Guest guest Posted August 8, 2005 Report Share Posted August 8, 2005 Peter I give you that you have done more reading on the subject than I have. And I want to do some soon to understand more. I also, though, meet many people who talk about issues I feel I do understand, and find a way to blame the US for everything. So, forgive me, I am skeptical. Because I've seen people who believe stuff like this turn everything around to fulfill their belief in the evil of the US. I guess I won't know until I get more history...of course I studied WW2 in College, under Western Civilization and at the time, there were many liberal professors all throughout the campus. I don't remember some of the accusations you cite here...even though this professor was in a concentration camp! He is totally, totally grateful to the US and what it had done. I don't hold an overall negative view of the US at all. Yes, we had slavery but most of the South did not want it, did not approve. It was the few merchant classes that were pushing for it...just like it is the few now who are exploiting certain workers for their own gain. Just like now...the poor working folk of the South didn't feel it was right for the wealthy to exploit them so they can get out of paying a wage to the worker. I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and being free. I like being able to choose whatever religion I want to be. I like being able to dress however I want. I like being able to decide my life (do you know how many women CANNOT do this?). I like all the caring organizations out there in the US. I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. I like the rescue and animal rights groups. I love Thanksgiving and think it's a beautiful holiday. I love how we have certain standards for things..like organic foods, and minimum wage and certain working conditions. Some countries have none of these. I even love the arts of this country...Craftsman homes, quilting, to name a couple. Overall, I feel this is a just country. Why? Because the Americans I know and meet, overall, are fair and juste. And it's the people that form a neighborhood, a city and ultimately, a country. We just see things differently. I imagine I'll get a lot of responses to this telling me how horrible things are...but I am not that way, anymore. I WAS that way before and now I am different. I think the good outweighs the bad, by far. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 25 Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:53:07 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re: The US and concentration campsHi Kristina> As for WW2 the US did a great thing. Yes, war is horrible but what was happening was worse than war and it was stopped. Why> not some balance, some truth?OK, let's get some truth... (and I'm only focussing on the US because it's being discussed - I'm not at all happy with the way the UK behaved in the war either!!!)... the US started out by creating the scenario in which Hitler could come to power, by withdrawing all financial support for the Weimar Republic in 1929. This created spiralling inflation which left the people of Germany starving and unable to support themselves. Hitler promised (and delivered) a way out of the situation that his country had been placed in by America (and the other allied states from the First World War). He was, to the German people, a desperate measure for a desperate situation.Then, when Hitler started to invade all those countries, the US looked at what was going, and desperately wanted to get involved in the war in Europe - but Roosevelt had been elected on a pledge of "not our sons", so, the US government began to feed funds and arms to the Chinese in order to enable them to attack Japan. They then worked behind the political scenes to manipulate the Chinese / Japanese war to produce an attack on America which, to quote Roosevelt in a letter to one of his advisors, "must look like it is an unprovoked attack", in order to justify sending US soldiers into a war. The result was Pearl Harbour, which was, as far as Japan was concerned, purely a part of the Chinese / Japanes conflict, and had nothing to do with the war in Europe. This was the opportunity Roosevelt needed, and so war was declared not only on Japan, but on Germany and Italy as well.There was absolutely no interest in stopping concentration camps, or persecution of non Aryans. Let's not forget, this was still before the days of Martin Luther King, and of McCarthism - the US was doing it's part in persecution of various groups based on race and political view.Then, when things finally quietened down in Europe, the US managed to commit what is generally recognised as the most atrocious act in the history of warfare - Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the results of which are *still* causing death and birth defects some 6 decades later.So, to put it simply, what America (and I refer here to the government, not the people) did in WW2 was create the situation where a war could break out, manouevre itself into a position where it could join in, and then perform an act which is having destructive repurcussions 60 years on. Not sure how any of that classifies as "a great thing". Personally, I think it's a pretty poor way to behave.BBPeter[This message contained attachments] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Well, I don't love Thanksgiving. I think it sucks big time. But then I wasn't raised on whitebread revisionist history. I know that Thanksgiving was originally a celebration of the deaths of a whole town of Indians. But then the white folks don't like reading what that nice governor of Pilmouth did, now do they. That would be mean to America. How about if you read some real history. Not my version or anyone else's. Go read the governor's own diaries where he says how it is a glory to god to hear the screams of people burning to death and how they should have a thanksgiving celebration now that they have destroyed the heathens! And did you think it was great when YOUR president cut the funds to the health clinics in Africa and other 3rd world countries because they had the audacity to give out birth control information? Did you think it was a great country when they sent vaccines to Mexico that had birth control in them to stop the spread of the lower classes? Did you think it was a great country when they used infants and small children to test Hep A and Hep B on a gave small children AIDS? Do you think New Freedom is a great thing? Do you think vaccinating babies without their parents' permission is a great thing just so the pharmaceutical companies can make more money? Oh, you don't know what New Freedom is? You didn't know about the forced vaccinations? You never heard about experimenting and testing on babies? Could it be because you only choose to see a "good" America and don't want your boat rocked? Well, luckily there are enough of us out there that don't mind being uncomfortable with what our government is doing and work to stop them turning this country into another Nazi Germany with only one twist, theocracy. Lynda - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Monday, August 08, 2005 7:17 PM Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. Peter I give you that you have done more reading on the subject than I have. And I want to do some soon to understand more. I also, though, meet many people who talk about issues I feel I do understand, and find a way to blame the US for everything. So, forgive me, I am skeptical. Because I've seen people who believe stuff like this turn everything around to fulfill their belief in the evil of the US. I guess I won't know until I get more history...of course I studied WW2 in College, under Western Civilization and at the time, there were many liberal professors all throughout the campus. I don't remember some of the accusations you cite here...even though this professor was in a concentration camp! He is totally, totally grateful to the US and what it had done. I don't hold an overall negative view of the US at all. Yes, we had slavery but most of the South did not want it, did not approve. It was the few merchant classes that were pushing for it...just like it is the few now who are exploiting certain workers for their own gain. Just like now...the poor working folk of the South didn't feel it was right for the wealthy to exploit them so they can get out of paying a wage to the worker. I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and being free. I like being able to choose whatever religion I want to be. I like being able to dress however I want. I like being able to decide my life (do you know how many women CANNOT do this?). I like all the caring organizations out there in the US. I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. I like the rescue and animal rights groups. I love Thanksgiving and think it's a beautiful holiday. I love how we have certain standards for things..like organic foods, and minimum wage and certain working conditions. Some countries have none of these. I even love the arts of this country...Craftsman homes, quilting, to name a couple. Overall, I feel this is a just country. Why? Because the Americans I know and meet, overall, are fair and juste. And it's the people that form a neighborhood, a city and ultimately, a country. We just see things differently. I imagine I'll get a lot of responses to this telling me how horrible things are...but I am not that way, anymore. I WAS that way before and now I am different. I think the good outweighs the bad, by far. Kristina In a message dated 8/8/05 5:54:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 25 Tue, 9 Aug 2005 01:53:07 +0100 "Peter" <metalscarabRe: Re: The US and concentration campsHi Kristina> As for WW2 the US did a great thing. Yes, war is horrible but what was happening was worse than war and it was stopped. Why> not some balance, some truth?OK, let's get some truth... (and I'm only focussing on the US because it's being discussed - I'm not at all happy with the way the UK behaved in the war either!!!)... the US started out by creating the scenario in which Hitler could come to power, by withdrawing all financial support for the Weimar Republic in 1929. This created spiralling inflation which left the people of Germany starving and unable to support themselves. Hitler promised (and delivered) a way out of the situation that his country had been placed in by America (and the other allied states from the First World War). He was, to the German people, a desperate measure for a desperate situation.Then, when Hitler started to invade all those countries, the US looked at what was going, and desperately wanted to get involved in the war in Europe - but Roosevelt had been elected on a pledge of "not our sons", so, the US government began to feed funds and arms to the Chinese in order to enable them to attack Japan. They then worked behind the political scenes to manipulate the Chinese / Japanese war to produce an attack on America which, to quote Roosevelt in a letter to one of his advisors, "must look like it is an unprovoked attack", in order to justify sending US soldiers into a war. The result was Pearl Harbour, which was, as far as Japan was concerned, purely a part of the Chinese / Japanes conflict, and had nothing to do with the war in Europe. This was the opportunity Roosevelt needed, and so war was declared not only on Japan, but on Germany and Italy as well.There was absolutely no interest in stopping concentration camps, or persecution of non Aryans. Let's not forget, this was still before the days of Martin Luther King, and of McCarthism - the US was doing it's part in persecution of various groups based on race and political view.Then, when things finally quietened down in Europe, the US managed to commit what is generally recognised as the most atrocious act in the history of warfare - Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the results of which are *still* causing death and birth defects some 6 decades later.So, to put it simply, what America (and I refer here to the government, not the people) did in WW2 was create the situation where a war could break out, manouevre itself into a position where it could join in, and then perform an act which is having destructive repurcussions 60 years on. Not sure how any of that classifies as "a great thing". Personally, I think it's a pretty poor way to behave.BBPeter[This message contained attachments] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Kristina > I also, though, meet many people who talk about issues I feel I do > understand, and find a way to blame the US for everything. So, forgive > me, I am > skeptical. Because I've seen people who believe stuff like this turn > everything > around to fulfill their belief in the evil of the US. To be fair here - I am only talking about the US becuase that is how the discussion started. WWII wasn't *entirely* the fault of the US - the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and a whole load of others are equally to blame (and I'm talking governments with all of these, not the ordinary people). The fact is that no country is a " heroic saviour " in any war - they are all agressors, and when you start to look more deeply, it appears that all the powerful countries seem to spend a lot of time conspiring together to actually create wars... and are now incredibly good at it! > I guess I won't know until I get more history...of course I studied WW2 in > College, under Western Civilization and at the time, there were many > liberal > professors all throughout the campus. I don't remember some of the > accusations you cite here...even though this professor was in a > concentration camp! > He is totally, totally grateful to the US and what it had done. I think you have hit the problem on the head, as it were... he's totally grateful to the US.. he's therefore hardly an objective observer of events. From his perspective, he would have been starving, treated as a slave, probably about to die, and a US marine appears, probably gives him some food, tells him he's free, and is no longer in danger of dying. That's a very powerful image to that person of the US " doing good " , but he therefore has no incentive to look beyond this to see the background to why the concentration camp existed in the first place - no-one wants to turn their heroes into demons, and that is one of the major problems in history education and scholarship. > I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and > being > free. Hey - when did US citizens suddenly get freedom? > I like being able to choose whatever religion I want to be. Then you've obviously not tried being Muslim lately, or Wiccan in certain states. > I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. Who to? They certainly give more to Israel! > I love how we have certain standards for > things..like > organic foods, and minimum wage and certain working conditions. Unless you're Mexican. > Some > countries > have none of these. Like Burma, which is supported heavily by US oil companies (mostly owned by people like Cheney and Bush) > Overall, I feel this is a just country. Why? Because the Americans I > know > and meet, overall, are fair and juste. And it's the people that form a > neighborhood, a city and ultimately, a country. Hang on, I think I hear " The Star Spangled Banner " starting to play in the distance.. wait a second, and we'll have a cowboy riding off into the sunset :-) BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 damn it peter.. marry me you beat me to it wait..we'd have to move to the netherlands, er spain, er canada then huh... because marriage between two loving ppl is illegal in the land of the free ok ok..i'll stop sounding so bitter vegan smores anyone? metalscarab Aug 9, 2005 10:44 AM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. Hi Kristina > I also, though, meet many people who talk about issues I feel I do > understand, and find a way to blame the US for everything. So, forgive > me, I am > skeptical. Because I've seen people who believe stuff like this turn > everything > around to fulfill their belief in the evil of the US. To be fair here - I am only talking about the US becuase that is how the discussion started. WWII wasn't *entirely* the fault of the US - the UK, France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and a whole load of others are equally to blame (and I'm talking governments with all of these, not the ordinary people). The fact is that no country is a " heroic saviour " in any war - they are all agressors, and when you start to look more deeply, it appears that all the powerful countries seem to spend a lot of time conspiring together to actually create wars... and are now incredibly good at it! > I guess I won't know until I get more history...of course I studied WW2 in > College, under Western Civilization and at the time, there were many > liberal > professors all throughout the campus. I don't remember some of the > accusations you cite here...even though this professor was in a > concentration camp! > He is totally, totally grateful to the US and what it had done. I think you have hit the problem on the head, as it were... he's totally grateful to the US.. he's therefore hardly an objective observer of events. From his perspective, he would have been starving, treated as a slave, probably about to die, and a US marine appears, probably gives him some food, tells him he's free, and is no longer in danger of dying. That's a very powerful image to that person of the US " doing good " , but he therefore has no incentive to look beyond this to see the background to why the concentration camp existed in the first place - no-one wants to turn their heroes into demons, and that is one of the major problems in history education and scholarship. > I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and > being > free. Hey - when did US citizens suddenly get freedom? > I like being able to choose whatever religion I want to be. Then you've obviously not tried being Muslim lately, or Wiccan in certain states. > I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. Who to? They certainly give more to Israel! > I love how we have certain standards for > things..like > organic foods, and minimum wage and certain working conditions. Unless you're Mexican. > Some > countries > have none of these. Like Burma, which is supported heavily by US oil companies (mostly owned by people like Cheney and Bush) > Overall, I feel this is a just country. Why? Because the Americans I > know > and meet, overall, are fair and juste. And it's the people that form a > neighborhood, a city and ultimately, a country. Hang on, I think I hear " The Star Spangled Banner " starting to play in the distance.. wait a second, and we'll have a cowboy riding off into the sunset :-) BB Peter To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 >>>>>I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and being free. I like being able to >>>>>choose whatever religion I want to be. I was just reading about a case where a Pagan family were having trouble with their next door neighbour and the local council, or whatever it is called in America, because they hold their rituals in their living room! On a lot of Pagan the American witches tell me that they will not come out of the broom closet for fear of prejudice against their religion. >>>>> I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. I don't know the figures, but suspect that the US also extracts more debts than Europe. I could be wrong - does anyone know the figures. >>>>> I love how we have certain standards for things..like organic foods, and minimum wage and certain >>>>>working conditions. Some countries have none of these. You have gm foods galore in the States, whereas in the UK we have managed to keep it out of most of our foods. I have heard, and again could be wrong, but believe that two weeks is the average paid holiday in America. I have 6 weeks paid holiday, plus flexitime which would allow me a further 24 days off each year. I think the average mix of Americans is the same as any other country - mainly good people, a few bad ones etc. etc. I have no gripes with the American population, just the people in charge, and the people in charge of the UK and other countries too. Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I didn't know that Lynda. I don't think we learn any Native American history here in the UK, at least we didn't when I was at school. Can you tell me more about that, or is it online anywhere? Jo I know that Thanksgiving was originally a celebration of the deaths of a whole town of Indians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 per capita, places like norway give waaaaaaaaay more the US donates less then .1% of its budget Jo Cwazy Aug 9, 2005 1:45 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. >>>>> I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. I don't know the figures, but suspect that the US also extracts more debts than Europe. I could be wrong - does anyone know the figures. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever†-George Orwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Ah, Peter, the dweeb didn't even own a ranch until the PR boys told him it would improve his image. AND, the ranch doesn't operate as a ranch. Just one more illusion. And, folks don't want to be American Indian in any state! Lynda - <metalscarab > > Hang on, I think I hear " The Star Spangled Banner " starting to play in the > distance.. wait a second, and we'll have a cowboy riding off into the > sunset :-) > > BB > Peter -- Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Now, Fraggle. You live in the Nation of Bezerkley. You can do anything you want there <g> Lynda - fraggle <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:51 AM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. > damn it peter.. > marry me > you beat me to it > wait..we'd have to move to the netherlands, er spain, er canada then huh... > because marriage between two loving ppl is illegal in the land of the free > ok ok..i'll stop sounding so bitter > vegan smores anyone? > > > metalscarab > Aug 9, 2005 10:44 AM > > Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. > > Hi Kristina > > > I also, though, meet many people who talk about issues I feel I do > > understand, and find a way to blame the US for everything. So, forgive > > me, I am > > skeptical. Because I've seen people who believe stuff like this turn > > everything > > around to fulfill their belief in the evil of the US. > > To be fair here - I am only talking about the US becuase that is how the > discussion started. WWII wasn't *entirely* the fault of the US - the UK, > France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and a whole load of others are equally to > blame (and I'm talking governments with all of these, not the ordinary > people). The fact is that no country is a " heroic saviour " in any war - > they are all agressors, and when you start to look more deeply, it appears > that all the powerful countries seem to spend a lot of time conspiring > together to actually create wars... and are now incredibly good at it! > > > I guess I won't know until I get more history...of course I studied WW2 in > > College, under Western Civilization and at the time, there were many > > liberal > > professors all throughout the campus. I don't remember some of the > > accusations you cite here...even though this professor was in a > > concentration camp! > > He is totally, totally grateful to the US and what it had done. > > I think you have hit the problem on the head, as it were... he's totally > grateful to the US.. he's therefore hardly an objective observer of > events. From his perspective, he would have been starving, treated as a > slave, probably about to die, and a US marine appears, probably gives him > some food, tells him he's free, and is no longer in danger of dying. > That's a very powerful image to that person of the US " doing good " , but he > therefore has no incentive to look beyond this to see the background to > why the concentration camp existed in the first place - no-one wants to > turn their heroes into demons, and that is one of the major problems in > history education and scholarship. > > > I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and > > being > > free. > > Hey - when did US citizens suddenly get freedom? > > > I like being able to choose whatever religion I want to be. > > Then you've obviously not tried being Muslim lately, or Wiccan in certain > states. > > > I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. > > Who to? They certainly give more to Israel! > > > I love how we have certain standards for > > things..like > > organic foods, and minimum wage and certain working conditions. > > Unless you're Mexican. > > > Some > > countries > > have none of these. > > Like Burma, which is supported heavily by US oil companies (mostly owned > by people like Cheney and Bush) > > > Overall, I feel this is a just country. Why? Because the Americans I > > know > > and meet, overall, are fair and juste. And it's the people that form a > > neighborhood, a city and ultimately, a country. > > Hang on, I think I hear " The Star Spangled Banner " starting to play in the > distance.. wait a second, and we'll have a cowboy riding off into the > sunset :-) > > BB > Peter > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca. Challenging the court: Thomas E. Jones Jr. says a judge's order tramples on his and his ex-wife's constitutional right to share their religious beliefs with their son. -- Frank Espich / The Star Related news from the WebLatest headlines by topic:• Pagan/Wiccan Powered by Topix.net What is Wicca? Wicca is not a centralized religion but a belief system observed by 50,000 Americans that is recognized by reference texts such as the U.S. Army Chaplain's Handbook.Wicca is related to European tribal nature worship. Wiccans regard living things as sacred and often show a concern for the environment.They do not worship Satan, but some cast "spells." Some worship in the nude as a sign of attunement with nature.The core value of Wicca states, "As it harm none, do what you will."-- Star report By Kevin Corcoran kevin.corcoran An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals." The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth. Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion. Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall. Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute. The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school. "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report. But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian. Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January. "This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox." The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him. Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside. Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son. "When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?" Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. "Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region." Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University. "The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side." At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally. "Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns." Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered. Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis. "That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstru Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca. >>>>>I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and being free. I like being able to >>>>>choose whatever religion I want to be. I was just reading about a case where a Pagan family were having trouble with their next door neighbour and the local council, or whatever it is called in America, because they hold their rituals in their living room! On a lot of Pagan the American witches tell me that they will not come out of the broom closet for fear of prejudice against their religion. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever†-George Orwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Yer lucky if you have 2 weeks paid.. it generally takes you a couple years of work to get two weeks paid vacation and, many folks won't take their time off, for fear of losing their jobs, etc and of course there's the big push for "partial employment", where you don't get any vacation..or medical..or dental..or... Jo Cwazy Aug 9, 2005 1:45 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. >>>>> I love how we have certain standards for things..like organic foods, and minimum wage and certain >>>>>working conditions. Some countries have none of these. You have gm foods galore in the States, whereas in the UK we have managed to keep it out of most of our foods. I have heard, and again could be wrong, but believe that two weeks is the average paid holiday in America. I have 6 weeks paid holiday, plus flexitime which would allow me a further 24 days off each year. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever†-George Orwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I thought that might be the case - thanks for the info. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:33 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. per capita, places like norway give waaaaaaaaay more the US donates less then .1% of its budget Jo Cwazy Aug 9, 2005 1:45 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. >>>>> I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. I don't know the figures, but suspect that the US also extracts more debts than Europe. I could be wrong - does anyone know the figures. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever†-George Orwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Oh yes - I remember reading about this one too. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:44 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca. Challenging the court: Thomas E. Jones Jr. says a judge's order tramples on his and his ex-wife's constitutional right to share their religious beliefs with their son. -- Frank Espich / The Star Related news from the WebLatest headlines by topic:• Pagan/Wiccan Powered by Topix.net What is Wicca? Wicca is not a centralized religion but a belief system observed by 50,000 Americans that is recognized by reference texts such as the U.S. Army Chaplain's Handbook.Wicca is related to European tribal nature worship. Wiccans regard living things as sacred and often show a concern for the environment.They do not worship Satan, but some cast "spells." Some worship in the nude as a sign of attunement with nature.The core value of Wicca states, "As it harm none, do what you will."-- Star report By Kevin Corcoran kevin.corcoran An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals." The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth. Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion. Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall. Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute. The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school. "There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report. But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian. Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January. "This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox." The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him. Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside. Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son. "When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?" Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis. "Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region." Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University. "The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side." At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally. "Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns." Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered. Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis. "That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstru Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefs Father appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca. >>>>>I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and being free. I like being able to >>>>>choose whatever religion I want to be. I was just reading about a case where a Pagan family were having trouble with their next door neighbour and the local council, or whatever it is called in America, because they hold their rituals in their living room! On a lot of Pagan the American witches tell me that they will not come out of the broom closet for fear of prejudice against their religion. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever†-George Orwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 I reckon we'll go that way too. I was reading our companies new 'Strategic Plan' today and there are items on there I don't like - annual hours for one, and shift work. I bet we couldn't get our members out on strike though, so I bet it will go through. Jo - fraggle Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:47 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. Yer lucky if you have 2 weeks paid.. it generally takes you a couple years of work to get two weeks paid vacation and, many folks won't take their time off, for fear of losing their jobs, etc and of course there's the big push for "partial employment", where you don't get any vacation..or medical..or dental..or... Jo Cwazy Aug 9, 2005 1:45 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. >>>>> I love how we have certain standards for things..like organic foods, and minimum wage and certain >>>>>working conditions. Some countries have none of these. You have gm foods galore in the States, whereas in the UK we have managed to keep it out of most of our foods. I have heard, and again could be wrong, but believe that two weeks is the average paid holiday in America. I have 6 weeks paid holiday, plus flexitime which would allow me a further 24 days off each year. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever†-George Orwell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 oakland....i live in oakland... i work in berkeley and, its definately lost a lot of its " peoples republic of berkeley " credentials then again, compared with the rest of the nation, we here are living in a socialist utopia... Lynda <lurine Aug 9, 2005 2:37 PM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. Now, Fraggle. You live in the Nation of Bezerkley. You can do anything you want there <g> Lynda - fraggle <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, August 09, 2005 10:51 AM Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. > damn it peter.. > marry me > you beat me to it > wait..we'd have to move to the netherlands, er spain, er canada then huh... > because marriage between two loving ppl is illegal in the land of the free > ok ok..i'll stop sounding so bitter > vegan smores anyone? > > > metalscarab > Aug 9, 2005 10:44 AM > > Re: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps. > > Hi Kristina > > > I also, though, meet many people who talk about issues I feel I do > > understand, and find a way to blame the US for everything. So, forgive > > me, I am > > skeptical. Because I've seen people who believe stuff like this turn > > everything > > around to fulfill their belief in the evil of the US. > > To be fair here - I am only talking about the US becuase that is how the > discussion started. WWII wasn't *entirely* the fault of the US - the UK, > France, Germany, Italy, Russia, and a whole load of others are equally to > blame (and I'm talking governments with all of these, not the ordinary > people). The fact is that no country is a " heroic saviour " in any war - > they are all agressors, and when you start to look more deeply, it appears > that all the powerful countries seem to spend a lot of time conspiring > together to actually create wars... and are now incredibly good at it! > > > I guess I won't know until I get more history...of course I studied WW2 in > > College, under Western Civilization and at the time, there were many > > liberal > > professors all throughout the campus. I don't remember some of the > > accusations you cite here...even though this professor was in a > > concentration camp! > > He is totally, totally grateful to the US and what it had done. > > I think you have hit the problem on the head, as it were... he's totally > grateful to the US.. he's therefore hardly an objective observer of > events. From his perspective, he would have been starving, treated as a > slave, probably about to die, and a US marine appears, probably gives him > some food, tells him he's free, and is no longer in danger of dying. > That's a very powerful image to that person of the US " doing good " , but he > therefore has no incentive to look beyond this to see the background to > why the concentration camp existed in the first place - no-one wants to > turn their heroes into demons, and that is one of the major problems in > history education and scholarship. > > > I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and > > being > > free. > > Hey - when did US citizens suddenly get freedom? > > > I like being able to choose whatever religion I want to be. > > Then you've obviously not tried being Muslim lately, or Wiccan in certain > states. > > > I read how the US makes more donations than Europe. > > Who to? They certainly give more to Israel! > > > I love how we have certain standards for > > things..like > > organic foods, and minimum wage and certain working conditions. > > Unless you're Mexican. > > > Some > > countries > > have none of these. > > Like Burma, which is supported heavily by US oil companies (mostly owned > by people like Cheney and Bush) > > > Overall, I feel this is a just country. Why? Because the Americans I > > know > > and meet, overall, are fair and juste. And it's the people that form a > > neighborhood, a city and ultimately, a country. > > Hang on, I think I hear " The Star Spangled Banner " starting to play in the > distance.. wait a second, and we'll have a cowboy riding off into the > sunset :-) > > BB > Peter > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 Hi Fraggle > damn it peter.. > marry me Well, I would, but I seem to remember last time you asked me, it turned out you were also engaged to the other Peter (Valley Vegan), and I don't think I could go through that again :-) BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 9, 2005 Report Share Posted August 9, 2005 O.K., this was on another list I belong to (we're a bunch of both Xtians and Pagens, etc.) and everyone was livid because the judge brought religion into the equation, not either parent. We see lots of this sort of thing when divorces include homeschooling and one parent has fits and they can't homeschool anymore. We've seen this sort of thing about religion when one parent is one religion and the other parent is another religion. But this judge's reasoning that the kid would be confused because he was going to a church school is pure unadulterated BULLSHIT! Lynda, sorry about the language but that was holding it down.- fraggle Tuesday, August 09, 2005 2:44 PMRe: Re: Re: the US and concentration camps.Judge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefsFather appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca.Challenging the court: Thomas E. Jones Jr. says a judge's order tramples on his and his ex-wife's constitutional right to share their religious beliefs with their son. -- Frank Espich / The Star Related news from the WebLatest headlines by topic:• Pagan/Wiccan Powered by Topix.net What is Wicca?Wicca is not a centralized religion but a belief system observed by 50,000 Americans that is recognized by reference texts such as the U.S. Army Chaplain's Handbook.Wicca is related to European tribal nature worship. Wiccans regard living things as sacred and often show a concern for the environment.They do not worship Satan, but some cast "spells." Some worship in the nude as a sign of attunement with nature.The core value of Wicca states, "As it harm none, do what you will."-- Star report By Kevin Corcorankevin.corcoran An Indianapolis father is appealing a Marion County judge's unusual order that prohibits him and his ex-wife from exposing their child to "non-mainstream religious beliefs and rituals."The parents practice Wicca, a contemporary pagan religion that emphasizes a balance in nature and reverence for the earth.Cale J. Bradford, chief judge of the Marion Superior Court, kept the unusual provision in the couple's divorce decree last year over their fierce objections, court records show. The order does not define a mainstream religion.Bradford refused to remove the provision after the 9-year-old boy's outraged parents, Thomas E. Jones Jr. and his ex-wife, Tammie U. Bristol, protested last fall.Through a court spokeswoman, Bradford said Wednesday he could not discuss the pending legal dispute.The parents' Wiccan beliefs came to Bradford's attention in a confidential report prepared by the Domestic Relations Counseling Bureau, which provides recommendations to the court on child custody and visitation rights. Jones' son attends a local Catholic school."There is a discrepancy between Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones' lifestyle and the belief system adhered to by the parochial school. . . . Ms. Jones and Mr. Jones display little insight into the confusion these divergent belief systems will have upon (the boy) as he ages," the bureau said in its report.But Jones, 37, Indianapolis, disputes the bureau's findings, saying he attended Bishop Chatard High School in Indianapolis as a non-Christian.Jones has brought the case before the Indiana Court of Appeals, with help from the Indiana Civil Liberties Union. They filed their request for the appeals court to strike the one-paragraph clause in January."This was done without either of us requesting it and at the judge's whim," said Jones, who has organized Pagan Pride Day events in Indianapolis. "It is upsetting to our son that he cannot celebrate holidays with us, including Yule, which is winter solstice, and Ostara, which is the spring equinox."The ICLU and Jones assert the judge's order tramples on the parents' constitutional right to expose their son to a religion of their choice. Both say the court failed to explain how exposing the boy to Wicca's beliefs and practices would harm him.Bristol is not involved in the appeal and could not be reached for comment. She and Jones have joint custody, and the boy lives with the father on the Northside.Jones and the ICLU also argue the order is so vague that it could lead to Jones being found in contempt and losing custody of his son."When they read the order to me, I said, 'You've got to be kidding,' " said Alisa G. Cohen, an Indianapolis attorney representing Jones. "Didn't the judge get the memo that it's not up to him what constitutes a valid religion?"Some people have preconceived notions about Wicca, which has some rituals involving nudity but mostly would be inoffensive to children, said Philip Goff, director of the Center for the Study of Religion & American Culture at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis."Wiccans use the language of witchcraft, but it has a different meaning to them," Goff said. "Their practices tend to be rather pacifistic. They tend to revolve around the old pagan holidays. There's not really a church of Wicca. Practices vary from region to region."Even the U.S. military accommodates Wiccans and educates chaplains about their beliefs, said Lawrence W. Snyder, an associate professor of religious studies at Western Kentucky University."The federal government has given Wiccans protection under the First Amendment," Snyder said. "Unless this judge has some very specific information about activities involving the child that are harmful, the law is not on his side."At times, divorcing parents might battle in the courts over the religion of their children. But Kenneth J. Falk, the ICLU's legal director, said he knows of no such order issued before by an Indiana court. He said his research also did not turn up such a case nationally."Religion comes up most frequently when there are disputes between the parents. There are lots of cases where a mom and dad are of different faiths, and they're having a tug of war over the kids," Falk said. "This is different: Their dispute is with the judge. When the government is attempting to tell people they're not allowed to engage in non-mainstream activities, that raises concerns."Indiana law generally allows parents who are awarded physical custody of children to determine their religious training; courts step in only when the children's physical or emotional health would be endangered.Getting the judge's religious restriction lifted should be a slam-dunk, said David Orentlicher, an Indiana University law professor and Democratic state representative from Indianapolis."That's blatantly unconstitutional," Orentlicher said. "Obviously, the judge can order them not to expose the child to drugs or other inappropriate conduct, but it sounds like this order was confusing or could be misconstruJudge: Parents can't teach pagan beliefsFather appeals order in divorce decree that prevents couple from exposing son to Wicca. >>>>>I like a lot of things about America. I like being a woman here and being free. I like being able to >>>>>choose whatever religion I want to be. I was just reading about a case where a Pagan family were having trouble with their next door neighbour and the local council, or whatever it is called in America, because they hold their rituals in their living room! On a lot of Pagan the American witches tell me that they will not come out of the broom closet for fear of prejudice against their religion. “If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – foreverâ€-George OrwellVersion: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Version: 7.0.338 / Virus Database: 267.10.3/66 - Release 8/8/05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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