Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

[Guest guest]

One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!

 

I remember one architect I spoke to. He said he one time worked in elementary school...and was shunned often because it is very female and cliquish. Unless you were a feminine man, you were NOT let in the group at all. Can you imagine big construction guys wanting to be kindergarten teachers? That wouldn't be easy, either.

 

Or what about nannies? Hairstylists (if you aren't gay)? And certainly, no matter how cute men may make themselves, they will no way get a lot of the food service jobs (waitressing) and sometimes great money because they aren't female. Yes, many cocktail waittressed and food servers make great money.

 

And, of course, no woman I know of want to pass the "dirt floor" and dig ditches...that is man's work.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Jonnie Hellens Sent: 8/8/2005 5:15:50 PM Re: Re: OT equality of womenI have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....Jonnielv2breathe wrote:LyndaI remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.KristinaIn a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Kristina

 

I think this will have to be my last post for today!!!

 

> One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!

 

That is very true, but the jobs that men do not generally feel "comfortable" in applying for are not usually very well paid, even though they are often the most important in society. Isn't it interesting that teaching and nursing, professions which have generally been associated with women, are some of the worst paid professions. But this just highlights that inequality exists - in a few cases this impacts negatively on individuals who happen to be men, far more often it impacts negatively on individuals who happen to be women.

 

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia... which really is a rather crazy way to run a society when you think about it. I mean, isn't it strange that we don't focus on something more immediately visible like hair colour? It would certainly seem strange to most of us if we just tilted this discussion slightly, and you were saying things like "I know someone with dark hair who runs their own business very successfully", or "people with red hair just aren't interested in the same jobs as people with blonde hair, so that's why so few company directors have red hair".

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

True, true. The assumptions of the way people behave. For instance, my hubby smiling is such a rare thing that we all make a big deal about it. He just doesn't. He's also very well liked and respected. However, you wouldn't believe how many times people comment that *I* should smile more. I'm busy pulling a huge order, my hubby is as usual chatting with the person and the person looks at me and says 'why aren't you smiling?' Huh? I've just hauled 5 cases of car chargers, leather cases, holsters and home chargers up to the front and you think I should and look perdy just cuz I'm female?

 

But that also brings up many other expectations too, like what's expected in different cultures. Some cultures it's rude to shake hands, in other cultures it's expected, that sort of stuff. There are people of a certain nationality who frequent my store. They barge to the front of the line and bark out what they want, expecting it to be brought to them right away. Before a riot starts, I firmly tell them that I will be happy to grab that for them after I've served the customers in front of them. They must be satisfied because they all keep referring their friends. I'm guessing that is just the way it's done in their country.Peter <metalscarab wrote:

 

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia... which really is a rather crazy way to run a society when you think about it. I mean, isn't it strange that we don't focus on something more immediately visible like hair colour? It would certainly seem strange to most of us if we just tilted this discussion slightly, and you were saying things like "I know someone with dark hair who runs their own business very successfully", or "people with red hair just aren't interested in the same jobs as people with blonde hair, so that's why so few company directors have red hair".

 

BB

PeterJonnie

Start your day with - make it your home page

[Guest guest]

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia...

 

Hi peter,

 

this is so true, it is sickening as it happens from birth.

 

when my son was born, every single gift item of clothing was blue! I used to wrap him around in a pink blanket and would get tons of comments from my mom, my family, and strangers would say "she is so cute"

 

my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I get from people calling her a "She" and then when I tell them he is a boy they say "haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut yet?

 

Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is gourgeous and why should I cut it!

At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his hair? Constantly!

 

When walking into Toys R Us, this store is Literally separated into two divisions, Everythink pink on one side for the girls,

and Everything Blue on the other for boys. On the pink side there are dolls, vacumms, kitchens. On the blue side their are trains, cars, superheros etc.

 

My boys like to play with Dolls, because I kept some of my child hood dolls and they like to play pretend along with their teddy bears. Well, everytime I have a kid over that comes from a "mainstream" kind of family, my kids get teased.

 

There is just no tolerance.

A little girl in his school spread a rumor in the cafeteria about how he was playing with girl toys and he got teased in the cafeteria incesantly. these kids are 5 and 6 !!!

From a store he picked out a strawberry shortcake coloring book (as a reward for good behaviour), When other kids found this out, (he told them) it was the end of the world!

 

We bought a used bike for 20 dollars at a garage sale, the bike happened to be purple. Everytime some neighborhood boys came along the sidewalk they made sure to tease him because he was riding a "girl bike". My son was in tears and refuses to ride it any more.

 

I also don't think that it is fair how girls are more acepted playing trains and cars are called Tomboys in a cute way, but Boys who play with girl toys are not so accepted.

 

another double standard is when women are seen as sensual, open minded, coquette, experimental when they sleep with other women. But when men sleep with another man (even one time) are automatically just gay.

 

I could go on and on.

 

These kids get these ideas from their parents. When my kids ask me about these issues, my reply to them is;

"Toys are for everyone, for children and for everyone who wants to play with them. Why should Only Girls or Only Boys have all the fun with one toy"

They liked this response and agreed.

 

-anouk

[Guest guest]

Where in the world do you live? Men are waiters? Hells bells, there are tons of men making tons of money working as waiters.

 

Males not being school teachers? Rot, someone was whining and that's where he placed the blame. I've worked at many a school and done grant planning for plenty more. 37% of teachers are male. Men CHOOSE not to teach because of the pay. They can make more working construction, or getting into the corporate world. It takes less time academically and most men don't see teaching as providing enough money to raise a family. And those are the reasons men gave when surveyed by the NEA.

 

Lynda

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:13 PM

Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!

 

I remember one architect I spoke to. He said he one time worked in elementary school...and was shunned often because it is very female and cliquish. Unless you were a feminine man, you were NOT let in the group at all. Can you imagine big construction guys wanting to be kindergarten teachers? That wouldn't be easy, either.

 

Or what about nannies? Hairstylists (if you aren't gay)? And certainly, no matter how cute men may make themselves, they will no way get a lot of the food service jobs (waitressing) and sometimes great money because they aren't female. Yes, many cocktail waittressed and food servers make great money.

 

And, of course, no woman I know of want to pass the "dirt floor" and dig ditches...that is man's work.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Jonnie Hellens Sent: 8/8/2005 5:15:50 PM Re: Re: OT equality of womenI have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....Jonnielv2breathe wrote:LyndaI remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.KristinaIn a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie To send an email to -

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

[Guest guest]

I was just channel surfing and was lucky enough to find a beauty pageant. Teenage girls parading around in pastel bikinis and stilettos on a major network during primetime. Oh yeah, women have definitely achieved equality.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

zurumato

 

8/8/2005 9:14:47 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia...

 

Hi peter,

 

this is so true, it is sickening as it happens from birth.

 

when my son was born, every single gift item of clothing was blue! I used to wrap him around in a pink blanket and would get tons of comments from my mom, my family, and strangers would say "she is so cute"

 

my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I get from people calling her a "She" and then when I tell them he is a boy they say "haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut yet?

 

Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is gourgeous and why should I cut it!

At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his hair? Constantly!

 

When walking into Toys R Us, this store is Literally separated into two divisions, Everythink pink on one side for the girls,

and Everything Blue on the other for boys. On the pink side there are dolls, vacumms, kitchens. On the blue side their are trains, cars, superheros etc.

 

My boys like to play with Dolls, because I kept some of my child hood dolls and they like to play pretend along with their teddy bears. Well, everytime I have a kid over that comes from a "mainstream" kind of family, my kids get teased.

 

There is just no tolerance.

A little girl in his school spread a rumor in the cafeteria about how he was playing with girl toys and he got teased in the cafeteria incesantly. these kids are 5 and 6 !!!

From a store he picked out a strawberry shortcake coloring book (as a reward for good behaviour), When other kids found this out, (he told them) it was the end of the world!

 

We bought a used bike for 20 dollars at a garage sale, the bike happened to be purple. Everytime some neighborhood boys came along the sidewalk they made sure to tease him because he was riding a "girl bike". My son was in tears and refuses to ride it any more.

 

I also don't think that it is fair how girls are more acepted playing trains and cars are called Tomboys in a cute way, but Boys who play with girl toys are not so accepted.

 

another double standard is when women are seen as sensual, open minded, coquette, experimental when they sleep with other women. But when men sleep with another man (even one time) are automatically just gay.

 

I could go on and on.

 

These kids get these ideas from their parents. When my kids ask me about these issues, my reply to them is;

"Toys are for everyone, for children and for everyone who wants to play with them. Why should Only Girls or Only Boys have all the fun with one toy"

They liked this response and agreed.

 

-anouk

[Guest guest]

, lv2breathe@a... wrote:

 

Kristina

 

I find your comment offensive. Not all hairstylists are gay and not

all gay people are hairstylists. Exactly what point were you trying

to make?

 

Jo

 

 

> Hairstylists (if you aren't gay)?

[Guest guest]

I'm coming to the conclusion, from what you say, that England and America have far more differences than I ever imagined. It seems to be totally alien!

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:13 AM

Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!

 

I remember one architect I spoke to. He said he one time worked in elementary school...and was shunned often because it is very female and cliquish. Unless you were a feminine man, you were NOT let in the group at all. Can you imagine big construction guys wanting to be kindergarten teachers? That wouldn't be easy, either.

 

Or what about nannies? Hairstylists (if you aren't gay)? And certainly, no matter how cute men may make themselves, they will no way get a lot of the food service jobs (waitressing) and sometimes great money because they aren't female. Yes, many cocktail waittressed and food servers make great money.

 

And, of course, no woman I know of want to pass the "dirt floor" and dig ditches...that is man's work.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Jonnie Hellens Sent: 8/8/2005 5:15:50 PM Re: Re: OT equality of womenI have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....Jonnielv2breathe wrote:LyndaI remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.KristinaIn a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie To send an email to -

 

 

[Guest guest]

Very well put Peter. My boss has mousy brown hair, and his boss has medium brown hair, and her boss has black hair. Obviously black-haired people find it easier to get the best jobs.

 

BBJo

 

-

Peter

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:25 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

Hi Kristina

 

I think this will have to be my last post for today!!!

 

> One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!

 

That is very true, but the jobs that men do not generally feel "comfortable" in applying for are not usually very well paid, even though they are often the most important in society. Isn't it interesting that teaching and nursing, professions which have generally been associated with women, are some of the worst paid professions. But this just highlights that inequality exists - in a few cases this impacts negatively on individuals who happen to be men, far more often it impacts negatively on individuals who happen to be women.

 

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia... which really is a rather crazy way to run a society when you think about it. I mean, isn't it strange that we don't focus on something more immediately visible like hair colour? It would certainly seem strange to most of us if we just tilted this discussion slightly, and you were saying things like "I know someone with dark hair who runs their own business very successfully", or "people with red hair just aren't interested in the same jobs as people with blonde hair, so that's why so few company directors have red hair".

 

BB

Peter

[Guest guest]

HI Anouk

 

My two liked the same sort of toys. My daughter's favourite toys when she was 4 and 5 were a farm set that Colin made for her, soft toys and a train set. The only time she played with dolls was when her schoolfriends did - because that's what they did. My son liked scalextric, and soft toys. When he started school he played with action men etc. because that's what the others did.

 

Both my children liked digging holes in the garden for pretend games, making boats, trains etc. out of chairs, sheets and other items, the garden swing, riding bikes, skating, badminton, table tennis, playing with each others toys etc.

 

The distinctions between boys and girls toys were only evident when they mixed with other children.

 

Jo

 

-

zurumato

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:18 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia...

 

Hi peter,

 

this is so true, it is sickening as it happens from birth.

 

when my son was born, every single gift item of clothing was blue! I used to wrap him around in a pink blanket and would get tons of comments from my mom, my family, and strangers would say "she is so cute"

 

my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I get from people calling her a "She" and then when I tell them he is a boy they say "haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut yet?

 

Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is gourgeous and why should I cut it!

At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his hair? Constantly!

 

When walking into Toys R Us, this store is Literally separated into two divisions, Everythink pink on one side for the girls,

and Everything Blue on the other for boys. On the pink side there are dolls, vacumms, kitchens. On the blue side their are trains, cars, superheros etc.

 

My boys like to play with Dolls, because I kept some of my child hood dolls and they like to play pretend along with their teddy bears. Well, everytime I have a kid over that comes from a "mainstream" kind of family, my kids get teased.

 

There is just no tolerance.

A little girl in his school spread a rumor in the cafeteria about how he was playing with girl toys and he got teased in the cafeteria incesantly. these kids are 5 and 6 !!!

From a store he picked out a strawberry shortcake coloring book (as a reward for good behaviour), When other kids found this out, (he told them) it was the end of the world!

 

We bought a used bike for 20 dollars at a garage sale, the bike happened to be purple. Everytime some neighborhood boys came along the sidewalk they made sure to tease him because he was riding a "girl bike". My son was in tears and refuses to ride it any more.

 

I also don't think that it is fair how girls are more acepted playing trains and cars are called Tomboys in a cute way, but Boys who play with girl toys are not so accepted.

 

another double standard is when women are seen as sensual, open minded, coquette, experimental when they sleep with other women. But when men sleep with another man (even one time) are automatically just gay.

 

I could go on and on.

 

These kids get these ideas from their parents. When my kids ask me about these issues, my reply to them is;

"Toys are for everyone, for children and for everyone who wants to play with them. Why should Only Girls or Only Boys have all the fun with one toy"

They liked this response and agreed.

 

-anouk

[Guest guest]

The same is true here as far as I know. I am certain there are lots of men waiters here - probably more than women waiters.

 

Jo

 

-

Lynda

Tuesday, August 09, 2005 5:03 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

Where in the world do you live? Men are waiters? Hells bells, there are tons of men making tons of money working as waiters.

 

Males not being school teachers? Rot, someone was whining and that's where he placed the blame. I've worked at many a school and done grant planning for plenty more. 37% of teachers are male. Men CHOOSE not to teach because of the pay. They can make more working construction, or getting into the corporate world. It takes less time academically and most men don't see teaching as providing enough money to raise a family. And those are the reasons men gave when surveyed by the NEA.

 

Lynda

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Monday, August 08, 2005 6:13 PM

Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!

 

I remember one architect I spoke to. He said he one time worked in elementary school...and was shunned often because it is very female and cliquish. Unless you were a feminine man, you were NOT let in the group at all. Can you imagine big construction guys wanting to be kindergarten teachers? That wouldn't be easy, either.

 

Or what about nannies? Hairstylists (if you aren't gay)? And certainly, no matter how cute men may make themselves, they will no way get a lot of the food service jobs (waitressing) and sometimes great money because they aren't female. Yes, many cocktail waittressed and food servers make great money.

 

And, of course, no woman I know of want to pass the "dirt floor" and dig ditches...that is man's work.

 

Kristina

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Jonnie Hellens Sent: 8/8/2005 5:15:50 PM Re: Re: OT equality of womenI have to disagree. I used to think I could do anything a man could do. I have since found out that isn't so. Not because I don't want to do it, not because I can't do it, but because many people aren't comfortable with it. I once told my ex-husband (who wasn't my ex at the time) that I was interested in going out for a position at his construction company. He told me that I wouldn't be allowed to work the job. If for some strange reason I actually got the job, the men would make sure it was so difficult that I would leave and they would do whatever necessary to make that happen. Now-a-day, even tho I own my own business, there's no end of people who come in wanting to talk to the boss. When I explain that I am she, they say "no, the guy." When my hubby lost his job last year, it was assumed right away that he was now the boss, I guess just because he has the right genitalia to run a business and I don't?It doesn't stop there, if my house is a mess, does anyone blame the man? No, it's the women's fault that it's not cleaned up. I guess I've had some influence on my son tho. My mother-in-law told my son to marry some nice Finnish girl who would wait on him hand and foot (I wish I knew that before I married him!) and now she's trying to brainwash my son about the same thing. He told her "Why would I want that?" She explained he would just have to lie back and she'ld take care of everything, he could just enjoy life. He told her that wasn't very fair to the woman and also, what kind of team would they be if he just sat around and let her do everything as well as work. He was pretty bent out of shape about it. There is hope....Jonnielv2breathe wrote:LyndaI remember that whole brou haha with the Harvard pres and I don't think that is what he was saying at all.He was not saying that women could not cut it in male dominated studies...he just said that women, in general, are not attracted to such fields as men are. And that's the truth! If women wanted to do it, they surely could...he was speaking about the obvious differences in interests in men and women.KristinaIn a message dated 8/8/05 11:16:04 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:Message: 16 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 10:50:42 -0700 "Lynda" <lurineRe: Re: OT equality of womenI think it is great that you *feel* equal, however, in the workplace and government you are not equal.Pay is unequal. You WILL be discriminated against by most companies. If there are two equal applications OR even close to equal with you the female having a very slight edge, you, the female, will not in most cases get the job. After all, you still have better things to do like staying home and taking care of the spouse and children.Wages for women are 68 cents for every dollar a white male makes. 58 cents if you are First Nations. There are over 7,000 elective offices in the U.S. (state level and Congress). Of those, 1355 are held by white women, 215 by African-American women, 58 by Hispanic women and 23 by Asian American women. NONE are held by First Nations women! (From the Status on Women in America report)Why even the prez at Harvard says women just can't cut it and that's why they don't succeed.Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Sunday, August 07, 2005 7:48 PM Re: OT equality of women Peter and Lynda I was just curious...both you feel women are not equal, I am assuming, in the US and/or UK. As a female in the US I don't feel unequal at all. I feel I can go as high as my brains and talents will take me. I don't feel any laws or the government is against me in anyway. Of all the problems in the world this is something I have never worried about...as the sisters ahead of me have taken care of it (and I am grateful). I am wondering why you say this. What is unequal??? Kristina In a message dated 8/7/05 5:28:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Do women not have the vote in the US, then? They do in every other Western country. I agree about equality, and there is still a strong movement actively campaigning to change that - but that seems irrelevant to the fact that women have the vote! To send an email to - Jonnie To send an email to -

 

 

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

 

 

Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05

[Guest guest]

Hi Anouk,

 

We have the same problem. Zak has georgous long blonde hair and every

one always thinks he's a girl.

 

When they say she, we just say he or his name in our next sentence.

Sometimes they apologize and sometimes they just keep the conversation

going. Either way we just smile and let it go.

 

But the family, they always want his hair cut too!

 

Nikki

 

, " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...>

wrote:

>

> my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I

get from people calling her a " She " and then when I tell them he is

a boy they say " haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut

yet?

>

> Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is

gourgeous and why should I cut it!

> At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his

hair? Constantly!

>

>

> -anouk

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

I was much the same way when it came to toys. It did not matter much

what I played with from barbie dolls to catching garter snakes in

the prarie.

 

My Father raised me since I was 5 so I had a huge male influence,

but my aunt and 3 female cousins lived one door away so I had a bit

of female influence as well.

 

My one cuz (female) who is also my best friend joined me in

everything from dress up to kamikaze skateboarding. It was always

outside influences that designated gender games as we couldn't care

less what " type " of games we played as long as we had fun.

 

BB

Nikki

 

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> HI Anouk

>

> My two liked the same sort of toys. My daughter's favourite toys

when she was 4 and 5 were a farm set that Colin made for her, soft

toys and a train set. The only time she played with dolls was when

her schoolfriends did - because that's what they did. My son liked

scalextric, and soft toys. When he started school he played with

action men etc. because that's what the others did.

>

> Both my children liked digging holes in the garden for pretend

games, making boats, trains etc. out of chairs, sheets and other

items, the garden swing, riding bikes, skating, badminton, table

tennis, playing with each others toys etc.

>

> The distinctions between boys and girls toys were only evident

when they mixed with other children.

>

> Jo

[Guest guest]

I suppose it's the age difference, but my family thought that Peter's hair

should be allowed to grow. It was quite long anyway - 70s style.

 

Jo

 

> Hi Anouk,

>

> We have the same problem. Zak has georgous long blonde hair and every

> one always thinks he's a girl.

>

> When they say she, we just say he or his name in our next sentence.

> Sometimes they apologize and sometimes they just keep the conversation

> going. Either way we just smile and let it go.

>

> But the family, they always want his hair cut too!

>

> Nikki

>

> , " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...>

> wrote:

> >

> > my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I

> get from people calling her a " She " and then when I tell them he is

> a boy they say " haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut

> yet?

> >

> > Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is

> gourgeous and why should I cut it!

> > At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his

> hair? Constantly!

> >

> >

> > -anouk

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Nikki

 

I had my mum and dad, and my nan (grandmother) lived with us because she had

a damaged heart and couldn't do a lot, and my uncle. I did different things

with all of them - sewing, knitting and helping with housework with my mum,

woodwork with my dad, gardening with my uncle and preparing all the veggies

from the garden with my nan, cos she could do that. Admittedly, when I was

a kid male and female stereotypes were very definite, but most of the kids

in my area were boys, so I played with the boys - usually cricket and catch,

and tag etc. or off on our bikes. Sometimes we were naughty of course, and

damned the streams in the farms etc.

 

I think it is natural to like to try everything.

 

Jo

 

-

" earthstrm " <nikkimack

 

Wednesday, August 10, 2005 1:50 PM

Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

> Hi Jo

>

> I was much the same way when it came to toys. It did not matter much

> what I played with from barbie dolls to catching garter snakes in

> the prarie.

>

> My Father raised me since I was 5 so I had a huge male influence,

> but my aunt and 3 female cousins lived one door away so I had a bit

> of female influence as well.

>

> My one cuz (female) who is also my best friend joined me in

> everything from dress up to kamikaze skateboarding. It was always

> outside influences that designated gender games as we couldn't care

> less what " type " of games we played as long as we had fun.

>

> BB

> Nikki

>

> , " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > HI Anouk

> >

> > My two liked the same sort of toys. My daughter's favourite toys

> when she was 4 and 5 were a farm set that Colin made for her, soft

> toys and a train set. The only time she played with dolls was when

> her schoolfriends did - because that's what they did. My son liked

> scalextric, and soft toys. When he started school he played with

> action men etc. because that's what the others did.

> >

> > Both my children liked digging holes in the garden for pretend

> games, making boats, trains etc. out of chairs, sheets and other

> items, the garden swing, riding bikes, skating, badminton, table

> tennis, playing with each others toys etc.

> >

> > The distinctions between boys and girls toys were only evident

> when they mixed with other children.

> >

> > Jo

>

To send an email to -

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jo

 

I agree with you. It's natural and healthy too. And I think it helps

kids grow up to be more well rounded than those who are stuck in

sterotypical roles.

 

BB

Nikki

 

, " Jo Cwazy " <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> Hi Nikki

>

> I had my mum and dad, and my nan (grandmother) lived with us

because she had

> a damaged heart and couldn't do a lot, and my uncle. I did

different things

> with all of them - sewing, knitting and helping with housework

with my mum,

> woodwork with my dad, gardening with my uncle and preparing all

the veggies

> from the garden with my nan, cos she could do that. Admittedly,

when I was

> a kid male and female stereotypes were very definite, but most of

the kids

> in my area were boys, so I played with the boys - usually cricket

and catch,

> and tag etc. or off on our bikes. Sometimes we were naughty of

course, and

> damned the streams in the farms etc.

>

> I think it is natural to like to try everything.

>

> Jo

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 8/8/05 10:26:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 7 Tue, 9 Aug 2005 02:25:17 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughtsHi KristinaI think this will have to be my last post for today!!!> One thing to think about here is that women may not feel as free to do certain jobs, but neither are men!That is very true, but the jobs that men do not generally feel "comfortable" in applying for are not usually very well paid, even though they are often the most important in society. Isn't it interesting that teaching and nursing, professions which have generally been associated with women, are some of the worst paid professions. But this just highlights that inequality exists - in a few cases this impacts negatively on individuals who happen to be men, far more often it impacts negatively on individuals who happen to be women.

Hey, in my world teaching, at least with my local school is a very good job. You get off early, have excellent benefits, and get paid MORE than a living wage. To me it's great money. Really poorly paid jobs are like working at the fabric store for 7 bucks and hour with no job security, no creativity, and not respect. So, no I don't agree with that at all.

 

Plus, nothing is worse than a ditch digger...which is the "dirt floor" for men!

 

I think women actually move more fluidly through society then men to.

Here, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia... which really is a rather crazy way to run a society when you think about it. I mean, isn't it strange that we don't focus on something more immediately visible like hair colour? It would certainly seem strange to most of us if we just tilted this discussion slightly, and you were saying things like "I know someone with dark hair who runs their own business very successfully", or "people with red hair just aren't interested in the same jobs as people with blonde hair, so that's why so few company directors have red hair".

You used a word I never used... PRESSURE. I do not advocate pressuring anyone to be anything. When I have a child, I will allow that child to express her or himself as he wants (as long as it doesn't hurt others of course). I am not speaking of any kind of pressure. I am saying that if you allow a girl and boy to naturally follow their inner selves...you will see that the boy usually chooses "boyness" and the girl wants to be a girl.

BBPeter

 

 

[Guest guest]

I don't think we will ever stop beauty pageants of fashion. It's the nature of our being and cultures to revere beauty. It's just the way it is. A women have long been an object of that admiration.

 

Would you really want it another way? If you are straight....would you prefer that your boyfriend does not admire you at all in this way to be "equal"?

 

My point is...we will never be looked upon exactly the same as men so why not use our gifts to the best of our ability? We have enough rights...at least in the West to do much with our lives. Instead of getting angry about beauty pageants I'd rather do something else...as I don't feel beauty pageants are threat to my well-being. Pornography, yes, beauty pageants, no.

 

Kristina

 

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 10:26:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 13 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:04:50 -0600 "Anna Blaine" <anna333Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughtsI was just channel surfing and was lucky enough to find a beauty pageant. Teenage girls parading around in pastel bikinis and stilettos on a major network during primetime. Oh yeah, women have definitely achieved equality.Love,Anna- zurumato Sent: 8/8/2005 9:14:47 PM Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughtsHere, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia... Hi peter,this is so true, it is sickening as it happens from birth. when my son was born, every single gift item of clothing was blue! I used to wrap him around in a pink blanket and would get tons of comments from my mom, my family, and strangers would say "she is so cute"my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I get from people calling her a "She" and then when I tell them he is a boy they say "haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut yet? Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is gourgeous and why should I cut it!At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his hair? Constantly!When walking into Toys R Us, this store is Literally separated into two divisions, Everythink pink on one side for the girls, and Everything Blue on the other for boys. On the pink side there are dolls, vacumms, kitchens. On the blue side their are trains, cars, superheros etc. My boys like to play with Dolls, because I kept some of my child hood dolls and they like to play pretend along with their teddy bears. Well, everytime I have a kid over that comes from a "mainstream" kind of family, my kids get teased. There is just no tolerance. A little girl in his school spread a rumor in the cafeteria about how he was playing with girl toys and he got teased in the cafeteria incesantly. these kids are 5 and 6 !!!From a store he picked out a strawberry shortcake coloring book (as a reward for good behaviour), When other kids found this out, (he told them) it was the end of the world!We bought a used bike for 20 dollars at a garage sale, the bike happened to be purple. Everytime some neighborhood boys came along the sidewalk they made sure to tease him because he was riding a "girl bike". My son was in tears and refuses to ride it any more. I also don't think that it is fair how girls are more acepted playing trains and cars are called Tomboys in a cute way, but Boys who play with girl toys are not so accepted. another double standard is when women are seen as sensual, open minded, coquette, experimental when they sleep with other women. But when men sleep with another man (even one time) are automatically just gay. I could go on and on. These kids get these ideas from their parents. When my kids ask me about these issues, my reply to them is;"Toys are for everyone, for children and for everyone who wants to play with them. Why should Only Girls or Only Boys have all the fun with one toy"They liked this response and agreed. -anouk

 

 

[Guest guest]

Too true. My son has found that he really enjoys cooking. Of course we watched Chef Ramsey on Hell's Kitchen and that might have helped him feel it was ok for him to cook.earthstrm <nikkimack wrote:

Hi JoI agree with you. It's natural and healthy too. And I think it helps kids grow up to be more well rounded than those who are stuck in sterotypical roles.BBNikki , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> Hi Nikki> > I had my mum and dad, and my nan (grandmother) lived with us because she had> a damaged heart and couldn't do a lot, and my uncle. I did different things> with all of them - sewing, knitting and helping with housework with my mum,> woodwork with my dad, gardening with my uncle and preparing all the veggies> from the garden with my nan, cos she could do that. Admittedly, when I was> a kid male and female stereotypes were very definite, but most of the kids> in my area were boys, so I played with the

boys - usually cricket and catch,> and tag etc. or off on our bikes. Sometimes we were naughty of course, and> damned the streams in the farms etc.> > I think it is natural to like to try everything.> > Jo> Jonnie

[Guest guest]

I never use the word normally, but I 'hate' Gordon Ramsay. He is such a pig (sorry real pigs!). He is forever putting non-veggie items into what he says is veggie and feeding it to vegetarians and then laughing about it. Horrible, despicable man.

 

Jo

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

Thursday, August 11, 2005 6:30 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

Too true. My son has found that he really enjoys cooking. Of course we watched Chef Ramsey on Hell's Kitchen and that might have helped him feel it was ok for him to cook.earthstrm <nikkimack wrote: Hi JoI agree with you. It's natural and healthy too. And I think it helps kids grow up to be more well rounded than those who are stuck in sterotypical roles.BBNikki , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> Hi Nikki> > I had my mum and dad, and my nan (grandmother) lived with us because she had> a damaged heart and couldn't do a lot, and my uncle. I did different things> with all of them - sewing, knitting and helping with housework with my mum,> woodwork with my dad, gardening with my uncle and preparing all the veggies> from the garden with my nan, cos she could do that. Admittedly, when I was> a kid male and female stereotypes were very definite, but most of the kids> in my area were boys, so I played with the boys - usually cricket and catch,> and tag etc. or off on our bikes. Sometimes we were naughty of course, and> damned the streams in the farms etc.> > I think it is natural to like to try everything.> > Jo> Jonnie

 

[Guest guest]

Chef Ramsey? I"ve got to wonder about the cooking abilites of guy who comes from the country that gave us haggis.

 

Reminds me of a scarring incident from my childhood. When I was in the first grade my teacher decided to teach us all how to bake something. I don't remember what, but it involved adding a teaspoon of cinnamon. She handed me the teaspoon and bottle of cinnamon and told me to measure it out. Now keep in mind I was six and my mother had never let me cook anything before because I couldn't reach the stove yet. I opened up the sprinkle portion of the bottle instead of the pour section and tried sprinkling a teaspoon of cinnanon into the measuring spoon. The teacher ripped both out of my hands says "you know, most world famous chefs are men" and hands the cinnamon to my arch-rival Avinash (he was the only kid was ever able to beat me at spelling bees.)

 

B*tch.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

 

8/11/2005 11:30:45 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

Too true. My son has found that he really enjoys cooking. Of course we watched Chef Ramsey on Hell's Kitchen and that might have helped him feel it was ok for him to cook.earthstrm <nikkimack wrote: Hi JoI agree with you. It's natural and healthy too. And I think it helps kids grow up to be more well rounded than those who are stuck in sterotypical roles.BBNikki , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> Hi Nikki> > I had my mum and dad, and my nan (grandmother) lived with us because she had> a damaged heart and couldn't do a lot, and my uncle. I did different things> with all of them - sewing, knitting and helping with housework with my mum,> woodwork with my dad, gardening with my uncle and preparing all the veggies> from the garden with my nan, cos she could do that. Admittedly, when I was> a kid male and female stereotypes were very definite, but most of the kids> in my area were boys, so I played with the boys - usually cricket and catch,> and tag etc. or off on our bikes. Sometimes we were naughty of course, and> damned the streams in the farms etc.> > I think it is natural to like to try everything.> > Jo> Jonnie

 

[Guest guest]

Obviously not a good teacher! and didn't seem to enjoy it either.

 

Jo

 

-

Anna Blaine

Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:27 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

Chef Ramsey? I"ve got to wonder about the cooking abilites of guy who comes from the country that gave us haggis.

 

Reminds me of a scarring incident from my childhood. When I was in the first grade my teacher decided to teach us all how to bake something. I don't remember what, but it involved adding a teaspoon of cinnamon. She handed me the teaspoon and bottle of cinnamon and told me to measure it out. Now keep in mind I was six and my mother had never let me cook anything before because I couldn't reach the stove yet. I opened up the sprinkle portion of the bottle instead of the pour section and tried sprinkling a teaspoon of cinnanon into the measuring spoon. The teacher ripped both out of my hands says "you know, most world famous chefs are men" and hands the cinnamon to my arch-rival Avinash (he was the only kid was ever able to beat me at spelling bees.)

 

B*tch.

 

Love,

Anna

 

 

 

 

-

Jonnie Hellens

 

8/11/2005 11:30:45 AM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

Too true. My son has found that he really enjoys cooking. Of course we watched Chef Ramsey on Hell's Kitchen and that might have helped him feel it was ok for him to cook.earthstrm <nikkimack wrote: Hi JoI agree with you. It's natural and healthy too. And I think it helps kids grow up to be more well rounded than those who are stuck in sterotypical roles.BBNikki , "Jo Cwazy" <heartwork@c...> wrote:> Hi Nikki> > I had my mum and dad, and my nan (grandmother) lived with us because she had> a damaged heart and couldn't do a lot, and my uncle. I did different things> with all of them - sewing, knitting and helping with housework with my mum,> woodwork with my dad, gardening with my uncle and preparing all the veggies> from the garden with my nan, cos she could do that. Admittedly, when I was> a kid male and female stereotypes were very definite, but most of the kids> in my area were boys, so I played with the boys - usually cricket and catch,> and tag etc. or off on our bikes. Sometimes we were naughty of course, and> damned the streams in the farms etc.> > I think it is natural to like to try everything.> > Jo> Jonnie

[Guest guest]

never seen the show...besides flippin past it once er thrice....

 

fer awhile me and an ex were addicted to food network..

but

they almost never had anything remotely veggie

and, then most of the shows seemed to turn into fast food/ junk food trivia shows, and got bored

i'm not even sure wot channel is the food channel anymore Jo Cwazy Aug 11, 2005 11:26 AM Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

I never use the word normally, but I 'hate' Gordon Ramsay. He is such a pig (sorry real pigs!). He is forever putting non-veggie items into what he says is veggie and feeding it to vegetarians and then laughing about it. Horrible, despicable man.

 

Jo

 

-----

a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

[Guest guest]

There's one channel here I think it's UKTV Food but they don't have any veggie programmes on at all.

 

Jo

 

-

fraggle

Thursday, August 11, 2005 7:38 PM

Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

never seen the show...besides flippin past it once er thrice....

 

fer awhile me and an ex were addicted to food network..

but

they almost never had anything remotely veggie

and, then most of the shows seemed to turn into fast food/ junk food trivia shows, and got bored

i'm not even sure wot channel is the food channel anymore Jo Cwazy Aug 11, 2005 11:26 AM Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

I never use the word normally, but I 'hate' Gordon Ramsay. He is such a pig (sorry real pigs!). He is forever putting non-veggie items into what he says is veggie and feeding it to vegetarians and then laughing about it. Horrible, despicable man.

 

Jo

 

-----

a blinding flash hotter than the sun dead bodies lie across the path the radiation colors the air

finishing one by one

[Guest guest]

It sounds like you are saying we should use our 'womanly wiles' to me - meaning presumably act sexy and attractive to get on at work.

 

Your boyfriend would not have to give up admiring your looks for the relationship to be equal unless of course you do not appreciate his looks.

 

Jo

 

-

lv2breathe

Cc: Lv2breathe

Thursday, August 11, 2005 10:02 PM

Re:OT equality of women/more thoughts

 

 

I don't think we will ever stop beauty pageants of fashion. It's the nature of our being and cultures to revere beauty. It's just the way it is. A women have long been an object of that admiration.

 

Would you really want it another way? If you are straight....would you prefer that your boyfriend does not admire you at all in this way to be "equal"?

 

My point is...we will never be looked upon exactly the same as men so why not use our gifts to the best of our ability? We have enough rights...at least in the West to do much with our lives. Instead of getting angry about beauty pageants I'd rather do something else...as I don't feel beauty pageants are threat to my well-being. Pornography, yes, beauty pageants, no.

 

Kristina

 

 

In a message dated 8/8/05 10:26:32 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes:

Message: 13 Mon, 8 Aug 2005 22:04:50 -0600 "Anna Blaine" <anna333Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughtsI was just channel surfing and was lucky enough to find a beauty pageant. Teenage girls parading around in pastel bikinis and stilettos on a major network during primetime. Oh yeah, women have definitely achieved equality.Love,Anna- zurumato Sent: 8/8/2005 9:14:47 PM Re: Re:OT equality of women/more thoughtsHere, of course, we hit on the real nub of the problem, and that is that, as a society, we make assumptions about what "men" and "women" should be, and thereby pressure people into specific roles purely on the basis of their genitalia... Hi peter,this is so true, it is sickening as it happens from birth. when my son was born, every single gift item of clothing was blue! I used to wrap him around in a pink blanket and would get tons of comments from my mom, my family, and strangers would say "she is so cute"my two year old has long hair. You don't know how many comments I get from people calling her a "She" and then when I tell them he is a boy they say "haven't had the courage to give him the first haircut yet? Well, what if I like his hair that way, I think his hair is gourgeous and why should I cut it!At gatherings, people and friends ask me when am I gonna cut his hair? Constantly!When walking into Toys R Us, this store is Literally separated into two divisions, Everythink pink on one side for the girls, and Everything Blue on the other for boys. On the pink side there are dolls, vacumms, kitchens. On the blue side their are trains, cars, superheros etc. My boys like to play with Dolls, because I kept some of my child hood dolls and they like to play pretend along with their teddy bears. Well, everytime I have a kid over that comes from a "mainstream" kind of family, my kids get teased. There is just no tolerance. A little girl in his school spread a rumor in the cafeteria about how he was playing with girl toys and he got teased in the cafeteria incesantly. these kids are 5 and 6 !!!From a store he picked out a strawberry shortcake coloring book (as a reward for good behaviour), When other kids found this out, (he told them) it was the end of the world!We bought a used bike for 20 dollars at a garage sale, the bike happened to be purple. Everytime some neighborhood boys came along the sidewalk they made sure to tease him because he was riding a "girl bike". My son was in tears and refuses to ride it any more. I also don't think that it is fair how girls are more acepted playing trains and cars are called Tomboys in a cute way, but Boys who play with girl toys are not so accepted. another double standard is when women are seen as sensual, open minded, coquette, experimental when they sleep with other women. But when men sleep with another man (even one time) are automatically just gay. I could go on and on. These kids get these ideas from their parents. When my kids ask me about these issues, my reply to them is;"Toys are for everyone, for children and for everyone who wants to play with them. Why should Only Girls or Only Boys have all the fun with one toy"They liked this response and agreed. -anouk