Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 Police find 8 Ohio kids locked in cages From Chris Browne CNN Tuesday, September 13, 2005 Posted: 0301 GMT (1101 HKT) (CNN) -- Police in northern Ohio on Monday rescued eight children whose parents told authorities they kept the kids in locked cages for their own protection. The children, ages 1 to 14, were found locked in cages at their home in Wakeman, about 40 miles southwest of Cleveland, according to Lt. Randy Sommers of the Huron County Sheriff's Office. The children were all either adopted or foster children, he said. Authorities said the kids were kept in wooden cages, less than 3 feet by 3 feet, without pillows or blankets. Shortly after being found, the children were sent to Fisher-Titus Medical Center in Norwalk, where they were listed in good condition. The children's parents, Mike and Sharon Gravelle, had 11 children in all, according to authorities. Police said no charges had been filed against the parents. " Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the protection of the children from themselves and from each other, " said Sommers. " They thought there was circumstances with these children that warranted the cages at night, " Sommers added, but he would not go into details of what those circumstances were. All 11 of the children found in the home have been placed in the custody of the Huron County Department of Children and Families. I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 And where was CPS? Foster kids are supposed to have one on one contact with a social worker on a " routine " basis. Homes are supposed to be physically inspected before any perspective adoptee can be placed and again before the final adoption papers go through. Lynda - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:47 AM don't feed the children > Police find 8 Ohio kids locked in cages >>From Chris Browne > CNN > > > > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 Posted: 0301 GMT (1101 HKT) > (CNN) -- Police in northern Ohio on Monday rescued eight children > whose parents told authorities they kept the kids in locked cages > for their own protection. > > The children, ages 1 to 14, were found locked in cages at their home > in Wakeman, about 40 miles southwest of Cleveland, according to Lt. > Randy Sommers of the Huron County Sheriff's Office. > > The children were all either adopted or foster children, he said. > > Authorities said the kids were kept in wooden cages, less than 3 > feet by 3 feet, without pillows or blankets. > > Shortly after being found, the children were sent to Fisher-Titus > Medical Center in Norwalk, where they were listed in good condition. > > The children's parents, Mike and Sharon Gravelle, had 11 children in > all, according to authorities. > > Police said no charges had been filed against the parents. > > " Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the > protection of the children from themselves and from each other, " > said Sommers. > > " They thought there was circumstances with these children that > warranted the cages at night, " Sommers added, but he would not go > into details of what those circumstances were. > > All 11 of the children found in the home have been placed in the > custody of the Huron County Department of Children and Families. > > > > > I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 How strange! Jo > Police find 8 Ohio kids locked in cages > From Chris Browne > CNN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 with wot? most states have had their CPS budgets totally slashed.... you've got one person per county in some instances Lynda <lurine Sep 13, 2005 1:32 PM Re: don't feed the children And where was CPS? Foster kids are supposed to have one on one contact with a social worker on a " routine " basis. Homes are supposed to be physically inspected before any perspective adoptee can be placed and again before the final adoption papers go through. Lynda - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:47 AM don't feed the children > Police find 8 Ohio kids locked in cages >>From Chris Browne > CNN > > > > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 Posted: 0301 GMT (1101 HKT) > (CNN) -- Police in northern Ohio on Monday rescued eight children > whose parents told authorities they kept the kids in locked cages > for their own protection. > > The children, ages 1 to 14, were found locked in cages at their home > in Wakeman, about 40 miles southwest of Cleveland, according to Lt. > Randy Sommers of the Huron County Sheriff's Office. > > The children were all either adopted or foster children, he said. > > Authorities said the kids were kept in wooden cages, less than 3 > feet by 3 feet, without pillows or blankets. > > Shortly after being found, the children were sent to Fisher-Titus > Medical Center in Norwalk, where they were listed in good condition. > > The children's parents, Mike and Sharon Gravelle, had 11 children in > all, according to authorities. > > Police said no charges had been filed against the parents. > > " Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the > protection of the children from themselves and from each other, " > said Sommers. > > " They thought there was circumstances with these children that > warranted the cages at night, " Sommers added, but he would not go > into details of what those circumstances were. > > All 11 of the children found in the home have been placed in the > custody of the Huron County Department of Children and Families. > > > > > I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 That's a myth! Ohio has Children's Justice Act grant funds, Title XX (Social Services Block Grant) funds, the Ohio Statewide Risk Assessment Model, TocontinuetosupportcountiesparticipatinginProtectOHIO, aTitleIV-EWaiverDemonstrationProjetheProtect Ohio Title IV-E Waiver Demonstration Project plus CDHS, PCSA, and CSEA who work in conjunction with OWF. AND, they have a QA system in place that reviews " standards to ensure that children in foster care placements are provided quality services that protect their health and safety. " You will hear routine whining whenever children fall through the cracks. The problem with social services is that about half the workers are either untrained, under-trained or goldbricks! The same whining you hear from public school teachers and most every public employee group in the U.S.! A good half or more of them couldn't hold a job in the " real " world where there aren't rules that make it impossible for anyone to be fired! There was a report written on each of those 8 children when they were placed in that home. If no one inspected the home, then they lied and are criminally negligent and belong in jail right along with the jerks that walked off the job in NO and left the folks in convos to drown! At least in NO the Attorney General is prosecuting those folks. No one ever does anything about the Social Workers who don't do their jobs and it is about time something was done about them! Lynda, who will now step off her soapbox. P.S. I worked in radiology and saw the broken, bruised or dead bodies. All child abuse cases had to have full body scans in the county I worked in. The same is the law throughout CA but not all counties follow the law. We got the body bag for the 12 yo whose father put a bomb in the car and then parked in front of where Mom worked, honked the horn and then blew up the car. She had a restraining order but the school refused to enforce it and allowed the father to pick her up. The principal got a written reprimand. We got the little boy whose parents burned him with cigerettes, stuck pins under his fingernails and then tossed him through a window and left him outside all night. We kept him alive for 3 months by jiggling the x-rays or heating up the thermometer. They placed him back with the parents. 6 months later he was dead! The social worker never checked on them because they went to ONE parenting class. They had been ordered to go to classes for 6 months and then to have a conference and a home inspection before the child was placed back in the home. The social worker got a written reprimand in her file. I can go on about the laws not being inforced and the number of screw ups by social workers who lied on their reports or other " public employees " who couldn't be bothered. After 13 months, I quit the job because I was at the point of killing the next person who came in who had abused a child! - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, September 13, 2005 11:29 AM Re: don't feed the children > with wot? most states have had their CPS budgets totally slashed.... > you've got one person per county in some instances > > > Lynda <lurine > Sep 13, 2005 1:32 PM > > Re: don't feed the children > > And where was CPS? Foster kids are supposed to have one on one contact > with > a social worker on a " routine " basis. Homes are supposed to be physically > inspected before any perspective adoptee can be placed and again before > the > final adoption papers go through. > > Lynda > - > " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx > > Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:47 AM > don't feed the children > > >> Police find 8 Ohio kids locked in cages >>>From Chris Browne >> CNN >> >> >> >> Tuesday, September 13, 2005 Posted: 0301 GMT (1101 HKT) >> (CNN) -- Police in northern Ohio on Monday rescued eight children >> whose parents told authorities they kept the kids in locked cages >> for their own protection. >> >> The children, ages 1 to 14, were found locked in cages at their home >> in Wakeman, about 40 miles southwest of Cleveland, according to Lt. >> Randy Sommers of the Huron County Sheriff's Office. >> >> The children were all either adopted or foster children, he said. >> >> Authorities said the kids were kept in wooden cages, less than 3 >> feet by 3 feet, without pillows or blankets. >> >> Shortly after being found, the children were sent to Fisher-Titus >> Medical Center in Norwalk, where they were listed in good condition. >> >> The children's parents, Mike and Sharon Gravelle, had 11 children in >> all, according to authorities. >> >> Police said no charges had been filed against the parents. >> >> " Basically, the parents thought they were providing for the >> protection of the children from themselves and from each other, " >> said Sommers. >> >> " They thought there was circumstances with these children that >> warranted the cages at night, " Sommers added, but he would not go >> into details of what those circumstances were. >> >> All 11 of the children found in the home have been placed in the >> custody of the Huron County Department of Children and Families. >> >> >> >> >> I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can >> still >> do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do >> the something that I can do. >> >> >> >> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 2005 Report Share Posted September 13, 2005 and on the otherside i went out with a person who worked in CPS, in a county that had over a million ppl in it, and they had 8, count em, 8 staff to handle the whole county....... I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 If that was in CA, that person was telling tales. I still have the numbers and grant info from last year. There isn't a county in CA that comes close to have 1 mill with that few people in CPS. Lynda - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, September 13, 2005 3:34 PM Re: don't feed the children > and on the otherside i went out with a person who worked in CPS, in a > county that had over a million ppl in it, and they had 8, count em, 8 > staff to handle the whole county....... > > I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 1. somehow i have doubts that the person i dated for over a year made it up everyday.. could be just me tho.... 2. my current major relationship person worked for many years in social services, and, i could go on fer days on her stories on budget cuts, politics, and the sh*t she had to put up with, and deal with, as funds dwindled away 3. teachers are grossly underpaid, and thats the truth Lynda <lurine Sep 13, 2005 4:20 PM Re: don't feed the children If that was in CA, that person was telling tales. I still have the numbers and grant info from last year. There isn't a county in CA that comes close to have 1 mill with that few people in CPS. Lynda I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Wellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send them to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and listen to the male teachers discuss them! And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they neglect to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical for them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement plan, the best, bar none, " perks " plans which include paid time to take ECUs plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus. Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for them to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been collecting a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep sixed! The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality of the teachers! Lynda - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Tuesday, September 13, 2005 8:13 PM Re: don't feed the children > 1. somehow i have doubts that the person i dated for over a year made it > up everyday.. > could be just me tho.... > 2. my current major relationship person worked for many years in social > services, and, i could go on fer days on her stories on budget cuts, > politics, and the sh*t she had to put up with, and deal with, as funds > dwindled away > 3. teachers are grossly underpaid, and thats the truth > > > Lynda <lurine > Sep 13, 2005 4:20 PM > > Re: don't feed the children > > If that was in CA, that person was telling tales. I still have the > numbers > and grant info from last year. There isn't a county in CA that comes > close > to have 1 mill with that few people in CPS. > > Lynda > > > I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 We can only do our best to make education as equal as possible, but the truth is, life will never be equal...ever. In nature, life is not equal and in human life, no matter how much we try to socially engineer, it will not be totally equal. To solve this takes a community effort. If the schools are not attracting talent because they are hell holes (and I remember some schools were) then the community needs to make it easier for their children to teach. They need to do their part. The difference between good schools and bad schools was in the behavior of the children. Of course, there are bad children and good children in each..but when the disruptive children overwhelm it becomes impossible. And it is really, really sad but the only way real change can happen is if the behavior changes. By the way, I was a product of divorce and home strife but I was not a disruptive child in school..so I don't agree it has to do with broken homes as I know lots of children from divorced home who are very good kids. Kristina In a message dated 9/14/05 10:43:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Message: 12 Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:10:31 -0400 "zurumato" <zurumatoRe: don't feed the childrenHi Lynda, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same teachers in the same districts and in the same neighborhoods. if you go to Harlem, El Barrio Hispano, Bed-Stuy in Brookyn, and the South Bronxyou will see that inequalities in education exist today. The problem is that they can't attract good teachers to those schools. Nobody wants to work in those neighborhoods. Despite the fact that these kids are not easy to teach beacuse they come from broken homes,some teachers do teach take that risk and are making a difference. I was on of those kids in the 70's and 80's. Some of my teachers were heroes, to me. One was a Post-Hippie who told me to let the sun shine in me. The other a Black Disco Queen who told us that music was love. they are in my hearts till this day.There are bad teachers out there who should have no business teaching but this issue is complex. There is an excellent book called Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol in which he describes the Two Americas that were happening in the education system, sometimes in schools no more than a few miles away. Here is a reviewFrom Library JournalIn 1988, Kozol, author of Death at an Early Age ( LJ 7/67) and the more recent Rachel and Her Children ( LJ 3/15/88), visited schools in over 30 neighborhoods, including East St. Louis, Harlem, the Bronx, Chicago, Jersey City, and San Antonio. In this account, he concludes that real integration has seriously declined and education for minorities and the poor has moved backwards by at least several decades. Shocked by the persistent segregation and bias in poorer neighborhoods, Kozol describes the garrison-like campuses located in high-crime areas, which often lack the most basic needs. Rooms with no heat, few supplies or texts, labs with no equipment or running water, sewer backups, fumes, and overwhelming fiscal shortages combine to create an appalling scene. This is raw stuff. Recommended for all libraries. Previewed in Prepub Alert, LJ 6/1/91 under the title These Young Lives: Still Separate, Still Unequal; Children in America's Schools .- Annette V. Janes, Hamilton P.L., Mass.Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition.-anouk- Lynda Sent: 9/14/2005 12:13:33 AM Re: don't feed the childrenWellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send them to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and listen to the male teachers discuss them!And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they neglect to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical for them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement plan, the best, bar none, "perks" plans which include paid time to take ECUs plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus.Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for them to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been collecting a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep sixed!The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality of the teachers![This message contained attachments] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 yes...it is horrible isn't it...they get paid a whooping $20 something thousand a year.. and all those cool benefits..like working 12 hour days, and buying their own supplies, and even during their *off season* having to come into work and getting ready for the upcoming class season my..we are such a great society... and they get to be teachers, babysitters, doctors, counselors, daycare, and morale officers..that is until the kids get home and plop them in front of the tv please lynda..some of my best friends are teachers....they've been teachers fer years.....they work their freakin *sses off...(and here you all thought punks amounted to nuthin) tell ya wot..when you get to teach 20-40 kids, that come from broken homes, that don't want to be there, with no skool supplies, and the state educational system is tellin you you have to make them all pass a certain exam, and society expects you to be a miracle worker, and yer there from 6am to 6pm..then you can complain about how grossly over-paid teachers are.... Lynda <lurine Sep 13, 2005 9:12 PM Re: don't feed the children Wellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send them to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and listen to the male teachers discuss them! And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they neglect to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical for them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement plan, the best, bar none, " perks " plans which include paid time to take ECUs plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus. Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for them to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been collecting a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep sixed! The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality of the teachers! Lynda I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hi Lynda, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same teachers in the same districts and in the same neighborhoods. if you go to Harlem, El Barrio Hispano, Bed-Stuy in Brookyn, and the South Bronx you will see that inequalities in education exist today. The problem is that they can't attract good teachers to those schools. Nobody wants to work in those neighborhoods. Despite the fact that these kids are not easy to teach beacuse they come from broken homes, some teachers do teach take that risk and are making a difference. I was on of those kids in the 70's and 80's. Some of my teachers were heroes, to me. One was a Post-Hippie who told me to let the sun shine in me. The other a Black Disco Queen who told us that music was love. they are in my hearts till this day. There are bad teachers out there who should have no business teaching but this issue is complex. There is an excellent book called Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol in which he describes the Two Americas that were happening in the education system, sometimes in schools no more than a few miles away. Here is a review From Library JournalIn 1988, Kozol, author of Death at an Early Age ( LJ 7/67) and the more recent Rachel and Her Children ( LJ 3/15/88), visited schools in over 30 neighborhoods, including East St. Louis, Harlem, the Bronx, Chicago, Jersey City, and San Antonio. In this account, he concludes that real integration has seriously declined and education for minorities and the poor has moved backwards by at least several decades. Shocked by the persistent segregation and bias in poorer neighborhoods, Kozol describes the garrison-like campuses located in high-crime areas, which often lack the most basic needs. Rooms with no heat, few supplies or texts, labs with no equipment or running water, sewer backups, fumes, and overwhelming fiscal shortages combine to create an appalling scene. This is raw stuff. Recommended for all libraries. Previewed in Prepub Alert, LJ 6/1/91 under the title These Young Lives: Still Separate, Still Unequal; Children in America's Schools .- Annette V. Janes, Hamilton P.L., Mass.Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition. -anouk - Lynda 9/14/2005 12:13:33 AM Re: don't feed the children Wellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send them to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and listen to the male teachers discuss them!And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they neglect to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical for them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement plan, the best, bar none, "perks" plans which include paid time to take ECUs plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus.Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for them to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been collecting a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep sixed!The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality of the teachers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Not the case. With NO experience whatsoever, a teacher's salary to start in California is, or was in 2002/2004, $34,480. Minimum, small school district. Now, they get step raises, not merit raises, which means that you need to add 10% minimum to that amount to bring it up to " steps " to 2005/2006. Minimum to start for ADAs over 5,000 is/was $37,951. Midrange, $50,405 to $61,262. Highest $60,239 to $74,414. So, your teaching in a high school? Starting, no experience, $35,005, ADAs over 4,000, $37,434. Midrange, $50,416 to $61, 368. Highest, $62,126 to $77,698. Unified school districts, $33,128 to $72,665. And save the song and dance about broken homes and so forth and so on. That is not the average student and most teachers never see the inner-city districts. Plus, most are NOT at school from 6 to 6. Go ask the janitor at the schools. They are in those rooms starting at 3:30 and the teachers are long gone! Plus add in that that salary covers 180 days which works out to $184/day or an actual yearly salary of a minimum of $47,840. Now, please tell me anywhere else you can get hired without any experience what so ever and make over $30,000 a year for only working 180 days. Plus, after 5 years (3 in some districts) you can't be fired unless you sexually abuse a student. Or without so much as getting one single " exceptional " eval you can make over $60,000 a year simply by taking a few ECU classes and being on the job a designated number of years? Sorry, I know there are a *few* good teachers out there but the good ones are the exception. You can't get an easier college degree or more job security anywhere. At that up to $77,698 a year you get SIXTEEN weeks of paid holidays! Oh, and I forgot the other perks. You get special loan rates if you buy a house, special rates on your life, house and car insurance and special scholarships if your kids go to college. In fact, at some colleges your kids pay no tuition. And teachers do NOT buy all their own school supplies and when they do, they get 25% off at all the book stores and office supply stores. 40% of students in the U.S. have been abused by their teachers and the Department of Ed says that number is on the low side because a lot of the abuse isn't reported. Congrats to teachers that actually are teachers but, sadly, the majority are just there to collect a pay check! I too know lots of teachers. Some are friends, some are relatives. I've worked in the school districts, public, private and college. I went to the schools in the Bay Area, San Pablo, El Cerrito, Richmond and points north, Santa Rosa and Eureka. DH has also worked in school districts (Sonoma, El Verano, Boyes Hot Springs) and went to school in Mass, AZ and Santa Rosa. Hmmmm, could that be why we homeschool? Lynda - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:17 AM Re: don't feed the children > yes...it is horrible isn't it...they get paid a whooping $20 something > thousand a year.. > and all those cool benefits..like working 12 hour days, and buying their > own supplies, and even during their *off season* having to come into work > and getting ready for the upcoming class season > my..we are such a great society... > and they get to be teachers, babysitters, doctors, counselors, daycare, > and morale officers..that is until the kids get home and plop them in > front of the tv > > please lynda..some of my best friends are teachers....they've been > teachers fer years.....they work their freakin *sses off...(and here you > all thought punks amounted to nuthin) > > tell ya wot..when you get to teach 20-40 kids, that come from broken > homes, that don't want to be there, with no skool supplies, and the state > educational system is tellin you you have to make them all pass a certain > exam, and society expects you to be a miracle worker, and yer there from > 6am to 6pm..then you can complain about how grossly over-paid teachers > are.... > > > Lynda <lurine > Sep 13, 2005 9:12 PM > > Re: don't feed the children > > Wellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school > districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over > paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send > them > to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and > listen to the male teachers discuss them! > > And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they > neglect > to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have > the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical > for > them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their > families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement > plan, the best, bar none, " perks " plans which include paid time to take > ECUs > plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus. > > Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for > them > to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been > collecting > a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep > sixed! > > The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality > of > the teachers! > > Lynda > > I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 There are "some" good teachers and folks who do it for a good reason. Unfortunately, that is the exception and not the rule and the kids in the "rich" districts aren't getting any better teaches than those in poor districts. There simply aren't that many "good" teachers. I've spent the last 30 plus years doing "kid" rescuing as well as critter rescuing and over and above what I personally witnessed in schools, I can tell you enough horror stories to make you have nightmares! Schools in the U.S. are a disgrace. Kids are physically abused by teachers, bullied by teachers, sexually abused by teachers and the list goes on. If y'all want the numbers, I have those. It ain't a pretty picture! Lynda - zurumato Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:10 AM Re: don't feed the children Hi Lynda, I'm not sure if we are talking about the same teachers in the same districts and in the same neighborhoods. if you go to Harlem, El Barrio Hispano, Bed-Stuy in Brookyn, and the South Bronx you will see that inequalities in education exist today. The problem is that they can't attract good teachers to those schools. Nobody wants to work in those neighborhoods. Despite the fact that these kids are not easy to teach beacuse they come from broken homes, some teachers do teach take that risk and are making a difference. I was on of those kids in the 70's and 80's. Some of my teachers were heroes, to me. One was a Post-Hippie who told me to let the sun shine in me. The other a Black Disco Queen who told us that music was love. they are in my hearts till this day. There are bad teachers out there who should have no business teaching but this issue is complex. There is an excellent book called Savage Inequalities by Jonathan Kozol in which he describes the Two Americas that were happening in the education system, sometimes in schools no more than a few miles away. Here is a review From Library JournalIn 1988, Kozol, author of Death at an Early Age ( LJ 7/67) and the more recent Rachel and Her Children ( LJ 3/15/88), visited schools in over 30 neighborhoods, including East St. Louis, Harlem, the Bronx, Chicago, Jersey City, and San Antonio. In this account, he concludes that real integration has seriously declined and education for minorities and the poor has moved backwards by at least several decades. Shocked by the persistent segregation and bias in poorer neighborhoods, Kozol describes the garrison-like campuses located in high-crime areas, which often lack the most basic needs. Rooms with no heat, few supplies or texts, labs with no equipment or running water, sewer backups, fumes, and overwhelming fiscal shortages combine to create an appalling scene. This is raw stuff. Recommended for all libraries. Previewed in Prepub Alert, LJ 6/1/91 under the title These Young Lives: Still Separate, Still Unequal; Chi ldren in America's Schools .- Annette V. Janes, Hamilton P.L., Mass.Copyright 1991 Reed Business Information, Inc.--This text refers to the Hardcover edition. -anouk - Lynda 9/14/2005 12:13:33 AM Re: don't feed the children Wellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send them to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and listen to the male teachers discuss them!And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they neglect to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical for them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement plan, the best, bar none, "perks" plans which include paid time to take ECUs plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus.Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for them to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been collecting a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep sixed!The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality of the teachers! Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.25/102 - Release 9/14/2005 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 1. my friend marcia(who i've known for approx. 20 yrs) started teacher spec ed in 2003.... her salary was $24,000 2. she quit when a student pulled a gun on her in class (after the superintendent told her it was no big deal) 3. i have several friend's who are teachers...these are my family..ppl i've been with for years, i've lived with them, dated some of em, etc..i sorta know wot time they get up, wot their schedules are...trust me..they often get to work at 6am...and stay there all day long 4. one of my best freinds in the entire world has been a teacher for about 6 yrs...her salary is in the low 30's..she can barely pay her mortgage(and she lives in the ghetto in east oakland), she takes her kids on field trips often paying out of her own pocket, and these are all disadvantaged kids, kids no one else wants.. Lynda <lurine Sep 14, 2005 9:13 AM Re: don't feed the children Not the case. With NO experience whatsoever, a teacher's salary to start in California is, or was in 2002/2004, $34,480. Minimum, small school district. Now, they get step raises, not merit raises, which means that you need to add 10% minimum to that amount to bring it up to " steps " to 2005/2006. Minimum to start for ADAs over 5,000 is/was $37,951. Midrange, $50,405 to $61,262. Highest $60,239 to $74,414. I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 There are exceptions to every rule. So you know a few exceptions. However, at $24,000 a year, the person you know either wasn't a credentialed teacher or only worked part-time. The salaries I listed were for 2003 and were pulled from Alemeda County. Sure, Oakland is an expensive place to live. Lots of us don't choose to live where the cost of living is outrageous. Lots of us work more than one job. That is the result of our choices. Like the hurricane, I don't expect other folks to pay for my choices. I live in fire country. I made that choice and there are things I have to give up for that choice. I pay the price for that choice. Lynda - " fraggle " <EBbrewpunx Wednesday, September 14, 2005 9:38 AM Re: don't feed the children > 1. my friend marcia(who i've known for approx. 20 yrs) started teacher > spec ed in 2003.... > her salary was $24,000 > 2. she quit when a student pulled a gun on her in class (after the > superintendent told her it was no big deal) > 3. i have several friend's who are teachers...these are my family..ppl > i've been with for years, i've lived with them, dated some of em, etc..i > sorta know wot time they get up, wot their schedules are...trust me..they > often get to work at 6am...and stay there all day long > 4. one of my best freinds in the entire world has been a teacher for about > 6 yrs...her salary is in the low 30's..she can barely pay her mortgage(and > she lives in the ghetto in east oakland), she takes her kids on field > trips often paying out of her own pocket, and these are all disadvantaged > kids, kids no one else wants.. > > > > Lynda <lurine > Sep 14, 2005 9:13 AM > > Re: don't feed the children > > Not the case. With NO experience whatsoever, a teacher's salary to start > in > California is, or was in 2002/2004, $34,480. Minimum, small school > district. Now, they get step raises, not merit raises, which means that > you > need to add 10% minimum to that amount to bring it up to " steps " to > 2005/2006. Minimum to start for ADAs over 5,000 is/was $37,951. > Midrange, > $50,405 to $61,262. Highest $60,239 to $74,414. > > > I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do. > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 *sigh* she has a BA(obtained thru UC Berkeley and SF state) she made $24,000.. my ex had to live with her to help her pay HER mortgage(i see a trend) she worked full times of course not all teachers are great but its more of a system problem where everything is relegated to tests and scores no one is expected to actually teach no one is expected to learn in a system of big box skools where we churn students out like some widget factory product where teachers are expected to babysit and teach and be advisors and yet not encouraged at all to be part of their students life in a society where its easy to procure cruise missiles, but skool books are out of date and all made in texas where science isn't taught anymore hey..i HATED skool it was horrible but..it was all about learnin everthing by rote.... there was no thought just take yer test and move on just a number Lynda <lurine Sep 14, 2005 10:09 AM Re: don't feed the children There are exceptions to every rule. So you know a few exceptions. However, at $24,000 a year, the person you know either wasn't a credentialed teacher or only worked part-time. I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hi Kristina I also agree that disruptive behaviour is not necessarily the result of broken homes. My husband's parents were divorced when he was five - his dad was violent - and my Colin is thoroughly lovely - very kind. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Wednesday, September 14, 2005 7:10 PM Re: don't feed the children We can only do our best to make education as equal as possible, but the truth is, life will never be equal...ever. In nature, life is not equal and in human life, no matter how much we try to socially engineer, it will not be totally equal. To solve this takes a community effort. If the schools are not attracting talent because they are hell holes (and I remember some schools were) then the community needs to make it easier for their children to teach. They need to do their part. The difference between good schools and bad schools was in the behavior of the children. Of course, there are bad children and good children in each..but when the disruptive children overwhelm it becomes impossible. And it is really, really sad but the only way real change can happen is if the behavior changes. By the way, I was a product of divorce and home strife but I was not a disruptive child in school..so I don't agree it has to do with broken homes as I know lots of children from divorced home who are very good kids. Kristina In a message dated 9/14/05 10:43:02 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Here you need to have a Masters in order to teach, even in elementary school. Now while those teachers may not be in their classes working, how do you think all those papers get graded? It sure can't be during school hours. Lynda <lurine wrote: Not the case. With NO experience whatsoever, a teacher's salary to start in California is, or was in 2002/2004, $34,480. Minimum, small school district. Now, they get step raises, not merit raises, which means that you need to add 10% minimum to that amount to bring it up to "steps" to 2005/2006. Minimum to start for ADAs over 5,000 is/was $37,951. Midrange, $50,405 to $61,262. Highest $60,239 to $74,414.So, your teaching in a high school? Starting, no experience, $35,005, ADAs over 4,000, $37,434. Midrange, $50,416 to $61, 368. Highest, $62,126 to $77,698.Unified school districts, $33,128 to $72,665.And save the song and dance about broken homes and so forth and so on. That is not the average student and most teachers never see the inner-city districts.Plus, most are NOT at school from 6 to 6. Go ask the janitor at the schools. They are in those rooms starting at 3:30 and the teachers are long gone!Plus add in that that salary covers 180 days which works out to $184/day or an actual yearly salary of a minimum of $47,840.Now, please tell me anywhere else you can get hired without any experience what so ever and make over $30,000 a year for only working 180 days. Plus, after 5 years (3 in some districts) you can't be fired unless you sexually abuse a student.Or without so much as getting one single "exceptional" eval you can make over $60,000 a year simply by taking a few ECU classes and being on the job a designated number of years?Sorry, I know there are a *few* good teachers out there but the good ones are the exception. You can't get an easier college degree or more job security anywhere. At that up to $77,698 a year you get SIXTEEN weeks of paid holidays!Oh, and I forgot the other perks. You get special loan rates if you buy a house, special rates on your life, house and car insurance and special scholarships if your kids go to college. In fact, at some colleges your kids pay no tuition.And teachers do NOT buy all their own school supplies and when they do, they get 25% off at all the book stores and office supply stores.40% of students in the U.S. have been abused by their teachers and the Department of Ed says that number is on the low side because a lot of the abuse isn't reported.Congrats to teachers that actually are teachers but, sadly, the majority are just there to collect a pay check!I too know lots of teachers. Some are friends, some are relatives. I've worked in the school districts, public, private and college. I went to the schools in the Bay Area, San Pablo, El Cerrito, Richmond and points north, Santa Rosa and Eureka. DH has also worked in school districts (Sonoma, El Verano, Boyes Hot Springs) and went to school in Mass, AZ and Santa Rosa.Hmmmm, could that be why we homeschool?Lynda- "fraggle" <EBbrewpunxWednesday, September 14, 2005 8:17 AMRe: don't feed the children> yes...it is horrible isn't it...they get paid a whooping $20 something > thousand a year..> and all those cool benefits..like working 12 hour days, and buying their > own supplies, and even during their *off season* having to come into work > and getting ready for the upcoming class season> my..we are such a great society...> and they get to be teachers, babysitters, doctors, counselors, daycare, > and morale officers..that is until the kids get home and plop them in > front of the tv>> please lynda..some of my best friends are teachers....they've been > teachers fer years.....they work their freakin *sses off...(and here you > all thought punks amounted to nuthin)>> tell ya wot..when you get to teach 20-40 kids, that come from broken > homes, that don't want to be there, with no skool supplies, and the state > educational system is tellin you you have to make them all pass a certain > exam, and society expects you to be a miracle worker, and yer there from > 6am to 6pm..then you can complain about how grossly over-paid teachers > are....>> > Lynda <lurine> Sep 13, 2005 9:12 PM> > Re: don't feed the children>> Wellll, having worked for school districts and DH worked for school> districts, I can tell that generally speaking teachers are grossly over> paid! Further, if you have any daughters, I'd suggest before you send > them> to any public school that you spend some time in the teachers' lounge and> listen to the male teachers discuss them!>> And, please don't bother telling me about their salaries. What they > neglect> to tell the general public is that over an above their salaries they have> the absolute best medical plan in the nation which included full medical > for> them and their families, plus dental plus vision for them and their> families, the best sick leave, the best vacation plan, the best retirement> plan, the best, bar none, "perks" plans which include paid time to take > ECUs> plus having the classes paid for, plus, plus, plus.>> Of course, they don't mention that when they want more money. Time for > them> to be paid for ability to teach, not just because they have been > collecting> a pay check for x number of years. And it is time that tenure was deep> sixed!>> The state of educatio in the U.S. is dismal and it is due to the quality > of> the teachers!>> Lynda>> I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still > do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do > the something that I can do.>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hi Jonnie > Here you need to have a Masters in order to teach, even in elementary school. Now while those teachers may not be in > their classes working, how do you think all those papers get graded? It sure can't be during school hours. I don't know much about US schools, but in the UK an average school day is about 6 hours - compared to an 8 hour working day for other workers. So that gives a clear 2 hours per day for marking papers. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 I went to K-2 in what was then the largest elementary school in the U.S. It was in the ghetto and that ghetto, a whole city just about, has changed much in over 40 years. Richmond was and IS one rough place to live. 70% of the school was black and the total school was at or below poverty level. There were better teachers there than in the supposed "good" neighborhoods that I went to school in later and that my kids went to school in and the orphans/throw-away kids we adopted ever went to. The big change has been in how much the government and unions have intruded into education, IMNSHO! You didn't teach-to-the-test then and a bad teacher could be fired simply because they weren't doing a good job teaching. It didn't take a bloody act of congress to get rid of the dead wood!! Another big difference is that folks didn't get into teaching then because it was an easy college degree and they had the ultimate job security. I know when that changed, it was when I was in high school. Recruiters came around to schools telling kids "become a teacher, the classes are easy and where else can you go and get a job with no experience and make top dollar and have job security and 3 months off paid a year." Teaching used to be a vocation, now it is just another job. As to problem kids. Well, the polar opposites are usually the worst kids in the schools. The poor kid with a chip on his shoulder or the rich kid who thinks his poop don't stink and he can do whatever he wants to! Divorce has little to do with, attitude has a lot to do with and that comes from one or two parent households! Lynda ---- Original Message ----- lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Wednesday, September 14, 2005 11:10 AM Re: don't feed the children We can only do our best to make education as equal as possible, but the truth is, life will never be equal...ever. In nature, life is not equal and in human life, no matter how much we try to socially engineer, it will not be totally equal. To solve this takes a community effort. If the schools are not attracting talent because they are hell holes (and I remember some schools were) then the community needs to make it easier for their children to teach. They need to do their part. The difference between good schools and bad schools was in the behavior of the children. Of course, there are bad children and good children in each..but when the disruptive children overwhelm it becomes impossible. And it is really, really sad but the only way real change can happen is if the behavior changes. By the way, I was a product of divorce and home strife but I was not a disruptive child in school..so I don't agree it has to do with broken homes as I know lots of children from divorced home who are very good kids. Kristina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Hi Peter That's very true. As you know, I work for an examination board, and you cannot get hold of a teacher if you phone after about 3.30 p.m. I would imagine that in the UK they have a good couple of hours at home to mark their papers etc. BB o - Peter Wednesday, September 14, 2005 8:49 PM Re: don't feed the children Hi Jonnie > Here you need to have a Masters in order to teach, even in elementary school. Now while those teachers may not be in > their classes working, how do you think all those papers get graded? It sure can't be during school hours. I don't know much about US schools, but in the UK an average school day is about 6 hours - compared to an 8 hour working day for other workers. So that gives a clear 2 hours per day for marking papers. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Throwing money at it won't make people better teachers. I don't know where folks get that idea. TEACHERS every year say the same thing, give us more money. How the heck is more money going to change the folks that are already teachers? In California, teachers are well-paid. I wrote the grants that got a lot of these folks their money and the amount of money I had to get to pay all the extras for them makes their salary double or more of what you see listed as a starting salary. If they want more money, maybe they need to give up some of the perks! Do folks have any idea what it costs to provide health care for a whole family which includes medical, dental, vision and drugs? Add in PERS, SS/Medicare, unemployment insurance, disability insurance, worker's comp, vacation, holidays, personal leave days, sick leave, increases to base based on how many college units they have, set-asides for ECUs, the cost of subs for when they take off for classes. People never think of the actual costs of employing someone and it isn't the wage, it is the "package." That $30,000 teacher actually costs the district double that! Here's an idea, let's do comps for comparable qualifications and pay them by the hour. If they aren't working, they don't get paid. If they want to take time off to go take some classes, they don't get paid. If they want medical for the whole family, they can pay the extra just like regular folks do. AND, if they don't produce, then they are out of a job just like regular folks! Lynda - Jonnie Hellens Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:02 PM Re: don't feed the children I agree that there are some teachers that shouldn't be teachers, for instance, pedophiles will often put themselves around children and being a teacher is one way to do it. I have a daughter who teaches, and some friends too. They did it in spite of the crappy money. I can think of two people in particular that really, really make a difference. Then there is the whole catch 22 thing, if there was more money, there would be more people who are better qualified. I can tell you many stories of bad, bad teachers and then there are some who really make a difference, just like in any other field of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 Where is here? Teachers do grading of papers during class and during recess. Also, have you taken a look at graded papers lately? I have and the teachers are making as many mistakes as the students. The grammar is scandalous on the handouts they send home. Do you know how many have teaching assistants or student teachers that they put to work doing the grunt work? Do you know how many get graded by scantron in glorious celebration of the enfamous multi-guess quizzes? Then again, have you taken a good hard look at textbooks lately? The kidlets and I have and the number of mistakes in the textbooks is atrocious! We even sent the Saxon math folks back a book with all the corrections to errors and they sent us a nice note saying "We can't be responsible for minor errors in our texts. Than you for your time, we will refer these to the committee for the next update." There were over 100 errors in the teacher's book. There were also several errors in the math theories. Is it any wonder that kids in the U.S. are sooooo far behind in math and science? Lynda - Jonnie Hellens Wednesday, September 14, 2005 12:12 PM Re: don't feed the children Here you need to have a Masters in order to teach, even in elementary school. Now while those teachers may not be in their classes working, how do you think all those papers get graded? It sure can't be during school hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2005 Report Share Posted September 14, 2005 most skool books are made with the state of texas in mind... Lynda Sep 14, 2005 1:41 PM Re: don't feed the children Do you know how many have teaching assistants or student teachers that they put to work doing the grunt work? Do you know how many get graded by scantron in glorious celebration of the enfamous multi-guess quizzes? Then again, have you taken a good hard look at textbooks lately? The kidlets and I have and the number of mistakes in the textbooks is atrocious! We even sent the Saxon math folks back a book with all the corrections to errors and they sent us a nice note saying "We can't be responsible for minor errors in our texts. Than you for your time, we will refer these to the committee for the next update." There were over 100 errors in the teacher's book. There were also several errors in the math theories. Is it any wonder that kids in the U.S. are sooooo far behind in math and science? Lynda I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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