Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 hi all, I feel that I need support from you guys. I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, however, they are always talking about bee keeping, which I then said "i don't think that bees are thinking about humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies" all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. They are talking about the "wheel of life" and the "natural chain of life" and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. Thanks, anouk - Nanci Kuykendall magic_gardening 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM [magic gardening] Diets Those supporting a more balanced view are doing sobeautifully without my help, but I just wanted to saya few words on this topic. All the arguments hereregarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior arebased on science and studies. For every such argumentwe could all easily come up with equally valid andcompelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. It's a stalemate. However, I just wanted to point out that this is apagan list, and the person arguing their fanaticalvegetarian views seems to worship at the altar ofscience. According to what they have written here,they have disavowed a large portion of theirconnectedness to life because it causes them misplacedguilt. You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying outloud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out itwouldn't change your physiology. >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores,>like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are>very short not elongated. That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores.We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never beenhunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weaponsas lions do. We've used our brains as our primaryweapon and so hunted using tools like sticks androcks.Our large brains also require animal fats for propergrowth and indeed evolved because of this diet ofanimal fats. There is much other physiologicalevidence as well. Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treatanimals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel oflife which includes death. Out of control meatconsumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. Thereason for this out of control meat consumption isthat as a species we generally like meat, find that ittastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so weseek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. That's the nature of our species in general.If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, thengreat! But that doesn't make you morally superior. Ifeel that further distancing ourselves from the wheelof life by raising ourselves up high on a morally selfrighteous pedestal doesn't address the problems without of control meat consumption and factory farming,and indeed creates a divissivness between people whichis counterproductive to communication and to fosteringcultural change.Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet,despite what you may think or what your sources maysay. It's about your specific physiology, what your"people" have eaten for many generations, what you'redesigned to eat, and taking into account intolerancesand allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, orIcelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climatecultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropicalcultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising sincethey traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. Amodern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavilyprocessed products, which are created in ways that areneither sustainable nor environmentally sound, andoften lacks good nutritional variety because they relytoo heavily on certain staples such as soy. Pleasenotice that I said "usually" and "often." >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kickingand >screaming by predators here in the US. Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live inYellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elkor bison variety, occassionally of the moredomesticated variety as well, when they venture out ofthe confines of the park. They still live happily inAlaska and some other places in the world as well. Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of alarge predator which live in my neighborhood. We'vedone away with most of our big predators in amisguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe.>you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to>reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill>weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all thetime. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned(war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it'scounter to the society in which the killer lives andthey then are considered criminal. Often this line ismurky and the killing is sanctioned in their culturebut not in the culture of their victims (such as actsof war and terrorism.) Generally their targets areweaker humans than themselves.From a spiritual point of view however, indigenouspeoples tend to believe that animals do allowthemselves to be killed, not because they want to die,but because they know they will die at some point andwhen asked properly and shown the proper respect andlove they accept the role of their body's flesh asfood for the hunter, knowing that their spirit willreturn to the spiritworld from whence they came, andthat the hunter themselves will one day be food aswell, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest ofthe creatures of the soil if they are not killed be alarge animal as food outright. The cycle is honoredand revered and emotion, humility and gratitude isfelt for the life given.This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is outof fashion in our culture, mainly due toJudeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that weare above animals, and even above human non-beliverslike us, and the modern fear and loathing of death inall forms. It's also not "easy" or "fun" and in aculture as obsessed with entertainment and selfindulgence as ours, things that are not easy and funare not popular. We've done away with most largepredators so we don't often die that way anymore, andwith embalming and modern burial methods we don'toften become food for scavengers or the soil dwellerseither.>I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain>argument to justify the need to keep billions of>sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing>them before their natural lifespan would dictate,>boiling many alive, just to eat their torturedbodies.No one was justifying spiritually void modern factoryfarming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud thatyou cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking.>The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter.Again, that "fact" is highly debatable and easilyrefutable.>Destroying another being causes pain, Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or myfamily to be an act of destruction. We give back tothe land with the waste we process out of our bodies(since we use a composting toilet system) and theanimal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us,carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part ofall living things, brother and sister to all in theweb of life, including the life we see in water,stone, air and other "scientifically" inanimate"things." We use all these things to live and we giveback in many ways.> A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the onlyanimal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big"sport", >but a least they die instantly. Are you talking about human comsumption of meat orsport hunting? These are two radically differenttopics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill.They are built for it, and you would be assuming thatall predators are devoid of emotion if you assume thatthey derive no pleasure in making a kill, that theyfeel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successfulend, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meatto sustain themselves and their young. Further, manypredators also kill what they cannot eat, although notanywhere near to the extent of man. We are after allcreatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill forpleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are nothungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernablereason other than that they don't like them. Thereare many other examples. I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I dounderstand that the drive to do so comes from ourpredatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more becausethey have a great deal more testosterone than womendo, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sporthunting is an example of the excess of our modernsociety, as in previous eras it was the province onlyof kings who could waste such time on frivilouspursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eatwhat they kill and only keeping trophies.>I do believe that plants have feelings but not the>same as animals. Plants lack a central nervoussystem >and a brain, both of which are necessary toregister >pain. Ugh...more science worship. The more you know aboutscience the more you can begin to understand how verylittle we do know. Just because we have no way tomeasure or understand how plants preceive things,doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. Itjust means that we have not figured out how to see orprove it. Do you only belive in what you can measureand touch and see with your optic nerve? >I believe that humans are herbivores,Interesting. You throw your god Science out thewindow when he doesn't support your theories.>If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths>would water every time we see a decomposing animal >on the road. You base this assumption on what exactly? Manycarnivores won't touch meat they didn't killthemselves, much less decomposing meat.>We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and >birds alive with our bare teeth. LOL, are you serious? This is your "evidence?">We need to season our meat in order to eat it,Completely untrue. We've developed a taste andtolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable ofingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and manyfolks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steaktar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet?>to me less harm means reducing my negative impact>whenever possible. Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refrainingfrom judging and condeming your fellow humans from aplace of your percieved moral superiority, norbringing your strife and negative energy to a mailinglist about pagan gardening.Nanci K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 only read a part of the reply but..couple responses... first off...sorry to all the pagans on this list....i am in no way trying to offend you..but..worshipping at the altar of science? give me a break... see..here's the thing...religion is a belief system....some are more flexible then others...but...thats wot they are sceince isn't oh..science can be wrong, science can be way out in la la land but..the basic tenets of science are this...QUESTION! science is always suppose to question and probe and reinvent itself does it always? course not....it is a human condition after all, and subject to the same dogmas, issues and foibles of human society its sorta scarey to me to see a more "underground" religion like paganism (which is a dang wide field) fall pray to the same "narrow mindedness" as more mainstream religions.... i think jo, nikki and peter could respond to this much better then me.... as for the teeth ok...gorillas and pandas have more "canine" and sharp teeth then we do...and they are 100% veg... we don't have meat eating teeth...we just don't.... and, look at supposed omnivores....look at things like bears, oppossums, raccoons...now look at their teeth.....look ANYTHING even remotely like ours? no...not even close... sure..we can eat meat.... apparantly, so can cows when you feed it to em.. doesn't really make for a healthy diet...fer either of em circle of life apparantly..there is no compassion or ethics in this so called circle and since we must always fall prey to this circle..lets not change anything...lets not feel for our fellow beings, lets not consider another beings life.... anyone up for rounding up some ppl of another culture, religion, creed, race or society and killing em off? might as well..circle of life and all humans need fat/made our brains big this argument is all the rage lately...every science show on tv dealing with human evolution deals with this.. "our ancestors ate meat, it made us smart" um..yeah...right 1. our remote ancestors ate fruit..leaves...and the occassional bug er lizard...maybe an egg...we originally were a creature that lived in the forest.... 2. ever try and chase down an antelope? catch and eat it with yer bare hands? 3. once humans did discover eating meat..it was originally from scavenging...not very romantic is it 4. look at the corprolite studies from early man sites....little meat consumption 5. neatherthals and erectus ate meat!.. yeah..and they died out 6. meat makes brains big tell that to an elephant er a gorilla at the same time..if that was the main progenitor of brain power, how come we aren't ruled by cats? 7. i personally like to think i'm not a neatherthal 8. modern hunter gatherer tribes... how much meat do they consume? not a whole lot... ever watch a study of some people hunting from hunter gatherer peoples? they spend like 2 days tracking an animal, they chase it for another 2-3 days.... then bring their quarry(maybe) back to the camp, and divide it up amongst everyone..... no such thing as refrigeration.... so..30 odd people get to have antelope bits maybe once a week...maybe.. they rarely study their normal diet....cuz, its just not romantic to watch em gathering roots and fruits and bug spit....... 9. it bloody doesn't matter.....even if we had the same teeth as big cats, we DON"T have to eat meat we can limit another creatures death.suffering sorry..i don't think i'm speaking very clearly er thinking clearly... can i borrow that flower? *goes to window to watch humminbird" "zurumato" Mar 10, 2006 10:04 AM veganchat , Vegan_Animal_Rights FW: [magic gardening] Diets hi all, I feel that I need support from you guys. I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, however, they are always talking about bee keeping, which I then said "i don't think that bees are thinking about humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies" all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. They are talking about the "wheel of life" and the "natural chain of life" and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. Thanks, anouk - Nanci Kuykendall magic_gardening 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM [magic gardening] Diets Those supporting a more balanced view are doing sobeautifully without my help, but I just wanted to saya few words on this topic. All the arguments hereregarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior arebased on science and studies. For every such argumentwe could all easily come up with equally valid andcompelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. It's a stalemate. However, I just wanted to point out that this is apagan list, and the person arguing their fanaticalvegetarian views seems to worship at the altar ofscience. According to what they have written here,they have disavowed a large portion of theirconnectedness to life because it causes them misplacedguilt. You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying outloud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out itwouldn't change your physiology. >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores,>like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are>very short not elongated. That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores.We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never beenhunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weaponsas lions do. We've used our brains as our primaryweapon and so hunted using tools like sticks androcks.Our large brains also require animal fats for propergrowth and indeed evolved because of this diet ofanimal fats. There is much other physiologicalevidence as well. Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treatanimals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel oflife which includes death. Out of control meatconsumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. Thereason for this out of control meat consumption isthat as a species we generally like meat, find that ittastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so weseek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. That's the nature of our species in general.If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, thengreat! But that doesn't make you morally superior. Ifeel that further distancing ourselves from the wheelof life by raising ourselves up high on a morally selfrighteous pedestal doesn't address the problems without of control meat consumption and factory farming,and indeed creates a divissivness between people whichis counterproductive to communication and to fosteringcultural change.Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet,despite what you may think or what your sources maysay. It's about your specific physiology, what your"people" have eaten for many generations, what you'redesigned to eat, and taking into account intolerancesand allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, orIcelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climatecultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropicalcultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising sincethey traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. Amodern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavilyprocessed products, which are created in ways that areneither sustainable nor environmentally sound, andoften lacks good nutritional variety because they relytoo heavily on certain staples such as soy. Pleasenotice that I said "usually" and "often." >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kickingand >screaming by predators here in the US. Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live inYellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elkor bison variety, occassionally of the moredomesticated variety as well, when they venture out ofthe confines of the park. They still live happily inAlaska and some other places in the world as well. Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of alarge predator which live in my neighborhood. We'vedone away with most of our big predators in amisguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe.>you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to>reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill>weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all thetime. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned(war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it'scounter to the society in which the killer lives andthey then are considered criminal. Often this line ismurky and the killing is sanctioned in their culturebut not in the culture of their victims (such as actsof war and terrorism.) Generally their targets areweaker humans than themselves.From a spiritual point of view however, indigenouspeoples tend to believe that animals do allowthemselves to be killed, not because they want to die,but because they know they will die at some point andwhen asked properly and shown the proper respect andlove they accept the role of their body's flesh asfood for the hunter, knowing that their spirit willreturn to the spiritworld from whence they came, andthat the hunter themselves will one day be food aswell, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest ofthe creatures of the soil if they are not killed be alarge animal as food outright. The cycle is honoredand revered and emotion, humility and gratitude isfelt for the life given.This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is outof fashion in our culture, mainly due toJudeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that weare above animals, and even above human non-beliverslike us, and the modern fear and loathing of death inall forms. It's also not "easy" or "fun" and in aculture as obsessed with entertainment and selfindulgence as ours, things that are not easy and funare not popular. We've done away with most largepredators so we don't often die that way anymore, andwith embalming and modern burial methods we don'toften become food for scavengers or the soil dwellerseither.>I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain>argument to justify the need to keep billions of>sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing>them before their natural lifespan would dictate,>boiling many alive, just to eat their torturedbodies.No one was justifying spiritually void modern factoryfarming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud thatyou cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking.>The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter.Again, that "fact" is highly debatable and easilyrefutable.>Destroying another being causes pain, Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or myfamily to be an act of destruction. We give back tothe land with the waste we process out of our bodies(since we use a composting toilet system) and theanimal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us,carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part ofall living things, brother and sister to all in theweb of life, including the life we see in water,stone, air and other "scientifically" inanimate"things." We use all these things to live and we giveback in many ways.> A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the onlyanimal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big"sport", >but a least they die instantly. Are you talking about human comsumption of meat orsport hunting? These are two radically differenttopics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill.They are built for it, and you would be assuming thatall predators are devoid of emotion if you assume thatthey derive no pleasure in making a kill, that theyfeel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successfulend, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meatto sustain themselves and their young. Further, manypredators also kill what they cannot eat, although notanywhere near to the extent of man. We are after allcreatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill forpleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are nothungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernablereason other than that they don't like them. Thereare many other examples. I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I dounderstand that the drive to do so comes from ourpredatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more becausethey have a great deal more testosterone than womendo, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sporthunting is an example of the excess of our modernsociety, as in previous eras it was the province onlyof kings who could waste such time on frivilouspursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eatwhat they kill and only keeping trophies.>I do believe that plants have feelings but not the>same as animals. Plants lack a central nervoussystem >and a brain, both of which are necessary toregister >pain. Ugh...more science worship. The more you know aboutscience the more you can begin to understand how verylittle we do know. Just because we have no way tomeasure or understand how plants preceive things,doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. Itjust means that we have not figured out how to see orprove it. Do you only belive in what you can measureand touch and see with your optic nerve? >I believe that humans are herbivores,Interesting. You throw your god Science out thewindow when he doesn't support your theories.>If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths>would water every time we see a decomposing animal >on the road. You base this assumption on what exactly? Manycarnivores won't touch meat they didn't killthemselves, much less decomposing meat.>We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and >birds alive with our bare teeth. LOL, are you serious? This is your "evidence?">We need to season our meat in order to eat it,Completely untrue. We've developed a taste andtolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable ofingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and manyfolks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steaktar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet?>to me less harm means reducing my negative impact>whenever possible. Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refrainingfrom judging and condeming your fellow humans from aplace of your percieved moral superiority, norbringing your strife and negative energy to a mailinglist about pagan gardening.Nanci K. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hi Anouk~ Sounds like an angry person to me who is upset with something other than you. Possibly guilt. I can understand " keeping " bees so long as those bees are untouched and the honey left alone. Then they are simply giving them a home and in turn the bees help the garden. I wouldn't reply to this woman, that is what she wants. If you do so, you shall only give her the power over the situation and fuel her more. Or reply with a small statement of " Thank you for your answer, I appreciate your honesty. I think we shall agree to have different beliefs and leave it at that. After all, I am not judging you simply asking a question as I have no right to judge another. Thank you for your response, you have helped me to learn more. " And in being so nice, you may anger her even more as she obviously is looking for a fight. But you will be the bigger person. I wouldn't waste anymore energy on her then need be. She is neither close to you nor someone you need to have understand and comfort you. So let it go. Tho I did enjoy the giggle her note to you gave me. But in the end just shook my head. Peter and I were talking at his visit about something similar to this. I said that I could not understand how any Pagan could not be a Vegan or at the least a vegetarian, or even sympathetic to it. It did not seem right to me. But then again, who the heck am I to judge another. I once got into this same debate on a Wiccan group. I did not leave, but I let it go and did not bring it up again. Tho I was threatened with a spice cake. LOL As to whether you should leave or not is up to you. But if you enjoy it there and get good info from it, don't let her chase you away. Just reply nicely as if you could care less. And then actually care less. Just my thoughts! Nikki , " zurumato " <zurumato wrote: > > hi all, > I feel that I need support from you guys. > > I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, > however, they are always talking about bee keeping, > which I then said " i don't think that bees are thinking about > humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies " <<SNIP>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hi Anouk Well, if they are Pagan, then the majority of them should to an ethic of "HARM NONE"... I'd ask them how they justify following such an ethic when their dietary choices do a lot of harm to individual animals, and to the planet in general. All Pagans accept that we should treat the Earth with respect, and it seems deeply hypocritical to me to claim to treat the Earth with respect, and then make dietary choices which are destroying rain forests, creating greenhouse gasses, and basically destroying Mother Gaia. As to whether you want to leave the group - I guess the question is whether you get more enjoyment out of it than you get trouble. BB Peter - zurumato veganchat ; Vegan_Animal_Rights Friday, March 10, 2006 6:04 PM FW: [magic gardening] Diets hi all, I feel that I need support from you guys. I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, however, they are always talking about bee keeping, which I then said "i don't think that bees are thinking about humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies" all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. They are talking about the "wheel of life" and the "natural chain of life" and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. Thanks, anouk - Nanci Kuykendall magic_gardening 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM [magic gardening] Diets Those supporting a more balanced view are doing sobeautifully without my help, but I just wanted to saya few words on this topic. All the arguments hereregarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior arebased on science and studies. For every such argumentwe could all easily come up with equally valid andcompelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. It's a stalemate. However, I just wanted to point out that this is apagan list, and the person arguing their fanaticalvegetarian views seems to worship at the altar ofscience. According to what they have written here,they have disavowed a large portion of theirconnectedness to life because it causes them misplacedguilt. You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying outloud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out itwouldn't change your physiology. >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores,>like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are>very short not elongated. That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores.We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never beenhunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weaponsas lions do. We've used our brains as our primaryweapon and so hunted using tools like sticks androcks.Our large brains also require animal fats for propergrowth and indeed evolved because of this diet ofanimal fats. There is much other physiologicalevidence as well. Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treatanimals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel oflife which includes death. Out of control meatconsumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. Thereason for this out of control meat consumption isthat as a species we generally like meat, find that ittastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so weseek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. That's the nature of our species in general.If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, thengreat! But that doesn't make you morally superior. Ifeel that further distancing ourselves from the wheelof life by raising ourselves up high on a morally selfrighteous pedestal doesn't address the problems without of control meat consumption and factory farming,and indeed creates a divissivness between people whichis counterproductive to communication and to fosteringcultural change.Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet,despite what you may think or what your sources maysay. It's about your specific physiology, what your"people" have eaten for many generations, what you'redesigned to eat, and taking into account intolerancesand allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, orIcelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climatecultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropicalcultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising sincethey traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. Amodern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavilyprocessed products, which are created in ways that areneither sustainable nor environmentally sound, andoften lacks good nutritional variety because they relytoo heavily on certain staples such as soy. Pleasenotice that I said "usually" and "often." >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kickingand >screaming by predators here in the US. Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live inYellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elkor bison variety, occassionally of the moredomesticated variety as well, when they venture out ofthe confines of the park. They still live happily inAlaska and some other places in the world as well. Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of alarge predator which live in my neighborhood. We'vedone away with most of our big predators in amisguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe.>you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to>reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill>weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all thetime. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned(war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it'scounter to the society in which the killer lives andthey then are considered criminal. Often this line ismurky and the killing is sanctioned in their culturebut not in the culture of their victims (such as actsof war and terrorism.) Generally their targets areweaker humans than themselves.From a spiritual point of view however, indigenouspeoples tend to believe that animals do allowthemselves to be killed, not because they want to die,but because they know they will die at some point andwhen asked properly and shown the proper respect andlove they accept the role of their body's flesh asfood for the hunter, knowing that their spirit willreturn to the spiritworld from whence they came, andthat the hunter themselves will one day be food aswell, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest ofthe creatures of the soil if they are not killed be alarge animal as food outright. The cycle is honoredand revered and emotion, humility and gratitude isfelt for the life given.This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is outof fashion in our culture, mainly due toJudeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that weare above animals, and even above human non-beliverslike us, and the modern fear and loathing of death inall forms. It's also not "easy" or "fun" and in aculture as obsessed with entertainment and selfindulgence as ours, things that are not easy and funare not popular. We've done away with most largepredators so we don't often die that way anymore, andwith embalming and modern burial methods we don'toften become food for scavengers or the soil dwellerseither.>I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain>argument to justify the need to keep billions of>sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing>them before their natural lifespan would dictate,>boiling many alive, just to eat their torturedbodies.No one was justifying spiritually void modern factoryfarming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud thatyou cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking.>The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter.Again, that "fact" is highly debatable and easilyrefutable.>Destroying another being causes pain, Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or myfamily to be an act of destruction. We give back tothe land with the waste we process out of our bodies(since we use a composting toilet system) and theanimal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us,carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part ofall living things, brother and sister to all in theweb of life, including the life we see in water,stone, air and other "scientifically" inanimate"things." We use all these things to live and we giveback in many ways.> A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the onlyanimal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big"sport", >but a least they die instantly. Are you talking about human comsumption of meat orsport hunting? These are two radically differenttopics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill.They are built for it, and you would be assuming thatall predators are devoid of emotion if you assume thatthey derive no pleasure in making a kill, that theyfeel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successfulend, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meatto sustain themselves and their young. Further, manypredators also kill what they cannot eat, although notanywhere near to the extent of man. We are after allcreatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill forpleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are nothungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernablereason other than that they don't like them. Thereare many other examples. I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I dounderstand that the drive to do so comes from ourpredatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more becausethey have a great deal more testosterone than womendo, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sporthunting is an example of the excess of our modernsociety, as in previous eras it was the province onlyof kings who could waste such time on frivilouspursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eatwhat they kill and only keeping trophies.>I do believe that plants have feelings but not the>same as animals. Plants lack a central nervoussystem >and a brain, both of which are necessary toregister >pain. Ugh...more science worship. The more you know aboutscience the more you can begin to understand how verylittle we do know. Just because we have no way tomeasure or understand how plants preceive things,doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. Itjust means that we have not figured out how to see orprove it. Do you only belive in what you can measureand touch and see with your optic nerve? >I believe that humans are herbivores,Interesting. You throw your god Science out thewindow when he doesn't support your theories.>If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths>would water every time we see a decomposing animal >on the road. You base this assumption on what exactly? Manycarnivores won't touch meat they didn't killthemselves, much less decomposing meat.>We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and >birds alive with our bare teeth. LOL, are you serious? This is your "evidence?">We need to season our meat in order to eat it,Completely untrue. We've developed a taste andtolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable ofingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and manyfolks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steaktar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet?>to me less harm means reducing my negative impact>whenever possible. Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refrainingfrom judging and condeming your fellow humans from aplace of your percieved moral superiority, norbringing your strife and negative energy to a mailinglist about pagan gardening.Nanci K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hi Fraggle I don't find anything offensive in what you've said - fundamentalists are a problem in all religions - Paganism does have a bit of difficulty as most Pagans don't want to accept that we have fundamentalists amongst us - but we do, and they are just as crazy as those of other religions! BB Peter - fraggle Friday, March 10, 2006 6:35 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets only read a part of the reply but..couple responses... first off...sorry to all the pagans on this list....i am in no way trying to offend you..but..worshipping at the altar of science? give me a break... see..here's the thing...religion is a belief system....some are more flexible then others...but...thats wot they are sceince isn't oh..science can be wrong, science can be way out in la la land but..the basic tenets of science are this...QUESTION! science is always suppose to question and probe and reinvent itself does it always? course not....it is a human condition after all, and subject to the same dogmas, issues and foibles of human society its sorta scarey to me to see a more "underground" religion like paganism (which is a dang wide field) fall pray to the same "narrow mindedness" as more mainstream religions.... i think jo, nikki and peter could respond to this much better then me.... as for the teeth ok...gorillas and pandas have more "canine" and sharp teeth then we do...and they are 100% veg... we don't have meat eating teeth...we just don't.... and, look at supposed omnivores....look at things like bears, oppossums, raccoons...now look at their teeth.....look ANYTHING even remotely like ours? no...not even close... sure..we can eat meat.... apparantly, so can cows when you feed it to em.. doesn't really make for a healthy diet...fer either of em circle of life apparantly..there is no compassion or ethics in this so called circle and since we must always fall prey to this circle..lets not change anything...lets not feel for our fellow beings, lets not consider another beings life.... anyone up for rounding up some ppl of another culture, religion, creed, race or society and killing em off? might as well..circle of life and all humans need fat/made our brains big this argument is all the rage lately...every science show on tv dealing with human evolution deals with this.. "our ancestors ate meat, it made us smart" um..yeah...right 1. our remote ancestors ate fruit..leaves...and the occassional bug er lizard...maybe an egg...we originally were a creature that lived in the forest.... 2. ever try and chase down an antelope? catch and eat it with yer bare hands? 3. once humans did discover eating meat..it was originally from scavenging...not very romantic is it 4. look at the corprolite studies from early man sites....little meat consumption 5. neatherthals and erectus ate meat!.. yeah..and they died out 6. meat makes brains big tell that to an elephant er a gorilla at the same time..if that was the main progenitor of brain power, how come we aren't ruled by cats? 7. i personally like to think i'm not a neatherthal 8. modern hunter gatherer tribes... how much meat do they consume? not a whole lot... ever watch a study of some people hunting from hunter gatherer peoples? they spend like 2 days tracking an animal, they chase it for another 2-3 days.... then bring their quarry(maybe) back to the camp, and divide it up amongst everyone..... no such thing as refrigeration.... so..30 odd people get to have antelope bits maybe once a week...maybe.. they rarely study their normal diet....cuz, its just not romantic to watch em gathering roots and fruits and bug spit....... 9. it bloody doesn't matter.....even if we had the same teeth as big cats, we DON"T have to eat meat we can limit another creatures death.suffering sorry..i don't think i'm speaking very clearly er thinking clearly... can i borrow that flower? *goes to window to watch humminbird" "zurumato" Mar 10, 2006 10:04 AM veganchat , Vegan_Animal_Rights FW: [magic gardening] Diets hi all, I feel that I need support from you guys. I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, however, they are always talking about bee keeping, which I then said "i don't think that bees are thinking about humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies" all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. They are talking about the "wheel of life" and the "natural chain of life" and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. Thanks, anouk - Nanci Kuykendall magic_gardening 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM [magic gardening] Diets Those supporting a more balanced view are doing sobeautifully without my help, but I just wanted to saya few words on this topic. All the arguments hereregarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior arebased on science and studies. For every such argumentwe could all easily come up with equally valid andcompelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. It's a stalemate. However, I just wanted to point out that this is apagan list, and the person arguing their fanaticalvegetarian views seems to worship at the altar ofscience. According to what they have written here,they have disavowed a large portion of theirconnectedness to life because it causes them misplacedguilt. You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying outloud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out itwouldn't change your physiology. >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores,>like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are>very short not elongated. That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores.We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never beenhunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weaponsas lions do. We've used our brains as our primaryweapon and so hunted using tools like sticks androcks.Our large brains also require animal fats for propergrowth and indeed evolved because of this diet ofanimal fats. There is much other physiologicalevidence as well. Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treatanimals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel oflife which includes death. Out of control meatconsumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. Thereason for this out of control meat consumption isthat as a species we generally like meat, find that ittastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so weseek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. That's the nature of our species in general.If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, thengreat! But that doesn't make you morally superior. Ifeel that further distancing ourselves from the wheelof life by raising ourselves up high on a morally selfrighteous pedestal doesn't address the problems without of control meat consumption and factory farming,and indeed creates a divissivness between people whichis counterproductive to communication and to fosteringcultural change.Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet,despite what you may think or what your sources maysay. It's about your specific physiology, what your"people" have eaten for many generations, what you'redesigned to eat, and taking into account intolerancesand allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, orIcelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climatecultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropicalcultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising sincethey traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. Amodern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavilyprocessed products, which are created in ways that areneither sustainable nor environmentally sound, andoften lacks good nutritional variety because they relytoo heavily on certain staples such as soy. Pleasenotice that I said "usually" and "often." >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kickingand >screaming by predators here in the US. Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live inYellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elkor bison variety, occassionally of the moredomesticated variety as well, when they venture out ofthe confines of the park. They still live happily inAlaska and some other places in the world as well. Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of alarge predator which live in my neighborhood. We'vedone away with most of our big predators in amisguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe.>you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to>reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill>weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all thetime. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned(war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it'scounter to the society in which the killer lives andthey then are considered criminal. Often this line ismurky and the killing is sanctioned in their culturebut not in the culture of their victims (such as actsof war and terrorism.) Generally their targets areweaker humans than themselves.From a spiritual point of view however, indigenouspeoples tend to believe that animals do allowthemselves to be killed, not because they want to die,but because they know they will die at some point andwhen asked properly and shown the proper respect andlove they accept the role of their body's flesh asfood for the hunter, knowing that their spirit willreturn to the spiritworld from whence they came, andthat the hunter themselves will one day be food aswell, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest ofthe creatures of the soil if they are not killed be alarge animal as food outright. The cycle is honoredand revered and emotion, humility and gratitude isfelt for the life given.This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is outof fashion in our culture, mainly due toJudeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that weare above animals, and even above human non-beliverslike us, and the modern fear and loathing of death inall forms. It's also not "easy" or "fun" and in aculture as obsessed with entertainment and selfindulgence as ours, things that are not easy and funare not popular. We've done away with most largepredators so we don't often die that way anymore, andwith embalming and modern burial methods we don'toften become food for scavengers or the soil dwellerseither.>I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain>argument to justify the need to keep billions of>sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing>them before their natural lifespan would dictate,>boiling many alive, just to eat their torturedbodies.No one was justifying spiritually void modern factoryfarming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud thatyou cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking.>The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter.Again, that "fact" is highly debatable and easilyrefutable.>Destroying another being causes pain, Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or myfamily to be an act of destruction. We give back tothe land with the waste we process out of our bodies(since we use a composting toilet system) and theanimal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us,carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part ofall living things, brother and sister to all in theweb of life, including the life we see in water,stone, air and other "scientifically" inanimate"things." We use all these things to live and we giveback in many ways.> A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the onlyanimal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big"sport", >but a least they die instantly. Are you talking about human comsumption of meat orsport hunting? These are two radically differenttopics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill.They are built for it, and you would be assuming thatall predators are devoid of emotion if you assume thatthey derive no pleasure in making a kill, that theyfeel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successfulend, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meatto sustain themselves and their young. Further, manypredators also kill what they cannot eat, although notanywhere near to the extent of man. We are after allcreatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill forpleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are nothungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernablereason other than that they don't like them. Thereare many other examples. I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I dounderstand that the drive to do so comes from ourpredatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more becausethey have a great deal more testosterone than womendo, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sporthunting is an example of the excess of our modernsociety, as in previous eras it was the province onlyof kings who could waste such time on frivilouspursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eatwhat they kill and only keeping trophies.>I do believe that plants have feelings but not the>same as animals. Plants lack a central nervoussystem >and a brain, both of which are necessary toregister >pain. Ugh...more science worship. The more you know aboutscience the more you can begin to understand how verylittle we do know. Just because we have no way tomeasure or understand how plants preceive things,doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. Itjust means that we have not figured out how to see orprove it. Do you only belive in what you can measureand touch and see with your optic nerve? >I believe that humans are herbivores,Interesting. You throw your god Science out thewindow when he doesn't support your theories.>If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths>would water every time we see a decomposing animal >on the road. You base this assumption on what exactly? Manycarnivores won't touch meat they didn't killthemselves, much less decomposing meat.>We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and >birds alive with our bare teeth. LOL, are you serious? This is your "evidence?">We need to season our meat in order to eat it,Completely untrue. We've developed a taste andtolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable ofingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and manyfolks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steaktar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet?>to me less harm means reducing my negative impact>whenever possible. Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refrainingfrom judging and condeming your fellow humans from aplace of your percieved moral superiority, norbringing your strife and negative energy to a mailinglist about pagan gardening.Nanci K. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Way to go Fraggle, you are far better than me at responding to this sort of tosh, well done. Oh and thanks for the info on Dewi Sant ( still pushing for a day off!), mind you still looking for a decent vegan stout available locally!.God I miss those little original recipe bottles of Guiness! The Valley Vegan............. only read a part of the reply but..couple responses... first off...sorry to all the pagans on this list....i am in no way trying to offend you..but..worshipping at the altar of science? give me a break... see..here's the thing...religion is a belief system....some are more flexible then others...but...thats wot they are sceince isn't oh..science can be wrong, science can be way out in la la land but..the basic tenets of science are this...QUESTION! science is always suppose to question and probe and reinvent itself does it always? course not....it is a human condition after all, and subject to the same dogmas, issues and foibles of human society its sorta scarey to me to see a more "underground" religion like paganism (which is a dang wide field) fall pray to the same "narrow mindedness" as more mainstream religions.... i think jo, nikki and peter could respond to this much better then me.... as for the teeth ok...gorillas and pandas have more "canine" and sharp teeth then we do...and they are 100% veg... we don't have meat eating teeth...we just don't.... and, look at supposed omnivores....look at things like bears, oppossums, raccoons...now look at their teeth.....look ANYTHING even remotely like ours? no...not even close... sure..we can eat meat.... apparantly, so can cows when you feed it to em.. doesn't really make for a healthy diet...fer either of em circle of life apparantly..there is no compassion or ethics in this so called circle and since we must always fall prey to this circle..lets not change anything...lets not feel for our fellow beings, lets not consider another beings life.... anyone up for rounding up some ppl of another culture, religion, creed, race or society and killing em off? might as well..circle of life and all humans need fat/made our brains big this argument is all the rage lately...every science show on tv dealing with human evolution deals with this.. "our ancestors ate meat, it made us smart" um..yeah...right 1. our remote ancestors ate fruit..leaves...and the occassional bug er lizard...maybe an egg...we originally were a creature that lived in the forest.... 2. ever try and chase down an antelope? catch and eat it with yer bare hands? 3. once humans did discover eating meat..it was originally from scavenging...not very romantic is it 4. look at the corprolite studies from early man sites....little meat consumption 5. neatherthals and erectus ate meat!.. yeah..and they died out 6. meat makes brains big tell that to an elephant er a gorilla at the same time..if that was the main progenitor of brain power, how come we aren't ruled by cats? 7. i personally like to think i'm not a neatherthal 8. modern hunter gatherer tribes... how much meat do they consume? not a whole lot... ever watch a study of some people hunting from hunter gatherer peoples? they spend like 2 days tracking an animal, they chase it for another 2-3 days.... then bring their quarry(maybe) back to the camp, and divide it up amongst everyone..... no such thing as refrigeration.... so..30 odd people get to have antelope bits maybe once a week...maybe.. they rarely study their normal diet....cuz, its just not romantic to watch em gathering roots and fruits and bug spit....... 9. it bloody doesn't matter.....even if we had the same teeth as big cats, we DON"T have to eat meat we can limit another creatures death.suffering sorry..i don't think i'm speaking very clearly er thinking clearly... can i borrow that flower? *goes to window to watch humminbird" "zurumato" Mar 10, 2006 10:04 AM To: veganchat , Vegan_Animal_Rights FW: [magic gardening] Diets hi all, I feel that I need support from you guys. I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, however, they are always talking about bee keeping, which I then said "i don't think that bees are thinking about humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies" all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. They are talking about the "wheel of life" and the "natural chain of life" and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. Thanks, anouk - Nanci Kuykendall magic_gardening 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM [magic gardening] Diets Those supporting a more balanced view are doing sobeautifully without my help, but I just wanted to saya few words on this topic. All the arguments hereregarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior arebased on science and studies. For every such argumentwe could all easily come up with equally valid andcompelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. It's a stalemate. However, I just wanted to point out that this is apagan list, and the person arguing their fanaticalvegetarian views seems to worship at the altar ofscience. According to what they have written here,they have disavowed a large portion of theirconnectedness to life because it causes them misplacedguilt. You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying outloud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out itwouldn't change your physiology. >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores,>like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are>very short not elongated. That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores.We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never beenhunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weaponsas lions do. We've used our brains as our primaryweapon and so hunted using tools like sticks androcks.Our large brains also require animal fats for propergrowth and indeed evolved because of this diet ofanimal fats. There is much other physiologicalevidence as well. Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treatanimals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel oflife which includes death. Out of control meatconsumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. Thereason for this out of control meat consumption isthat as a species we generally like meat, find that ittastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so weseek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. That's the nature of our species in general.If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, thengreat! But that doesn't make you morally superior. Ifeel that further distancing ourselves from the wheelof life by raising ourselves up high on a morally selfrighteous pedestal doesn't address the problems without of control meat consumption and factory farming,and indeed creates a divissivness between people whichis counterproductive to communication and to fosteringcultural change.Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet,despite what you may think or what your sources maysay. It's about your specific physiology, what your"people" have eaten for many generations, what you'redesigned to eat, and taking into account intolerancesand allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, orIcelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climatecultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropicalcultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising sincethey traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. Amodern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavilyprocessed products, which are created in ways that areneither sustainable nor environmentally sound, andoften lacks good nutritional variety because they relytoo heavily on certain staples such as soy. Pleasenotice that I said "usually" and "often." >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kickingand >screaming by predators here in the US. Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live inYellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elkor bison variety, occassionally of the moredomesticated variety as well, when they venture out ofthe confines of the park. They still live happily inAlaska and some other places in the world as well. Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of alarge predator which live in my neighborhood. We'vedone away with most of our big predators in amisguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe.>you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to>reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill>weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all thetime. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned(war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it'scounter to the society in which the killer lives andthey then are considered criminal. Often this line ismurky and the killing is sanctioned in their culturebut not in the culture of their victims (such as actsof war and terrorism.) Generally their targets areweaker humans than themselves.From a spiritual point of view however, indigenouspeoples tend to believe that animals do allowthemselves to be killed, not because they want to die,but because they know they will die at some point andwhen asked properly and shown the proper respect andlove they accept the role of their body's flesh asfood for the hunter, knowing that their spirit willreturn to the spiritworld from whence they came, andthat the hunter themselves will one day be food aswell, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest ofthe creatures of the soil if they are not killed be alarge animal as food outright. The cycle is honoredand revered and emotion, humility and gratitude isfelt for the life given.This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is outof fashion in our culture, mainly due toJudeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that weare above animals, and even above human non-beliverslike us, and the modern fear and loathing of death inall forms. It's also not "easy" or "fun" and in aculture as obsessed with entertainment and selfindulgence as ours, things that are not easy and funare not popular. We've done away with most largepredators so we don't often die that way anymore, andwith embalming and modern burial methods we don'toften become food for scavengers or the soil dwellerseither.>I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain>argument to justify the need to keep billions of>sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing>them before their natural lifespan would dictate,>boiling many alive, just to eat their torturedbodies.No one was justifying spiritually void modern factoryfarming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud thatyou cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking.>The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter.Again, that "fact" is highly debatable and easilyrefutable.>Destroying another being causes pain, Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or myfamily to be an act of destruction. We give back tothe land with the waste we process out of our bodies(since we use a composting toilet system) and theanimal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us,carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part ofall living things, brother and sister to all in theweb of life, including the life we see in water,stone, air and other "scientifically" inanimate"things." We use all these things to live and we giveback in many ways.> A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the onlyanimal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big"sport", >but a least they die instantly. Are you talking about human comsumption of meat orsport hunting? These are two radically differenttopics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill.They are built for it, and you would be assuming thatall predators are devoid of emotion if you assume thatthey derive no pleasure in making a kill, that theyfeel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successfulend, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meatto sustain themselves and their young. Further, manypredators also kill what they cannot eat, although notanywhere near to the extent of man. We are after allcreatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill forpleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are nothungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernablereason other than that they don't like them. Thereare many other examples. I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I dounderstand that the drive to do so comes from ourpredatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more becausethey have a great deal more testosterone than womendo, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sporthunting is an example of the excess of our modernsociety, as in previous eras it was the province onlyof kings who could waste such time on frivilouspursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eatwhat they kill and only keeping trophies.>I do believe that plants have feelings but not the>same as animals. Plants lack a central nervoussystem >and a brain, both of which are necessary toregister >pain. Ugh...more science worship. The more you know aboutscience the more you can begin to understand how verylittle we do know. Just because we have no way tomeasure or understand how plants preceive things,doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. Itjust means that we have not figured out how to see orprove it. Do you only belive in what you can measureand touch and see with your optic nerve? >I believe that humans are herbivores,Interesting. You throw your god Science out thewindow when he doesn't support your theories.>If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths>would water every time we see a decomposing animal >on the road. You base this assumption on what exactly? Manycarnivores won't touch meat they didn't killthemselves, much less decomposing meat.>We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and >birds alive with our bare teeth. LOL, are you serious? This is your "evidence?">We need to season our meat in order to eat it,Completely untrue. We've developed a taste andtolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable ofingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and manyfolks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steaktar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet?>to me less harm means reducing my negative impact>whenever possible. Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refrainingfrom judging and condeming your fellow humans from aplace of your percieved moral superiority, norbringing your strife and negative energy to a mailinglist about pagan gardening.Nanci K. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 have you thought about writing each of yer local welsh breweries and asking? peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 12:26 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Way to go Fraggle, you are far better than me at responding to this sort of tosh, well done. Oh and thanks for the info on Dewi Sant ( still pushing for a day off!), mind you still looking for a decent vegan stout available locally!.God I miss those little original recipe bottles of Guiness! The Valley Vegan............. "NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Tried one ( Tomos Watkin) and gave up after an apologetic letter from a secretary, who advised me that the head brewer hadnt replied. Can`t` be arsed to be honest - I know Brains aint vegan. The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: have you thought about writing each of yer local welsh breweries and asking? peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 12:26 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Way to go Fraggle, you are far better than me at responding to this sort of tosh, well done. Oh and thanks for the info on Dewi Sant ( still pushing for a day off!), mind you still looking for a decent vegan stout available locally!.God I miss those little original recipe bottles of Guiness! The Valley Vegan............. "NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President."Peter H Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Hey Anouk, not very broad minded for Pagans are they? As for arguing on dentition? well come on have they ever looked into the evolution of humans? doesnt sound like.Do they think we were always hunters? not foragers? Dont look very far back in our evolution do they? They sound like they feel threatened by your veganism? which I find perplexing. I am not a practicing Pagan, so maybe Peter could answer this better, but why would any Pagan group take that view? why call you morally self righteous? Sorry, but this seems quite hostile to me, maybe you should confront them by asking them why they are making this so personal, and why they think your belief system contradicts Paganism ( maybe it does forall I know?- Peter HELP?!) Sorry to hear about this Anouk, it is very sad. The Valley Vegan.............."zurumato" <zurumato wrote: hi all, I feel that I need support from you guys. I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, however, they are always talking about bee keeping, which I then said "i don't think that bees are thinking about humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies" all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. They are talking about the "wheel of life" and the "natural chain of life" and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. Thanks, anouk - Nanci Kuykendall magic_gardening 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM [magic gardening] Diets Those supporting a more balanced view are doing sobeautifully without my help, but I just wanted to saya few words on this topic. All the arguments hereregarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior arebased on science and studies. For every such argumentwe could all easily come up with equally valid andcompelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. It's a stalemate. However, I just wanted to point out that this is apagan list, and the person arguing their fanaticalvegetarian views seems to worship at the altar ofscience. According to what they have written here,they have disavowed a large portion of theirconnectedness to life because it causes them misplacedguilt. You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying outloud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out itwouldn't change your physiology. >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores,>like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are>very short not elongated. That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores.We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never beenhunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weaponsas lions do. We've used our brains as our primaryweapon and so hunted using tools like sticks androcks.Our large brains also require animal fats for propergrowth and indeed evolved because of this diet ofanimal fats. There is much other physiologicalevidence as well. Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treatanimals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel oflife which includes death. Out of control meatconsumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. Thereason for this out of control meat consumption isthat as a species we generally like meat, find that ittastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so weseek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. That's the nature of our species in general.If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, thengreat! But that doesn't make you morally superior. Ifeel that further distancing ourselves from the wheelof life by raising ourselves up high on a morally selfrighteous pedestal doesn't address the problems without of control meat consumption and factory farming,and indeed creates a divissivness between people whichis counterproductive to communication and to fosteringcultural change.Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet,despite what you may think or what your sources maysay. It's about your specific physiology, what your"people" have eaten for many generations, what you'redesigned to eat, and taking into account intolerancesand allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, orIcelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climatecultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropicalcultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising sincethey traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. Amodern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavilyprocessed products, which are created in ways that areneither sustainable nor environmentally sound, andoften lacks good nutritional variety because they relytoo heavily on certain staples such as soy. Pleasenotice that I said "usually" and "often." >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kickingand >screaming by predators here in the US. Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live inYellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elkor bison variety, occassionally of the moredomesticated variety as well, when they venture out ofthe confines of the park. They still live happily inAlaska and some other places in the world as well. Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of alarge predator which live in my neighborhood. We'vedone away with most of our big predators in amisguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe.>you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to>reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill>weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all thetime. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned(war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it'scounter to the society in which the killer lives andthey then are considered criminal. Often this line ismurky and the killing is sanctioned in their culturebut not in the culture of their victims (such as actsof war and terrorism.) Generally their targets areweaker humans than themselves.From a spiritual point of view however, indigenouspeoples tend to believe that animals do allowthemselves to be killed, not because they want to die,but because they know they will die at some point andwhen asked properly and shown the proper respect andlove they accept the role of their body's flesh asfood for the hunter, knowing that their spirit willreturn to the spiritworld from whence they came, andthat the hunter themselves will one day be food aswell, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest ofthe creatures of the soil if they are not killed be alarge animal as food outright. The cycle is honoredand revered and emotion, humility and gratitude isfelt for the life given.This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is outof fashion in our culture, mainly due toJudeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that weare above animals, and even above human non-beliverslike us, and the modern fear and loathing of death inall forms. It's also not "easy" or "fun" and in aculture as obsessed with entertainment and selfindulgence as ours, things that are not easy and funare not popular. We've done away with most largepredators so we don't often die that way anymore, andwith embalming and modern burial methods we don'toften become food for scavengers or the soil dwellerseither.>I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain>argument to justify the need to keep billions of>sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing>them before their natural lifespan would dictate,>boiling many alive, just to eat their torturedbodies.No one was justifying spiritually void modern factoryfarming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud thatyou cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking.>The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter.Again, that "fact" is highly debatable and easilyrefutable.>Destroying another being causes pain, Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or myfamily to be an act of destruction. We give back tothe land with the waste we process out of our bodies(since we use a composting toilet system) and theanimal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us,carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part ofall living things, brother and sister to all in theweb of life, including the life we see in water,stone, air and other "scientifically" inanimate"things." We use all these things to live and we giveback in many ways.> A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the onlyanimal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big"sport", >but a least they die instantly. Are you talking about human comsumption of meat orsport hunting? These are two radically differenttopics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill.They are built for it, and you would be assuming thatall predators are devoid of emotion if you assume thatthey derive no pleasure in making a kill, that theyfeel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successfulend, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meatto sustain themselves and their young. Further, manypredators also kill what they cannot eat, although notanywhere near to the extent of man. We are after allcreatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill forpleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are nothungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernablereason other than that they don't like them. Thereare many other examples. I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I dounderstand that the drive to do so comes from ourpredatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more becausethey have a great deal more testosterone than womendo, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sporthunting is an example of the excess of our modernsociety, as in previous eras it was the province onlyof kings who could waste such time on frivilouspursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eatwhat they kill and only keeping trophies.>I do believe that plants have feelings but not the>same as animals. Plants lack a central nervoussystem >and a brain, both of which are necessary toregister >pain. Ugh...more science worship. The more you know aboutscience the more you can begin to understand how verylittle we do know. Just because we have no way tomeasure or understand how plants preceive things,doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. Itjust means that we have not figured out how to see orprove it. Do you only belive in what you can measureand touch and see with your optic nerve? >I believe that humans are herbivores,Interesting. You throw your god Science out thewindow when he doesn't support your theories.>If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths>would water every time we see a decomposing animal >on the road. You base this assumption on what exactly? Manycarnivores won't touch meat they didn't killthemselves, much less decomposing meat.>We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and >birds alive with our bare teeth. LOL, are you serious? This is your "evidence?">We need to season our meat in order to eat it,Completely untrue. We've developed a taste andtolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable ofingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and manyfolks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steaktar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet?>to me less harm means reducing my negative impact>whenever possible. Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refrainingfrom judging and condeming your fellow humans from aplace of your percieved moral superiority, norbringing your strife and negative energy to a mailinglist about pagan gardening.Nanci K.Peter H To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Security Centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 Get over here and sort them out magic beer creature! The Valley Vegan........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: weird bring up beer with any brewer around here, and they fall all over themselves to talk about it when we had our lil trip over the weekend, the brewers at both Boulder Creek and santa maria brewing about urinated all over themselves in their glee to talk about beer peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 12:52 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Tried one ( Tomos Watkin) and gave up after an apologetic letter from a secretary, who advised me that the head brewer hadnt replied. Can`t` be arsed to be honest - I know Brains aint vegan. The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: have you thought about writing each of yer local welsh breweries and asking? peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 12:26 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Way to go Fraggle, you are far better than me at responding to this sort of tosh, well done. Oh and thanks for the info on Dewi Sant ( still pushing for a day off!), mind you still looking for a decent vegan stout available locally!.God I miss those little original recipe bottles of Guiness! The Valley Vegan............. "NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President." Peter H Photos – NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2006 Report Share Posted March 10, 2006 maybe someday i'll make it over to wales.... well...coming over to Bath next year..but dunno if gonna have time to make it to yer neck of the woods peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 1:07 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Get over here and sort them out magic beer creature! The Valley Vegan........fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: weird bring up beer with any brewer around here, and they fall all over themselves to talk about it when we had our lil trip over the weekend, the brewers at both Boulder Creek and santa maria brewing about urinated all over themselves in their glee to talk about beer peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 12:52 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Tried one ( Tomos Watkin) and gave up after an apologetic letter from a secretary, who advised me that the head brewer hadnt replied. Can`t` be arsed to be honest - I know Brains aint vegan. The Valley Vegan..............fraggle <EBbrewpunx wrote: have you thought about writing each of yer local welsh breweries and asking? peter hurd Mar 10, 2006 12:26 PM Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets Way to go Fraggle, you are far better than me at responding to this sort of tosh, well done. Oh and thanks for the info on Dewi Sant ( still pushing for a day off!), mind you still looking for a decent vegan stout available locally!.God I miss those little original recipe bottles of Guiness! The Valley Vegan............. "NOTICE: Due to Presidential Executive Orders, the National Security Agency may have read this email without warning, warrant, or notice. They may do this without any judicial or legislative oversight. You have no recourse nor protection save to call for the impeachment of the current President." Peter H Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo. To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Thanks fraggle, you rock! I hope you don't mind but I've replied to that lady and used some of your words and put it into my own words. as well as the words of nikki and peter and peter and serene. I wrote a nice and polite letter, using the info that you guys gave, and I will just let it rest. thanks anouk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 I was more polite than her thanks! did peter visit chicago? That's great! , " earthstrm " <earthstorm wrote: > > Hi Anouk~ > > Sounds like an angry person to me who is upset with something other > than you. Possibly guilt. > > I can understand " keeping " bees so long as those bees are untouched > and the honey left alone. Then they are simply giving them a home and > in turn the bees help the garden. > > I wouldn't reply to this woman, that is what she wants. If you do so, > you shall only give her the power over the situation and fuel her > more. Or reply with a small statement of " Thank you for your answer, I > appreciate your honesty. I think we shall agree to have different > beliefs and leave it at that. After all, I am not judging you simply > asking a question as I have no right to judge another. Thank you for > your response, you have helped me to learn more. " > > And in being so nice, you may anger her even more as she obviously is > looking for a fight. But you will be the bigger person. > > I wouldn't waste anymore energy on her then need be. She is neither > close to you nor someone you need to have understand and comfort you. > So let it go. > > Tho I did enjoy the giggle her note to you gave me. But in the end > just shook my head. > > Peter and I were talking at his visit about something similar to this. > I said that I could not understand how any Pagan could not be a Vegan > or at the least a vegetarian, or even sympathetic to it. It did not > seem right to me. > > But then again, who the heck am I to judge another. > > I once got into this same debate on a Wiccan group. I did not leave, > but I let it go and did not bring it up again. Tho I was threatened > with a spice cake. LOL > > As to whether you should leave or not is up to you. But if you enjoy > it there and get good info from it, don't let her chase you away. > > Just reply nicely as if you could care less. And then actually care > less. > > Just my thoughts! > > Nikki > > > , " zurumato@ " <zurumato@> wrote: > > > > hi all, > > I feel that I need support from you guys. > > > > I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to > learn how to garden, with pagan like people, > > however, they are always talking about bee keeping, > > which I then said " i don't think that bees are thinking about > > humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about > how to feed their babies " > > > <<SNIP>> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi Peter, that was very well put thanks , " Peter " <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Anouk > > Well, if they are Pagan, then the majority of them should to an ethic of " HARM NONE " ... I'd ask them how they justify following such an ethic when their dietary choices do a lot of harm to individual animals, and to the planet in general. All Pagans accept that we should treat the Earth with respect, and it seems deeply hypocritical to me to claim to treat the Earth with respect, and then make dietary choices which are destroying rain forests, creating greenhouse gasses, and basically destroying Mother Gaia. > > As to whether you want to leave the group - I guess the question is whether you get more enjoyment out of it than you get trouble. > > BB > Peter > - > zurumato > veganchat ; Vegan_Animal_Rights > Friday, March 10, 2006 6:04 PM > FW: [magic gardening] Diets > > > hi all, > I feel that I need support from you guys. > > I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, > however, they are always talking about bee keeping, > which I then said " i don't think that bees are thinking about > humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies " > > all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. > They are talking about the " wheel of life " and the " natural chain of life " and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. > > This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. > This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. > does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? > or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. > > Thanks, > anouk > > - > Nanci Kuykendall > magic_gardening > 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM > [magic gardening] Diets > > > Those supporting a more balanced view are doing so > beautifully without my help, but I just wanted to say > a few words on this topic. All the arguments here > regarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior are > based on science and studies. For every such argument > we could all easily come up with equally valid and > compelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. > It's a stalemate. > > However, I just wanted to point out that this is a > pagan list, and the person arguing their fanatical > vegetarian views seems to worship at the altar of > science. According to what they have written here, > they have disavowed a large portion of their > connectedness to life because it causes them misplaced > guilt. > > You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying out > loud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. > If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out it > wouldn't change your physiology. > > >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores, > >like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are > >very short not elongated. > > That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores. > We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never been > hunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weapons > as lions do. We've used our brains as our primary > weapon and so hunted using tools like sticks and > rocks. > > Our large brains also require animal fats for proper > growth and indeed evolved because of this diet of > animal fats. There is much other physiological > evidence as well. > > Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treat > animals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel of > life which includes death. Out of control meat > consumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. The > reason for this out of control meat consumption is > that as a species we generally like meat, find that it > tastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so we > seek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. > That's the nature of our species in general. > > If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, then > great! But that doesn't make you morally superior. I > feel that further distancing ourselves from the wheel > of life by raising ourselves up high on a morally self > righteous pedestal doesn't address the problems with > out of control meat consumption and factory farming, > and indeed creates a divissivness between people which > is counterproductive to communication and to fostering > cultural change. > > Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet, > despite what you may think or what your sources may > say. It's about your specific physiology, what your > " people " have eaten for many generations, what you're > designed to eat, and taking into account intolerances > and allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, or > Icelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climate > cultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropical > cultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising since > they traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. A > modern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavily > processed products, which are created in ways that are > neither sustainable nor environmentally sound, and > often lacks good nutritional variety because they rely > too heavily on certain staples such as soy. Please > notice that I said " usually " and " often. " > > >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kicking > and >screaming by predators here in the US. > > Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live in > Yellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elk > or bison variety, occassionally of the more > domesticated variety as well, when they venture out of > the confines of the park. They still live happily in > Alaska and some other places in the world as well. > Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of a > large predator which live in my neighborhood. We've > done away with most of our big predators in a > misguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe. > > >you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to > >reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill > >weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? > > Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all the > time. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned > (war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it's > counter to the society in which the killer lives and > they then are considered criminal. Often this line is > murky and the killing is sanctioned in their culture > but not in the culture of their victims (such as acts > of war and terrorism.) Generally their targets are > weaker humans than themselves. > > From a spiritual point of view however, indigenous > peoples tend to believe that animals do allow > themselves to be killed, not because they want to die, > but because they know they will die at some point and > when asked properly and shown the proper respect and > love they accept the role of their body's flesh as > food for the hunter, knowing that their spirit will > return to the spiritworld from whence they came, and > that the hunter themselves will one day be food as > well, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest of > the creatures of the soil if they are not killed be a > large animal as food outright. The cycle is honored > and revered and emotion, humility and gratitude is > felt for the life given. > > This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is out > of fashion in our culture, mainly due to > Judeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that we > are above animals, and even above human non-belivers > like us, and the modern fear and loathing of death in > all forms. It's also not " easy " or " fun " and in a > culture as obsessed with entertainment and self > indulgence as ours, things that are not easy and fun > are not popular. We've done away with most large > predators so we don't often die that way anymore, and > with embalming and modern burial methods we don't > often become food for scavengers or the soil dwellers > either. > > >I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain > >argument to justify the need to keep billions of > >sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing > >them before their natural lifespan would dictate, > >boiling many alive, just to eat their tortured > bodies. > > No one was justifying spiritually void modern factory > farming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud that > you cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking. > > >The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter. > > Again, that " fact " is highly debatable and easily > refutable. > > >Destroying another being causes pain, > > Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or my > family to be an act of destruction. We give back to > the land with the waste we process out of our bodies > (since we use a composting toilet system) and the > animal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us, > carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part of > all living things, brother and sister to all in the > web of life, including the life we see in water, > stone, air and other " scientifically " inanimate > " things. " We use all these things to live and we give > back in many ways. > > > A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the only > animal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big > " sport " , >but a least they die instantly. > > Are you talking about human comsumption of meat or > sport hunting? These are two radically different > topics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill. > They are built for it, and you would be assuming that > all predators are devoid of emotion if you assume that > they derive no pleasure in making a kill, that they > feel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successful > end, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meat > to sustain themselves and their young. Further, many > predators also kill what they cannot eat, although not > anywhere near to the extent of man. We are after all > creatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill for > pleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are not > hungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernable > reason other than that they don't like them. There > are many other examples. > > I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I do > understand that the drive to do so comes from our > predatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more because > they have a great deal more testosterone than women > do, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sport > hunting is an example of the excess of our modern > society, as in previous eras it was the province only > of kings who could waste such time on frivilous > pursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eat > what they kill and only keeping trophies. > > >I do believe that plants have feelings but not the > >same as animals. Plants lack a central nervous > system >and a brain, both of which are necessary to > register >pain. > > Ugh...more science worship. The more you know about > science the more you can begin to understand how very > little we do know. Just because we have no way to > measure or understand how plants preceive things, > doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. It > just means that we have not figured out how to see or > prove it. Do you only belive in what you can measure > and touch and see with your optic nerve? > > >I believe that humans are herbivores, > > Interesting. You throw your god Science out the > window when he doesn't support your theories. > > >If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths > >would water every time we see a decomposing animal > >on the road. > > You base this assumption on what exactly? Many > carnivores won't touch meat they didn't kill > themselves, much less decomposing meat. > > >We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and > >birds alive with our bare teeth. > > LOL, are you serious? This is your " evidence? " > > >We need to season our meat in order to eat it, > > Completely untrue. We've developed a taste and > tolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable of > ingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and many > folks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steak > tar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet? > > >to me less harm means reducing my negative impact > >whenever possible. > > Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refraining > from judging and condeming your fellow humans from a > place of your percieved moral superiority, nor > bringing your strife and negative energy to a mailing > list about pagan gardening. > > Nanci K. > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi Peter, I should know better than to go around making vegan statements but i honestly thought that they would be more broad minded. I think that you are right. -- In , peter hurd <swpgh01 wrote: > > Hey Anouk, not very broad minded for Pagans are they? > As for arguing on dentition? well come on have they ever looked into the evolution of humans? doesnt sound like.Do they think we were always hunters? not foragers? Dont look very far back in our evolution do they? > They sound like they feel threatened by your veganism? which I find perplexing. I am not a practicing Pagan, so maybe Peter could answer this better, but why would any Pagan group take that view? why call you morally self righteous? > Sorry, but this seems quite hostile to me, maybe you should confront them by asking them why they are making this so personal, and why they think your belief system contradicts Paganism ( maybe it does forall I know?- Peter HELP?!) > > Sorry to hear about this Anouk, it is very sad. > > > The Valley Vegan.............. > > " zurumato " <zurumato wrote: > hi all, > I feel that I need support from you guys. > > I joined a gardening group which is Pagan, because I wanted to learn how to garden, with pagan like people, > however, they are always talking about bee keeping, > which I then said " i don't think that bees are thinking about > humans when they make bees, I think that they are thinking about how to feed their babies " > > all hell broke loose, and my veganism was exposed, and this started a horrible thread of anti-veganism against me. I found out I am the only vegan in this group. > They are talking about the " wheel of life " and the " natural chain of life " and how I feel superior by dropping out of the wheel of life. > > This email below I got today, I need advice, should I just drop out of this group, or should I try to answer this lady. > This email is affecting my day and I just want to turn the computer off and stare at a flower. > does anyone think of anything clever to say back to this lady? > or should I just ignore her. the paragraphs with > > are my words. I have not been impolite with anyone in this group. > > Thanks, > anouk > > - > > Nanci Kuykendall > magic_gardening > 3/9/2006 10:54:02 PM > [magic gardening] Diets > > > Those supporting a more balanced view are doing so > beautifully without my help, but I just wanted to say > a few words on this topic. All the arguments here > regarding vegan/vegetarian diets being superior are > based on science and studies. For every such argument > we could all easily come up with equally valid and > compelling scientific counter evidence and arguments. > It's a stalemate. > > However, I just wanted to point out that this is a > pagan list, and the person arguing their fanatical > vegetarian views seems to worship at the altar of > science. According to what they have written here, > they have disavowed a large portion of their > connectedness to life because it causes them misplaced > guilt. > > You want science?? Look at your teeth for crying out > loud. You all have meat and vegetable eating teeth. > If you had all your meat eating teeth pulled out it > wouldn't change your physiology. > > >and we do not have the teeth of tipical carnivores, > >like those canines of a dog or a Lions, our teeth are > >very short not elongated. > > That's because we're not carnivores. We're omnivores. > We have a mix of teeth types. Also, we've never been > hunters who used our jaws and claws as primary weapons > as lions do. We've used our brains as our primary > weapon and so hunted using tools like sticks and > rocks. > > Our large brains also require animal fats for proper > growth and indeed evolved because of this diet of > animal fats. There is much other physiological > evidence as well. > > Yes, modern westerners eat far too much meat, treat > animals poorly, and are disconnected from the wheel of > life which includes death. Out of control meat > consumption has hurt our ecosystem worldwide. The > reason for this out of control meat consumption is > that as a species we generally like meat, find that it > tastes good, and crave it. It is pleasurable, so we > seek to have as much of it as possible, to excess. > That's the nature of our species in general. > > If you can live healthfully on a vegetarian diet, then > great! But that doesn't make you morally superior. I > feel that further distancing ourselves from the wheel > of life by raising ourselves up high on a morally self > righteous pedestal doesn't address the problems with > out of control meat consumption and factory farming, > and indeed creates a divissivness between people which > is counterproductive to communication and to fostering > cultural change. > > Some people simply cannot live on a vegan diet, > despite what you may think or what your sources may > say. It's about your specific physiology, what your > " people " have eaten for many generations, what you're > designed to eat, and taking into account intolerances > and allergies. Look at eskimos for instance, or > Icelandic peoples, or many far north or cold climate > cultures or desert peoples. Equatorial and tropical > cultures tend to eat less meat, not surprising since > they traditionally live in a year round fruit bowl. A > modern vegan diet also usually relies on many heavily > processed products, which are created in ways that are > neither sustainable nor environmentally sound, and > often lacks good nutritional variety because they rely > too heavily on certain staples such as soy. Please > notice that I said " usually " and " often. " > > >I do not know what animal would kill a cow kicking > and >screaming by predators here in the US. > > Wolves are one answer for you. The ones that live in > Yellowstone regularly eat cows and bulls, of the elk > or bison variety, occassionally of the more > domesticated variety as well, when they venture out of > the confines of the park. They still live happily in > Alaska and some other places in the world as well. > Cougars/Mountain Lions are another U.S. example of a > large predator which live in my neighborhood. We've > done away with most of our big predators in a > misguided effort to keep our cows and ourselves safe. > > >you seem to be living freely and I bet you want to > >reach old age. How come we aren't allow to kill > >weaker humans, only non-human animals are below us? > > Canibalism aside, people do kill each other, all the > time. Sometimes this is legally or morally sanctioned > (war, death penalties, etc.) and other times it's > counter to the society in which the killer lives and > they then are considered criminal. Often this line is > murky and the killing is sanctioned in their culture > but not in the culture of their victims (such as acts > of war and terrorism.) Generally their targets are > weaker humans than themselves. > > From a spiritual point of view however, indigenous > peoples tend to believe that animals do allow > themselves to be killed, not because they want to die, > but because they know they will die at some point and > when asked properly and shown the proper respect and > love they accept the role of their body's flesh as > food for the hunter, knowing that their spirit will > return to the spiritworld from whence they came, and > that the hunter themselves will one day be food as > well, at least for scavengers and for the lowliest of > the creatures of the soil if they are not killed be a > large animal as food outright. The cycle is honored > and revered and emotion, humility and gratitude is > felt for the life given. > > This spiritual connection to the cycle of life is out > of fashion in our culture, mainly due to > Judeo-Christian predominance, which teaches that we > are above animals, and even above human non-belivers > like us, and the modern fear and loathing of death in > all forms. It's also not " easy " or " fun " and in a > culture as obsessed with entertainment and self > indulgence as ours, things that are not easy and fun > are not popular. We've done away with most large > predators so we don't often die that way anymore, and > with embalming and modern burial methods we don't > often become food for scavengers or the soil dwellers > either. > > >I do not understand this Humans on top of the Chain > >argument to justify the need to keep billions of > >sentient beings in packed cruel conditions, killing > >them before their natural lifespan would dictate, > >boiling many alive, just to eat their tortured > bodies. > > No one was justifying spiritually void modern factory > farming or animal abuse. Your dogma is so loud that > you cannot seem to hear anyone but yourself speaking. > > >The fact still stands it is a choice in the matter. > > Again, that " fact " is highly debatable and easily > refutable. > > >Destroying another being causes pain, > > Destroying? I don't consider nourishing myself or my > family to be an act of destruction. We give back to > the land with the waste we process out of our bodies > (since we use a composting toilet system) and the > animal flesh we may consume becomes a part of us, > carried with us forever. We are inexorably a part of > all living things, brother and sister to all in the > web of life, including the life we see in water, > stone, air and other " scientifically " inanimate > " things. " We use all these things to live and we give > back in many ways. > > > A wolf hunts for food, but a human is the only > animal >that kills for pleasure, as hunting is a big > " sport " , >but a least they die instantly. > > Are you talking about human comsumption of meat or > sport hunting? These are two radically different > topics. It seems to me predators do enjoy their kill. > They are built for it, and you would be assuming that > all predators are devoid of emotion if you assume that > they derive no pleasure in making a kill, that they > feel no fierce joy in the hunt and it's successful > end, that they feel no satisfactionn in providing meat > to sustain themselves and their young. Further, many > predators also kill what they cannot eat, although not > anywhere near to the extent of man. We are after all > creatures of excess. Cats of any size often kill for > pleasure and discard the meat entirely if they are not > hungry. Lions kill hyenas often for no discernable > reason other than that they don't like them. There > are many other examples. > > I think sport hunting is stupid and wasteful, but I do > understand that the drive to do so comes from our > predatory instinct to hunt. Men feel it more because > they have a great deal more testosterone than women > do, so men hunt a great deal more. Modern sport > hunting is an example of the excess of our modern > society, as in previous eras it was the province only > of kings who could waste such time on frivilous > pursuits and show their wealth by not needing to eat > what they kill and only keeping trophies. > > >I do believe that plants have feelings but not the > >same as animals. Plants lack a central nervous > system >and a brain, both of which are necessary to > register >pain. > > Ugh...more science worship. The more you know about > science the more you can begin to understand how very > little we do know. Just because we have no way to > measure or understand how plants preceive things, > doesn't mean that they don't feel pain or emotion. It > just means that we have not figured out how to see or > prove it. Do you only belive in what you can measure > and touch and see with your optic nerve? > > >I believe that humans are herbivores, > > Interesting. You throw your god Science out the > window when he doesn't support your theories. > > >If humans were omnivores as you say, then our mouths > >would water every time we see a decomposing animal > >on the road. > > You base this assumption on what exactly? Many > carnivores won't touch meat they didn't kill > themselves, much less decomposing meat. > > >We do not feel the urge to rip small rodents and > >birds alive with our bare teeth. > > LOL, are you serious? This is your " evidence? " > > >We need to season our meat in order to eat it, > > Completely untrue. We've developed a taste and > tolerance for seasoned meat. We're quite capable of > ingesting and digesting it raw quite nicely and many > folks do. Ever heard of sushi? How about steak > tar-tar? How about Paleo-Diet? > > >to me less harm means reducing my negative impact > >whenever possible. > > Which aparently doesn't extend itself to refraining > from judging and condeming your fellow humans from a > place of your percieved moral superiority, nor > bringing your strife and negative energy to a mailing > list about pagan gardening. > > Nanci K. > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi Anouk Good luck and I hope that everything works out! Nikki , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato wrote: > > Thanks fraggle, > > you rock! > > I hope you don't mind but I've replied to that lady and used some > of your words and put it into my own words. > as well as the words of nikki and peter and peter and serene. > > I wrote a nice and polite letter, using the info that you guys > gave, and I will just let it rest. > > thanks > anouk > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi Anouk, I think that you were way more polite than her. You seemed to be responding to the issue at hand, she seemed to be responding to you. Yes, Peter did visit and it was great to meet him! He visited CA too but Fraggle blew him off... (I am so just kidding Frag!) Nikki , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato wrote: > > I was more polite than her > thanks! > > did peter visit chicago? > That's great! > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 Hi Anouk I completely understand what you are saying and why you may find it difficult in some situations to announce your veganism. But I feel that you must also be true to yourself. You did nothing wrong! If anything, you asked a question to which a Pagan should have given you a fair answer to. It is fine if they disagree and tell you so and why so. But the response that you receive was not very Pagan to me. Perhaps this person is only taking part of the Pagan religion and applying it to her lifestyle. And that is fine to. I am glad for the goodness she does. But never feel you have to hide yourself. Yes, you will be attacked at times, and it may be easier to say nothing at all. I too tend to stray away from conversations at times because I do not want to deal with it. But please do not feel bad for asking the question that you did. You should have received open and welcoming responses. To me, the person who attacked you did so out of guilt she has inside. If she is truly Pagan, then she knows. ((hugz)) Nikki , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato wrote: > > Hi Peter, > > I should know better than to go around making vegan statements > but i honestly thought that they would be more broad minded. > > I think that you are right. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 no problem..that why we put it out there >Anouk Sickler <zurumato >Mar 10, 2006 11:50 PM > > Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets > >Thanks fraggle, > >you rock! > >I hope you don't mind but I've replied to that lady and used some >of your words and put it into my own words. >as well as the words of nikki and peter and peter and serene. > >I wrote a nice and polite letter, using the info that you guys >gave, and I will just let it rest. > >thanks >anouk > > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2006 Report Share Posted March 11, 2006 hey, not my fault i gotta work allll day!! i gave me detailed instructions of where i'd be each nite as well!!! not my fault they hate me boohoohoohooooo >earthstrm <earthstorm >Mar 11, 2006 5:40 AM > > Re: FW: [magic gardening] Diets > >Hi Anouk, > >I think that you were way more polite than her. You seemed to be >responding to the issue at hand, she seemed to be responding to you. > >Yes, Peter did visit and it was great to meet him! > >He visited CA too but Fraggle blew him off... > >(I am so just kidding Frag!) > >Nikki > > > , " Anouk Sickler " <zurumato >wrote: >> >> I was more polite than her >> thanks! >> >> did peter visit chicago? >> That's great! >> > > > > > > >To send an email to - > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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