Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I think that this is a realy well put together statement, and I feel sorry that he has been given such a long stretch for torching an empty building, seems scandalous. Murderers, and nonces have got less, I supose the system must be trying to make an example of him. I hope there are appeals going on............this stinks. The Valley Vegan............"zurumato" <zurumato wrote: This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF and ELF, 23 years old. he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson Sentencing Statement: Dec 16thRe: United States v. Christopher McIntosh(released to the Seattle media) The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio-economic imbalance in the United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my environment as a child, in my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not implying that my childhood experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life experience so far has been a source of deep resentment toward the system. The "civilization" that is set up to make a situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in which both parents worked to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around me in this system called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction with what I came to see as the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, I began to see how working class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as "batteries to bereplaced", when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer serious depression. Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected school for what it is, a tool for training the young to become efficient machines in a system that will never let them fly. A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of 10th grade. At age 16, I was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became a sub-human in the eyes of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects of state repression and America's caste system. What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and politicians, I will never forgive or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way we wish because of this power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must directly attack it and the corporate backing of that system. I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that petitioning, protesting and other methods that did not include direct action were either too slow or completely ineffective. In the present corporate climate, "anything goes" is the corporations' philosophy, no matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that product. This attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an exploitative and sociopathic assault, on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. My specific grievances against McDonalds include: 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless animals. 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and specifically marketed to lower class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy food. 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable garbage that pollutes the body of the goddess Mother Earth. 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to feed cattle and other animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and unsustainable. 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has caused the alienation of the human animal from the "laws of nature" and the sacred aspects of meat consumption.6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives and capitalizes on our suffering.Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to national security with bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the threat posed by McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot in the tradition of my lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, sit by silently while Mother Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as animals are tortured to death and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by the terrorists of the corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing.We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a mentality in which the consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our respect for the laws of nature and the sacred hunt.For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for anything I have done, nor will I ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level of understanding that transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on anyone who dares to fight against injustice.For freedom and respect,Christopher "Dirt" McIntosh Peter H Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 hi peter, about two weeks ago, i got an email, which i have deleted now. but it said something like, ElF prisoner commits suicide in jail only after one month of being there. It said that he was in a jail in Flagstaff, Arizona, and that he had died by putting a plastic bag over his head. anyway, some vegan people on the internet, suggested that this might possibly be sabotage(murder) by a guard, so as to set an example for the rest of people, contemplatin such behaviours. I am not sure, either way, but find this interesting. I wish not to spread rumors, it would be interesting to find out more to about what really happened. , peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote: > > I think that this is a realy well put together statement, and I feel sorry that he has been given such a long stretch for torching an empty building, seems scandalous. Murderers, and nonces have got less, I supose the system must be trying to make an example of him. I hope there are appeals going on............this stinks. > > The Valley Vegan............ > > " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...> wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do not think that this give him a right to what he has done. He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash? My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in. And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one person who used violence against violence. Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. Nikki , " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...> wrote: > > > This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF and ELF, 23 years old. > he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. > > imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson > > > Sentencing Statement: > Dec 16th > Re: United States v. Christopher McIntosh > (released to the Seattle media) > > > The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio- economic imbalance in the > United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my environment as a child, in > my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not implying that my childhood > experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life experience so far has been a > source of deep resentment toward the system. The " civilization " that is set up to make a > situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. > > I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in which both parents worked > to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around me in this system > called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction with what I came to see as > the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, I began to see how working > class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as " batteries to be > replaced " , when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer serious depression. > > Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected school for what it is, a tool > for training the young to become efficient machines in a system that will never let them > fly. > > A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of 10th grade. At age 16, I > was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became a sub-human in the eyes > of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects of state repression and > America's caste system. > > What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and politicians, I will never forgive > or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way we wish because of this > power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must directly attack it and the > corporate backing of that system. > > I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that petitioning, protesting > and other methods that did not include direct action were either too slow or completely > ineffective. > > In the present corporate climate, " anything goes " is the corporations' philosophy, no > matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that product. This > attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an exploitative and sociopathic assault, > on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. > > My specific grievances against McDonalds include: > > > 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless animals. > > 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and specifically marketed to lower > class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy food. > > 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable garbage that pollutes the > body of the goddess Mother Earth. > > 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to feed cattle and other > animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and unsustainable. > > 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has caused the alienation of the > human animal from the " laws of nature " and the sacred aspects of meat consumption. > > 6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives and capitalizes on our > suffering. > > Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to national security with > bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the threat posed by > McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot in the tradition of my > lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, sit by silently while Mother > Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as animals are tortured to death > and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by the terrorists of the > corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing. > > We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a mentality in which the > consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our respect for the laws > of nature and the sacred hunt. > > For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for anything I have done, nor will I > ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level of understanding that > transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on anyone who dares to > fight against injustice. > > For freedom and respect, > Christopher " Dirt " McIntosh > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 hi Nikki, A few years ago,(i think in 2003) a group of Anarchists set fire to a Mcdonald's in Paris. They went to jail, And within a month, they built up a brand new Mcdonald's in it's place. I would personally never set fire to anything. It is just not in me to do so. However, I do understand where these people are coming from. I do know some people who are in the Alf movement and all they do is rescues, they have not however gone to the point of setting fire to any building. Just rescues, nor has anyone ever been hurt. I believe that these people (mostly young) feel powerless and are basically saying F**K the system. I understand them. I was once a scared and unloved teenager who wore a mask of toughness and anger, but was basically a good person inside with a strong sense of what's wrong and right. I feel that the MEDIA never tells the other side of the story.. why is only their form of violence acknowledged, why is only one form of violence legitimate? I feel that they never expose the labs in negative light or for what they are, or why someone would feel a need to do this. If I wasn't so busy with my two kiddies and school, I would probably be one of those tireless activist who believes that information is the key to changing things. I try to attend animals rights functions in my town. Animals have no use for vegans in jail.. Animals need free and active vegans. -anouk , " earthstrm " <earthstorm@c...> wrote: > > While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do > not think that this give him a right to what he has done. > > He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. > Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives > of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who > worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that > lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed > the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash? > > My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building > that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have > destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in. > > And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not > too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at > peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those > who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one > person who used violence against violence. > > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? > > Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. > > Nikki > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hi Anouk, Very well put on all accounts! Nikki , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato@e...> wrote: > > hi Nikki, > > A few years ago,(i think in 2003) a group of Anarchists set fire to a > Mcdonald's > in Paris. > They went to jail, > And within a month, they built up a brand new Mcdonald's in it's place. > > I would personally never set fire to anything. It is just not in me to > do so. However, I do understand where these people are coming from. > > I do know some people who are in the Alf movement and all they do is > rescues, they have not however gone to the point of setting fire to > any building. Just rescues, nor has anyone ever been hurt. > > I believe that these people (mostly young) feel powerless and are > basically saying F**K the system. > I understand them. I was once a scared and unloved teenager who wore > a mask of toughness and anger, but was basically a good person inside > with a strong sense of what's wrong and right. > > I feel that the MEDIA never tells the other side of the story.. why > is only their form of violence acknowledged, > why is only one form of violence legitimate? I feel that they never > expose the labs in negative light or for what they are, or why someone > would feel a need to do this. > > If I wasn't so busy with my two kiddies and school, I would probably > be one of those tireless activist who believes that > information is the key to changing things. I try to attend animals > rights functions in my town. > > Animals have no use for vegans in jail.. Animals need free and active > vegans. > > -anouk > > > , " earthstrm " <earthstorm@c...> wrote: > > > > While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do > > not think that this give him a right to what he has done. > > > > He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. > > Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives > > of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who > > worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that > > lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed > > the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash? > > > > My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building > > that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have > > destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in. > > > > And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not > > too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at > > peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those > > who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one > > person who used violence against violence. > > > > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? > > > > Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. > > > > Nikki > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Stop ranting Nikki, I disagree, all those peaceful protests probably didnt get half the publicity that his one action did.Not that I think it achieved much in real terms. The insurance covered any damage, and they will probably build a bigger one any way! Its hard to say if any lives were actually put in danger, how close the building was to others etc, we just dont know all the facts. I certainly wouldnt condone any action that did put anyone at risk. The Valley Vegan..............earthstrm <earthstorm wrote: While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do not think that this give him a right to what he has done.He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash?My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in.And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one person who used violence against violence.Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way?Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. :)Nikki , "zurumato@e..." wrote:>> > This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF and ELF, 23 years old.> he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. > > imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson> > > Sentencing Statement: > Dec 16th> Re: United States v. Christopher McIntosh> (released to the Seattle media) > > > The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio-economic imbalance in the > United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my environment as a child, in > my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not implying that my childhood > experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life experience so far has been a > source of deep resentment toward the system. The "civilization" that is set up to make a > situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. > > I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in which both parents worked > to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around me in this system > called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction with what I came to see as > the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, I began to see how working > class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as "batteries to be> replaced", when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer serious depression. > > Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected school for what it is, a tool > for training the young to become efficient machines in a system that will never let them > fly. > > A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of 10th grade. At age 16, I > was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became a sub-human in the eyes > of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects of state repression and > America's caste system. > > What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and politicians, I will never forgive > or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way we wish because of this > power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must directly attack it and the > corporate backing of that system. > > I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that petitioning, protesting > and other methods that did not include direct action were either too slow or completely > ineffective. > > In the present corporate climate, "anything goes" is the corporations' philosophy, no > matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that product. This > attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an exploitative and sociopathic assault, > on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. > > My specific grievances against McDonalds include: > > > 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless animals. > > 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and specifically marketed to lower > class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy food. > > 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable garbage that pollutes the > body of the goddess Mother Earth. > > 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to feed cattle and other > animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and unsustainable. > > 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has caused the alienation of the > human animal from the "laws of nature" and the sacred aspects of meat consumption.> > 6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives and capitalizes on our > suffering.> > Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to national security with > bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the threat posed by > McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot in the tradition of my > lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, sit by silently while Mother > Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as animals are tortured to death > and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by the terrorists of the > corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing.> > We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a mentality in which the > consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our respect for the laws > of nature and the sacred hunt.> > For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for anything I have done, nor will I > ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level of understanding that > transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on anyone who dares to > fight against injustice.> > For freedom and respect,> Christopher "Dirt" McIntosh>To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I will not stop ranting, tis my right. I will however agree that his actions prob did get more publicity. But was it all the right publicity? I would rather have 1,000 peaceful protests to match the publicity of one fire that sinks me down to their violence level. I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me at all. I find it is the only way to see all sides. But please don't ask me VV to not say my thoughts. Tis not really fair my friend. And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately putting lives at risk. Nikki , peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote: > > Stop ranting Nikki, I disagree, all those peaceful protests probably didnt get half the publicity that his one action did.Not that I think it achieved much in real terms. The insurance covered any damage, and they will probably build a bigger one any way! Its hard to say if any lives were actually put in danger, how close the building was to others etc, we just dont know all the facts. I certainly wouldnt condone any action that did put anyone at risk. > > The Valley Vegan.............. > > earthstrm <earthstorm@c...> wrote: > While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do > not think that this give him a right to what he has done. > > He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. > Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives > of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who > worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that > lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed > the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash? > > My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building > that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have > destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in. > > And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not > too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at > peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those > who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one > person who used violence against violence. > > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? > > Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. > > Nikki > > , " zurumato@e... " > wrote: > > > > > > This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF > and ELF, 23 years old. > > he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced > in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty > McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. > > > > imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson > > > > > > Sentencing Statement: > > Dec 16th > > Re: United States v. Christopher McIntosh > > (released to the Seattle media) > > > > > > The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio- > economic imbalance in the > > United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my > environment as a child, in > > my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not > implying that my childhood > > experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life > experience so far has been a > > source of deep resentment toward the system. The " civilization " > that is set up to make a > > situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. > > > > I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in > which both parents worked > > to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around > me in this system > > called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction > with what I came to see as > > the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, > I began to see how working > > class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as " batteries to be > > replaced " , when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer > serious depression. > > > > Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected > school for what it is, a tool > > for training the young to become efficient machines in a system > that will never let them > > fly. > > > > A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of > 10th grade. At age 16, I > > was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became > a sub-human in the eyes > > of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects > of state repression and > > America's caste system. > > > > What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and > politicians, I will never forgive > > or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way > we wish because of this > > power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must > directly attack it and the > > corporate backing of that system. > > > > I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that > petitioning, protesting > > and other methods that did not include direct action were either > too slow or completely > > ineffective. > > > > In the present corporate climate, " anything goes " is the > corporations' philosophy, no > > matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that > product. This > > attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an > exploitative and sociopathic assault, > > on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. > > > > My specific grievances against McDonalds include: > > > > > > 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless > animals. > > > > 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and > specifically marketed to lower > > class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy > food. > > > > 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable > garbage that pollutes the > > body of the goddess Mother Earth. > > > > 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to > feed cattle and other > > animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and > unsustainable. > > > > 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has > caused the alienation of the > > human animal from the " laws of nature " and the sacred aspects of > meat consumption. > > > > 6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives > and capitalizes on our > > suffering. > > > > Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to > national security with > > bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the > threat posed by > > McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot > in the tradition of my > > lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, > sit by silently while Mother > > Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as > animals are tortured to death > > and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by > the terrorists of the > > corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing. > > > > We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a > mentality in which the > > consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our > respect for the laws > > of nature and the sacred hunt. > > > > For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for > anything I have done, nor will I > > ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level > of understanding that > > transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on > anyone who dares to > > fight against injustice. > > > > For freedom and respect, > > Christopher " Dirt " McIntosh > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 O.K. Rant away, I never said that you shouldnt stop saying your thoughts, just to stop ranting, it aint good for your health! The Valley Vegan................... The Arsonist had oddily shaped feet................Ron Burgundyearthstrm <earthstorm wrote: I will not stop ranting, tis my right. I will however agree that his actions prob did get more publicity. But was it all the right publicity?I would rather have 1,000 peaceful protests to match the publicity of one fire that sinks me down to their violence level.I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me at all. I find it is the only way to see all sides. But please don't ask me VV to not say my thoughts. Tis not really fair my friend. :)And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately putting lives at risk.Nikki , peter hurd wrote:>> Stop ranting Nikki, I disagree, all those peaceful protests probably didnt get half the publicity that his one action did.Not that I think it achieved much in real terms. The insurance covered any damage, and they will probably build a bigger one any way! Its hard to say if any lives were actually put in danger, how close the building was to others etc, we just dont know all the facts. I certainly wouldnt condone any action that did put anyone at risk.> > The Valley Vegan..............> > earthstrm wrote:> While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do > not think that this give him a right to what he has done.> > He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. > Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives > of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who > worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that > lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed > the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash?> > My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building > that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have > destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in.> > And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not > too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at > peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those > who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one > person who used violence against violence.> > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way?> > Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. > > Nikki> > , "zurumato@e..." > wrote:> >> > > > This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF > and ELF, 23 years old.> > he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced > in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty > McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. > > > > imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson> > > > > > Sentencing Statement: > > Dec 16th> > Re: United States v. Christopher McIntosh> > (released to the Seattle media) > > > > > > The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio-> economic imbalance in the > > United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my > environment as a child, in > > my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not > implying that my childhood > > experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life > experience so far has been a > > source of deep resentment toward the system. The "civilization" > that is set up to make a > > situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. > > > > I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in > which both parents worked > > to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around > me in this system > > called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction > with what I came to see as > > the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, > I began to see how working > > class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as "batteries to be> > replaced", when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer > serious depression. > > > > Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected > school for what it is, a tool > > for training the young to become efficient machines in a system > that will never let them > > fly. > > > > A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of > 10th grade. At age 16, I > > was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became > a sub-human in the eyes > > of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects > of state repression and > > America's caste system. > > > > What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and > politicians, I will never forgive > > or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way > we wish because of this > > power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must > directly attack it and the > > corporate backing of that system. > > > > I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that > petitioning, protesting > > and other methods that did not include direct action were either > too slow or completely > > ineffective. > > > > In the present corporate climate, "anything goes" is the > corporations' philosophy, no > > matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that > product. This > > attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an > exploitative and sociopathic assault, > > on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. > > > > My specific grievances against McDonalds include: > > > > > > 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless > animals. > > > > 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and > specifically marketed to lower > > class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy > food. > > > > 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable > garbage that pollutes the > > body of the goddess Mother Earth. > > > > 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to > feed cattle and other > > animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and > unsustainable. > > > > 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has > caused the alienation of the > > human animal from the "laws of nature" and the sacred aspects of > meat consumption.> > > > 6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives > and capitalizes on our > > suffering.> > > > Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to > national security with > > bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the > threat posed by > > McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot > in the tradition of my > > lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, > sit by silently while Mother > > Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as > animals are tortured to death > > and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by > the terrorists of the > > corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing.> > > > We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a > mentality in which the > > consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our > respect for the laws > > of nature and the sacred hunt.> > > > For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for > anything I have done, nor will I > > ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level > of understanding that > > transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on > anyone who dares to > > fight against injustice.> > > > For freedom and respect,> > Christopher "Dirt" McIntosh> >> > > > > > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I don't know what the normal sentences are in the States but it would seem a little severe. Over here murderers and rapists don't get 8 years. Jo - zurumato veganchat Sunday, January 22, 2006 4:34 AM Some Insight This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF and ELF, 23 years old. he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson Sentencing Statement: Dec 16thRe: United States v. Christopher McIntosh(released to the Seattle media) The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio-economic imbalance in the United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my environment as a child, in my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not implying that my childhood experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life experience so far has been a source of deep resentment toward the system. The "civilization" that is set up to make a situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in which both parents worked to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around me in this system called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction with what I came to see as the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, I began to see how working class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as "batteries to bereplaced", when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer serious depression. Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected school for what it is, a tool for training the young to become efficient machines in a system that will never let them fly. A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of 10th grade. At age 16, I was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became a sub-human in the eyes of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects of state repression and America's caste system. What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and politicians, I will never forgive or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way we wish because of this power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must directly attack it and the corporate backing of that system. I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that petitioning, protesting and other methods that did not include direct action were either too slow or completely ineffective. In the present corporate climate, "anything goes" is the corporations' philosophy, no matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that product. This attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an exploitative and sociopathic assault, on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. My specific grievances against McDonalds include: 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless animals. 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and specifically marketed to lower class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy food. 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable garbage that pollutes the body of the goddess Mother Earth. 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to feed cattle and other animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and unsustainable. 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has caused the alienation of the human animal from the "laws of nature" and the sacred aspects of meat consumption.6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives and capitalizes on our suffering.Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to national security with bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the threat posed by McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot in the tradition of my lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, sit by silently while Mother Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as animals are tortured to death and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by the terrorists of the corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing.We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a mentality in which the consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our respect for the laws of nature and the sacred hunt.For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for anything I have done, nor will I ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level of understanding that transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on anyone who dares to fight against injustice.For freedom and respect,Christopher "Dirt" McIntosh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 It would be quite likely. Prison guards appear sometimes to benot the most caring people, and if you have a meat-eater who is also a nutcase then he may well decide to murder an animal rights person. Jo - " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato Sunday, January 22, 2006 5:01 PM Re: Some Insight > > hi peter, > > about two weeks ago, i got an email, which i have deleted now. > > but it said something like, ElF prisoner commits suicide in jail > > only after one month of being there. > > It said that he was in a jail in Flagstaff, Arizona, and that he > had died by putting a plastic bag over his head. > > anyway, some vegan people on the internet, suggested that this > might possibly be sabotage(murder) by a guard, so as to set an example > for the rest of people, contemplatin such behaviours. > > I am not sure, either way, but find this interesting. > > I wish not to spread rumors, it would be interesting to find out more > to about what really happened. > > > > , peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote: > > > > I think that this is a realy well put together statement, and I feel > sorry that he has been given such a long stretch for torching an empty > building, seems scandalous. Murderers, and nonces have got less, I > supose the system must be trying to make an example of him. I hope > there are appeals going on............this stinks. > > > > The Valley Vegan............ > > > > " zurumato@e... " <zurumato@e...> wrote: To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hi Nikki Such a good statement :-) Jo > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 I think this is because the vast majority of people do not care much about animals. They eat them, wear them, want their chemicals and medicines tested on them. The average person just does not care - so to the majority of people it is seen to be good to do these things, and bad to stop them being done. This is not right, but I think it is the way things are. Jo > I feel that the MEDIA never tells the other side of the story.. why > is only their form of violence acknowledged, > why is only one form of violence legitimate? I feel that they never > expose the labs in negative light or for what they are, or why someone > would feel a need to do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Was his action worth eight years of his life? Did he achieve anything? Did he achieve anything more than writing a letter would have done? other than getting put in prison. Jo - peter hurd Sunday, January 22, 2006 8:01 PM Re: Re: Some Insight Stop ranting Nikki, I disagree, all those peaceful protests probably didnt get half the publicity that his one action did.Not that I think it achieved much in real terms. The insurance covered any damage, and they will probably build a bigger one any way! Its hard to say if any lives were actually put in danger, how close the building was to others etc, we just dont know all the facts. I certainly wouldnt condone any action that did put anyone at risk. The Valley Vegan..............earthstrm <earthstorm wrote: While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do not think that this give him a right to what he has done.He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash?My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in.And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one person who used violence against violence.Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way?Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. :)Nikki , "zurumato@e..." wrote:>> > This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF and ELF, 23 years old.> he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. > > imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson> > > Sentencing Statement: > Dec 16th> Re: United States v. Christopher McIntosh> (released to the Seattle media) > > > The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio-economic imbalance in the > United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my environment as a child, in > my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not implying that my childhood > experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life experience so far has been a > source of deep resentment toward the system. The "civilization" that is set up to make a > situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. > > I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in which both parents worked > to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around me in this system > called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction with what I came to see as > the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, I began to see how working > class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as "batteries to be> replaced", when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer serious depression. > > Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected school for what it is, a tool > for training the young to become efficient machines in a system that will never let them > fly. > > A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of 10th grade. At age 16, I > was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became a sub-human in the eyes > of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects of state repression and > America's caste system. > > What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and politicians, I will never forgive > or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way we wish because of this > power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must directly attack it and the > corporate backing of that system. > > I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that petitioning, protesting > and other methods that did not include direct action were either too slow or completely > ineffective. > > In the present corporate climate, "anything goes" is the corporations' philosophy, no > matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that product. This > attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an exploitative and sociopathic assault, > on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. > > My specific grievances against McDonalds include: > > > 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless animals. > > 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and specifically marketed to lower > class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy food. > > 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable garbage that pollutes the > body of the goddess Mother Earth. > > 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to feed cattle and other > animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and unsustainable. > > 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has caused the alienation of the > human animal from the "laws of nature" and the sacred aspects of meat consumption.> > 6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives and capitalizes on our > suffering.> > Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to national security with > bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the threat posed by > McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot in the tradition of my > lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, sit by silently while Mother > Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as animals are tortured to death > and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by the terrorists of the > corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing.> > We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a mentality in which the > consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our respect for the laws > of nature and the sacred hunt.> > For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for anything I have done, nor will I > ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level of understanding that > transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on anyone who dares to > fight against injustice.> > For freedom and respect,> Christopher "Dirt" McIntosh>To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 ..... and polluting the atmosphere - which I thought we were all against. Jo And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately putting lives at risk. Nikki , peter hurd <swpgh01@t...> wrote: > > Stop ranting Nikki, I disagree, all those peaceful protests probably didnt get half the publicity that his one action did.Not that I think it achieved much in real terms. The insurance covered any damage, and they will probably build a bigger one any way! Its hard to say if any lives were actually put in danger, how close the building was to others etc, we just dont know all the facts. I certainly wouldnt condone any action that did put anyone at risk. > > The Valley Vegan.............. > > earthstrm <earthstorm@c...> wrote: > While I certainly sympathize with him and agree on many points, I do > not think that this give him a right to what he has done. > > He has no right to destroy property and put many lives in danger. > Not just the lives of those near the burning building, nor the lives > of the firefighters putting it out, nor the lives of those who > worked there to feed their families, but what of the animals that > lived by or even in the buidling? The birds flying by that consumed > the smoke? The mouse hole that is full of ash? > > My point here is in thinking that his destruction of a sole building > that will easily be rebuilt will help his cause, he may have > destroyed many other things in the process he claims he believes in. > > And in turn, he gives all those who protest in peace a bad name. Not > too mention that authorities tend to be more on edge than need be at > peaceful protests because of actions such as these. Now all those > who protest against say McDonald's are compared against this one > person who used violence against violence. > > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? > > Just my rantings and ravings this fine afternoon. > > Nikki > > , " zurumato@e... " > wrote: > > > > > > This is a letter written by Chris McIntosh, he is a member of ALF > and ELF, 23 years old. > > he has pleaded guilty to one count of federal arson and sentenced > in December to eight to ten years for a fire set at an empty > McDonald's, which caused $5,000 in damage. > > > > imprisioned in Sea Tac, for Arson > > > > > > Sentencing Statement: > > Dec 16th > > Re: United States v. Christopher McIntosh > > (released to the Seattle media) > > > > > > The situation I was born into clearly represents the socio- > economic imbalance in the > > United States. Today, I continue to feel reverberations, from my > environment as a child, in > > my relationships, and in how I interact with others. I am not > implying that my childhood > > experiences caused me to commit this arson, but that my life > experience so far has been a > > source of deep resentment toward the system. The " civilization " > that is set up to make a > > situation, like the one I came from happen to millions of others. > > > > I was adopted, at the age of two, into a working class family in > which both parents worked > > to make ends meet. I grew up seeing poverty and excess all around > me in this system > > called civilization. I also grew up with a serious dissatisfaction > with what I came to see as > > the plasticity of the system and its institutions. As I got older, > I began to see how working > > class communities are used by the bourgeoisie as " batteries to be > > replaced " , when they lose efficiency. This caused me to suffer > serious depression. > > > > Around age 14, I discovered the anarchist critique and rejected > school for what it is, a tool > > for training the young to become efficient machines in a system > that will never let them > > fly. > > > > A few years later my home life deteriorated and I dropped out of > 10th grade. At age 16, I > > was out on the road, living on the streets. In this way, I became > a sub-human in the eyes > > of the system, but I was able to witness and feel the full effects > of state repression and > > America's caste system. > > > > What I have felt at the hands of police, property holders and > politicians, I will never forgive > > or forget. This cemented my militancy. If we cannot live the way > we wish because of this > > power structure's over-reaching authoritarianism, then we must > directly attack it and the > > corporate backing of that system. > > > > I committed this arson for good reasons. I learned very early that > petitioning, protesting > > and other methods that did not include direct action were either > too slow or completely > > ineffective. > > > > In the present corporate climate, " anything goes " is the > corporations' philosophy, no > > matter how harmful the end product or the method of producing that > product. This > > attitude is a threat to national security, as well as an > exploitative and sociopathic assault, > > on animals who are tortured, and the wild which is obliterated. > > > > My specific grievances against McDonalds include: > > > > > > 1. The company's factory farms torture and kill defenseless > animals. > > > > 2. The company's products are nutritionally harmful and > specifically marketed to lower > > class people who suffer physically from eating this unhealthy > food. > > > > 3. The company generates billions of tons of non-biodegradable > garbage that pollutes the > > body of the goddess Mother Earth. > > > > 4. The company promotes the use of massive amounts of grain to > feed cattle and other > > animals, giving rise to an agriculture that is wasteful and > unsustainable. > > > > 5. The rise of fast food and prepackaged processed meats has > caused the alienation of the > > human animal from the " laws of nature " and the sacred aspects of > meat consumption. > > > > 6. McDonald's is a figurehead of the corporate world that thrives > and capitalizes on our > > suffering. > > > > Unlike the Bush Administration, which meets perceived threats to > national security with > > bombs, fire, and the murder of innocents, I have responded to the > threat posed by > > McDonalds with non-violent action. Am I a terrorist or a patriot > in the tradition of my > > lower class forefathers? Should we, the patriots of the ELF/ALF, > sit by silently while Mother > > Earth is raped, pillaged and destroyed? Should we watch, as > animals are tortured to death > > and separated from the freedom, which is their natural right, by > the terrorists of the > > corporate world? I wasn't able to sit by idly and do nothing. > > > > We must fight for the liberation of all life and a return to a > mentality in which the > > consumption of meat and our interaction with the world mirrors our > respect for the laws > > of nature and the sacred hunt. > > > > For these reasons, I cannot say truthfully that I am sorry for > anything I have done, nor will I > > ask for forgiveness. However, I do ask that you meet me on a level > of understanding that > > transcends social stigmas and mud that the power structure puts on > anyone who dares to > > fight against injustice. > > > > For freedom and respect, > > Christopher " Dirt " McIntosh > > > To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Jo Thank you! I just don't see how acting out in violence prevents or counter-acts violence. BB Nikki , " jo " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote: > > Hi Nikki > > Such a good statement :-) > > Jo > > > Aren't we suppose to stand for a better way? > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Hi Jo I agree. And it is more than just wood and stone burning. It is chemicals, plastics, and plenty other toxins to fill the air. Even if no living thing is directly harmed by the flames and smoke inhalation itself, they most certainly will be harmed by the toxins in the air. And we have enough of those at present. BB Nikki , " jo " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote: > > .... and polluting the atmosphere - which I thought we were all against. > > Jo > > And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately > putting lives at risk. > > Nikki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Those are my thoughts too Nikki. How many buildings have asbestos - fibres of which will be released and floating in the air for everyone to breathe in. Jo - " earthstrm " <earthstorm Monday, January 23, 2006 12:14 PM Re: Some Insight > Hi Jo > > I agree. > > And it is more than just wood and stone burning. It is chemicals, > plastics, and plenty other toxins to fill the air. > > Even if no living thing is directly harmed by the flames and smoke > inhalation itself, they most certainly will be harmed by the toxins in > the air. And we have enough of those at present. > > BB > Nikki > > > , " jo " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote: > > > > .... and polluting the atmosphere - which I thought we were all > against. > > > > Jo > > > > And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately > > putting lives at risk. > > > > Nikki To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 , " jo " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote: > > Those are my thoughts too Nikki. How many buildings have asbestos - fibres > of which will be released and floating in the air for everyone to breathe > in. A lot. I recently had an asbestos survey done on my flat. I live in a building owned by a housing association and the men who did the survry told me the goverment is trying to survey all rented accomodation for asbestos. I asked when asbestos stopped being used and they said it hasn't, because asbestos materials are still being installed by dodgy builders from old stock. Even the less harmful asbestos such as asbestolux is still around. And as you know its only harmful when it is broken into and the particles get into the air. > > Jo > > - > " earthstrm " <earthstorm@c...> > > Monday, January 23, 2006 12:14 PM > Re: Some Insight > > > > Hi Jo > > > > I agree. > > > > And it is more than just wood and stone burning. It is chemicals, > > plastics, and plenty other toxins to fill the air. > > > > Even if no living thing is directly harmed by the flames and smoke > > inhalation itself, they most certainly will be harmed by the toxins in > > the air. And we have enough of those at present. > > > > BB > > Nikki > > > > > > , " jo " <jo.heartwork@g...> wrote: > > > > > > .... and polluting the atmosphere - which I thought we were all > > against. > > > > > > Jo > > > > > > And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately > > > putting lives at risk. > > > > > > Nikki > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Asbestos doesnt need a fire to get into the air, more is probably released unknowingly ( or cost cuttingly) by demolition. The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Those are my thoughts too Nikki. How many buildings have asbestos - fibresof which will be released and floating in the air for everyone to breathein.Jo-"earthstrm" Monday, January 23, 2006 12:14 PM Re: Some Insight> Hi Jo>> I agree.>> And it is more than just wood and stone burning. It is chemicals,> plastics, and plenty other toxins to fill the air.>> Even if no living thing is directly harmed by the flames and smoke> inhalation itself, they most certainly will be harmed by the toxins in> the air. And we have enough of those at present.>> BB> Nikki>>> , "jo" wrote:> >> > .... and polluting the atmosphere - which I thought we were all> against.> >> > Jo> >> > And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately> > putting lives at risk.> >> > Nikki>>>>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Jo need to add to it though. My dad said that when London was bombed you could see the asbestos in the air. Jo - peter hurd Monday, January 23, 2006 8:07 PM Re: Re: Some Insight Asbestos doesnt need a fire to get into the air, more is probably released unknowingly ( or cost cuttingly) by demolition. The Valley Vegan.............jo <jo.heartwork wrote: Those are my thoughts too Nikki. How many buildings have asbestos - fibresof which will be released and floating in the air for everyone to breathein.Jo-"earthstrm" Monday, January 23, 2006 12:14 PM Re: Some Insight> Hi Jo>> I agree.>> And it is more than just wood and stone burning. It is chemicals,> plastics, and plenty other toxins to fill the air.>> Even if no living thing is directly harmed by the flames and smoke> inhalation itself, they most certainly will be harmed by the toxins in> the air. And we have enough of those at present.>> BB> Nikki>>> , "jo" wrote:> >> > .... and polluting the atmosphere - which I thought we were all> against.> >> > Jo> >> > And the minute you light an uncontrolled fire, you are definately> > putting lives at risk.> >> > Nikki>>>>>>> To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 I think a big part of it is convienence. It's more convienent to not do anything and just enjoy their lives without making changes. It's also easy to ignore what it going on, when you want to. jo <jo.heartwork wrote: I think this is because the vast majority of people do not care much aboutanimals. They eat them, wear them, want their chemicals and medicinestested on them. The average person just does not care - so to the majorityof people it is seen to be good to do these things, and bad to stop thembeing done.This is not right, but I think it is the way things are.Jo> I feel that the MEDIA never tells the other side of the story.. why> is only their form of violence acknowledged,> why is only one form of violence legitimate? I feel that they never> expose the labs in negative light or for what they are, or why someone> would feel a need to do this. Photos – Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and we’ll bind it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.