Which came first?

October 4, 2005

No, it's the inflammation in my arteries causing problems. They are now saying that the plaque buildup is actually an inflammatory catch 22. The egg or the chicken...they aren't sure if the inflammation causes it first, or the buildup, but then the plaque is there and breaks open, kinda like a scab, which causes the body to put more plaque and also some blood, then that can break off and cause a heart attack or stroke as well as the fact that it blocks blood flow. I've never had strep, although my DH was particully suseptible to it and would get it all the time. One time he got it and then my DS got it. It put his butt in the hospital with RF, which then went into Juvenile Arthritis. I'm not sure how that could be. I think just like me he's had joint pain all his life and also has auto-immune issues and his immune system went nuts. Since he already had heart problems, they were somewhat concerned about it. Thank goodness DH

doesn't seem to get strep anymore. I don't know if I wanna know what would happen if DS got strep again!

heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

Hi JonnieIn the past, inflammatory heart disease was caused by strep throat causing rheumatic fever, and then leaving areas of inflammation in the body. Is this the problem you have? You could try taking large amounts of vitamin c to see if that would help.Jo , Jonnie Hellens <jonnie_hellens> wrote:> > Grapefruit juice interacts with calcium channel blockers (including Calan, Procardia, Nifedipine, and Verapamil), cholesterol control medications, some psychiatric medications, estrogen, oral contraceptives and many allergy medications (Seldane, Hismanal). The juice modifies the body's way of metabolizing the medication, affecting the liver's ability to work the drug through a person's system. More Information. http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-Med/hol_herb_med_reac.htm> > > > > > It is my understanding that grapefruit or juice do not cause higher cholesterol. Sadly, it is possible for vegans to have high cholesterol, since besides getting cholesterol from our food, we also manufacter the stuff and some of us (like me) make too much. I went to my cardiologist last week and the bummer is I have to go back on Vytorin. The med reduces cholesterol from our food, but also causes us to not make as much. The thing is, it's not only cholesterol that's the problem. You can have high or low cholesterol and still have heart probs (like me), or not. The prob is inflamation. I've had inflamation diseases all my life and while it isn't as much of a prob since I changed my diet, I still have a problem. The med

also reduces inflamation. When your doc checks your cholesterol, he should also check for inflamation (which could be any inflamation in your body, so it's not as accurate as we would hope, but when my inflamation factor was high, even tho my cholesterol wasn't> that high, they went in to check things out and found I had blockage of 85% in one area and 50% in another. I also have a strong family history of early heart problems. I'm young-ish and look healthy) and evaluate your risk factors.> > ank_art <ank_art> wrote:> peter-> i used to drink 2-3 glasses of grapefruit juice every day and completely stopped about 3 months ago --- switched to drinking much more water.... i'll have another cholesterol test later this month and if it shows a lower level i'll let ya know> > peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:> I`m the same, I love Grapefruit, and thought

the opposite about them? now I am confused. I`ve been vegan for 15 years and still have high cholestrol ( hereditary ) , though I have no doubt that it would be higher if I wasnt vegan.> I take a suppliment with EFA/GLA ( thanks Jo for the heads up), Dont eat much processed foods, salt, alcohol to excess, am only 10 stone at 44 years old, so dont know much else that I could do? Maybe give up the grapefruit?> > > The Valley Vegan.............> Ddim yn werth ei halen Not worth his salt > > ank_art <ank_art> wrote:> thanks!> i've been vegan for almost 3 years and was really shocked to find my cholesterol was high -- even though it runs in the family (all meat eaters)> i went to a nutritionist who's open to different diets and she suggested adding flaxseed and oatmeal and drinking more water> somewhere i read that certain meds

recommend not eating grapefruit -- not sure if there's any connection with cholesterol production, but i had been drinking lots of gpfruit juice and completely stopped> just not sure if i'm missing something obvious.. have been searching online but not finding anything helpful ;(> > > heartwerk <heartwork@c...> wrote:> Hi Andrea> > Have you been vegan for long? Usually there shouldn't be too much > problem with high cholesterol in vegans. I would make sure you get > enough vitamin B complex and also take a good all round vitamin and > mineral supplement with extra vitamin E and vitamin C.> > I'll have to dip into some of my books to see what else might help > (I'm at work at present) and get back to you.> > Jo> > , ank_art <ank_art> wrote:> > (head pops up in new

jersey)> > > > hi natalia-> > i've seen those colorful vitamin waters here -- they seem very > popular... not sure if they're vegan since they contain lactates and > vitamin B12 that may be animal-derived.... the company website is > www.glaceau.com -- probably best to ask directly> > are you looking for vitamin supplements that are vegan? > > > > i'm curious if anyone has suggestions on vegan ways to lower > cholesterol... would appreciate any suggestions... it's in my genes > apparently and i want to avoid taking cholesterol-lowering drugs > > > > thanks!> > andrea> > > > peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:> > Welcome Natalia,> > Sorry, but I have never heard of that product. I would suggest that > you look up the manufacturer on the web, and look for the > ingredients. Also

look for a contact link, and send them an e-mail > asking them.> > > > The Valley Vegan................> > > > > > Po mwyaf y llanw, mwyaf y trai The greater the flow, the > greater the ebb > > > > Natalia <natychaos> wrote:> > Hi im new to the group, and I have recently become a vegan after > > several years of being an octo-vegetarian. My question is:> > Is it ok to drink Glaceau Vitamin Water to help in my vegan diet? > any > > suggestions please let me know.> > > > Thanks,> > NC> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to -> > >

October 5, 2005

Hi Jonnie

Can I recommend you read the research Paul Lining (Linus)? did on

vitamin C.

The very basic theory is that all animals apart from humans and

guinea pigs make their own vitamin C. The amount they make, when

counted in ratio with a human would be something a lot more than we

eat. The biggest danger to the body is heamorrhage (sp?) Lack of

vitamin C causes the blood vessels to weaken, eventually break

causing bruising (scurvy). When enough vitamin C is present the

blood vessels heal themselves and get stronger. When we have enough

vitamin C to keep outright scurvy at bay but not enough to keep the

blood vessels healthy our clever old body uses the fat in the

bloodstream to coat the weakened (and therefore inflamed) areas -

because it is very important to avoid massive bleeding. When this

situation continues the arteries become very narrowed and not very

elastic which causes other problems. Basically the body is doing the

best it can in a situation where not enough vitamin C is supplied.

I would recommend taking 5 grams of vitamin C every day - I have

taken 2 grams for several years. There is no harm in taking large

amounts as it is water soluble and your body will use what it needs.

A lot will go straight through, but you need to have your blood

saturated with it - and what stays temporarily in the bladder helps

to combat bladder cancer (incidentally). Spread the doses out

throughout the day.

Anyway - read the research. It may help you.

BB

Jo

, Jonnie Hellens

<jonnie_hellens> wrote:

> No, it's the inflammation in my arteries causing problems. They

are now saying that the plaque buildup is actually an inflammatory

catch 22. The egg or the chicken...they aren't sure if the

inflammation causes it first, or the buildup, but then the plaque is

there and breaks open, kinda like a scab, which causes the body to

put more plaque and also some blood, then that can break off and

cause a heart attack or stroke as well as the fact that it blocks

blood flow. I've never had strep, although my DH was particully

suseptible to it and would get it all the time. One time he got it

and then my DS got it. It put his butt in the hospital with RF,

which then went into Juvenile Arthritis. I'm not sure how that could

be. I think just like me he's had joint pain all his life and also

has auto-immune issues and his immune system went nuts. Since he

already had heart problems, they were somewhat concerned about it.

Thank goodness DH doesn't seem to get strep anymore. I don't know if

> I wanna know what would happen if DS got strep again!

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote:

> Hi Jonnie

>

> In the past, inflammatory heart disease was caused by strep throat

> causing rheumatic fever, and then leaving areas of inflammation in

> the body. Is this the problem you have? You could try taking

large

> amounts of vitamin c to see if that would help.

>

> Jo

>

> , Jonnie Hellens

> <jonnie_hellens> wrote:

> >

> > Grapefruit juice interacts with calcium channel blockers

(including

> Calan, Procardia, Nifedipine, and Verapamil), cholesterol control

> medications, some psychiatric medications, estrogen, oral

> contraceptives and many allergy medications (Seldane, Hismanal).

The

> juice modifies the body's way of metabolizing the medication,

> affecting the liver's ability to work the drug through a person's

> system. More Information. http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-

> Med/hol_herb_med_reac.htm

> >

> > It is my understanding that grapefruit or juice do not cause

higher

> cholesterol. Sadly, it is possible for vegans to have high

> cholesterol, since besides getting cholesterol from our food, we

also

> manufacter the stuff and some of us (like me) make too much. I

went

> to my cardiologist last week and the bummer is I have to go back on

> Vytorin. The med reduces cholesterol from our food, but also

causes

> us to not make as much. The thing is, it's not only cholesterol

> that's the problem. You can have high or low cholesterol and still

> have heart probs (like me), or not. The prob is inflamation. I've

> had inflamation diseases all my life and while it isn't as much of

a

> prob since I changed my diet, I still have a problem. The med also

> reduces inflamation. When your doc checks your cholesterol, he

> should also check for inflamation (which could be any inflamation

in

> your body, so it's not as accurate as we would hope, but when my

> inflamation factor was high, even tho my cholesterol wasn't

> > that high, they went in to check things out and found I had

> blockage of 85% in one area and 50% in another. I also have a

strong

> family history of early heart problems. I'm young-ish and look

> healthy) and evaluate your risk factors.

> >

> > ank_art <ank_art> wrote:

> > peter-

> > i used to drink 2-3 glasses of grapefruit juice every day and

> completely stopped about 3 months ago --- switched to drinking much

> more water.... i'll have another cholesterol test later this month

> and if it shows a lower level i'll let ya know

> >

> > peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:

> > I`m the same, I love Grapefruit, and thought the opposite about

> them? now I am confused. I`ve been vegan for 15 years and still

have

> high cholestrol ( hereditary ) , though I have no doubt that it

would

> be higher if I wasnt vegan.

> > I take a suppliment with EFA/GLA ( thanks Jo for the heads up),

> Dont eat much processed foods, salt, alcohol to excess, am only 10

> stone at 44 years old, so dont know much else that I could do?

Maybe

> give up the grapefruit?

> >

> > The Valley Vegan.............

> > Ddim yn werth ei halen Not worth his salt

> >

> > ank_art <ank_art> wrote:

> > thanks!

> > i've been vegan for almost 3 years and was really shocked to find

> my cholesterol was high -- even though it runs in the family (all

> meat eaters)

> > i went to a nutritionist who's open to different diets and she

> suggested adding flaxseed and oatmeal and drinking more water

> > somewhere i read that certain meds recommend not eating

grapefruit -

> - not sure if there's any connection with cholesterol production,

but

> i had been drinking lots of gpfruit juice and completely stopped

> > just not sure if i'm missing something obvious.. have been

> searching online but not finding anything helpful ;(

> >

> > heartwerk <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > Hi Andrea

> >

> > Have you been vegan for long? Usually there shouldn't be too

much

> > problem with high cholesterol in vegans. I would make sure you

get

> > enough vitamin B complex and also take a good all round vitamin

and

> > mineral supplement with extra vitamin E and vitamin C.

> >

> > I'll have to dip into some of my books to see what else might

help

> > (I'm at work at present) and get back to you.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , ank_art <ank_art> wrote:

> > > (head pops up in new jersey)

> > >

> > > hi natalia-

> > > i've seen those colorful vitamin waters here -- they seem very

> > popular... not sure if they're vegan since they contain lactates

> and

> > vitamin B12 that may be animal-derived.... the company website is

> > www.glaceau.com -- probably best to ask directly

> > > are you looking for vitamin supplements that are vegan?

> > >

> > > i'm curious if anyone has suggestions on vegan ways to lower

> > cholesterol... would appreciate any suggestions... it's in my

genes

> > apparently and i want to avoid taking cholesterol-lowering drugs

> > >

> > > thanks!

> > > andrea

> > >

> > > peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:

> > > Welcome Natalia,

> > > Sorry, but I have never heard of that product. I would suggest

> that

> > you look up the manufacturer on the web, and look for the

> > ingredients. Also look for a contact link, and send them an e-

mail

> > asking them.

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan................

> > >

> > > Po mwyaf y llanw, mwyaf y trai The greater the flow, the

> > greater the ebb

> > >

> > > Natalia <natychaos> wrote:

> > > Hi im new to the group, and I have recently become a vegan

after

> > > several years of being an octo-vegetarian. My question is:

> > > Is it ok to drink Glaceau Vitamin Water to help in my vegan

diet?

> > any

> > > suggestions please let me know.

> > >

> > > Thanks,

> > > NC

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> >

> > >

October 5, 2005

This should be Linus Pauling - knew I'd remember in the end.

Jo

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@g...>

wrote:

> Hi Jonnie

>

> Can I recommend you read the research Paul Lining (Linus)? did on

> vitamin C.

>

> The very basic theory is that all animals apart from humans and

> guinea pigs make their own vitamin C. The amount they make, when

> counted in ratio with a human would be something a lot more than we

> eat. The biggest danger to the body is heamorrhage (sp?) Lack of

> vitamin C causes the blood vessels to weaken, eventually break

> causing bruising (scurvy). When enough vitamin C is present the

> blood vessels heal themselves and get stronger. When we have

enough

> vitamin C to keep outright scurvy at bay but not enough to keep the

> blood vessels healthy our clever old body uses the fat in the

> bloodstream to coat the weakened (and therefore inflamed) areas -

> because it is very important to avoid massive bleeding. When this

> situation continues the arteries become very narrowed and not very

> elastic which causes other problems. Basically the body is doing

the

> best it can in a situation where not enough vitamin C is supplied.

>

> I would recommend taking 5 grams of vitamin C every day - I have

> taken 2 grams for several years. There is no harm in taking large

> amounts as it is water soluble and your body will use what it

needs.

> A lot will go straight through, but you need to have your blood

> saturated with it - and what stays temporarily in the bladder helps

> to combat bladder cancer (incidentally). Spread the doses out

> throughout the day.

>

> Anyway - read the research. It may help you.

>

> BB

> Jo

>

> , Jonnie Hellens

> <jonnie_hellens> wrote:

> > No, it's the inflammation in my arteries causing problems. They

> are now saying that the plaque buildup is actually an inflammatory

> catch 22. The egg or the chicken...they aren't sure if the

> inflammation causes it first, or the buildup, but then the plaque

is

> there and breaks open, kinda like a scab, which causes the body to

> put more plaque and also some blood, then that can break off and

> cause a heart attack or stroke as well as the fact that it blocks

> blood flow. I've never had strep, although my DH was particully

> suseptible to it and would get it all the time. One time he got it

> and then my DS got it. It put his butt in the hospital with RF,

> which then went into Juvenile Arthritis. I'm not sure how that

could

> be. I think just like me he's had joint pain all his life and also

> has auto-immune issues and his immune system went nuts. Since he

> already had heart problems, they were somewhat concerned about it.

> Thank goodness DH doesn't seem to get strep anymore. I don't know

if

> > I wanna know what would happen if DS got strep again!

> >

> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote:

> > Hi Jonnie

> >

> > In the past, inflammatory heart disease was caused by strep

throat

> > causing rheumatic fever, and then leaving areas of inflammation

in

> > the body. Is this the problem you have? You could try taking

> large

> > amounts of vitamin c to see if that would help.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , Jonnie Hellens

> > <jonnie_hellens> wrote:

> > >

> > > Grapefruit juice interacts with calcium channel blockers

> (including

> > Calan, Procardia, Nifedipine, and Verapamil), cholesterol control

> > medications, some psychiatric medications, estrogen, oral

> > contraceptives and many allergy medications (Seldane, Hismanal).

> The

> > juice modifies the body's way of metabolizing the medication,

> > affecting the liver's ability to work the drug through a person's

> > system. More Information. http://www.holistic-online.com/Herbal-

> > Med/hol_herb_med_reac.htm

> > >

> > > It is my understanding that grapefruit or juice do not cause

> higher

> > cholesterol. Sadly, it is possible for vegans to have high

> > cholesterol, since besides getting cholesterol from our food, we

> also

> > manufacter the stuff and some of us (like me) make too much. I

> went

> > to my cardiologist last week and the bummer is I have to go back

on

> > Vytorin. The med reduces cholesterol from our food, but also

> causes

> > us to not make as much. The thing is, it's not only cholesterol

> > that's the problem. You can have high or low cholesterol and

still

> > have heart probs (like me), or not. The prob is inflamation.

I've

> > had inflamation diseases all my life and while it isn't as much

of

> a

> > prob since I changed my diet, I still have a problem. The med

also

> > reduces inflamation. When your doc checks your cholesterol, he

> > should also check for inflamation (which could be any inflamation

> in

> > your body, so it's not as accurate as we would hope, but when my

> > inflamation factor was high, even tho my cholesterol wasn't

> > > that high, they went in to check things out and found I had

> > blockage of 85% in one area and 50% in another. I also have a

> strong

> > family history of early heart problems. I'm young-ish and look

> > healthy) and evaluate your risk factors.

> > >

> > > ank_art <ank_art> wrote:

> > > peter-

> > > i used to drink 2-3 glasses of grapefruit juice every day and

> > completely stopped about 3 months ago --- switched to drinking

much

> > more water.... i'll have another cholesterol test later this

month

> > and if it shows a lower level i'll let ya know

> > >

> > > peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:

> > > I`m the same, I love Grapefruit, and thought the opposite about

> > them? now I am confused. I`ve been vegan for 15 years and still

> have

> > high cholestrol ( hereditary ) , though I have no doubt that it

> would

> > be higher if I wasnt vegan.

> > > I take a suppliment with EFA/GLA ( thanks Jo for the heads up),

> > Dont eat much processed foods, salt, alcohol to excess, am only

10

> > stone at 44 years old, so dont know much else that I could do?

> Maybe

> > give up the grapefruit?

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan.............

> > > Ddim yn werth ei halen Not worth his salt

> > >

> > > ank_art <ank_art> wrote:

> > > thanks!

> > > i've been vegan for almost 3 years and was really shocked to

find

> > my cholesterol was high -- even though it runs in the family (all

> > meat eaters)

> > > i went to a nutritionist who's open to different diets and she

> > suggested adding flaxseed and oatmeal and drinking more water

> > > somewhere i read that certain meds recommend not eating

> grapefruit -

> > - not sure if there's any connection with cholesterol production,

> but

> > i had been drinking lots of gpfruit juice and completely stopped

> > > just not sure if i'm missing something obvious.. have been

> > searching online but not finding anything helpful ;(

> > >

> > > heartwerk <heartwork@c...> wrote:

> > > Hi Andrea

> > >

> > > Have you been vegan for long? Usually there shouldn't be too

> much

> > > problem with high cholesterol in vegans. I would make sure you

> get

> > > enough vitamin B complex and also take a good all round vitamin

> and

> > > mineral supplement with extra vitamin E and vitamin C.

> > >

> > > I'll have to dip into some of my books to see what else might

> help

> > > (I'm at work at present) and get back to you.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , ank_art <ank_art> wrote:

> > > > (head pops up in new jersey)

> > > >

> > > > hi natalia-

> > > > i've seen those colorful vitamin waters here -- they seem

very

> > > popular... not sure if they're vegan since they contain

lactates

> > and

> > > vitamin B12 that may be animal-derived.... the company website

is

> > > www.glaceau.com -- probably best to ask directly

> > > > are you looking for vitamin supplements that are vegan?

> > > >

> > > > i'm curious if anyone has suggestions on vegan ways to lower

> > > cholesterol... would appreciate any suggestions... it's in my

> genes

> > > apparently and i want to avoid taking cholesterol-lowering

drugs

> > > >

> > > > thanks!

> > > > andrea

> > > >

> > > > peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote:

> > > > Welcome Natalia,

> > > > Sorry, but I have never heard of that product. I would

suggest

> > that

> > > you look up the manufacturer on the web, and look for the

> > > ingredients. Also look for a contact link, and send them an e-

> mail

> > > asking them.

> > > >

> > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > >

> > > > Po mwyaf y llanw, mwyaf y trai The greater the flow, the

> > > greater the ebb

> > > >

> > > > Natalia <natychaos> wrote:

> > > > Hi im new to the group, and I have recently become a vegan

> after

> > > > several years of being an octo-vegetarian. My question is:

> > > > Is it ok to drink Glaceau Vitamin Water to help in my vegan

> diet?

> > > any

> > > > suggestions please let me know.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > NC

> > > >

> > > > To send an email to -

> > >

> > > >

October 5, 2005

He was one of the co-discoverers of DNA in the 50's.

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote:

> Hi Jonnie

>

> Can I recommend you read the research Paul Lining (Linus)? did on

> vitamin C.

>

f effort.

October 5, 2005

linus pauling..

sorta yeah

he would have been further ahead probably, if he could get a visa to travel...

watson and crick are generally credited with discovering the double helix

pattern of dna...i think

pauling refused to sign the loyalty oaths imposed on virtually everyone during

the macarthy era..