study from norway,maine, lobsters don't feel pain

October 26, 2005

PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- A new study out of Norway concludes that it's unlikely lobsters feel pain, stirring up a long-simmering debate over whether Maine's most valuable seafood suffers when it's being cooked.

Animal activists for years have claimed that lobsters feel excruciating agony when they are cooked, and that dropping one in a pot of boiling water is tantamount to torture.

The study, which was funded by the Norwegian government and written by a scientist at the University of Oslo, suggests that lobsters and other invertebrates probably don't suffer even if lobsters do tend to thrash in boiling water.

"Lobsters and crabs have some capacity of learning, but it is unlikely that they can feel pain,'' the study concluded.

The 39-page report was aimed at determining if invertebrates should be subject to animal welfare legislation as Norway revises its animal welfare law. The report looked at invertebrate groups such as insects, crustaceans, worms and mollusks and summarized the scientific literature dealing with feelings and pain among those creatures without backbones.

It concluded that most invertebrates -- including lobsters, crabs, worms, snails, slugs and clams -- probably don't have the capacity to feel pain.

Lobster biologists in Maine have maintained for years that the lobster's primitive nervous system and underdeveloped brain are similar to that of an insect. While lobsters react to different stimuli, such as boiling water, the reactions are escape mechanisms, not a conscious response or an indication of pain, they say.

The Norwegian report backs up a study in the early 1990s at the University of Maine and reinforces what people in the lobster industry have always contended, said Bob Bayer, executive director of the Lobster Institute, a research and education organization in Orono.

"We've maintained all along that the lobster doesn't have the ability to process pain,'' Bayer said.

People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an animal rights organization based in Norfolk, Va., has made lobster pain part of its Fish Empathy Project, putting out stickers and pamphlets with slogans like, "Being Boiled Hurts. Let Lobsters Live.''

PETA regularly demonstrates at the Maine Lobster Festival in Rockland, and 10 years ago placed a full-page ad in a Rockland newspaper featuring an open letter from actress Mary Tyler Moore urging festival-goers to forego lobster.

"If we had to drop live pigs or chickens into scalding water, chances are that few of us would eat them. Why should it be any different for lobsters?'' the ad read.

PETA's Karin Robertson called the Norwegian study biased, saying the government doesn't want to hurt the country's fishing industry.

"This is exactly like the tobacco industry claiming that smoking doesn't cause cancer,'' she said.

Robertson said many scientists believe lobsters do indeed feel pain. For instance, a zoologist with The Humane Society of the United States made a written declaration that lobsters can feel pain after a chef dismembered and sauteed a live lobster to prepare a Lobster Fra Diavolo dish on NBC's "Today'' show in 1994.

But Mike Loughlin, who studied the boiling of lobsters when he was a University of Maine graduate student, said lobsters simply lack the brain capacity to feel pain.

"It's a semantic thing: No brain, no pain,'' said Loughlin, who now works as a biologist at the Maine Atlantic Salmon Commission.

It's debatable whether the debate will ever be resolved.

The Norwegian study, even while saying it's unlikely that crustaceans feel pain, also cautioned that more research is needed because there is a scarcity of scientific knowledge on the subject.

Whether lobsters feel pain or not, many consumers will always hesitate at placing lobsters in boiling pots of water. New Englanders may feel comfortable cooking their lobsters, but people outside the region often feel uneasy about boiling a live creature, said Kristen Millar, executive director of the Maine Lobster Promotion Council. "Consumers don't generally greet and meet an animal before they eat it,'' she said.

October 26, 2005

That's strange - there was a report here only about a month ago saying

that it had been proved that lobsters do feel pain!

Jo

, " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...> wrote:

>

> PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- A new study out of Norway concludes that

it's unlikely lobsters feel pain, stirring up a long-simmering debate

over whether Maine's most valuable seafood suffers when it's being

cooked.

> Animal activists for years have claimed that lobsters feel

excruciating agony when they are cooked, and that dropping one in a

pot of boiling water is tantamount to torture.

> The study, which was funded by the Norwegian government and written

by a scientist at the University of Oslo, suggests that lobsters and

other invertebrates probably don't suffer even if lobsters do tend to

thrash in boiling water.

> " Lobsters and crabs have some capacity of learning, but it is

unlikely that they can feel pain,'' the study concluded.

> The 39-page report was aimed at determining if invertebrates should

be subject to animal welfare legislation as Norway revises its animal

welfare law. The report looked at invertebrate groups such as insects,

crustaceans, worms and mollusks and summarized the scientific

literature dealing with feelings and pain among those creatures

without backbones.

> It concluded that most invertebrates -- including lobsters, crabs,

worms, snails, slugs and clams -- probably don't have the capacity to

feel pain.

> Lobster biologists in Maine have maintained for years that the

lobster's primitive nervous system and underdeveloped brain are

similar to that of an insect. While lobsters react to different

stimuli, such as boiling water, the reactions are escape mechanisms,

not a conscious response or an indication of pain, they say.

> The Norwegian report backs up a study in the early 1990s at the

University of Maine and reinforces what people in the lobster industry

have always contended, said Bob Bayer, executive director of the

Lobster Institute, a research and education organization in Orono.

> " We've maintained all along that the lobster doesn't have the

ability to process pain,'' Bayer said.

> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an animal rights

organization based in Norfolk, Va., has made lobster pain part of its

Fish Empathy Project, putting out stickers and pamphlets with slogans

like, " Being Boiled Hurts. Let Lobsters Live.''

> PETA regularly demonstrates at the Maine Lobster Festival in

Rockland, and 10 years ago placed a full-page ad in a Rockland

newspaper featuring an open letter from actress Mary Tyler Moore

urging festival-goers to forego lobster.

> " If we had to drop live pigs or chickens into scalding water,

chances are that few of us would eat them. Why should it be any

different for lobsters?'' the ad read.

> PETA's Karin Robertson called the Norwegian study biased, saying the

government doesn't want to hurt the country's fishing industry.

> " This is exactly like the tobacco industry claiming that smoking

doesn't cause cancer,'' she said.

> Robertson said many scientists believe lobsters do indeed feel pain.

For instance, a zoologist with The Humane Society of the United States

made a written declaration that lobsters can feel pain after a chef

dismembered and sauteed a live lobster to prepare a Lobster Fra

Diavolo dish on NBC's " Today'' show in 1994.

> But Mike Loughlin, who studied the boiling of lobsters when he was a

University of Maine graduate student, said lobsters simply lack the

brain capacity to feel pain.

> " It's a semantic thing: No brain, no pain,'' said Loughlin, who now

works as a biologist at the Maine Atlantic Salmon Commission.

> It's debatable whether the debate will ever be resolved.

> The Norwegian study, even while saying it's unlikely that

crustaceans feel pain, also cautioned that more research is needed

because there is a scarcity of scientific knowledge on the subject.

> Whether lobsters feel pain or not, many consumers will always

hesitate at placing lobsters in boiling pots of water. New Englanders

may feel comfortable cooking their lobsters, but people outside the

region often feel uneasy about boiling a live creature, said Kristen

Millar, executive director of the Maine Lobster Promotion Council.

" Consumers don't generally greet and meet an animal before they eat

it,'' she said.

>

October 26, 2005

i think it hinges on wot you are defining as pain

if you define pain as a certain stimuli that affect neurons in a certain manner,

then yes, lobsters feel pain..they have pain receptors

now..if you equate pain with an emotion, then thats something else..lobsters

won't have human emotions..and there's no reason why they should

but..do they feel pain..yes...

heartwerk <jo.heartwork

Oct 26, 2005 1:02 PM

Re: study from norway,maine, lobsters don't feel pain

That's strange - there was a report here only about a month ago saying

that it had been proved that lobsters do feel pain!

Jo

But they've all gone mad now

Well you'd be pretty mad too

If what happened to cows happened to you

Having your children taken away

Forced to stand in a pen each day

Fed the shit from other dead things

Then chopped to bits...

October 26, 2005

Well, a critter is a critter and they have to feel some sort of pain.

However, how the heck can they prove anything. The same blooming scientist

tell us that animals can't see color. They tell us that horses can't see

color and I know for a fact that at least one horse could see color because

our Sissy didn't like colors in certain orders! She ran barrels. Green and

white was fine. Plain green was fine. Plain blue was fine. Plain white

was fine. Blue and white was fine. Red and white, NO! Blue and red, NO!

Blue and white, fine. Plain red, NO. Red, white and blue, NO, NO, NO!!!

Mix them up and add a color she didn't like and it was a big NO!

Lynda

-

" heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

Wednesday, October 26, 2005 1:02 PM

Re: study from norway,maine, lobsters don't feel pain

> That's strange - there was a report here only about a month ago saying

> that it had been proved that lobsters do feel pain!

>

> Jo

>

> , " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...> wrote:

>>

>> PORTLAND, Maine (AP) -- A new study out of Norway concludes that

> it's unlikely lobsters feel pain, stirring up a long-simmering debate

> over whether Maine's most valuable seafood suffers when it's being

> cooked.

>> Animal activists for years have claimed that lobsters feel

> excruciating agony when they are cooked, and that dropping one in a

> pot of boiling water is tantamount to torture.

>> The study, which was funded by the Norwegian government and written

> by a scientist at the University of Oslo, suggests that lobsters and

> other invertebrates probably don't suffer even if lobsters do tend to

> thrash in boiling water.

>> " Lobsters and crabs have some capacity of learning, but it is

> unlikely that they can feel pain,'' the study concluded.

>> The 39-page report was aimed at determining if invertebrates should

> be subject to animal welfare legislation as Norway revises its animal

> welfare law. The report looked at invertebrate groups such as insects,

> crustaceans, worms and mollusks and summarized the scientific

> literature dealing with feelings and pain among those creatures

> without backbones.

>> It concluded that most invertebrates -- including lobsters, crabs,

> worms, snails, slugs and clams -- probably don't have the capacity to

> feel pain.

>> Lobster biologists in Maine have maintained for years that the

> lobster's primitive nervous system and underdeveloped brain are

> similar to that of an insect. While lobsters react to different

> stimuli, such as boiling water, the reactions are escape mechanisms,

> not a conscious response or an indication of pain, they say.

>> The Norwegian report backs up a study in the early 1990s at the

> University of Maine and reinforces what people in the lobster industry

> have always contended, said Bob Bayer, executive director of the

> Lobster Institute, a research and education organization in Orono.

>> " We've maintained all along that the lobster doesn't have the

> ability to process pain,'' Bayer said.

>> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, an animal rights

> organization based in Norfolk, Va., has made lobster pain part of its

> Fish Empathy Project, putting out stickers and pamphlets with slogans

> like, " Being Boiled Hurts. Let Lobsters Live.''

>> PETA regularly demonstrates at the Maine Lobster Festival in

> Rockland, and 10 years ago placed a full-page ad in a Rockland

> newspaper featuring an open letter from actress Mary Tyler Moore

> urging festival-goers to forego lobster.

>> " If we had to drop live pigs or chickens into scalding water,

> chances are that few of us would eat them. Why should it be any

> different for lobsters?'' the ad read.

>> PETA's Karin Robertson called the Norwegian study biased, saying the

> government doesn't want to hurt the country's fishing industry.

>> " This is exactly like the tobacco industry claiming that smoking

> doesn't cause cancer,'' she said.

>> Robertson said many scientists believe lobsters do indeed feel pain.

> For instance, a zoologist with The Humane Society of the United States

> made a written declaration that lobsters can feel pain after a chef

> dismembered and sauteed a live lobster to prepare a Lobster Fra

> Diavolo dish on NBC's " Today'' show in 1994.

>> But Mike Loughlin, who studied the boiling of lobsters when he was a

> University of Maine graduate student, said lobsters simply lack the

> brain capacity to feel pain.

>> " It's a semantic thing: No brain, no pain,'' said Loughlin, who now

> works as a biologist at the Maine Atlantic Salmon Commission.

>> It's debatable whether the debate will ever be resolved.

>> The Norwegian study, even while saying it's unlikely that

> crustaceans feel pain, also cautioned that more research is needed

> because there is a scarcity of scientific knowledge on the subject.

>> Whether lobsters feel pain or not, many consumers will always

> hesitate at placing lobsters in boiling pots of water. New Englanders

> may feel comfortable cooking their lobsters, but people outside the

> region often feel uneasy about boiling a live creature, said Kristen

> Millar, executive director of the Maine Lobster Promotion Council.

> " Consumers don't generally greet and meet an animal before they eat

> it,'' she said.

>>

>

To send an email to -

>

October 26, 2005

horses aren't color *blind*

they just have weak color sensing(compared to humans)

color is detected by cones and rods in the eyes

humans have 3 types of cones...

horses only have two

that means reds and greens are difficult to tell apart...

Lynda <lurine

Oct 26, 2005 1:11 PM

Re: Re: study from norway,maine, lobsters don't feel pain