Vegans and war

December 5, 2005

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...

Susan <oceanfest_2000

Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM

Re: Vegans and war

I believe that very few people WANT to go to war; only

a very few want it and the rest get conscripted into

it one way or another. The other side of the arguement

is defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Nam

conscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts within

yourself and you try to spread it as best you can in

the best ways you are able. Objectors made their

feelings known; fortunately, we live in a country were

we can object and that would be due in part to brave

people who fought for our rights to do so and gave up

their lives to ensure those rights. Others have

objected and by doing so fought for our rights to

choose. It's all part of the same thing. The work

towards peace. To me veganism is part of the larger

statement. Respect life. How the world will finally

see this and do it all on the same page is yet to be

seen.

--- jo <jo.heartwork wrote:

> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to

> go to war.

>

> Jo

> -

> linda

>

> Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM

> Re: Vegan Semantics

>

> I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.

>

> Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I

> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war

> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for

> life spill over into that area too? Not really many

> really young people in their late teens and twenties

> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they

> would be more likely to do it as a statement about

> life and its meaning. And how would the military

> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that

> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a

> thought.

>

> I was thinking when I read your post that it

> sounded like something I have written about my

> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to

> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the

> health of the planet and the generations to come. It

> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems

> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.

> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the

> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for

> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather

> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them.

>

> I had a friend who said his grandmother used to

> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she

> would come back as spider food!

> linda

> " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is

> very important that you do it. "

> Mohandas Gandhi

>

> linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:

> womyn47

> -

> Susan

>

> Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM

> Re: Vegan Semantics

>

> I think being vegan makes a statement about

> respecting

> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for

> my

> children and grandchildren, whether or not they

> choose

> this lifestyle. They will know that there are

> people

> in the world who care what happens to other

> beings. I

> can see small changes others around me make. We

> walk

> through the world with our being and that has an

> impact even though we may not know it or see it.

> The

> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie

> that

> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you

> get a

> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs).

> It's

> about how every action we take or don't take has

> an

> impact--some we may not even know about. People

> at

> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an

> opportunity to

> say why. My being vegan means I'm not

> contributing to

> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially

> supporting

> businesses who do. I can't change the world and

> I'm

> not really trying to, but I can change my part

> in it

> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will

> see

> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the

> soil and

> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not

> to

> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters

> also

> catch and release them. That means one of my

> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and

> release them

> instead of crushing them. She's only five but

> is

> already learning something about the importance

> of

> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy

> shots?

> I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an

> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.

> A

> person can become as active as they want; but

> small

> things do matter on the planet even when they

> seem

> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a

> small

> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino

> effect

> on my life and impacts more and more of my

> decisions

> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab

> animals,

> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I

> know

> some of them didn't later go home and have a

> look?

> How do I know someone in the chain isn't going

> to do

> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible

> for my

> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan

> to me

> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.

>

> P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed

> it's

> payback for when I was raising them! (just

> kidding)

>

> To send an email to

> -

>

> a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

>

> b..

December 5, 2005

on this side of the pond its all about waving a flag, and if yer not with us,

then yer against us, and you must be a terrorist, ...

heartwerk <jo.heartwork

Dec 4, 2005 11:55 PM

Re: Vegans and war

Over here, there is still a lot of pressure on people to feel that

they would go to fight for 'their country'. It seems, in the mind of

the average person, to be a crime not to buy and display a red poppy

for Rememberance Day, and an even bigger crime in those same minds to

buy and display a white poppy for peace at that time of year.

Hopefully the ethic will spread, but I have my doubts.

Jo

, Susan <oceanfest_2000> wrote:

>

> I believe that very few people WANT to go to war; only

> a very few want it and the rest get conscripted into

> it one way or another. The other side of the arguement

> is defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Nam

> conscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts within

> yourself and you try to spread it as best you can in

> the best ways you are able. Objectors made their

> feelings known; fortunately, we live in a country were

> we can object and that would be due in part to brave

> people who fought for our rights to do so and gave up

> their lives to ensure those rights. Others have

> objected and by doing so fought for our rights to

> choose. It's all part of the same thing. The work

> towards peace. To me veganism is part of the larger

> statement. Respect life. How the world will finally

> see this and do it all on the same page is yet to be

> seen.

>

> --- jo <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote:

>

> > I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to

> > go to war.

> >

> > Jo

> > -

> > linda

> >

> > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM

> > Re: Vegan Semantics

> >

> > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.

> >

> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I

> > was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war

> > like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for

> > life spill over into that area too? Not really many

> > really young people in their late teens and twenties

> > do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they

> > would be more likely to do it as a statement about

> > life and its meaning. And how would the military

> > deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that

> > they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a

> > thought.

> >

> > I was thinking when I read your post that it

> > sounded like something I have written about my

> > reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to

> > buying only organic...not for my health, but for the

> > health of the planet and the generations to come. It

> > seems like this just might be a disease as it seems

> > to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.

> > Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the

> > spiders up and take them outside out of respect for

> > me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather

> > kill the spider as they both have a fear of them.

> >

> > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to

> > say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she

> > would come back as spider food!

> > linda

> > " Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is

> > very important that you do it. "

> > Mohandas Gandhi

> >

> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:

> > womyn47

> > -

> > Susan

> >

> > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM

> > Re: Vegan Semantics

> >

> > I think being vegan makes a statement about

> > respecting

> > life . . .all life. I am setting an example for

> > my

> > children and grandchildren, whether or not they

> > choose

> > this lifestyle. They will know that there are

> > people

> > in the world who care what happens to other

> > beings. I

> > can see small changes others around me make. We

> > walk

> > through the world with our being and that has an

> > impact even though we may not know it or see it.

> > The

> > way we choose to be matters. There is a movie

> > that

> > kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you

> > get a

> > chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs).

> > It's

> > about how every action we take or don't take has

> > an

> > impact--some we may not even know about. People

> > at

> > work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an

> > opportunity to

> > say why. My being vegan means I'm not

> > contributing to

> > the pain and suffering. I'm not financially

> > supporting

> > businesses who do. I can't change the world and

> > I'm

> > not really trying to, but I can change my part

> > in it

> > by the actions I take and hopefully someone will

> > see

> > me pick up an earthworm and return it to the

> > soil and

> > think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not

> > to

> > kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters

> > also

> > catch and release them. That means one of my

> > grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and

> > release them

> > instead of crushing them. She's only five but

> > is

> > already learning something about the importance

> > of

> > life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy

> > shots?

> > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an

> > opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.

> > A

> > person can become as active as they want; but

> > small

> > things do matter on the planet even when they

> > seem

> > like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a

> > small

> > thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino

> > effect

> > on my life and impacts more and more of my

> > decisions

> > every day. When I saw that video clip of lab

> > animals,

> > I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I

> > know

> > some of them didn't later go home and have a

> > look?

> > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going

> > to do

> > more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible

> > for my

> > being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan

> > to me

> > is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.

> >

> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed

> > it's

> > payback for when I was raising them! (just

> > kidding)

> >

> > To send an email to

> > -

> >

> --

----------

> >

> > a.. Visit your group " " on the web.

> >

> > b..

December 5, 2005

Then I guess most of us on here must be terrorists? The Valley Vegan.................... you've gotta die, gotta die, gotta die for your government?die for your country? that's shit! fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: on this side of the pond its all about waving a flag, and if yer not with us, then yer against us, and you must be a terrorist, ...heartwerk Dec 4, 2005 11:55 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warOver here, there is still a lot of pressure on people to feel that they would go to fight for 'their country'. It seems, in the mind of the average person, to be a crime not to buy and display a red poppy for Rememberance Day, and an even

bigger crime in those same minds to buy and display a white poppy for peace at that time of year.Hopefully the ethic will spread, but I have my doubts.Jo , Susan wrote:>> I believe that very few people WANT to go to war; only> a very few want it and the rest get conscripted into> it one way or another. The other side of the arguement> is defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Nam> conscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts within> yourself and you try to spread it as best you can in> the best ways you are able. Objectors made their> feelings known; fortunately, we live in a country were> we can object and that would be due in part to brave> people who fought for our rights to do so and gave up> their lives to ensure those rights. Others have> objected and by doing so fought for our rights to> choose.

It's all part of the same thing. The work> towards peace. To me veganism is part of the larger> statement. Respect life. How the world will finally> see this and do it all on the same page is yet to be> seen. > > --- jo wrote:> > > I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> > go to war.> > > > Jo> > - > > linda > > > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> > Re: Vegan Semantics> > > > > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > > > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> > was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> > like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> > life spill over into that area too? Not really

many> > really young people in their late teens and twenties> > do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> > would be more likely to do it as a statement about> > life and its meaning. And how would the military> > deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> > they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> > thought.> > > > I was thinking when I read your post that it> > sounded like something I have written about my> > reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> > buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> > health of the planet and the generations to come. It> > seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> > to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> > Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> > spiders up and take them outside out of respect

for> > me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> > kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> > say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> > would come back as spider food!> > linda> > linda> > "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> > very important that you do it."> > Mohandas Gandhi> > > > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> > womyn47> > - > > Susan > > > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> > Re: Vegan Semantics> > > > > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> > respecting> > life . . .all life. I am setting an example

for> > my> > children and grandchildren, whether or not they> > choose> > this lifestyle. They will know that there are> > people> > in the world who care what happens to other> > beings. I> > can see small changes others around me make. We> > walk> > through the world with our being and that has an> > impact even though we may not know it or see it.> > The> > way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> > that> > kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> > get a> > chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > > It's> > about how every action we take or don't take has> > an> > impact--some we may not even know about. People> > at> > work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> > opportunity to> > say why. My being vegan means I'm

not> > contributing to> > the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> > supporting> > businesses who do. I can't change the world and> > I'm> > not really trying to, but I can change my part> > in it> > by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> > see> > me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> > soil and> > think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> > to> > kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> > also> > catch and release them. That means one of my> > grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> > release them> > instead of crushing them. She's only five but> > is> > already learning something about the importance> > of> > life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> > shots? > > I stopped my part in the

cruelty. I had an> > opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> > A> > person can become as active as they want; but> > small> > things do matter on the planet even when they> > seem> > like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> > small> > thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> > effect> > on my life and impacts more and more of my> > decisions> > every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> > animals,> > I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> > know> > some of them didn't later go home and have a> > look? > > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> > to do> > more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> > for my> > being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> > to me> > is also taking a stand.

A lifetime stand.> > > > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> > it's> > payback for when I was raising them! (just> > kidding)> > > > > > > > To send an email to> > - > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > > > b..

December 5, 2005

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if

attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM>

Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the

planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan

Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say

why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A>

person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an

email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 5, 2005

yeah..but my point was, those who in general push for war, aren't up front living in the dirt and shooting at someone peter hurd Dec 5, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 5, 2005

You mean the " why keep a dof and bark yourself" mentality? Gosh careful with that bayonette, you`ll have someones eye out with that!.......pass the chablis! The Valley Vegan.............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: yeah..but my point was, those who in general push for war, aren't up front living in the dirt and shooting at someone peter hurd Dec 5, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY

HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings

known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was

wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her

husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and

grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world

and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't

a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > >

>> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

I received an e-mail from the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union...American) list I am d to that listed groups here in the states and informing us that if we had ever or did now belong to one of these groups that the FBI might be developing files on us. One of those groups... PETA...People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Animal welfare and rights activists are being considered potential terrorists. As a matter of fact animal welfare and rights activists are considered the biggest national terrorist group in the U.S. We here in the U.S. have lost our minds and we are rapidly losing our freedoms.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

fraggle

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

especially if you quote anti-flag lyrics..

umm..yes..by many definitions current in today's climate, we'd be considered terrorists...

john has a long mustache...baby boomer tiny elvis...a crow flies at midnite... peter hurd Dec 5, 2005 10:32 AM Re: Vegans and war

Then I guess most of us on here must be terrorists?

The Valley Vegan....................

you've gotta die, gotta die, gotta die for your government?die for your country? that's shit!

I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can still do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do.

December 6, 2005

Yes, that I know since we have been taped at peace demonstrations, however, that is NOT what I was pointing out, as was the ACLU,which was that you could be having a dossier made on you for JUST being a member of PETA even if you had never demonstrated about anything...just for giving them money. There is a big difference. Far more insidious than the video taping and pictures from a peace demonstrations. Far more shades of Hitler's Germany.

linda

-

heartwerk

Monday, December 05, 2005 11:56 PM

Re: Vegans and war

This has been going on for years in this country. That is why they video and photograph you when you are on demonstrations.Jo , "linda" <lindai81@c...> wrote:>> I received an e-mail from the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union...American) list I am d to that listed groups here in the states and informing us that if we had ever or did now belong to one of these groups that the FBI might be developing files on us. One of those groups... PETA...People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Animal welfare and rights activists are being considered potential terrorists. As a matter of fact animal welfare and rights activists are considered the biggest national terrorist group in the U.S. We here in the U.S. have lost our minds and we are rapidly losing our freedoms.

December 6, 2005

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

I was listening to CNN this morning and Bush was complaining about the media coverage of the war in Iraq and how the pictures of it are being transmitted back to the States and "scaring people" and he was very upset about "he people being scared." What an idiot. People are seeing the reality of the war and in growing numbers saying "Bring the troops home" seeing that we are aggravating an already horrible situation and that the Iraqi's must work out their own agony and ecstasy. We all know that Bush is never consistent or really gets whatever argument he is using, but what I love about this is that he uses "scare" tactics on us here in the states and has ever since 911 to get people to go to war, to approve of things like the Patriotic Act, to give up their rights all in the name of terrorism....Bush is continually trying to scare people, terrify them really, in order to get them to fall in line like sheep. And any one that criticizes is labeled unpatriotic, in cahoots with the terrorists themselves and is just generally denigrated and ruined if possible...Europe has watch this unfold so I am not telling any of you anything new. Bush makes my head spin...a couple of weeks ago he was telling us that we have to stay to the bitter end otherwise our young people who have died over there will have died in vain. Duh, so more have to die to justify the deaths of others?

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

fraggle

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 8:20 AM

Re: Vegans and war

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!

December 6, 2005

That phrase " theatre of action" is one of many that detracts from the reality and horror of war.I would prefer it if they used phrases like " bullshit, bullets and bodybags", or the " dead, dying and decomposing" The Valley Vegan,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, WAR! What is it good for? ABSOLUTELY NOTHINGlinda <lindai81 wrote: I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of

action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan

Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the

same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think

that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it

is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind

of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and>

release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm

responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable". They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire. Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme......... The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the

young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards

peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a

statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid

she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even

though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my

daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have

a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

yeah..but..here..we are so divorced from war..its like a giant video game

oooh..look at that pretty explosion...

let em see the price of war up front and dirty....

and, if its them, er there kids in the front line...well then...

i wonder how much would change if bush's kids were in baghdad? peter hurd Dec 6, 2005 10:14 AM Re: Vegans and war

If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable".

They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire.

Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme.........

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

Hi Fraggle

> if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

I agreed with the first bit... but... why the poor family member??? Whadidtheydo, except be born into the wrong family? And I seem to remember a Metallica video which has a quote along the lines of "every American would give their firstborn son", or something along those lines... so, I doubt the parents would be too upset if they voted for war in the first place!

> from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em

> see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

What... you want to entertain them... !

BB

Peter

December 6, 2005

Talking of Baghdad, I heard the British troops were still the poor relations to the Americans, when it comes to supplies, accomodation etc over there, tending to put up with less and trying to keep a lower profile also. Dont know if theres any truth in it? The Valley Vegan............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: yeah..but..here..we are so divorced from war..its like a giant video game oooh..look at that pretty explosion... let em see the price of war up front and dirty.... and, if its them, er there kids in the front line...well then... i wonder how much would change if bush's kids were in baghdad? peter hurd Sent:

Dec 6, 2005 10:14 AM Re: Vegans and war If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable". They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire. Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme......... The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote

to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do

so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too?

Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather>

kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to

other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up

an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I

saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!!

Jo

-

fraggle

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM

Re: Vegans and war

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

I did mean animal rights demonstrations or leafleting, and assume this also means if you belong to one of the groups.

Jo

-

linda

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 3:47 PM

Re: Vegans and war

Yes, that I know since we have been taped at peace demonstrations, however, that is NOT what I was pointing out, as was the ACLU,which was that you could be having a dossier made on you for JUST being a member of PETA even if you had never demonstrated about anything...just for giving them money. There is a big difference. Far more insidious than the video taping and pictures from a peace demonstrations. Far more shades of Hitler's Germany.

linda

-

heartwerk

Monday, December 05, 2005 11:56 PM

Re: Vegans and war

This has been going on for years in this country. That is why they video and photograph you when you are on demonstrations.Jo , "linda" <lindai81@c...> wrote:>> I received an e-mail from the ACLU (American Civil Liberties Union...American) list I am d to that listed groups here in the states and informing us that if we had ever or did now belong to one of these groups that the FBI might be developing files on us. One of those groups... PETA...People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. Animal welfare and rights activists are being considered potential terrorists. As a matter of fact animal welfare and rights activists are considered the biggest national terrorist group in the U.S. We here in the U.S. have lost our minds and we are rapidly losing our freedoms.

December 6, 2005

As a matter of fact that is how the shooting video games got their start here in the U.S. The military prior to WWII had a difficult time getting the troops to shoot their guns at the enemy. So the military developed these games to blunt the soldiers apprehension and desensitize them about shooting their rifles. It worked because the rate of soldiers firing their guns went up after playing these "games." Desensitization has long been known to work. And we let our children play these games. I learned all of this after the school shootings here back in about 1998 at the Thurston High School in Springfield, OR. (as it turned out it really didn't apply to the boy that committed these shootings, but did to many others) They brought in lots of experts trying to explain what had occurred, how to adjust to the trauma, and perhaps stop things like this happening in the future. One of the people who came had testified as an expert at one of the other school shootings trial. He had been a military man, taught at Annapolis, and was showing/telling us how these video games were developed and for what purpose. He was living in the area where one of the shootings back in the south was done by two boys who had never handled guns, but were expert shooters and nailed their victims uncannily accurately. They had developed these skills via video game shoot them up bang bang. I am trying to find this guy on the net and his book, his background and expertise...going to take me a bit though since I have forgotten his first name but when I do I will send a link to him.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

fraggle

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 10:21 AM

Re: Vegans and war

yeah..but..here..we are so divorced from war..its like a giant video game

oooh..look at that pretty explosion...

let em see the price of war up front and dirty....

and, if its them, er there kids in the front line...well then...

i wonder how much would change if bush's kids were in baghdad? peter hurd Dec 6, 2005 10:14 AM Re: Vegans and war

If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable".

They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire.

Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme.........

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

I watched A Long Engagement over the past few days and it was heartbreaking. I think they portrayed the war scenes fairly accuratelypeter hurd <swpgh01 wrote: If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable". They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire. Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme......... The Valley Vegan..............fraggle

<EBbrewpunx wrote: i can take it one better those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military... if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism. linda "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47 - peter hurd Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM Re: Vegans and war They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter. The Valley Vegan.................. To save you WE MAY HAVE TO

KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are

able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers

killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.>

Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for>

my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't

change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being

vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > >

>> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

Back in the early 90's the woman who was my childcare provider had several sons. The oldest joined the reserves to get the college education. They were all outraged then when he actually had to go serve.Peter <metalscarab wrote: Hi Fraggle > if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service.... I agreed with the first bit... but... why the poor family member??? Whadidtheydo, except be born into the wrong family? And I seem to remember a Metallica video which has a quote along the lines of "every American would give their firstborn

son", or something along those lines... so, I doubt the parents would be too upset if they voted for war in the first place! > from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em > see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over... What... you want to entertain them... ! BB Peter

Personals Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Personals for free

December 6, 2005

anyone fer a few episodes of black adder goes forth?

especially..the finale??

along the same lines...i think its time i reread War and Peace.... Jonnie Hellens Dec 6, 2005 10:42 AM Re: Vegans and war

I watched A Long Engagement over the past few days and it was heartbreaking. I think they portrayed the war scenes fairly accuratelypeter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable".

They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire.

Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme.........

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

Oh Fraggle - some people don't love their kids (willing to give their only son etc. etc.) It's not fair to send a son just because the parent agrees with war.

Jo

-

fraggle

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 6:21 PM

Re: Vegans and war

yeah..but..here..we are so divorced from war..its like a giant video game

oooh..look at that pretty explosion...

let em see the price of war up front and dirty....

and, if its them, er there kids in the front line...well then...

i wonder how much would change if bush's kids were in baghdad? peter hurd Dec 6, 2005 10:14 AM Re: Vegans and war

If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable".

They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire.

Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme.........

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

maybe they wouldn't be so damn bloody keen to go if their own flesh and blood had to go to the front lines...

hey..i'm almost fer bringing back the draft....maybe then people would then go "hey..wait..i could be sent to die?!"

i said maybe notice...

there's a huge disconnect between those who want war(the congress, the admin, heck, the media) and those who actually get to have their jolly selves actually go and get shot.....

there was a whopping 1 senator who had a kid in the service in 2002...

jo Dec 6, 2005 10:35 AM Re: Vegans and war

Not a good idea. Why should somebody be sent to war because someone else in their family voted to go to war - would you like it if your dad voted for it and you had to go!!!

Jo

-

fraggle

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 4:20 PM

Re: Vegans and war

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

December 6, 2005

I don't like war films/books.

Jo

-

fraggle

Tuesday, December 06, 2005 7:05 PM

Re: Vegans and war

anyone fer a few episodes of black adder goes forth?

especially..the finale??

along the same lines...i think its time i reread War and Peace.... Jonnie Hellens Dec 6, 2005 10:42 AM Re: Vegans and war

I watched A Long Engagement over the past few days and it was heartbreaking. I think they portrayed the war scenes fairly accuratelypeter hurd <swpgh01 wrote:

If they are anything like the British generals in good ole WW1 , it wouldnt make any difference, they would still send out troops to take " untakeable" land, and still loose 4/5 of the troops on the way, and still carry on. The tremendous loss of life would be "regretable".

They would need to be on the line with a rifle that sometimes worked, and then when the whistle blew, would need to be told to advance on machine gun positions with only bayonetts fixed and told not to fire.

Sounds rediculous doesnt it? Check out the Somme.........

The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

i can take it one better

those who vote to go to war by law have to immediately enlist in the military...

if age or infirmity do not let them, then the nearest family member who is physically able to hop on up fer military service....

from then onwards..there is a live simulcast, broadcast into the house and senate chambers, of units in the front line....let em see the brutality of war first hand...over and over and over...

happy fighting.... linda Dec 5, 2005 7:16 PM Re: Vegans and war

I say that the old men/women that vote to go to war ought to be on the front lines if they think it is so honorable and necessary. Bet we wouldn't have war. It is only the young that swallow that bull and are not so intimately aware that death comes to even the young and brave. Bush should have been on the ground in Iraq in the theater of action, in the line of fire and his daughters should have been in the arena seeing action just as everyone else was supposed to do if they were truly patriotic and not a supporter of terrorism.

linda

"Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is very important that you do it."Mohandas Gandhi

linda's Growing Stitchery Projects: womyn47

-

peter hurd

Monday, December 05, 2005 10:36 AM

Re: Vegans and war

They may not be directly involved, but still conciously attend, and contribute to the slaughter.

The Valley Vegan..................

To save you WE MAY HAVE TO KILL YOU!For freedom YOU MAY HAVE TO DIE!#1 at liberationliberating life from bodies, helping spirits fly...Freedom from... LIFE!fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote:

generally, those who want to go to war don't have to fight in said war...Susan Dec 4, 2005 7:09 PM Subject: Re: Vegans and warI believe that very few people WANT to go to war; onlya very few want it and the rest get conscripted intoit one way or another. The other side of the arguementis defending oneself if attacked. Shades of Viet Namconscientous objectors! :-) Peace starts withinyourself and you try to spread it as best you can inthe best ways you are able. Objectors made theirfeelings known; fortunately, we live in a country werewe can object and that would be due in part to bravepeople who fought for our rights to do so and gave uptheir lives to ensure those rights. Others haveobjected and by doing so fought for our rights tochoose. It's all part of the same thing. The worktowards peace. To me veganism is part of the largerstatement. Respect life. How the world will finallysee this and do it all on the same page is yet to beseen. --- jo wrote:> I imagine that very few vegans would be willing to> go to war.> > Jo> - > linda > > Saturday, December 03, 2005 5:13 AM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I'll have to remember to look for the movie Bug.> > Today there were ten soldiers killed in Iraq. I> was wondering....how many vegans would go to a war> like that willing to kill? Or is that reverence for> life spill over into that area too? Not really many> really young people in their late teens and twenties> do the vegan thing for health do they? Seems they> would be more likely to do it as a statement about> life and its meaning. And how would the military> deal with the food demands of vegans? I think that> they do make allowances for Jews and Muslims. Just a> thought.> > I was thinking when I read your post that it> sounded like something I have written about my> reasons for being vegan. And now that has spread to> buying only organic...not for my health, but for the> health of the planet and the generations to come. It> seems like this just might be a disease as it seems> to spread out to encircle a lot of other things too.> Yes, my daughter and her husband take care pick the> spiders up and take them outside out of respect for> me. They are both vegans too, but they would rather> kill the spider as they both have a fear of them. > > I had a friend who said his grandmother used to> say she wouldn't kill a spider as she was afraid she> would come back as spider food!> linda> linda> "Whatever you do will be insignificant and it is> very important that you do it."> Mohandas Gandhi> > linda's Growing Stitchery Projects:> womyn47> - > Susan > > Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM> Re: Vegan Semantics> > > I think being vegan makes a statement about> respecting> life . . .all life. I am setting an example for> my> children and grandchildren, whether or not they> choose> this lifestyle. They will know that there are> people> in the world who care what happens to other> beings. I> can see small changes others around me make. We> walk> through the world with our being and that has an> impact even though we may not know it or see it.> The> way we choose to be matters. There is a movie> that> kind of reflects this, it's called Bug if you> get a> chance to see it (not the animated film, Bugs). > It's> about how every action we take or don't take has> an> impact--some we may not even know about. People> at> work ask me why I'm vegan and I have an> opportunity to> say why. My being vegan means I'm not> contributing to> the pain and suffering. I'm not financially> supporting> businesses who do. I can't change the world and> I'm> not really trying to, but I can change my part> in it> by the actions I take and hopefully someone will> see> me pick up an earthworm and return it to the> soil and> think hey, maybe I can do that too. I chose not> to> kill spiders in my house and two of my daughters> also> catch and release them. That means one of my> grandaughters is seeing her mom catch and> release them> instead of crushing them. She's only five but> is> already learning something about the importance> of> life. What did I gain by stopping my allergy> shots? > I stopped my part in the cruelty. I had an> opportunity to discuss ethics with my physician.> A> person can become as active as they want; but> small> things do matter on the planet even when they> seem> like they don't. For me, being vegan isn't a> small> thing, it's a big thing that has had a domino> effect> on my life and impacts more and more of my> decisions> every day. When I saw that video clip of lab> animals,> I discussed it with a few coworkers. How do I> know> some of them didn't later go home and have a> look? > How do I know someone in the chain isn't going> to do> more than I did? I don't know. I'm responsible> for my> being and I take a stand when I can--being vegan> to me> is also taking a stand. A lifetime stand.> > P.S. I love it when my kids get embarrassed> it's> payback for when I was raising them! (just> kidding)> > > > To send an email to> - > > > >> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.> > b..

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