Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Why would anyone want to go over there? Why does anyone have to do anything? We (US and UK) were not invaded, not threatened. We invaded their country, killed their people, bombed their infrastructure to smithereens, stuck our noses in where we should not have. If we had not, we may be safer today. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 hmmm..i guess there conscience went missing during the amritsar massacre and the salt march massacres... i do have a question tho... so, you say you have people with zero consciousness(i'm gonna just assume you weren't lumping an entire religion into one group...) so..what are you answers? lets assume someone is going t oblow something up? including themselves... what are your answers? how can the military, any military, deal with it? if you are saying they are willing to blow themselves up fer their cause, how can the military do anything? ??? wouldn't it be better to find out why someone would do something akin to this? look at root causes? if someone is willing to blow themselves up fer something, doesn't that mean they have REALLY strong emotional ties to something? where do these feelings come from? and...i assume you meant the taliban and the buddhist statues... its called fundamentalism... maybe we should bring the military into large swaths of the US, since x-tian fundamentalists react the same way amongst many other targets.... ? lv2breathe Jun 6, 2006 9:32 AM Cc: Lv2breathe Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 i guess i should ask..."where" exactly are we suppose to go?? and, can i bring rebecca?? jo Jun 6, 2006 2:59 PM Re: Re: Ghandi Why would anyone want to go over there? Why does anyone have to do anything? We (US and UK) were not invaded, not threatened. We invaded their country, killed their people, bombed their infrastructure to smithereens, stuck our noses in where we should not have. If we had not, we may be safer today. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Soliel Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with "suicide bombers" is not that they have a particular desire to kill themselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle the problems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to kill someone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just how does killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to die in order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doing anyone any good? Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it just causes more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes more people turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'll only increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stop giving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of how to live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against. BB Peter - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 6, 2006 Report Share Posted June 6, 2006 Hi Soliel One more interesting thought.... I don't think that the destruction of statues is a good thing, but I find it interesting that a philosophy which teaches against materialism in every way, and whose adherents strive to transcend the material world, places so much emphasis on material things like statues... seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me... BB Peter - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:20 PM Re: Re: Ghandi i guess i should ask..."where" exactly are we suppose to go?? and, can i bring rebecca?? jo Jun 6, 2006 2:59 PM Re: Re: Ghandi Why would anyone want to go over there? Why does anyone have to do anything? We (US and UK) were not invaded, not threatened. We invaded their country, killed their people, bombed their infrastructure to smithereens, stuck our noses in where we should not have. If we had not, we may be safer today. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 hi peter, those are awesome words, we must want the same things in life on some level as a suicide bomber, for even they want to see their children grow healthy happy lives, too. someone isn't born a sucide bomber. we need to build trust and respect with their culture so that perhaps we can someday go back to the level of actually having a conversation with these people. i might fear it is too late for such figures as osama bin laden, because civilized communication, was lost on both sides a long time ago. , " Peter " <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Soliel > > Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with " suicide bombers " is not that they have a particular desire to kill themselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle the problems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to kill someone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just how does killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to die in order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doing anyone any good? > > Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it just causes more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes more people turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'll only increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stop giving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of how to live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against. > > BB > Peter > > - > lv2breathe > > Cc: Lv2breathe > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM > Re: Ghandi > > > > > Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. > > But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. > > Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. > > You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. > > Soliel > > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: > . Re: have you killed today? > Posted by: " Peter Kebbell " metalscarab snowbowe > Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT) > > Hi Anouk / Soliel > > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the > bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a > field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes > bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of > the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only > considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? > > BB > Peter > > Messages in this topic (13) > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hi all,I would like to add in a few things.I am someone who is anti-patriotic. I am from India.I just feel that patriotism is a feeling which increases very fast, and extreme patriotism is according to me synonymous to Terrorism. WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations? Is it the place where, in childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one " an eye should be, " piercing the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests? In short, is it love for the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a happy, joyous, and playful childhood?I don't think this is patriotism.What, then, is patriotism? " Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels, " said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the average workingman.Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.So, people, this is what I feel.ShivaOn 6/6/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato > wrote: hi peter, those are awesome words, we must want the same things in life on some level as a suicide bomber, for even they want to see their children grow healthy happy lives, too. someone isn't born a sucide bomber. we need to build trust and respect with their culture so that perhaps we can someday go back to the level of actually having a conversation with these people. i might fear it is too late for such figures as osama bin laden, because civilized communication, was lost on both sides a long time ago. , " Peter " <metalscarab wrote: > > Hi Soliel > > Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with " suicide bombers " is not that they have a particular desire to kill themselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle the problems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to kill someone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just how does killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to die in order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doing anyone any good? > > Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it just causes more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes more people turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'll only increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stop giving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of how to live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against. > > BB > Peter > > - > lv2breathe > > Cc: Lv2breathe > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM > Re: Ghandi > > > > > Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. > > But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. > > Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. > > You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. > > Soliel > > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: > . Re: have you killed today? > Posted by: " Peter Kebbell " metalscarab snowbowe > Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT) > > Hi Anouk / Soliel > > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of the > bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in a > field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takes > bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members of > the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery only > considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun? > > BB > Peter > > Messages in this topic (13) > -- ShivaGraduate Student,State University of New York,Binghamtonhttp://www.shiv.co.nrTo ease another's heartache is to forget one's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Fraggle I was talking about invading Iraq - which was totally unnecessary. JO - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:20 PM Re: Re: Ghandi i guess i should ask..."where" exactly are we suppose to go?? and, can i bring rebecca?? jo Jun 6, 2006 2:59 PM Re: Re: Ghandi Why would anyone want to go over there? Why does anyone have to do anything? We (US and UK) were not invaded, not threatened. We invaded their country, killed their people, bombed their infrastructure to smithereens, stuck our noses in where we should not have. If we had not, we may be safer today. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 i was aiming that question more at kristina's original statement tis all..not at you really Jo... jo Jun 7, 2006 9:07 AM Re: Re: Ghandi Hi Fraggle I was talking about invading Iraq - which was totally unnecessary. JO - fraggle Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:20 PM Re: Re: Ghandi i guess i should ask..."where" exactly are we suppose to go?? and, can i bring rebecca?? jo Jun 6, 2006 2:59 PM Re: Re: Ghandi Why would anyone want to go over there? Why does anyone have to do anything? We (US and UK) were not invaded, not threatened. We invaded their country, killed their people, bombed their infrastructure to smithereens, stuck our noses in where we should not have. If we had not, we may be safer today. Jo - lv2breathe Cc: Lv2breathe Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM Re: Ghandi Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a Ghandi is not going to effect them. Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different situation...your idea would fail miserably. Soliel In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes: .. Re: have you killed today? Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)Hi Anouk / Soliel> and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> than for him to be Brave and dead.I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. Surely one of thebravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to stand in afield surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. It takesbravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by members ofthe police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and bravery onlyconsidered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel of a gun?BBPeterMessages in this topic (13) I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see I don't wanna be no war hero Don't want a movie made about me I don't wanna be no war hero Just get away from the madness I see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Anouk > we must want the same things in life on some level as > a suicide bomber, for even they want to see > their children grow healthy happy lives, too. > someone isn't born a sucide bomber. > we need to build trust and respect with their culture > so that perhaps we can someday go back to the level > of actually having a conversation with these > people. Well said... as someone once said, one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.... a film that I found thoroughly interesting was " Michael Collins " - about the creation of the IRA in the 1920s, and the struggle for Irish freedom. It was incredible how I found myself sympathising with someone who I'd previously thought of as a horrific terrorist... BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 7, 2006 Report Share Posted June 7, 2006 Hi Shiva >I would like to add in a few things. >I am someone who is anti-patriotic. I am from India. I've snipped the rest of the e-mail to save space, but I wanted to say what wonderful words these are. I agree completely with you on patriotism - it's one of the many ways that we are taught to divide our society and look for differences rather than similarities, and to hate those differences... the world would be a much better place if we didn't have such concepts :-) BB Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 dear shiva, what you said was wonderful. , " Shiva K " <shgroups wrote: > > Hi all, > I would like to add in a few things. > I am someone who is anti-patriotic. I am from India. > I just feel that patriotism is a feeling which increases very fast, and > extreme patriotism is according to me synonymous to Terrorism. > WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's > recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations? Is it the place where, in > childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, > too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard > glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one " an eye should be, " piercing > the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen > to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to > distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured > by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests? In short, is it love for > the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a > happy, joyous, and playful childhood? > I don't think this is patriotism. > What, then, is patriotism? " Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of > scoundrels, " said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our > times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of > wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise > of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, > clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater > glory than that of the average workingman. > Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one > surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on > some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more > intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, > therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, > and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. > So, people, this is what I feel. > Shiva > > > On 6/6/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: > > > > hi peter, > > > > those are awesome words, > > > > we must want the same things in life on some level as > > a suicide bomber, for even they want to see > > their children grow healthy happy lives, too. > > > > someone isn't born a sucide bomber. > > > > we need to build trust and respect with their culture > > so that perhaps we can someday go back to the level > > of actually having a conversation with these > > people. > > > > i might fear it is too late for such figures as > > osama bin laden, > > > > because civilized communication, was lost on both sides > > a long time ago. > > > > > > <%40>, " Peter " > > <metalscarab@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Soliel > > > > > > Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with > > " suicide bombers " is not that they have a particular desire to kill > > themselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle the > > problems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to kill > > someone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just how > > does killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to die > > in order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doing > > anyone any good? > > > > > > Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it just > > causes more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes more > > people turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'll > > only increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stop > > giving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of how > > to live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against. > > > > > > BB > > > Peter > > > > > > - > > > lv2breathe@ > > > <%40> > > > Cc: Lv2breathe@ > > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM > > > Re: Ghandi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. > > > > > > But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because > > the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have > > zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a > > Ghandi is not going to effect them. > > > > > > Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist > > statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. > > > > > > You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy > > to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over > > there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different > > situation...your idea would fail miserably. > > > > > > Soliel > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > <%40> writes: > > > . Re: have you killed today? > > > Posted by: " Peter Kebbell " metalscarab@ snowbowe > > > > > Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT) > > > > > > Hi Anouk / Soliel > > > > > > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > > > > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > > > > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > > > > > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. > > Surely one of the > > > bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to > > stand in a > > > field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. > > It takes > > > bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by > > members of > > > the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and > > bravery only > > > considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel > > of a gun? > > > > > > BB > > > Peter > > > > > > Messages in this topic (13) > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Shiva > > Graduate Student, > State University of New York, > Binghamton > > http://www.shiv.co.nr > > To ease another's heartache is to forget one's own. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 cool. - Shiva K Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:50 AM Re: Re: Ghandi Hi all,I would like to add in a few things.I am someone who is anti-patriotic. I am from India.I just feel that patriotism is a feeling which increases very fast, and extreme patriotism is according to me synonymous to Terrorism. WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations? Is it the place where, in childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one "an eye should be," piercing the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests? In short, is it love for the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a happy, joyous, and playful childhood?I don't think this is patriotism.What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater glory than that of the average workingman.Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.So, people, this is what I feel.Shiva On 6/6/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato > wrote: hi peter,those are awesome words,we must want the same things in life on some level as a suicide bomber, for even they want to see their children grow healthy happy lives, too. someone isn't born a sucide bomber.we need to build trust and respect with their cultureso that perhaps we can someday go back to the level of actually having a conversation with these people.i might fear it is too late for such figures as osama bin laden, because civilized communication, was lost on both sides a long time ago. , "Peter" <metalscarab wrote:>> Hi Soliel> > Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with"suicide bombers" is not that they have a particular desire to killthemselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle theproblems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to killsomeone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just howdoes killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to diein order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doinganyone any good?> > Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it justcauses more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes morepeople turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'llonly increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stopgiving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of howto live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against.> > BB> Peter> > - > lv2breathe > > Cc: Lv2breathe > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM> Re: Ghandi> > > > > Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great.> > But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was becausethe Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who havezero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...aGhandi is not going to effect them.> > Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhiststatues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on.> > You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easyto say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go overthere and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally differentsituation...your idea would fail miserably.> > Soliel> > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, writes:> . Re: have you killed today? > Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab snowbowe > Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)> > Hi Anouk / Soliel> > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> > than for him to be Brave and dead.> > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence.Surely one of the> bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery tostand in a> field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest.It takes> bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted bymembers of> the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, andbravery only> considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrelof a gun?> > BB> Peter> > Messages in this topic (13)> -- ShivaGraduate Student,State University of New York,Binghamtonhttp://www.shiv.co.nrTo ease another's heartache is to forget one's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Oh wow .. first time am getting praised for saying this .. I said this to few people in my family, who wudnt care to listen ... thanks all,ShivaOn 6/8/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: dear shiva, what you said was wonderful. , " Shiva K " <shgroups wrote: > > Hi all, > I would like to add in a few things. > I am someone who is anti-patriotic. I am from India. > I just feel that patriotism is a feeling which increases very fast, and > extreme patriotism is according to me synonymous to Terrorism. > WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place of childhood's > recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations? Is it the place where, in > childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonder why we, > too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count the milliard > glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one " an eye should be, " piercing > the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we would listen > to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even as they, to > distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee, enraptured > by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests? In short, is it love for > the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a > happy, joyous, and playful childhood? > I don't think this is patriotism. > What, then, is patriotism? " Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of > scoundrels, " said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatest anti-patriot of our > times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify the training of > wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for the exercise > of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes, > clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater > glory than that of the average workingman. > Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one > surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on > some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more > intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, > therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, > and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. > So, people, this is what I feel. > Shiva > > > On 6/6/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: > > > > hi peter, > > > > those are awesome words, > > > > we must want the same things in life on some level as > > a suicide bomber, for even they want to see > > their children grow healthy happy lives, too. > > > > someone isn't born a sucide bomber. > > > > we need to build trust and respect with their culture > > so that perhaps we can someday go back to the level > > of actually having a conversation with these > > people. > > > > i might fear it is too late for such figures as > > osama bin laden, > > > > because civilized communication, was lost on both sides > > a long time ago. > > > > > > <%40>, " Peter " > > <metalscarab@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Soliel > > > > > > Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with > > " suicide bombers " is not that they have a particular desire to kill > > themselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle the > > problems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to kill > > someone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just how > > does killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to die > > in order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doing > > anyone any good? > > > > > > Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it just > > causes more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes more > > people turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'll > > only increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stop > > giving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of how > > to live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against. > > > > > > BB > > > Peter > > > > > > - > > > lv2breathe@ > > > <%40> > > > Cc: Lv2breathe@ > > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM > > > Re: Ghandi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great. > > > > > > But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because > > the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have > > zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a > > Ghandi is not going to effect them. > > > > > > Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist > > statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on. > > > > > > You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy > > to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over > > there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different > > situation...your idea would fail miserably. > > > > > > Soliel > > > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > <%40> writes: > > > . Re: have you killed today? > > > Posted by: " Peter Kebbell " metalscarab@ snowbowe > > > > > Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT) > > > > > > Hi Anouk / Soliel > > > > > > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son > > > > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive, > > > > than for him to be Brave and dead. > > > > > > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence. > > Surely one of the > > > bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to > > stand in a > > > field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest. > > It takes > > > bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by > > members of > > > the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and > > bravery only > > > considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel > > of a gun? > > > > > > BB > > > Peter > > > > > > Messages in this topic (13) > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Shiva > > Graduate Student, > State University of New York, > Binghamton > > http://www.shiv.co.nr > > To ease another's heartache is to forget one's own. > -- ShivaGraduate Student,State University of New York,Binghamtonhttp://www.shiv.co.nrTo ease another's heartache is to forget one's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 8, 2006 Report Share Posted June 8, 2006 Hi Shiva They may listen eventually :-) BBJo - Shiva K Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:02 PM Re: Re: Ghandi Oh wow .. first time am getting praised for saying this .. I said this to few people in my family, who wudnt care to listen ... thanks all,Shiva On 6/8/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote: dear shiva,what you said was wonderful. , "Shiva K" <shgroups wrote:>> Hi all,> I would like to add in a few things.> I am someone who is anti-patriotic. I am from India.> I just feel that patriotism is a feeling which increases very fast, and> extreme patriotism is according to me synonymous to Terrorism.> WHAT is patriotism? Is it love of one's birthplace, the place ofchildhood's> recollections and hopes, dreams and aspirations? Is it the placewhere, in> childlike naivete, we would watch the fleeting clouds, and wonderwhy we,> too, could not run so swiftly? The place where we would count themilliard> glittering stars, terror-stricken lest each one "an eye should be,"piercing> the very depths of our little souls? Is it the place where we wouldlisten> to the music of the birds, and long to have wings to fly, even asthey, to> distant lands? Or the place where we would sit at mother's knee,enraptured> by wonderful tales of great deeds and conquests? In short, is itlove for> the spot, every inch representing dear and precious recollections of a> happy, joyous, and playful childhood?> I don't think this is patriotism.> What, then, is patriotism? "Patriotism, sir, is the last resort of> scoundrels," said Dr. Johnson. Leo Tolstoy, the greatestanti-patriot of our> times, defines patriotism as the principle that will justify thetraining of> wholesale murderers; a trade that requires better equipment for theexercise> of man-killing than the making of such necessities of life as shoes,> clothing, and houses; a trade that guarantees better returns and greater> glory than that of the average workingman.> Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one> surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of beingborn on> some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more> intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is,> therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight,kill,> and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others.> So, people, this is what I feel.> Shiva> > > On 6/6/06, Anouk Sickler <zurumato wrote:> >> > hi peter,> >> > those are awesome words,> >> > we must want the same things in life on some level as> > a suicide bomber, for even they want to see> > their children grow healthy happy lives, too.> >> > someone isn't born a sucide bomber.> >> > we need to build trust and respect with their culture> > so that perhaps we can someday go back to the level> > of actually having a conversation with these> > people.> >> > i might fear it is too late for such figures as> > osama bin laden,> >> > because civilized communication, was lost on both sides> > a long time ago.> >> > > > <%40>, "Peter"> > <metalscarab@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi Soliel> > >> > > Ghandi would not work in those situations. But the real problem with> > "suicide bombers" is not that they have a particular desire to kill> > themselves, but rather that they feel it necessary to tackle the> > problems they are facing. Just how, exactly, does threatening to kill> > someone who is prepared to die help? And more to the point, just how> > does killing hundreds of thousands of people who *don't* want to die> > in order to get one or two fanatics who don't care if they die doing> > anyone any good?> > >> > > Simple fact is that violence has *never* solved anything - it just> > causes more and more problems, makes more people angry, makes more> > people turn to violence. You can't stop violence with violence, you'll> > only increase it that way. The only way to stop violence is to stop> > giving people reasons to be violent, and by setting an example of how> > to live without violence, not by giving them more to fight against.> > >> > > BB> > > Peter> > >> > > -> > > lv2breathe@ > > > <%40>> > > Cc: Lv2breathe@> > > Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:32 PM> > > Re: Ghandi> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > Yes, I agree, Ghandi was great.> > >> > > But let's not kidd ourselves. The reason he prevailed was because> > the Brits had a conscience. When you are dealing with people who have> > zero conscious and willing to blow themselves up for their cause...a> > Ghandi is not going to effect them.> > >> > > Just look at how the Muslims have treated the Buddhist> > statues...there is not reverence or respect whatsoever. Come on.> > >> > > You have to have real solutions for real problems. It's so easy> > to say Ghandi did it...OKay, if that is the case then YOU go over> > there and be like him and see what happens. It's a totally different> > situation...your idea would fail miserably.> > >> > > Soliel> > >> > >> > >> > > In a message dated 6/6/06 4:25:56 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > > <%40> writes:> > > . Re: have you killed today?> > > Posted by: "Peter Kebbell" metalscarab@ snowbowe> >> > > Tue Jun 6, 2006 1:37 am (PDT)> > >> > > Hi Anouk / Soliel> > >> > > > and I think sometimes, bravery is overated, I rather have my son> > > > be though of as a coward, and to be happy and alive,> > > > than for him to be Brave and dead.> > >> > > I also think that bravery is too often linked to violence.> > Surely one of the> > > bravest men ever to have lived was Ghandi. It takes bravery to> > stand in a> > > field surrounded by armed riot police and continue your protest.> > It takes> > > bravery to return to peace-protesting after being assaulted by> > members of> > > the police / army. Why are these forms of bravery ignored, and> > bravery only> > > considered genuine when it is conducted from behind the barrel> > of a gun?> > >> > > BB> > > Peter> > >> > > Messages in this topic (13)> > >> >> > > >> > > > -- > Shiva> > Graduate Student,> State University of New York,> Binghamton> > http://www.shiv.co.nr> > To ease another's heartache is to forget one's own.> -- ShivaGraduate Student,State University of New York,Binghamtonhttp://www.shiv.co.nrTo ease another's heartache is to forget one's own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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