Guest guest Posted November 3, 2005 Report Share Posted November 3, 2005 Hi Peter > I thought it was generally accepted that it was based in Celtic history, shouldnt that have included Wales? Perhaps it was the > English accent they didnt understand the question! > How come the more famous dieties all sound welsh? > Arawn, Brigid, Cernunnos, Cerridwen, Danu, Herne, Lugh, Morgan, Rhiannon and Taranis Tis a common misunderstanding, not helped by the fact that half the books on Druids are written by idiots who have an agenda to promote! "Celtic" is simply a language group which covered a hefty chunk of Europe - Ireland, Scotland, Wales, part of England, France, Spain, and a few other places further East (not sure of exact areas without looking it up), so "Celtic history" is one huge topic, since it covers at least 20 distinct cultures. Druids existed in only a tiny part of that area for only a tiny part of the time (around 500 years in Southern Gaul) - they seem to have been the result of a mix of cultures that found themselves in those parts including aboriginal Gallic, La Tene, Etruscan, Greek and Celtic, and did not apparently exist in any other parts of the "Celtic" world. Medieval Irish documents suggest that there were also Irish Druids, but there's no contemporary documents from that period of Irish history to confirm or deny this. Tacitus made a comment that Druids were involved in the Battle for Anglesey in c.60 CE, but his story suggests that the Romans were more than a little surprised to find them there! As to the deities. I don't know the origins of all the ones you name, but Brigid (originally Brighde / Bride) and Lugh are definitely Irish, and I had a feeling that Herne was from Northern England. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 well..would be kinda hard for any other contemporary documents to conform er deny irish druidism, wouldn't it??? druids didn't write..and no one else in 12 BC went toddlin off to Eire very often it seemed...at least not those with a written legacy as for Britain..fer wotever reason, Ceasar seemed convinced there were druids in the UK, and considered it a hotbed of druidism.... and..i remember reading some Greek story on the druids at the edge of Thrace..tho fer the life of me can't remember who...Timaeus???? Posidonius???? whichever..but at least someone mentioned them outside of southern Gaul.... Peter Nov 3, 2005 2:57 PM Re: Re: Druidic Muffins ayone?? Medieval Irish documents suggest that there were also Irish Druids, but there's no contemporary documents from that period of Irish history to confirm or deny this. Tacitus made a comment that Druids were involved in the Battle for Anglesey in c.60 CE, but his story suggests that the Romans were more than a little surprised to find them there! External control are you gonna let them get you? Do you wanna be a prisoner in the boundaries they set you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > well..would be kinda hard for any other contemporary documents to conform er deny irish druidism, wouldn't it??? > druids didn't write..and no one else in 12 BC went toddlin off to Eire very often it seemed...at least not those with a written > legacy That's not true - Druids did write: Caesar explicitly stated that they used Greek script. What they didn't write down was their teachings. But you are right in that there just isn't anything significant in the way of contemporary documents for Irish history in the era, so unless someone finds an Irish Nag Hammadi library (Perhaps an O'Hammadi library), ww'll probably never know > as for Britain..fer wotever reason, Ceasar seemed convinced there were druids in the UK, and considered it a hotbed of > druidism.... Yep - he also was convinced that Britain was an exact triangle with the longest edge aligning due East-West. He actually stated that he "believed" that Druidry originated in Britain, and that he "believed" that Druids still went to Britain to get additional training... but he never actually stated that this was definitely the case, and he was writing at a time long before he ever set foot on the island. > and..i remember reading some Greek story on the druids at the edge of Thrace..tho fer the life of me can't remember > who...Timaeus???? Posidonius???? > whichever..but at least someone mentioned them outside of southern Gaul.... Nope. There are only about 18 contemporary sources: Caesar, Cicero, Strabo, Hippolytus, Diodorus Siculus, Pomponius Mela, Dion Chrysostom, plus a few others who temporarily slip my mind (hey, I'm 100 miles from my books at the moment!) None of them mention Druids in Thrace, and neither Timaeus nor Posidonius mention Druids at all. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 i thought the earliest known description of Druids comes from Timaeus...... Peter Nov 7, 2005 9:20 AM Re: Re: Druidic Muffins ayone?? Hi Fraggle Nope. There are only about 18 contemporary sources: Caesar, Cicero, Strabo, Hippolytus, Diodorus Siculus, Pomponius Mela, Dion Chrysostom, plus a few others who temporarily slip my mind (hey, I'm 100 miles from my books at the moment!) None of them mention Druids in Thrace, and neither Timaeus nor Posidonius mention Druids at all. BB PeterTo send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2005 Report Share Posted November 7, 2005 Hi Fraggle > i thought the earliest known description of Druids comes from Timaeus...... Nope. The earliest extant description is Caesar. Timagenes (I think) refers to a work by Sotion which pre-dated Caesar by about a century, but he doesn't say much of what Sotion had to say, and Sotion's work no longer exists. Timagenes was writing in 1st Century CE IIRC, and came after Caesar, but there's no mention of Druids in Thrace - just in Gaul. BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 ok..had to look it up found similar stuff on a variety of websites.. but..here's one...bold is my addition The earliest account of the Druids coincides with the beginning of the Celtic Iron Age or, La Tène period which dates from the fifth century BC to the Roman occupation of Britain and continental Europe in the first centuries, BC and AD. Among the most famous classical observers of the Druids in ancient Celtic history was Julius Caesar whose manuscripts, The Gallic Wars and The Conquest of Gaul, date to between 50 and 60 BC, the latter end of the La Tène period. In fact, the earliest commentators to write about the Druids were from the Greek and Roman world and most of their accounts date to the first century BC. The most informative commentators to write about the Druids were Julius Caesar, Strabo, and Diodorus Siculus. These writers drew from the earliest known references made by Posidonius, a Greek philosopher from Syria who wrote during the early first century BC, and Timaeus, a Greek historian who lived between the mid-fourth and mid-third centuries, BC. Timaeus's mentions of the Druids specifically are the earliest known to us. Pre-dating these writers are even earlier mentions of a noble and priestly class in Indo-European society made in the sixth century BC by the Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus, and in the fifth century BC by the great historian Herodotus, although neither mentions the Druids specifically. http://www.teachingreligion.com/druidism/history.html-----Original Message----- Peter Nov 7, 2005 10:01 AM Re: Re: Druidic Muffins ayone?? Hi Fraggle > i thought the earliest known description of Druids comes from Timaeus...... Nope. The earliest extant description is Caesar. Timagenes (I think) refers to a work by Sotion which pre-dated Caesar by about a century, but he doesn't say much of what Sotion had to say, and Sotion's work no longer exists. Timagenes was writing in 1st Century CE IIRC, and came after Caesar, but there's no mention of Druids in Thrace - just in Gaul. BB Peter To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Hi Fraggle > found similar stuff on a variety of websites.. One of those instances where it's worth remembering that a lot of drivel is put on the web. Timaeus did not mention Druids - you'll notice that the website gives absolutely no reference at all to where Timaeus supposedly mentioned them! I'd recommend going back to the original source - actually read Timaeus, and find the reference. If you do, then you'll have succeeded where me, Ronald Hutton, TD Kendrick and AL Owen have all failed... and since three of those are the world leading experts on Druidry.... > The earliest account of the Druids coincides with the beginning of the Celtic Iron Age or, La Tène period which dates from the fifth century BC > to the Roman occupation of Britain and continental Europe in the first centuries, BC and AD. Among the most famous classical observers of > the Druids in ancient Celtic history was Julius Caesar whose manuscripts, The Gallic Wars and The Conquest of Gaul, date to between 50 > and 60 BC, the latter end of the La Tène period. In fact, the earliest commentators to write about the Druids were from the Greek and Roman > world and most of their accounts date to the first century BC. The most informative commentators to write about the Druids were Julius > Caesar, Strabo, and Diodorus Siculus. These writers drew from the earliest known references made by Posidonius, a Greek philosopher from > Syria who wrote during the early first century BC, and Timaeus, a Greek historian who lived between the mid-fourth and mid-third > centuries, BC. Timaeus's mentions of the Druids specifically are the earliest known to us. Pre-dating these writers are even earlier > mentions of a noble and priestly class in Indo-European society made in the sixth century BC by the Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus, and > in the fifth century BC by the great historian Herodotus, although neither mentions the Druids specifically. There's so many errors in this, it's hard to know where to start! La Tene ended with the Greek, Etruscan and Celtic migrations in about 500 BCE. Caesar was writing around 70 - 65 BCE. Neither Timaeus or Posidonius mention Druids, unless you believe William Camden (who also made similar claims for Origen). He made a misreading which was dismissed as error as early as 1610 when John Selden pointed it out in Jano Anglorum Facia. I'm quite surprised that it has re-appeared, since no-one has made that misreading in a published work for well over 350 years!!!! And having had a look at the rest of the article... it's just frightening!!!! They seriously need to read some properly researched work on the subject and put the Caitlin Matthews books down!! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 whoa there hoss easy lad..easy i'm just saying wot i had read..and thats the first couple i had seen when i did a quick search sorry..i don't happen to have a copy of Timaeus' Histories lying around.... besides..i seem t o recall it was some other ancient historian (polybius) which referenced his work *shrug* whichever when/if i find something, i'll let ya know may i please have my head back now that you bit it off?? i look even more silly without a head fank yoo mr peter.... fraggle Peter Kebbell Nov 9, 2005 5:34 AM Re: Re: Druidic Muffins ayone?? Hi Fraggle > found similar stuff on a variety of websites.. One of those instances where it's worth remembering that a lot of drivel is put on the web. Timaeus did not mention Druids - you'll notice that the website gives absolutely no reference at all to where Timaeus supposedly mentioned them! I'd recommend going back to the original source - actually read Timaeus, and find the reference. If you do, then you'll have succeeded where me, Ronald Hutton, TD Kendrick and AL Owen have all failed... and since three of those are the world leading experts on Druidry.... > The earliest account of the Druids coincides with the beginning of the Celtic Iron Age or, La Tène period which dates from the fifth century BC > to the Roman occupation of Britain and continental Europe in the first centuries, BC and AD. Among the most famous classical observers of > the Druids in ancient Celtic history was Julius Caesar whose manuscripts, The Gallic Wars and The Conquest of Gaul, date to between 50 > and 60 BC, the latter end of the La Tène period. In fact, the earliest commentators to write about the Druids were from the Greek and Roman > world and most of their accounts date to the first century BC. The most informative commentators to write about the Druids were Julius > Caesar, Strabo, and Diodorus Siculus. These writers drew from the earliest known references made by Posidonius, a Greek philosopher from > Syria who wrote during the early first century BC, and Timaeus, a Greek historian who lived between the mid-fourth and mid-third > centuries, BC. Timaeus's mentions of the Druids specifically are the earliest known to us. Pre-dating these writers are even earlier > mentions of a noble and priestly class in Indo-European society made in the sixth century BC by the Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus, and > in the fifth century BC by the great historian Herodotus, although neither mentions the Druids specifically. There's so many errors in this, it's hard to know where to start! La Tene ended with the Greek, Etruscan and Celtic migrations in about 500 BCE. Caesar was writing around 70 - 65 BCE. Neither Timaeus or Posidonius mention Druids, unless you believe William Camden (who also made similar claims for Origen). He made a misreading which was dismissed as error as early as 1610 when John Selden pointed it out in Jano Anglorum Facia. I'm quite surprised that it has re-appeared, since no-one has made that misreading in a published work for well over 350 years!!!! And having had a look at the rest of the article... it's just frightening!!!! They seriously need to read some properly researched work on the subject and put the Caitlin Matthews books down!! BB Peter To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Hi Fraggle > whoa there hoss > easy lad..easy > i'm just saying wot i had read..and thats the first couple i had seen when i did a quick search > sorry..i don't happen to have a copy of Timaeus' Histories lying around.... > besides..i seem t o recall it was some other ancient historian (polybius) which referenced his work Having now got back to my books.. it was Diogenes Laertius who made reference to Sotion, and to a work called "Magic" which he stated was written by Aristotle (actually, it wasn't, and since the work is now lost, no-one quite knows who it was written by!)... Quite a lot of the time, ancient sources which mention Gallic or British priests are assumed to be referring to Druids, although they never actually mentioned them by name! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 There's an article in the news today about a 25 year old chap in Scotland who was diagnosed with HIV in 2003 and is now free of it, even though he has not had any treatment - interesting! Jo - Peter Kebbell Wednesday, November 09, 2005 1:34 PM Re: Re: Druidic Muffins ayone?? Hi Fraggle > found similar stuff on a variety of websites.. One of those instances where it's worth remembering that a lot of drivel is put on the web. Timaeus did not mention Druids - you'll notice that the website gives absolutely no reference at all to where Timaeus supposedly mentioned them! I'd recommend going back to the original source - actually read Timaeus, and find the reference. If you do, then you'll have succeeded where me, Ronald Hutton, TD Kendrick and AL Owen have all failed... and since three of those are the world leading experts on Druidry.... > The earliest account of the Druids coincides with the beginning of the Celtic Iron Age or, La Tène period which dates from the fifth century BC > to the Roman occupation of Britain and continental Europe in the first centuries, BC and AD. Among the most famous classical observers of > the Druids in ancient Celtic history was Julius Caesar whose manuscripts, The Gallic Wars and The Conquest of Gaul, date to between 50 > and 60 BC, the latter end of the La Tène period. In fact, the earliest commentators to write about the Druids were from the Greek and Roman > world and most of their accounts date to the first century BC. The most informative commentators to write about the Druids were Julius > Caesar, Strabo, and Diodorus Siculus. These writers drew from the earliest known references made by Posidonius, a Greek philosopher from > Syria who wrote during the early first century BC, and Timaeus, a Greek historian who lived between the mid-fourth and mid-third > centuries, BC. Timaeus's mentions of the Druids specifically are the earliest known to us. Pre-dating these writers are even earlier > mentions of a noble and priestly class in Indo-European society made in the sixth century BC by the Greek writer Hecataeus of Miletus, and > in the fifth century BC by the great historian Herodotus, although neither mentions the Druids specifically. There's so many errors in this, it's hard to know where to start! La Tene ended with the Greek, Etruscan and Celtic migrations in about 500 BCE. Caesar was writing around 70 - 65 BCE. Neither Timaeus or Posidonius mention Druids, unless you believe William Camden (who also made similar claims for Origen). He made a misreading which was dismissed as error as early as 1610 when John Selden pointed it out in Jano Anglorum Facia. I'm quite surprised that it has re-appeared, since no-one has made that misreading in a published work for well over 350 years!!!! And having had a look at the rest of the article... it's just frightening!!!! They seriously need to read some properly researched work on the subject and put the Caitlin Matthews books down!! BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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