Re:OT equality of women

August 8, 2005

Peter

I hear what you are saying...I've heard this all before in the US.

I just don't believe it. You see, I think there are less women as executives because less women, as compared to men, want that kind of job/responsibility. Women are more attracted, in general, to other kinds of work AND when they start having a family they want to focus, in general, on the home and the children. So they leave when their priorities change while the men stay on.

I think men and women are different and that is why there is the so-called disparity in the work place. I'll give you an example...I have a sister who is a high powered stock broker but every friend she meets is not interested in that kind of work. My sister is a little bit out of the norm in this way and she has the personality that suits that kind of work.

Me, I want to more money and looking for ways to get it...but I haven't chosen the traditional route to get it. The reason is I don't want to. I don't want to be aggressive in the workplace, it does not interest me in the least. Everything I have studied in school, for better or worse, had a lot of women in it...and I think that is fine because that is who I am and that was my interest.

As far as not getting the equivalent in money....I did some researching on that and it's just not true from what I read. In actuality, the men were willing to put in more hours and overtime and thus, in many professions that means more $$$. I think the job title may have been more equal but if you look closely the details are not equal thus making pay disparities.

I totally support any women to do whatever she wants no matter how male dominated...but I believe that women, in general, choose different jobs and careers because of who they are.

It reminds me of my friend who talks about the "dirt floor" in construction (ie the hardest jobs in construction such as digging ditches and the like). He says only men get the privilege of having such jobs...women generally don't go for it and good reason...it's the kind of work women don't really care to do. It's just the truth about things...some jobs are more fit for men and others more fit for women. NOT that I would tell a woman she could not dig ditches or do construction...I am just saying, in general...that is how things naturally fall into place.

Kristina

In a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 8 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 18:13:18 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re: OT equality of womenHi Kristina> As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws> or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the> sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I don't know about the US, but in the UK there is still a clear inequality in terms of employment opportunities. 99% of top business executives are men, there is a disproportionate amount of male to female MPs, councillors, etc., and in general, women are paid something like 10% less than men for equivalent jobs. It's strange, because there is supposed to be equality legislation to prevent this, but it simply doesn't have an effect.Of course, we have improved a lot since the 1970s, and that should be recognised, but there's still a way to go before we have genuine equality in the UK.BBPeter[This message contained attachments]

August 8, 2005

Jonnie

I hear what you are saying.

But I don't think being uncomfortable is the worse thing in the world. Hey, I am introverted, I am extremely uncomfortable in certain social situations but I don't ask for special considerations. The world is not fair to introverts but I just deal with it. Also, it just makes us stronger and better. And if a woman is going to go into a male dominated field that's the price of progress, I think. Everything in life is a risk. Everyone has their barriers or issues they must overcome.

As far as construction goes...there are some female owned plumbing and construction companies in my town.

I am also a business owner. It is true I have been treated strangely by contractors and repairmen because they can't believe I am the one who makes the decisions. But I can deal with it...and in dealing with it I've become stronger and wiser. No one has taken anything away from me except by being surprised at how I look and what I do.

When someone asks for the boss just say "I'M YOUR MAN"!!! and watch them wiggle around and squirm and laugh to yourself...isn't that funny?

In short, who cares what they think? It's an opportunity to show them that women can run businesses, be the boss, and do lots of things.

Also, I love all the benefits of being female...I am willing to put up with these inconveniences for the privilege.

Kristina

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 9 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 16:15:47 -0700 (PDT) Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellensRe: Re: OT equality of womenI have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....Jonnielv2breathe wrote:LyndaI remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.KristinaIn a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - To send an email to -

August 9, 2005

Hi Kristina

Unfortunately I haven't got the time to go into much detail right now, and I would like to have a proper discussion on this, because I think it's a serious issue...

However, to give a brief reply.... I am currently studying for an MA in history. I am the *only* male on the course, with 13 women. When I did my A-Level history a number of years ago, it was two men to 23 women. In terms of shere numbers of people interested, my field of work is hugely dominated by women... yet, the majority of the top lecture and research posts are held by men. So, in my field, the inequality is absolutely blatant.

I also disagree that men and women are fundamentally different. I have no interest whatsoever in running a major corporation, and I'm pretty sure the same is true for my dad, and pretty much all of my male friends. In reality, there are only a small number of *people*, be they men or women, who want these jobs. There is nothing specifically male about wanting these jobs, but there is something specifically male about getting them!

I also just wanted to ask you the question (more, hopefully to give you something to think about than to specifically give an answer) as to where you have gained the ideas that you expressed in your post.

I have come across those arguments before (and used to agree with them).. but then cottoned on to the fact that they were the arguments being expounded by the mainstream media... now, think about who controls the mainstream media....

And just on a slight aside... I can't help chuckling a little to myself... as a man, I think this is the first time I've ever been in a situation of disagreeing on this issue with a woman!!!!

BB

Peter

August 9, 2005

Hi Kristina

I'm going to have to stop in a moment, since it's just gone 2am, but just a couple more posts!!!!

> It's an opportunity to show them that women can run businesses, be the boss, and do lots of things.

If there wasn't inequality, there would be no need to "show them" that women can run a business, because it would be accepted as perfectly natural!

> Also, I love all the benefits of being female...I am willing to put up with these inconveniences for the privilege.

But are you really in a position to make that decision for 51% of the world's population?

BB

Peter

August 9, 2005

I've never been paid less than a man for the same work. In fact, I've been paid more than a few men that had the same job prior to my taking it.

However, that makes me the exception.

However, I'm not above taking advantage of being female and having doors opened and being treated as the resident princess <g>

One can have it both ways <<bg>> And that's my idea of how the world should work.

Lynda, donning her flame proof suit before Peter starts throwing things at her <<eg>>

-

Peter

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:17 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Hi Kristina

I'm going to have to stop in a moment, since it's just gone 2am, but just a couple more posts!!!!

> It's an opportunity to show them that women can run businesses, be the boss, and do lots of things.

If there wasn't inequality, there would be no need to "show them" that women can run a business, because it would be accepted as perfectly natural!

> Also, I love all the benefits of being female...I am willing to put up with these inconveniences for the privilege.

But are you really in a position to make that decision for 51% of the world's population?

BB

Peter

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

August 9, 2005

Hi Lynda

> I've never been paid less than a man for the same work. In fact, I've

> been paid more than a few men that had the same job prior to my taking it.

What surprises me is that you know what everyone else doing the same work

as you is getting paid. Have you always worked in some highly specialised

field?

BB

Peter

August 9, 2005

Hi Lynda

I suspect Peter wouldn't take exception to you liking doors opened - he opens doors for people, men and women. Funnily enough - my daughter gets ratty with my husband when he opens a door for her - says she is quite capable of doing it herself! It is so natural for Colin to open doors for people - it is not an insult or an aspersion on her strength or capability.

Jo

-

Lynda

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:06 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

I've never been paid less than a man for the same work. In fact, I've been paid more than a few men that had the same job prior to my taking it.

However, that makes me the exception.

However, I'm not above taking advantage of being female and having doors opened and being treated as the resident princess <g>

One can have it both ways <<bg>> And that's my idea of how the world should work.

Lynda, donning her flame proof suit before Peter starts throwing things at her <<eg>>

-

Peter

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:17 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Hi Kristina

I'm going to have to stop in a moment, since it's just gone 2am, but just a couple more posts!!!!

> It's an opportunity to show them that women can run businesses, be the boss, and do lots of things.

If there wasn't inequality, there would be no need to "show them" that women can run a business, because it would be accepted as perfectly natural!

> Also, I love all the benefits of being female...I am willing to put up with these inconveniences for the privilege.

But are you really in a position to make that decision for 51% of the world's population?

BB

Peter

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

August 9, 2005

-

<metalscarab

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:01 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

> Hi Lynda

>

> > I've never been paid less than a man for the same work. In fact, I've

> > been paid more than a few men that had the same job prior to my taking

it.

>

> What surprises me is that you know what everyone else doing the same work

> as you is getting paid. Have you always worked in some highly specialised

> field?

>

***Why would you be surprised? I know you are currently in

college/university or whatever y'all call it over there, so maybe you

haven't been out in the work force?

When I shopped for jobs (retired now), I made it a point to know all there

was to know about the job and the company where I proposed working.

As to my specific jobs, management and had access to all their greenline

sheets. That company paid more than their comps which I researched before I

applied. Horse training and made loads more than the advertised rate men

were asking. Fiscal Administrator and wrote my own funding into the grants

and had copies of prior grants and the grants of other non-profs. As

Nursing Services Coordinator it was " unique, " so there is no comparison.

My point was I was the exception to the rule. I, personally, refused to

work for companies that had gender based wages.

Lynda

>

> To send an email to -

>

August 9, 2005

Hi Lynda

> ***Why would you be surprised? I know you are currently in

> college/university or whatever y'all call it over there, so maybe you

> haven't been out in the work force?

I went back to Uni after 9 years as an accountant. The reason I am

surprised is that, as an accountant occassionally dealing with payroll I

was in a position to know what people were earning, and the responsibility

of not discussing that information with anyone. The confidentiality

concerning employees salaries is probably the most important rule of

everyone working in payroll in the UK!

> My point was I was the exception to the rule. I, personally, refused to

> work for companies that had gender based wages.

In the UK it is not normally the basic wages that are unequal (since that

is illegal), but it is the increases to those wages, which are often

nominally based on " merit " , but are actually often based on all sorts of

other issues!

BB

Peter

August 10, 2005

Just a weird observation - when a man goes through a door ahead of me about half of them will then hold it open until I'm inside the room. The other half will let the door slam in my face. Women, on the other hand, will almost always hold the door until I'm close enough to hold it open myself.

I always thought this was bizarre.

Love,

Anna

-

Jo Cwazy

8/9/2005 3:24:02 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Hi Lynda

I suspect Peter wouldn't take exception to you liking doors opened - he opens doors for people, men and women. Funnily enough - my daughter gets ratty with my husband when he opens a door for her - says she is quite capable of doing it herself! It is so natural for Colin to open doors for people - it is not an insult or an aspersion on her strength or capability.

Jo

-

Lynda

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:06 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

I've never been paid less than a man for the same work. In fact, I've been paid more than a few men that had the same job prior to my taking it.

However, that makes me the exception.

However, I'm not above taking advantage of being female and having doors opened and being treated as the resident princess <g>

One can have it both ways <<bg>> And that's my idea of how the world should work.

Lynda, donning her flame proof suit before Peter starts throwing things at her <<eg>>

-

Peter

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:17 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Hi Kristina

I'm going to have to stop in a moment, since it's just gone 2am, but just a couple more posts!!!!

> It's an opportunity to show them that women can run businesses, be the boss, and do lots of things.

If there wasn't inequality, there would be no need to "show them" that women can run a business, because it would be accepted as perfectly natural!

> Also, I love all the benefits of being female...I am willing to put up with these inconveniences for the privilege.

But are you really in a position to make that decision for 51% of the world's population?

BB

Peter

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

August 10, 2005

I like doors being opened for me by anyone, but that is only because

I will open them too.

To me that is being polite. And if a gentleman (or woman) wants to

open a door for me, I thank them.

BB

Nikki

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> Hi Lynda

>

> I suspect Peter wouldn't take exception to you liking doors

opened - he opens doors for people, men and women. Funnily enough -

my daughter gets ratty with my husband when he opens a door for her -

says she is quite capable of doing it herself! It is so natural

for Colin to open doors for people - it is not an insult or an

aspersion on her strength or capability.

>

> Jo

August 10, 2005

That's strange. I haven't really noticed differences here - I shall have to be more observant.

Jo

-

Anna Blaine

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:33 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Just a weird observation - when a man goes through a door ahead of me about half of them will then hold it open until I'm inside the room. The other half will let the door slam in my face. Women, on the other hand, will almost always hold the door until I'm close enough to hold it open myself.

I always thought this was bizarre.

Love,

Anna

-

Jo Cwazy

8/9/2005 3:24:02 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Hi Lynda

I suspect Peter wouldn't take exception to you liking doors opened - he opens doors for people, men and women. Funnily enough - my daughter gets ratty with my husband when he opens a door for her - says she is quite capable of doing it herself! It is so natural for Colin to open doors for people - it is not an insult or an aspersion on her strength or capability.

Jo

-

Lynda

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:06 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

I've never been paid less than a man for the same work. In fact, I've been paid more than a few men that had the same job prior to my taking it.

However, that makes me the exception.

However, I'm not above taking advantage of being female and having doors opened and being treated as the resident princess <g>

One can have it both ways <<bg>> And that's my idea of how the world should work.

Lynda, donning her flame proof suit before Peter starts throwing things at her <<eg>>

-

Peter

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:17 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women

Hi Kristina

I'm going to have to stop in a moment, since it's just gone 2am, but just a couple more posts!!!!

> It's an opportunity to show them that women can run businesses, be the boss, and do lots of things.

If there wasn't inequality, there would be no need to "show them" that women can run a business, because it would be accepted as perfectly natural!

> Also, I love all the benefits of being female...I am willing to put up with these inconveniences for the privilege.

But are you really in a position to make that decision for 51% of the world's population?

BB

Peter

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

August 10, 2005

That's right for me too. It is good to be polite and helpful and people can

smile too, or even chat!

Jo

> I like doors being opened for me by anyone, but that is only because

> I will open them too.

>

> To me that is being polite. And if a gentleman (or woman) wants to

> open a door for me, I thank them.

>

> BB

> Nikki

August 11, 2005

You bring up a good point Jo. Hardly anyone ever smiles anymore much

less says hello.

When walking down the street if you catch someone's eye they usually

put their heads down or look away quickly.

I try my best to smile at everyone passing by. I figure they're

contagious and hopefully they will pass it on to the next person

that they see.

BB

Nikki

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> That's right for me too. It is good to be polite and helpful and

people can

> smile too, or even chat!

>

> Jo

>

August 11, 2005

That's what's sooooo nice about living out in the sticks! A couple of the

old folks around here ride around town (using the state highway, our only

road) on those little electric wheelchairs. One has a couple of chihuahuas

that have their own basket on the back. People wave as you go by, everyone

gets a smile and a hello in the stores, the librarian doesn't ask for your

card, just knows who you are and puts in your stuff on the computer.

In fact, a lot of " real " northern CA cities are that way. Even the " bigger "

cities. Well, all things being relative when the biggest city in a county

(the size of two Delewares and one Rhode Island) is a whole 28,000.

Lynda

-

earthstrm <nikkimack

Thursday, August 11, 2005 5:00 AM

Re:OT equality of women

> You bring up a good point Jo. Hardly anyone ever smiles anymore much

> less says hello.

>

> When walking down the street if you catch someone's eye they usually

> put their heads down or look away quickly.

>

> I try my best to smile at everyone passing by. I figure they're

> contagious and hopefully they will pass it on to the next person

> that they see.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > That's right for me too. It is good to be polite and helpful and

> people can

> > smile too, or even chat!

> >

> > Jo

> >

To send an email to -

>

August 11, 2005

I have found that in towns particularly. In the villages most people

smile and say hello, but then it would be difficult to pretend you

were looking at something interesting in that situation.

BB

Jo

, " earthstrm " <nikkimack@m...> wrote:

> You bring up a good point Jo. Hardly anyone ever smiles anymore

much

> less says hello.

>

> When walking down the street if you catch someone's eye they

usually

> put their heads down or look away quickly.

>

> I try my best to smile at everyone passing by. I figure they're

> contagious and hopefully they will pass it on to the next person

> that they see.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...>

wrote:

> > That's right for me too. It is good to be polite and helpful and

> people can

> > smile too, or even chat!

> >

> > Jo

> >

August 11, 2005

we don't have villages on this side of the pond really....

heartwerk <heartwork

Aug 11, 2005 8:22 AM

Re:OT equality of women

I have found that in towns particularly. In the villages most people

smile and say hello, but then it would be difficult to pretend you

were looking at something interesting in that situation.

BB

Jo

, " earthstrm " <nikkimack@m...> wrote:

> You bring up a good point Jo. Hardly anyone ever smiles anymore

much

> less says hello.

>

> When walking down the street if you catch someone's eye they

usually

> put their heads down or look away quickly.

>

> I try my best to smile at everyone passing by. I figure they're

> contagious and hopefully they will pass it on to the next person

> that they see.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...>

wrote:

> > That's right for me too. It is good to be polite and helpful and

> people can

> > smile too, or even chat!

> >

> > Jo

> >

To send an email to -

August 11, 2005

yer scarin me lynda

28,000.......

thats not a city!

thats a hacienda....

Lynda <lurine

Aug 11, 2005 6:46 AM