she was so unaware that it really makes some people ill. I was angry that the neighbour obviously did not respect my right to not be bombarded with it right at my front door, if someone comes to my door smoking and I see them through the spy-hole I would not open the door to them.

Lesley

nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]21 August 2002 13:46 Subject: Re: milk sucksssssssssLesley,Quick question. When someone is smoking around you and it is bothering you, do u ask them nicely to put it out explaining that you do not like it and how it affects you. Er do you go fer their throats, er somewhere in-between.If someone asked me nicely or somewhere in between I would comply, apologize and thank them fer letting me know. If they went fer me throat, tho I would still put it out, I would have a nice word or two afterwards on how all they had to do was ask.just me....nikki , "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> > They impose their smoke on non-smokers though, when it affects me I do feel> I have the right to tell them to stop it around me. If they could put big> bowls like a spaceman's helmet over their heads and kept their smoke to> themselves in there I would just think it was silly and bad for them but it> would not affect me or other non-smokers and I would not get so upset about> it. It would be their funeral and no-one else's.> > My dad who quit many years ago says if we were meant to smoke we would have> chimneys on our heads. I agree with him that it smoking is a very strange> and perverse idea.> > Lesley> > > Heartwork [Heartwork@b...]> 20 August 2002 18:24> > Re: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > Lesley> > I think the point is that we cannot tell other people what to do. We have> to decide for ourselves what parts of life we join in with and which parts> we separate ourselves from. We cannot impose our will on everyone else.> > Jo> > -> Lesley Dove> > Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM> RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > > Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos and marches> put people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so ill, that I> am considering not going on a march again if I have to be surrounded by> cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and after outside> the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but experience> has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use to anyone> I believe demos and protests for the animals should be strictly> non-smoking affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the public to have> people smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> > Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an ethical vegan> and will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I will not> make what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy leading to> improved health and less mucus for instance, because in my experience it> made no difference to my health except mentally to my conscience and peace> of mind.> My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was able to live> away from second hand smoke.> > Lesley> > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> 19 August 2002 13:29> > Re: milk sucksssssssss> > > > > BUT I will> > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining anti-tobacco> campaigning> > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm sure that> dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> > Their veganism will not protect them> > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> >> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their health, but> for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some British of> course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't think that> anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for them - but> some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or nothing to do> with it.> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum? Shall I leave> now?> > Cathy> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking for a> while to see how everyone is and what's going on here - never> intended to post because I spend far too much time at the lists when> I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> > > > > > > > >> > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's Disease? Heart> > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits? Gas? Mucus?> > Beer?> >> >> > Click here for the truth about dairy products and strong bones.> >> > MILK SUCKS...> > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in huge sheds> and> > treated like milk machines have replaced most small family farms.> > With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies,> it> > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a> day—> > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To keep milk> > production as high as possible, farmers artificially inseminate> cows> > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking schedules cause> > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that they> sometimes> > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections and overuse> of> > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to feed their> own> > babies -- not humans.> >> >> > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry, endure 14> to17> > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they can't even turn> > around. Female calves often replace their old, worn-out mothers,> or> > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in their stomachs> (an> > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often kept in> tiny> > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months of their> lives,> > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their mothers.> >> >> > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like humans,> expend> > the majority of their food intake simply leading their lives. It> > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs cycled through> cows> > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is milk a waste of> > energy and water, the production of milk is also a disastrous> source> > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of waste every> > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no toilets,> > sewers, or treatment plants.> >> > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is destroying the> > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-fifth of the> > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy farms has> > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers, and streams.> In> > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as much> excrement> > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish farm of 200> cows> > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a community of> > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate report on> animal> > waste.> >> >> >> > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no fiber or> complex> > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and cholesterol.> They> > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are frequently> > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics. Dairy> > products are linked to allergies, constipation, obesity, heart> > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> >> > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading authority on child> > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to children, saying it> can> > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent diabetes and in the> > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart disease,> America's> > number one cause of death.> >> > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis, not prevent> it,> > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from the body.> > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking Harvard study of> > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk can actually> > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our links page.> >> >> >> > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the average> American> > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products annually, which> is 40> > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to see an> > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is representative of> actual> > American eating habits.> >> > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy or rice milk,> > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and cream> cheese.> > All are widely available at health food stores and many> supermarkets.> > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free diet.> >> >> >> > In The News> >> > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of Catholics' (The> > Vancouver Sun)> >> > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel)> >> > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in your life.> It> > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all stop> drinking> > it today."> > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins University> >> >> >> > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree Vegetarian> Starter> > PackVegNow.com> >> >> >> >> >

August 22, 2002

Will ya fit in me luggage?

HEY! What happened to the hessian comment pal?

Oh, ok

now Jo likes metal so metal is ok.

Uh huh, I see

*sniff, sniff*

nikki

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

> nikki, if you go to a concert with jo, take me with you!!!! she

lives in the UK...i'll hide in yer luggage.....

> i'll meet you at the airport on the way home

>

> fraggle

>

August 22, 2002

Twas the way I use to wear them

Deicide eh?

man, haven't listened to them in a looooong time!

just got a copy of the new Helloween tape from a friend

supposedly just like they use to be if not better

we shall see

nikki <digging through old tapes>

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

> Nikki

>

> Why did you cut your t shirt in half?

>

> Oz-Fest - don't think so. Next one is In Flames, and I'm trying to

decide

> on Deicide, if I haven't already missed them.

>

> Jo

>

August 22, 2002

no..metal is lame

i just want a ride to england

notice i said i'd meet at the airport on the way back....i'm not going to some

metal show..just want company on the plane ride

\hahahahahahahha

fraggle

" nikki_mackovitch " <nikkimack wrote:

>Will ya fit in me luggage?

>

>HEY! What happened to the hessian comment pal?

>Oh, ok

>now Jo likes metal so metal is ok.

>Uh huh, I see

>

>*sniff, sniff*

>

>nikki

>

>, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

>> nikki, if you go to a concert with jo, take me with you!!!! she

>lives in the UK...i'll hide in yer luggage.....

>> i'll meet you at the airport on the way home

>>

>> fraggle

>>

>

>To send an email to -

>

August 22, 2002

, EBbrewpunx@c... wrote:

> no..metal is lame

> i just want a ride to england

> notice i said i'd meet at the airport on the way back....i'm not

going to some metal show..just want company on the plane ride

But on the other list I thought they said Fraggle Rocks ;-)

August 22, 2002

I'm scared these days, well in certain places anyway, until such time as I get a black belt in karate!!

Obviously these days the minority don't matter when it is the vegan minority against the animal eating majority, but inconsistently with that the non-smoking majority seem to have fewer rights than the smoking minority, so vegan non-smokers always lose out.

Waah it's not fair, *stamps foot*.

I suppose I am embarrassing, like Jo's colleague, but you know I don't care!

Lesley

Angie Wright [angiewright]22 August 2002 00:04 Subject: RE: Smoking

Surely part of the place should be non smoking.? I don't blame her for making a fuss Her only alternative it seems is not to eat in the cafe

.. Where are the equal rights ?

She should have the option of finding somewhere to eat with clean air.

Lots of none smokers don't like it but are too scared /embarrassed to make a fuss

Heartwork [Heartwork] 21 August 2002 20:25 Subject: Smoking

One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.

Jo

To send an email to -

August 22, 2002

, " Heartwork " <Heartwork@b...> wrote:

I work for AQA

Waaaaah!!!! Screams in amazement! I just did my English AS level

with them and have a pretty results notice to prove it. I can't

belive you work there! I don't suppose you'd have told me my reults

any earlier and put me out of my misery though, would you?

Cathy

ps a bit of snippage would not go amiss......

August 22, 2002

i guess its on in where you live

i get weirded out when i leave california, as here you can't smoke in public

buildings....

vegas is the worse..they smoke in every building and in airports

" Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote:

>

>I think she would have a good case to petition for at least SOME smoke-free

>places on campus, would you at least support her in that? They seem very

>backward where you are for the 21st century not to have some smoke-free

>places. She could have a gas mask wearing protest! ASH might have a local

>group who would support her (I really ought to join ASH myself).

>I don't know her so I cannot comment on whether she is a generally

>complaining type, but I know I don't complain about everything, even though

>it might come across that way. The second hand smoke is dangerous for her

>and you even if it doesn't make her or you feel ill at the time, it might

>make her feel ill though, it does for a lot of people, I have come across a

>few other people like me who get ill from it. If you choose to go to metal

>concerts that is your choice that you will tolerate smoke, you obviously

>don't mind it, but people should be most definitely protected from smoke in

>the workplace, it's a basic right, and if there are only smoky places to go

>for lunchtime that is not reasonable at all, as it takes away choices from

>non-smokers.

>

>Lesley

>

> Heartwork [Heartwork]

> 22 August 2002 16:07

>

> Re: Smoking

>

> I don't think there are any non-smoking places on campus. Even if they

>were all made non-smoking she would still find something else to complain

>about - like people talking too loudly etc.

>

> Jo

>

> I completely agree with your friend, it is the people like her who

>complain who bring about change in the status quo. Too many non-smokers are

>far too polite about tolerating smokers and it does no good, the bullying

>smokers still get to inflict their nasty habit on us. Eating places should

>all be smoke-free anyway as should most pubs as most people are non-smokers

>and no-one should have to be around it when they are eating.

> Aren't there any of these places that are completely non-smoking on

>campus? Maybe she needs to lobby for some provision for people who want a

>completely smoke-free place.

> It shouldn't be hard to provide since most people are non-smokers. I

>think it is very wrong if all the bars and cafes allow smoking on your

>campus.

>

> Lesley

>

> Heartwork [Heartwork]

> 21 August 2002 20:25

>

> Smoking

>

> One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or

>bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these

>places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a

>disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.

>

> Jo

>

> It actually affects me in such a way that I find it very hard to

>remain calm, so I suppose it is somewhere in between, not that I punch them

>or anything outrageous but I am not always over-polite either. I get quite

>extreme effects from second hand smoke almost immediately including not

>being able to breathe properly from mucus in my lungs, splitting headache

>comes soon after that, and I feel disorientated and it can take days to

>clear some of the effects and I am up at night coughing to clear my chest

>sometimes after exposure to smoke the day before. I was like this all the

>time as a child and only got about three hours sleep most nights, I was

>constantly clearing my chest and throat and coughing. Got bullied at school

>for it. So after all I have gone through I get very frightened by anyone

>smoking near me, I cross the road, even with my kids if I see someone

>smoking and walking towards us on the same side of the road, I will do

>almost anything to avoid it.

>

> Actually someone came to our neighbour's door smoking and our front

>doors are indoors right next to each other as we are in a small block of

>flats, and it happened that I was just around at the time, the smoke hit me

>as soon as I opened my door. The man had gone for a moment and my neighbour

>was there and I said I could smell someone had just been smoking, she said

>nothing, but when the man came back he was still smoking which proved I had

>not imagined it. I told him that I did not like smoke in the communal area

>of the flats, and it makes me ill, to my surprise he was actually apologetic

>and put it out but it was my neighbour who said it could surely not be

>affecting me and she was offended that I complained, so I told her in no

>uncertain terms that it did make me ill and I had every right to speak up.

>She is a non-smoker herself so she should have not stood up for him, I live

>there he does not so my rights should be mroe important there, anyway I

>don't suppose she will try standing up for a smoker against me again, now

>she knows how I feel, but it surprised me that she was so unaware that it

>really makes some people ill. I was angry that the neighbour obviously did

>not respect my right to not be bombarded with it right at my front door, if

>someone comes to my door smoking and I see them through the spy-hole I would

>not open the door to them.

>

> Lesley

>

> nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]

> 21 August 2002 13:46

>

> Re: milk sucksssssssss

>

> Lesley,

>

> Quick question. When someone is smoking around you and it is

> bothering you, do u ask them nicely to put it out explaining that

>you

> do not like it and how it affects you. Er do you go fer their

> throats, er somewhere in-between.

>

> If someone asked me nicely or somewhere in between I would comply,

> apologize and thank them fer letting me know. If they went fer me

> throat, tho I would still put it out, I would have a nice word or

>two

> afterwards on how all they had to do was ask.

>

> just me....

>

> nikki

>

> , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote:

> >

> > They impose their smoke on non-smokers though, when it affects

>me I

> do feel

> > I have the right to tell them to stop it around me. If they

>could

> put big

> > bowls like a spaceman's helmet over their heads and kept their

> smoke to

> > themselves in there I would just think it was silly and bad for

> them but it

> > would not affect me or other non-smokers and I would not get so

> upset about

> > it. It would be their funeral and no-one else's.

> >

> > My dad who quit many years ago says if we were meant to smoke we

> would have

> > chimneys on our heads. I agree with him that it smoking is a

>very

> strange

> > and perverse idea.

> >

> > Lesley

> >

> > Heartwork [Heartwork@b...]

> > 20 August 2002 18:24

> >

> > Re: Re: milk sucksssssssss

> >

> > Lesley

> >

> > I think the point is that we cannot tell other people what to

> do. We have

> > to decide for ourselves what parts of life we join in with and

> which parts

> > we separate ourselves from. We cannot impose our will on

>everyone

> else.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > -

> > Lesley Dove

> >

> > Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM

> > RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss

> >

> > Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos

> and marches

> > put people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so

>ill,

> that I

> > am considering not going on a march again if I have to be

> surrounded by

> > cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and

>after

> outside

> > the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but

> experience

> > has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use

>to

> anyone

> > I believe demos and protests for the animals should be

>strictly

> > non-smoking affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the

>public

> to have

> > people smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.

> >

> > Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an

> ethical vegan

> > and will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I

> will not

> > make what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy

> leading to

> > improved health and less mucus for instance, because in my

> experience it

> > made no difference to my health except mentally to my conscience

> and peace

> > of mind.

> > My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was

>able

> to live

> > away from second hand smoke.

> >

> > Lesley

> >

> > cathyjupp [cj@r...]

> > 19 August 2002 13:29

> >

> > Re: milk sucksssssssss

> >

> > BUT I will

> > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining

>anti-

> tobacco

> > campaigning

> > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.

> >

> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm

> sure that

> > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.

> >

> > Their veganism will not protect them

> > > from the harm they are doing to themselves.

> > >

> >

> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their

> health, but

> > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some

> British of

> > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't

>think

> that

> > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for

> them - but

> > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or

>nothing

> to do

> > with it.

> >

> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum?

>Shall

> I leave

> > now?

> >

> > Cathy

> >

> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking

> for a

> > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here -

>never

> > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the

> lists when

> > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........

> >

> > >

> > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]

> > > 19 August 2002 11:43

> > >

> > > milk sucksssssssss

> > >

> > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's

> Disease? Heart

> > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits?

> Gas? Mucus?

> > > Beer?

> > >

> > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and

>strong

> bones.

> > >

> > > MILK SUCKS...

> > > FOR THE ANIMALS:

> > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in

> huge sheds

> > and

> > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small

> family farms.

> > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production

> technologies,

> > it

> > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds

>of

> milk a

> > day—

> > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To

>keep

> milk

> > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially

> inseminate

> > cows

> > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking

> schedules cause

> > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that

> they

> > sometimes

> > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections

>and

> overuse

> > of

> > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to

> feed their

> > own

> > > babies -- not humans.

> > >

> > > Male calves, the " byproducts " of the dairy industry,

> endure 14

> > to17

> > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they

>can't

> even turn

> > > around. Female calves often replace their old,

>worn-out

> mothers,

> > or

> > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in

>their

> stomachs

> > (an

> > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often

> kept in

> > tiny

> > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months

>of

> their

> > lives,

> > > only to grow up to become " milk machines " like their

> mothers.

> > >

> > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:

> > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like

> humans,

> > expend

> > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their

> lives. It

> > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs

>cycled

> through

> > cows

> > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is

>milk a

> waste of

> > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a

> disastrous

> > source

> > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of

> waste every

> > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no

> toilets,

> > > sewers, or treatment plants.

> > >

> > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is

> destroying the

> > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-

> fifth of the

> > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy

> farms has

> > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers,

>and

> streams.

> > In

> > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as

>much

> > excrement

> > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish

>farm

> of 200

> > cows

> > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a

> community of

> > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate

>report

> on

> > animal

> > > waste.

> > >

> > > FOR YOUR HEALTH:

> > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no

>fiber

> or

> > complex

> > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and

> cholesterol.

> > They

> > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are

> frequently

> > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and

>antibiotics.

> Dairy

> > > products are linked to allergies, constipation,

>obesity,

> heart

> > > disease, cancer, and other diseases.

> > >

> > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading

>authority

> on child

> > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to

>children,

> saying it

> > can

> > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent

>diabetes

> and in the

> > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart

>disease,

> > America's

> > > number one cause of death.

> > >

> > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis,

>not

> prevent

> > it,

> > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from

>the

> body.

> > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking

>Harvard

> study of

> > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk

>can

> actually

> > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our

>links

> page.

> > >

> > > WHAT YOU CAN DO:

> > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the

> average

> > American

> > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products

>annually,

> which

> > is 40

> > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to

>see

> an

> > > illustration of the " Food Pyramid " which is

> representative of

> > actual

> > > American eating habits.

> > >

> > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy

>or

> rice milk,

> > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and

> cream

> > cheese.

> > > All are widely available at health food stores and

>many

> > supermarkets.

> > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free

>diet.

> > >

> > > In The News

> > >

> > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of

>Catholics'

> (The

> > > Vancouver Sun)

> > >

> > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-

> Sentinel)

> > >

> > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)

> > >

> > > " There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in

> your life.

> > It

> > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all

> stop

> > drinking

> > > it today. "

> > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski

> > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins

>University

> > >

> > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals

> > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA

> > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree

> Vegetarian

> > Starter

> > > PackVegNow.com

> > >

August 22, 2002

Ya know, I was gonna stay outta this discussion because well, I

didn't feel like getting back into it

But I have to coment on this part:

>

> . Where are the equal rights ?

Because in earlier topics I saw the postings of NO smoking in public

places. Where were the equal rights then? Or does it only conform to

where it matters to some people?

Now I am not picking on Angie er anyone else. Just a thought as soon

as I saw this.

nikki - who hates this topic cause it's makin' her jones!!!

, " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

> Surely part of the place should be non smoking.? I don't blame her

for

> making a fuss Her only alternative it seems is not to eat in the

> cafe

>

> . Where are the equal rights ?

>

> She should have the option of finding somewhere to eat with clean

air.

>

> Lots of none smokers don't like it but are too scared /embarrassed

to

> make a fuss

>

> Angie

August 22, 2002

Hi Nikki

> man, haven't listened to them in a looooong time!

> just got a copy of the new Helloween tape from a friend

> supposedly just like they use to be if not better

I haven't heard the latest, but I like their last couple of albums.

BB

Peter

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August 22, 2002

ooooooooooh!

> But on the other list I thought they said Fraggle Rocks ;-)

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August 22, 2002

'fraid not - more than my jobs' worth. You obviously weren't one of the

English scripts that went missing then!!! I presume you passed, and if so

congrats.

Jo

> Waaaaah!!!! Screams in amazement! I just did my English AS level

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August 22, 2002

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

> 'fraid not - more than my jobs' worth. You obviously weren't one

of the

> English scripts that went missing then!!! I presume you passed,

and if so

> congrats.

>

> Jo

Well if I was then they made up my score! I should find out soon,

I'm trying to get my scripts back, without much co-operation from my

Evening Institute. You could help me by telling me the final

application date for script return, only the woman who is supposed to

be dealing with my request has just gone on a week's holiday without

letting me know and I haven't paid or anything so nothing's going to

happen and I'm concerned!

I did pass. I am very happy. A2 next year - I want an A grade!

Thank you!

Cheers

Cathy

August 23, 2002

It's probably somewhere in between the two extremes in the UK, local hospital pretty much has all the smokers crowded round outside the main door getting their fix and you have to walk past clouds of smoke to get in and out the main entrance, because the whole building is no smoking, things have improved, when I was nursing smoking was allowed in staff break areas a lot. Most trains and the underground are no smoking (although ordinary overground train stations are usually not no smoking) but pubs are very smoky in this country, and a lot of eating places allow smoking (even some veggie places are not totally smoke-free) but many places, even some pubs, have no smoking areas, it can drift though, depending on the air conditioning.

Our local bus station has no smoking signs up but loads of people smoke there and they can't enforce it as there is no by law so the signs are worthless! That is really annoying. Some very rude smokers will even walk into small shops including food shops smoking and get away with it, but they would not get away with it in the supermarkets, the security people would stop them so I've never seen anyone try it.

It really varies, but you don't get them treated as social outcasts the way I have heard it is in California. I think I would like California. Apparently Russell Crowe won't live there because he is a smoker and doesn't like the way they allegedly treat smokers there.

Lesley

EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]22 August 2002 19:02 Subject: RE: Smokingi guess its on in where you live i get weirded out when i leave california, as here you can't smoke in public buildings....vegas is the worse..they smoke in every building and in airports"Lesley Dove" <Lesley wrote:>>I think she would have a good case to petition for at least SOME smoke-free>places on campus, would you at least support her in that? They seem very>backward where you are for the 21st century not to have some smoke-free>places. She could have a gas mask wearing protest! ASH might have a local>group who would support her (I really ought to join ASH myself).>I don't know her so I cannot comment on whether she is a generally>complaining type, but I know I don't complain about everything, even though>it might come across that way. The second hand smoke is dangerous for her>and you even if it doesn't make her or you feel ill at the time, it might>make her feel ill though, it does for a lot of people, I have come across a>few other people like me who get ill from it. If you choose to go to metal>concerts that is your choice that you will tolerate smoke, you obviously>don't mind it, but people should be most definitely protected from smoke in>the workplace, it's a basic right, and if there are only smoky places to go>for lunchtime that is not reasonable at all, as it takes away choices from>non-smokers.>>Lesley>> > Heartwork [Heartwork]> 22 August 2002 16:07> > Re: Smoking>>> I don't think there are any non-smoking places on campus. Even if they>were all made non-smoking she would still find something else to complain>about - like people talking too loudly etc.>> Jo>> I completely agree with your friend, it is the people like her who>complain who bring about change in the status quo. Too many non-smokers are>far too polite about tolerating smokers and it does no good, the bullying>smokers still get to inflict their nasty habit on us. Eating places should>all be smoke-free anyway as should most pubs as most people are non-smokers>and no-one should have to be around it when they are eating.> Aren't there any of these places that are completely non-smoking on>campus? Maybe she needs to lobby for some provision for people who want a>completely smoke-free place.> It shouldn't be hard to provide since most people are non-smokers. I>think it is very wrong if all the bars and cafes allow smoking on your>campus.>> Lesley>> > Heartwork [Heartwork]> 21 August 2002 20:25> > Smoking>>> One of my work friends is very embarrassing. If we go to a cafe or>bar on the campus at lunchtime she will fuss if someone is smoking - these>places are not non-smoking, so if we go there we shouldn't create a>disturbance. But she just doesn't see that at all.>> Jo>>> It actually affects me in such a way that I find it very hard to>remain calm, so I suppose it is somewhere in between, not that I punch them>or anything outrageous but I am not always over-polite either. I get quite>extreme effects from second hand smoke almost immediately including not>being able to breathe properly from mucus in my lungs, splitting headache>comes soon after that, and I feel disorientated and it can take days to>clear some of the effects and I am up at night coughing to clear my chest>sometimes after exposure to smoke the day before. I was like this all the>time as a child and only got about three hours sleep most nights, I was>constantly clearing my chest and throat and coughing. Got bullied at school>for it. So after all I have gone through I get very frightened by anyone>smoking near me, I cross the road, even with my kids if I see someone>smoking and walking towards us on the same side of the road, I will do>almost anything to avoid it.>> Actually someone came to our neighbour's door smoking and our front>doors are indoors right next to each other as we are in a small block of>flats, and it happened that I was just around at the time, the smoke hit me>as soon as I opened my door. The man had gone for a moment and my neighbour>was there and I said I could smell someone had just been smoking, she said>nothing, but when the man came back he was still smoking which proved I had>not imagined it. I told him that I did not like smoke in the communal area>of the flats, and it makes me ill, to my surprise he was actually apologetic>and put it out but it was my neighbour who said it could surely not be>affecting me and she was offended that I complained, so I told her in no>uncertain terms that it did make me ill and I had every right to speak up.>She is a non-smoker herself so she should have not stood up for him, I live>there he does not so my rights should be mroe important there, anyway I>don't suppose she will try standing up for a smoker against me again, now>she knows how I feel, but it surprised me that she was so unaware that it>really makes some people ill. I was angry that the neighbour obviously did>not respect my right to not be bombarded with it right at my front door, if>someone comes to my door smoking and I see them through the spy-hole I would>not open the door to them.>> Lesley>>> > nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]> 21 August 2002 13:46> > Re: milk sucksssssssss>>> Lesley,>> Quick question. When someone is smoking around you and it is> bothering you, do u ask them nicely to put it out explaining that>you> do not like it and how it affects you. Er do you go fer their> throats, er somewhere in-between.>> If someone asked me nicely or somewhere in between I would comply,> apologize and thank them fer letting me know. If they went fer me> throat, tho I would still put it out, I would have a nice word or>two> afterwards on how all they had to do was ask.>> just me....>> nikki >> , "Lesley Dove" <Lesley@v...> wrote:> >> > They impose their smoke on non-smokers though, when it affects>me I> do feel> > I have the right to tell them to stop it around me. If they>could> put big> > bowls like a spaceman's helmet over their heads and kept their> smoke to> > themselves in there I would just think it was silly and bad for> them but it> > would not affect me or other non-smokers and I would not get so> upset about> > it. It would be their funeral and no-one else's.> >> > My dad who quit many years ago says if we were meant to smoke we> would have> > chimneys on our heads. I agree with him that it smoking is a>very> strange> > and perverse idea.> >> > Lesley> >> > > > Heartwork [Heartwork@b...]> > 20 August 2002 18:24> > > > Re: Re: milk sucksssssssss> >> >> > Lesley> >> > I think the point is that we cannot tell other people what to> do. We have> > to decide for ourselves what parts of life we join in with and> which parts> > we separate ourselves from. We cannot impose our will on>everyone> else.> >> > Jo> >> > -> > Lesley Dove> > > > Monday, August 19, 2002 6:26 PM> > RE: Re: milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> > Is it worth AR people smoking though if the smokers on demos> and marches> > put people who are sensitive like me off going? It makes me so>ill,> that I> > am considering not going on a march again if I have to be> surrounded by> > cigarette smoke, I felt very sick on the demo in London and>after> outside> > the pub, some of it might have been the car fumes in London but> experience> > has taught me that tobacco smoke affects me worse! I'm nmo use>to> anyone> > I believe demos and protests for the animals should be>strictly> > non-smoking affairs, it creates a very bad impression on the>public> to have> > people smoking. We have to present a nice clean living image.> >> > Dairy cows have no reason to feel let down by me, I am an> ethical vegan> > and will always promote veganism on animal rights grounds but I> will not> > make what I believe to be false claims about giving up dairy> leading to> > improved health and less mucus for instance, because in my> experience it> > made no difference to my health except mentally to my conscience> and peace> > of mind.> > My mucus and chest and head problems remained until I was>able> to live> > away from second hand smoke.> >> > Lesley> >> > > > cathyjupp [cj@r...]> > 19 August 2002 13:29> > > > Re: milk sucksssssssss> >> >> >> >> > BUT I will> > > speak out when I see the vegan movement undermining>anti-> tobacco> > campaigning> > > by overstating the role of dairy in cancers.> >> > That would be overstating IN YOUR OPINION, would it? I'm> sure that> > dairy cows everywhere would like to thank you.> >> > Their veganism will not protect them> > > from the harm they are doing to themselves.> > >> >> > The only vegans I know personally aren't vegan for their> health, but> > for the animals' (I know a lot of Americals are, and some> British of> > course - I just haven't met any personally). I don't>think> that> > anyone would reasonably argue that smoking was not bad for> them - but> > some people think it worth it. Veganism has little or>nothing> to do> > with it.> >> > Is this going to turn into another anti-smoking forum?>Shall> I leave> > now?> >> > Cathy> >> > ps Hallo everyone who knows me from before. Been lurking> for a> > while to see how everyone is and what's going on here ->never> > intended to post because I spend far too much time at the> lists when> > I get going, but you know how it is sometimes........> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > > > > > ibizkus [ibyza2001@h...]> > > 19 August 2002 11:43> > > > > > milk sucksssssssss> > >> > >> > >> > > Got... Breast Cancer? Prostate Cancer? Crohn's> Disease? Heart> > > Disease Sick Kids? Osteoporosis Fat? Veal? Fat? Zits?> Gas? Mucus?> > > Beer?> > >> > >> > > Click here for the truth about dairy products and>strong> bones.> > >> > > MILK SUCKS...> > > FOR THE ANIMALS:> > > Corporate-owned factories where cows are warehoused in> huge sheds> > and> > > treated like milk machines have replaced most small> family farms.> > > With genetic manipulation and intensive production> technologies,> > it> > > is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds>of> milk a> > day—> > > 10 times more than they would produce in nature. To>keep> milk> > > production as high as possible, farmers artificially> inseminate> > cows> > > every year. Growth hormones and unnatural milking> schedules cause> > > dairy cows' udders to become painful and so heavy that> they> > sometimes> > > drag on the ground, resulting in frequent infections>and> overuse> > of> > > antibiotics. Cows -- like all mammals -- make milk to> feed their> > own> > > babies -- not humans.> > >> > >> > > Male calves, the "byproducts" of the dairy industry,> endure 14> > to17> > > weeks of torment in veal crates so small that they>can't> even turn> > > around. Female calves often replace their old,>worn-out> mothers,> > or> > > are slaughtered soon after birth for the rennet in>their> stomachs> > (an> > > ingredient of most commercial cheeses). They are often> kept in> > tiny> > > crates or tethered in stalls for the first few months>of> their> > lives,> > > only to grow up to become "milk machines" like their> mothers.> > >> > >> > > FOR THE ENVIRONMENT:> > > Cow's milk is an inefficient food source. Cows, like> humans,> > expend> > > the majority of their food intake simply leading their> lives. It> > > takes a great deal of grain and other foodstuffs>cycled> through> > cows> > > to produce a small amount of milk. And not only is>milk a> waste of> > > energy and water, the production of milk is also a> disastrous> > source> > > of water pollution. A dairy cow produces 120 pounds of> waste every> > > day -- equal to that of two dozen people, but with no> toilets,> > > sewers, or treatment plants.> > >> > > In Lancaster County, Pa., manure from dairy cows is> destroying the> > > Chesapeake Bay, and in California, which produces one-> fifth of the> > > country's total supply of milk, the manure from dairy> farms has> > > poisoned vast expanses of underground water, rivers,>and> streams.> > In> > > the Central Valley of California, the cows produce as>much> > excrement> > > as a city of 21 million people, and even a smallish>farm> of 200> > cows> > > will produce as much nitrogen as in the sewage from a> community of> > > 5,000 to 10,000 people, according to a U.S. Senate>report> on> > animal> > > waste.> > >> > >> > >> > > FOR YOUR HEALTH:> > > Dairy products are a health hazard. They contain no>fiber> or> > complex> > > carbohydrates and are laden with saturated fat and> cholesterol.> > They> > > are contaminated with cow's blood and pus and are> frequently> > > contaminated with pesticides, hormones, and>antibiotics.> Dairy> > > products are linked to allergies, constipation,>obesity,> heart> > > disease, cancer, and other diseases.> > >> > > The late Dr. Benjamin Spock, America's leading>authority> on child> > > care, spoke out against feeding cow's milk to>children,> saying it> > can> > > cause anemia, allergies, and insulin-dependent>diabetes> and in the> > > long term, will set kids up for obesity and heart>disease,> > America's> > > number one cause of death.> > >> > > And dairy products may actually cause osteoporosis,>not> prevent> > it,> > > since their high-protein content leaches calcium from>the> body.> > > Population studies, backed up by a groundbreaking>Harvard> study of> > > more than 75,000 nurses, suggest that drinking milk>can> actually> > > cause osteoporosis. Find out more by visiting our>links> page.> > >> > >> > >> > > WHAT YOU CAN DO:> > > According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the> average> > American> > > consumes more than 550 pounds of dairy products>annually,> which> > is 40> > > percent of the bulk of the food we eat. Click here to>see> an> > > illustration of the "Food Pyramid" which is> representative of> > actual> > > American eating habits.> > >> > > Give the bottle the boot! Instead, try delicious soy>or> rice milk,> > > soy cheese, Tofutti ice cream, and tofu sour cream and> cream> > cheese.> > > All are widely available at health food stores and>many> > supermarkets.> > > Click here for information on adopting a dairy-free>diet.> > >> > >> > >> > > In The News> > >> > > Anit-milk ad 'a cheap point at the expense of>Catholics'> (The> > > Vancouver Sun)> > >> > > Factory Dairies Invade Wisconsin (Milwaukee Journal-> Sentinel)> > >> > > White Poison: The Horrors of Milk(Times of India)> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > "There's no reason to drink cow's milk at any time in> your life.> > It> > > was designed for calves, not humans, and we should all> stop> > drinking> > > it today."> > > -Dr. Frank A. Oski> > > Former Director of Pediatrics, Johns Hopkins>University> > >> > >> > >> > > People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals> > > 501 Front St., Norfolk, VA 23510; 757-622-PETA> > > MilkSucks.comLiving Dairy-FreeFind Out MoreFree> Vegetarian> > Starter> > > PackVegNow.com> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >

August 23, 2002

What is "jones"?

Lesley

nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]22 August 2002 19:08 Subject: Re: SmokingYa know, I was gonna stay outta this discussion because well, I didn't feel like getting back into it :)But I have to coment on this part:> > . Where are the equal rights ? Because in earlier topics I saw the postings of NO smoking in public places. Where were the equal rights then? Or does it only conform to where it matters to some people?Now I am not picking on Angie er anyone else. Just a thought as soon as I saw this.nikki - who hates this topic cause it's makin' her jones!!!, "Angie Wright" <angiewright@n...> wrote:> Surely part of the place should be non smoking.? I don't blame her for> making a fuss Her only alternative it seems is not to eat in the> cafe > > . Where are the equal rights ? > > She should have the option of finding somewhere to eat with clean air.> > Lots of none smokers don't like it but are too scared /embarrassed to> make a fuss > > AngieTo send an email to -

August 23, 2002

Morning Peter!

I'll let ya know what I think. Honestly haven't listened to them in

ages.

Me friend Rich swears up and down tho it's a great tape.

We shall see

nikki

, " Peter " <Snowbow@b...> wrote:

> Hi Nikki

>

> > man, haven't listened to them in a looooong time!

> > just got a copy of the new Helloween tape from a friend

> > supposedly just like they use to be if not better

>

> I haven't heard the latest, but I like their last couple of albums.

>

> BB

> Peter

>

August 23, 2002

Good Morning Lesley!

Ooops, sorry!

to crave

nikki

, " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote:

> What is " jones " ?

>

> Lesley

>

August 23, 2002

Hi Cathy

I'm afraid I can't help with the date at present, not until I go back on

Tuesday. I'm in the GCSE department. You could try the AQA website

www.aqa.org and look under Administration (I think) - there's a list of

dates there.

Jo

>> Well if I was then they made up my score! I should find out soon,

> I'm trying to get my scripts back, without much co-operation from my

> Evening Institute. You could help me by telling me the final

> application date for script return, only the woman who is supposed to

> be dealing with my request has just gone on a week's holiday without

> letting me know and I haven't paid or anything so nothing's going to

> happen and I'm concerned!

> I did pass. I am very happy. A2 next year - I want an A grade!

> Thank you!

> Cheers

> Cathy

>

> To send an email to -

>

August 23, 2002

jones is slang fer wanting something really bad

jonesing for a smoke...

" Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote:

>What is " jones " ?

>

>Lesley

>

> nikki_mackovitch [nikkimack]

> 22 August 2002 19:08

>

> Re: Smoking

>

> Ya know, I was gonna stay outta this discussion because well, I

> didn't feel like getting back into it

>

> But I have to coment on this part:

>

> >

> > . Where are the equal rights ?

>

> Because in earlier topics I saw the postings of NO smoking in public

> places. Where were the equal rights then? Or does it only conform to

> where it matters to some people?

>

> Now I am not picking on Angie er anyone else. Just a thought as soon

> as I saw this.

>

> nikki - who hates this topic cause it's makin' her jones!!!

>

> , " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote:

> > Surely part of the place should be non smoking.? I don't blame her

> for

> > making a fuss Her only alternative it seems is not to eat in the

> > cafe

> >

> > . Where are the equal rights ?

> >

> > She should have the option of finding somewhere to eat with clean

> air.

> >

> > Lots of none smokers don't like it but are too scared /embarrassed

> to

> > make a fuss

> >

> > Angie

>

August 23, 2002

Jo I was thinking of marking GCSE papers Do you have an address I coild write to for application form ?

Thanks

Hi Cathy I'm in the GCSE department. You could try the AQA websitewww.aqa.org and look under Administration (I think) - there's a list ofdates there.

---

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release 05/06/2002

August 24, 2002

Hi Angie

The address is Processing/Examiners Department, AQA, Stag Hill House, Guildford, Surrey. I cannot remember the postcode but it will get there anyway.

Jo

Jo I was thinking of marking GCSE papers Do you have an address I coild write to for application form ?

Thanks

Hi Cathy I'm in the GCSE department. You could try the AQA websitewww.aqa.org and look under Administration (I think) - there's a list ofdates there.

To send an email to -

Smoking

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