Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars....To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Enough of those sexist remarks :-) Adam could have declined. Jo - Craig Dearth Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:46 PM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars....To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 we could be speciest and blame it on the snake Enough of those sexist remarks :-) Adam could have declined. Jo _chat] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 in the Gnostic Bible, there is quite a different version of the Adam and Eve story. they believed in 2 gods the god of good and the god of evil and the evil god created the material world, but could not give it life so the good god gave all the animals life. then the good god came to Eve as a snake and told her to eat from the tree of knowledge so that humans could tell the difference between good and evil, the evil god got made and banished them from the garden of Eden. well that's the short version all the best Craig Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Enough of those sexist remarks :-) Adam could have declined. Jo Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 my knowledge of the first peoples of california is sadly sorta lacking, as i didn't grow up here..only spent my summers on SoCal after my unillustrious birth heard of the wiyot..and thats about it... i know a little about the former local inhabitants(ohlone, miwok, etc)..but.... while i agree that the native peoples of the Americas were nothing like the europeans who came to conquer, colonize and urinate all over themselves after gold, being humans, they also made war on one another, etc (again..i think the california nations were a tad different.....as at least the local tribes seemed to be pretty much at peace with one another) but even the first nations fought with one another..there were impressive nations , especially in the southeast, and they had warriors and all that..clashed with all that... they just weren't so into out and out absolute conquest as the folks from across the pond... different cultures its a sad fact that when the first europeans arrived, the peoples they encountered thought of the europeans generally as equals and as new trading partners and allies..while the europeans in general looked down at these *savages* as inferior beasts who at the least needed to be taken into the bosom of Christ and "civilized, and at the worse as animals who could be slaughtered at will but....there has to be a reason why half the names we ascribe to native tribes seem to translate as "those jerks we hate over there..".. and no..again, sorry..i know diddily about the Wiyot or where they hailed from, their language, culture, er anything Lynda May 6, 2005 11:03 PM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars.... To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 No one can change history.Even with a time machine theres always a flippin paradox! I know, I`ve watched The Simpsons........... History is full of mans fabulously cavalier and callous acts, hey I heard that Japan actually just acknowledged that it may have had something to do with the second world war? who would have guessed? Now if only they would own up to their whaling fleet being commercial not scientific! Why be bitter when you can be sweet? Some things you can do absolutley jack sh*t about, which may make you mad, but you will never get even.So let it go. Acknowledge it, and do what you can to preserve what you know of your heritage, and try and be the best you can be. The Valley Vegan............possibly of Celtic extraction. Jo Cwazy <heartwork wrote: I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars....To send an email to - To send an email to - Peter H Messenger - want a free easy way to contact your friends online? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 while i agree with you on most of yer points jo, let me just say that, when your culture has been destroyed utterly, yer people enslaved, its going to be hard to forget and forgive, do you not think? while i doubt any of us were around er dirrectly responsible fer landing on these shores and spreading disease, out and out genocide, or theft(ya never know...maybe yer vegan diet allows you to survive fer a few centuries), we are the inheritors of those who came before... old animosities die hard that goes for all conquered peoples it seems hence..wales... and yes, the UK has seen britons, celts, irish, vikings, angles, saxons, jutes, norman french, etc sweep thru at various times... but... you became a great nation and conquerer in yer own right, after all that had occurred how do you think english citizens would feel today(wotever an english citizen is...indian,welsh, scottish, chinese, etc) if germany had won in WWII and still occupied the UK today? one last point...remember that some of yer greatest heroes have been those in yer past who stood up to the eventual conquerors.. queen boudica against the romans king arthur against the anglo-saxons robin hood against the normans old feelings don't die very easily cheers and loads of hugs fraggle Jo Cwazy May 7, 2005 3:57 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo ----- Original And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 the funny thing about that most first nations creation stories tell it that they were in eden..they had been created for this place(even if they came from somewhere else) while adam and eve got cast out Craig Dearth May 7, 2005 4:46 AM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars.... To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 i blame the apple, i mean pomegranate..er wotever it was... Craig Dearth May 7, 2005 5:11 AM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange we could be speciest and blame it on the snake Enough of those sexist remarks :-) Adam could have declined. Jo _chat] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler.To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 heresy next you'll be spouting cathar thoughts.... Craig Dearth May 7, 2005 5:21 AM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange in the Gnostic Bible, there is quite a different version of the Adam and Eve story. they believed in 2 gods the god of good and the god of evil and the evil god created the material world, but could not give it life so the good god gave all the animals life. then the good god came to Eve as a snake and told her to eat from the tree of knowledge so that humans could tell the difference between good and evil, the evil god got made and banished them from the garden of Eden. well that's the short version all the best Craig Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Enough of those sexist remarks :-) Adam could have declined. Jo Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > and yes, the UK has seen britons, celts, irish, vikings, angles, saxons, jutes, norman french, etc sweep thru at various times... > but... > you became a great nation and conquerer in yer own right, after all that had occurred > how do you think english citizens would feel today(wotever an english citizen is...indian,welsh, scottish, chinese, etc) if > germany had won in WWII and still occupied the UK today? But you'd be really surprised at the number of people who *still* see the battle of Hastings as "them" coming to England and conquering "us"... I wouldn't say that it engenders any hatred of "them", but it's still a curious phenomena! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > i blame the apple, i mean pomegranate..er wotever it was... It's actually undefined... just a "fruit", which medieval painters and sculptors decided was an apple! Personally, I blame the "other people" - I'm sure it's all their fault! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hi Jo > I thought the 'normal' bible believed in many gods - didn't it say that you should not worship any other gods or something similar, > and good and evil totally divided is a Christian concept too. Not that it matters. Of course, it is also a Christian concept that the > Earth and matter is connected with evil and heaven connected with good etc. The end certainly sounds different. Still, not my > religion, and I'm no expert on it. There are two main "named" gods in the Christian bible - El (the Sumerian chief god) and Yahweh (the Babylonian storm god) - in a rough approximation, El got translated as "Lord", Yahweh as "God" in the KJV, although both are taken to mean the same being. What you're thinking of is the 1st commandment which states "you shall worship no other gods" (or words to that effect), implying that there are plenty of others around. I seem to recall that there is quite a lot of evidence that Asherah was worshipped alongside Yahweh at the Temple of Solomon, and of course, the original "sermon on the mount" speaks of Malkeeth, the Earth Goddess - so there are quite a few different gods mentioned all in all! What Craig mentioned sounded quite like the standard "dualistic" beliefs of people like Cathars, Bogomils, Bulgars, Manichaeans, etc. in which the "good" god was the god of spirit, and the "evil" god was the one who had created the earth and matter. Certain sects therefore believed that it was evil to bring more children into the world... the Bulgars found one particular solution to the problem of having sex without producing children... hence a particular word in modern vocabulary derived from the name of the sect!! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > how do you think english citizens would feel today(wotever an english citizen is...indian,welsh, scottish, chinese, etc) if > germany had won in WWII and still occupied the UK today? You mean they didn't? Sometimes it seems like our government have the same values! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 and you've had almost a thousand years to digest that... tis my point is all Peter May 7, 2005 8:15 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Hi Fraggle > and yes, the UK has seen britons, celts, irish, vikings, angles, saxons, jutes, norman french, etc sweep thru at various times... > but... > you became a great nation and conquerer in yer own right, after all that had occurred > how do you think english citizens would feel today(wotever an english citizen is...indian,welsh, scottish, chinese, etc) if > germany had won in WWII and still occupied the UK today? But you'd be really surprised at the number of people who *still* see the battle of Hastings as "them" coming to England and conquering "us"... I wouldn't say that it engenders any hatred of "them", but it's still a curious phenomena! BB Peter To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Yeah. We were invaded so many times, and our culture changed each time, incuding our native religion, that there is nothing much left of the original as far as I can see. I can understand native Americans feeling the way they do, I have put their point of view over in many discussions, but I have never had one blame me for their demise, until now. What I can't understand is hatred for something that happened a few hundred years ago. I could understand the native Americans disliking the more recent US governments for the continued bad treatment because that is more current. Anyway ... there's not much more to be said, and I am disheartened by some of the thoughts expressed over the last few days so I'll drop it for a while. BBJo - fraggle Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:50 PM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange while i agree with you on most of yer points jo, let me just say that, when your culture has been destroyed utterly, yer people enslaved, its going to be hard to forget and forgive, do you not think? while i doubt any of us were around er dirrectly responsible fer landing on these shores and spreading disease, out and out genocide, or theft(ya never know...maybe yer vegan diet allows you to survive fer a few centuries), we are the inheritors of those who came before... old animosities die hard that goes for all conquered peoples it seems hence..wales... and yes, the UK has seen britons, celts, irish, vikings, angles, saxons, jutes, norman french, etc sweep thru at various times... but... you became a great nation and conquerer in yer own right, after all that had occurred how do you think english citizens would feel today(wotever an english citizen is...indian,welsh, scottish, chinese, etc) if germany had won in WWII and still occupied the UK today? one last point...remember that some of yer greatest heroes have been those in yer past who stood up to the eventual conquerors.. queen boudica against the romans king arthur against the anglo-saxons robin hood against the normans old feelings don't die very easily cheers and loads of hugs fraggle Jo Cwazy May 7, 2005 3:57 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo ----- Original To send an email to - And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 There always seem to be problems and anomalies when people try to trace backwards. Probably best to look forward. Jo - fraggle Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:52 PM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange the funny thing about that most first nations creation stories tell it that they were in eden..they had been created for this place(even if they came from somewhere else) while adam and eve got cast out Craig Dearth May 7, 2005 4:46 AM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars.... To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Well, how long is too long? My uncle was killed. That wasn't that long ago. Relatives were still slaves into the early 1900s. Not all that long ago. The law that changed our status from defined as an *animal* to a *human* was in 1928. Again, not that long ago. Children used as test subject for pharmaceutical companies was in the 1990s. Really not that long ago. The theft of millions of dollars from the trust funds was in the mid 1990s. Ten years ago. Our history is not that old. And, it isn't hate, it is anger and I use that anger to make a difference. Lynda - Jo Cwazy Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:57 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Hey, a guys wrote the stories, they were probably doing the guy thing and covering up for Adam and blaming Eve <g> Lynda - Jo Cwazy Saturday, May 07, 2005 4:53 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Enough of those sexist remarks :-) Adam could have declined. Jo - Craig Dearth Saturday, May 07, 2005 12:46 PM RE: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Jo, I blame Eve she started it all........lol Craig ] History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 7:03 AM History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Ah, but that's the problem. We lived in paradise and didn't have any need to move. The average temp only varies by 10 degrees, there are less than half a dozen frost days, draught is unheard of, over 300 growing days and tons of wild fruits, veggies, fish, fowl, deer and elk (no vegetarians or vegans back then). Plus we had no problems with our neighbors. Socialism worked and we were happy little campers until after 1849. Why, we didn't even have a word for "theft!" Nope, we lived there happily, except for the occasional earthquake or tsunami, for at least 10,000 years. And then, unfortunately, we were "discovered," not that we ever knew we were "lost" or needed finding. Nope, since we'd never had any "wars" with our neighbors, we had no weapons for fighting and by the end of 1861, 90% of the population was either dead (massacre of 1860), sold into slavery (California had slaves long after the civil war. Contrary to what is taught in history books, only the slavery of "black" folks was illegal), been shipped out in the hold of a ship as cargo to points north (no food, water, blankets or bathroom facilities for a week) or been forced to march either through the Trinity Alps or down to Round Valley in the middle of winter (not many survived that). The nation would be Wiyot. You probably won't find much about us in any history books, we usually aren't mentioned and what is mentioned is usually not accurate. Nor is the massacre when kids are taught about California history and the man that tried to write about it back then was run out of town. Him you might have heard of, being in the Bay Area and all, Brett Harte. Lynda - fraggle Friday, May 06, 2005 3:47 PM Re: Re: BBC website - Agent Orange and yer folks(whichever nation you belonged to..sorry..don't know) prolly kicked out some other tribe who was there before you... humans are good like that... tho..europeans are damn good at genocide(and by default, the US) alas, folks all over the globe are dang good at murdering one another over tribe, language, skin color, how many stars are on thars....To send an email to - To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Correct peter, I referred to the Gnostic bible because all the sects you mentioned have been partially traced right back to the Gnostics and to another sect in ancient Egypt possibly as far back as 3000 bc don't have any of my references here or I would quote them for you anyway all the best and good to see another historian Craig BBC website - Agent Orange Hi Jo > I thought the 'normal' bible believed in many gods - didn't it say that you should not worship any other gods or something similar, > and good and evil totally divided is a Christian concept too. Not that it matters. Of course, it is also a Christian concept that the > Earth and matter is connected with evil and heaven connected with good etc. The end certainly sounds different. Still, not my > religion, and I'm no expert on it. There are two main "named" gods in the Christian bible - El (the Sumerian chief god) and Yahweh (the Babylonian storm god) - in a rough approximation, El got translated as "Lord", Yahweh as "God" in the KJV, although both are taken to mean the same being. What you're thinking of is the 1st commandment which states "you shall worship no other gods" (or words to that effect), implying that there are plenty of others around. I seem to recall that there is quite a lot of evidence that Asherah was worshipped alongside Yahweh at the Temple of Solomon, and of course, the original "sermon on the mount" speaks of Malkeeth, the Earth Goddess - so there are quite a few different gods mentioned all in all! What Craig mentioned sounded quite like the standard "dualistic" beliefs of people like Cathars, Bogomils, Bulgars, Manichaeans, etc. in which the "good" god was the god of spirit, and the "evil" god was the one who had created the earth and matter. Certain sects therefore believed that it was evil to bring more children into the world... the Bulgars found one particular solution to the problem of having sex without producing children... hence a particular word in modern vocabulary derived from the name of the sect!! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Hi Lynda > Hey, a guys wrote the stories, they were probably doing the guy thing and covering up for Adam and blaming > Eve <g> Actually, no-one quite knows who wrote the stories - the "authors" are simply known as J, P, D and R (and maybe one other depending on which scheme you use) - they could just as easily have been female as male. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 I agree that all these things are terrible, and should never have happened. I don't think there is anything the UK government can do about that, and unfortunately most of them cannot now be rectified by the US government. They could, of course, pay back the money from the Trust Funds, with interest. Jo - Lynda Saturday, May 07, 2005 9:57 PM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange Well, how long is too long? My uncle was killed. That wasn't that long ago. Relatives were still slaves into the early 1900s. Not all that long ago. The law that changed our status from defined as an *animal* to a *human* was in 1928. Again, not that long ago. Children used as test subject for pharmaceutical companies was in the 1990s. Really not that long ago. The theft of millions of dollars from the trust funds was in the mid 1990s. Ten years ago. Our history is not that old. And, it isn't hate, it is anger and I use that anger to make a difference. Lynda - Jo Cwazy Saturday, May 07, 2005 3:57 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange I feel it is not helpful to you or anyone else to carry the hatred for too long. It was not me that invaded your country - it wasn't my parents or their parents or their parents. My family were the serfs in this country not the rulers - we were badly treated, and worthless in the minds of the 'ruling' people. It is the misfortune of the average person to have a government/ruler. You mentioned in another email 'Anglo'Saxons' - well you will gather from this mix of terms that this island had been invaded/conquered several times - and we are now a mix of 'original' peoples. I suppose I could hate the Italians because the Romans invaded us, or the Scandinavians because the Vikings invaded us, or the Germans because they invaded us, but I don't. What does carrying the hatred gain - other than letting our own governments get away with murder, because they engender this feeling of hatred against others - it suits their purpose, and it is sad that otherwise sensible people go along with it. JoTo send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Fine. As long as I stand perfectly still and don't touch anything, I won't destroy the future. Stupid bug! You go squish now! peter hurd May 7, 2005 7:38 AM Re: History, was Re: BBC website - Agent Orange No one can change history.Even with a time machine theres always a flippin paradox! I know, I`ve watched The Simpsons........... And Bugs Bunny is a friend of mine Eating him I'd feel like Frankenstein Eating flesh seems pretty foul to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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