RE: /Marcy/PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for National Hot Dog Day

July 23, 2007

Actually, I don’t see the world in absolutes. I just don’t

have 6 hours to write a dissertation. My responses to other posts clarify this.

The real issue I am addressing is cultural indoctrination; my method is shock

and awe.

The original post I was addressing involved someone complaining

about PETA’s sexist advertising. I saw that post as proclaiming “It’s

OK for animals to die as long as WOMEN ARE NOT TREATED AS SEX OBJECTS.” While

I do not approve of sexism in advertising I do see the need where PETA is

concerned. Therefore I sanction it and see complaints of this type as “throwing

the baby out with the bath water.”

You describe my view as simplistic. You proclaim that I see the

world in absolutes. This is not true. One certainly cannot discern the entire

philosophy of one individual from a single post of this type—as I cannot

discern yours. I was merely trying to invoke emotion concerning saving lives

and push the idea that sexism is a less important issue. What I wrote was more

of an advertisement than a detailed treatise on the subject. Unfortunately,

people have learned to think in sound bites [i am not referring to you here]. Long,

deliberative narratives bore and confuse “sheeple.”

I do see the majority of women as cultural victims, perhaps more

in the United States than in the Arab world. Some of the problems we all face

now are due to the exploitation of women by capitalism after the Second World

War. They worked for less money and were encouraged to stay in the workforce

and be independent. This encouragement was solely by profiteers who wanted

cheaper labor. We all lost. From this we have the decline of the family and an

atomistic society. I have been a house-husband in charge of educating the children

and homemaking. This is a 24-hour-a-day job and someone needs to do it; it is

hard work but it educates the future. I don’t care if the man does it or

the woman. Division of labor in a family is critical to the survival of the

family unit. The Anthropologists Margaret Meade and Colin Turnbull concur on

this.

You mentioned change. I agree with Tennessee Williams and George

Bernard Shaw that people do change, just not quickly enough. In his play “Cat

on a Hot Tin Roof” as originally written Maggie had to hide the booze

bottle behind her back to get her husband in bed. Change does not happen

overnight. Change is gradual. This one fact irritates me the most since we need

the changes now.

Your last line includes “they are more than likely

viscerally repulsed by your biased and prejudicial views.” Thanks for the

ad hominem! I thought “the straw man” died with Richard Nixon but

you and G W Bush are keeping him alive! That sharp retort was directed at me

with unrestrained venom. This is the kind of one-liner I am trying to learn to

avoid. I am not repulsed my views, actually. I am glad that women, such as you,

have chosen to be different than the rest against incredible odds. You are

truly at the forefront of the change we need to see happen. It gives me a

thrill to see someone such as you step up to the plate and choose not to be a

victim. I would hug you but you would probably be offended by my unrestrained

joy [i am being serious, this is not a joke].

Your reply included “Some people call the PETA sort of

advertising exploitative. I don't see it that way, but I've heard

many call it that. Marketing is often that way.” Thank you for your

statement. I disagree. I believe that the advertising is exploitive but

necessary. When we get the flood of blood down to a trickle I would like to end

that kind of advertising; I am offended by sexism. This is one of the reasons I

refuse to watch the Almighty Televison Set, Spiritual Leader of the Sheeple.

I do feel sorry for the victims on both sides. A cattle prod

gets victims moving better than a carrot and that is what my original post was—a

sharp zap in the behind!

I agree with everything you wrote except the ad hominem venom

you directed at the straw man. I am guilty of oversimplification in my original

post and, for your benefit, I retract it. Please rewrite all black and white as

shades of grey. The venom you bit me with is wonderful. If we can bottle that

kind of emotion we have a chance to change the world.

Thank you for your heart-felt response. The world truly needs

more women like you.

Don and Chloe the U2

On Behalf Of Marcy

Monday, July 23, 2007 9:45 AM

Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for National

Hot Dog Day

Don-

you suffer from a common malady. You see

the world in absolutes.

It's called stereotyping. Obviously, you

must know that some of us doesn't represent the entire population of

that group. Further, people do change. Nothing really

stays the same.

If you want change, you should work for

it. Be the change you want to see, as they say.

For example, as a woman, I used to shave,

wear make up, high-heeled shoes, stockings, etc......

Now, I don't do any of those things. I've

shifted my entire lifestyle. But there are still lots of women who

still do those things. They aren't all like me. In fact, there

are entire cultures in which women don't do all those things. I just

don't live in one of them.

How many men, do you suppose, like women with

unshaven hair in the usually-shaved places? There are strong societal

pressures to conform, in every society.

How much marketing is done to ensure that men

and women conform to stereotypes? Doesn't that SELL products, when

manufacturers can predict behaviors to match their products? Or when they

can develop products to match those behaviors?

It's a pretty simplistic assessment (or view) of

the world, to refer to " women " as if they are all the same.

It's equally simplistic to refer to " men " as if they are all the

same.

It's likewise simplistic to view any entire

group as all the same, be they Americans, French, Jews, New Yorkers, even

animals, dogs, cats, horses. We all have different

personalities.

Further, you come dangerously close to " blaming

the victim " . Some people call the PETA sort of advertising

exploitative. I don't see it that way, but I've heard many call it

that. Marketing is often that way. But if you do see women as

exploited, and therefore victimized, what Don is doing is blaming the victim,

as in a rape, when someone says the woman " deserved " it.

It's never a good idea to judge an entire group

by the behavior of a segment of that group.

You don't only " upset " the

" female crowd " when you engage in stereptyping. You do a

disservice to all humans, animals and yourself. " Upset " is the

not the correct word to use, either.

When you use stereotypes as you have, you are

more revealing about your own prejudices than you are about anyone

else. You incorrectly deem someone " upset " by

your statements, but in reality, they are more than likely viscerally

repulsed by your biased and prejudicial views.

Marcy

-

heartwerk

Monday, July 23, 2007 8:47 AM

Re: PETA and Playboy

Playmates Team up for National Hot Dog Day

Do you always think that because a number of people do

something,

everyone else should be looked on in the same way?

Presumably because some women are prostitues the rest of the female

population can be considered so, and because some men use prostitutes

the rest of the male population can be considered that way!

Maybe a rethink might be a good idea.

Jo

,

" Don Scott " <donscott wrote:

>

> Sex and violence drive most advertising campaigns. My next

statement will

> probably upset the female crowd but here goes. As long as women

paint

> themselves up like clowns to attract the opposite sex I have no

problem with

> this kind of advertizing. When the majority of women stop dying

their hair

> (two two-tone striped skunk look is now popular) and dressing up as

if they

> were trying to get someone to buy them dinner then I will condemn

sexist

> ads. Until then, we must do whatever is needed to try and stop the

> slaughter. I support PETA and wish females would stop wasting money

on boob

> jobs, makeup, perfume and the accoutrements of sexual attraction

and SPEND

> THEIR MONEY ON SAVING LIVES!

>

> Most females I know just don't realize that men would be attracted

to them

> if they wore khaki's and combat boots. We don't need to be sold.

Ask any guy

> leaving a bar at 2PM and he will tell you the same.

>

On

> Behalf Of Peter VV

> Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:24 PM

>

> Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

National Hot

> Dog Day

>

> I seriously doubt if campaigns like this turn people vegan, but

probably

> would get their attention more than normal people......its

appealing to the

> base instincts in men isnt it?

>

> Now if they were vegan as well as models then that would be

different, as

> they would be able to show that there are vegan models out there,

but I

> doubt that they were........

>

> all I ever find in my salads is insects.............

>

> The Valley Vegan...........

>

> flower child <zurumato wrote:

>

> that is sexist.

>

> If they are going to use this approach, I don't understand why they

> can't use real women. Not cartoon-like ones with plastic on their

> chest. The important question would be however, if campaigns like

this

> actually turn people vegan?

>

<%

40> ,

> Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > I admit it, I am a sexist pig hence the following

article/photo......

> >

> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8206629@N05/847091608

> >

> > What were two Playboy playmates-wearing nothing but

> strategically-placed lettuce leaves-doing earlier today outside the

> House of Representatives' Rayburn building? Besides handing out free

> veggie dogs with reps from PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of

> Animals), the self-proclaimed " Lettuce Ladies " were on the Hill

to

> counter National Hot Dog Day. Inside Rayburn, the American Meat

> Institute celebrated the occasion with assorted Major League

baseball

> sluggers and congressmen.

> >

>

> Peter H

>

> <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif>

>

> _____

>

> Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

>

<http://uk.answers./;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTA

Ec2VjA

> 21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU> it now.

>

July 23, 2007

Hi Don

> I saw that post as proclaiming “It’s OK for animals to die as long as WOMEN ARE NOT TREATED AS SEX OBJECTS.”

The way your posts are coming across to me is: "It's OK to treat women as sex objects, as long as a few people stop killing animals as a result". I don't see the two concepts as being mutually exclusive - surely we should be attempting to prevent both animals dying, and women being treated as sex objects.

I think people who are stupid enough to be drawn to an advertising campaign because it has semi naked women in it, really aren't going to have the intelligence, or the compassion to give a fig about animals. After all, if they can't even have respect for their own species, how can they possibly have respect for other species?

BB

Peter

July 24, 2007

You say that using women as sex objects to save animals lives is a

good idea.

It would be niave in the extreme to think that this could happen.

People who are attracted to the women in the adverts are not going to

take on board the message hidden somewhere in the advert about not

eating meat, are they now? I bet that most people who are attracted

to the photos wouldn't even read the writing.

Jo

, " Don Scott " <donscott wrote:

>

> Actually, I don't see the world in absolutes. I just don't have 6

hours to

> write a dissertation. My responses to other posts clarify this. The

real

> issue I am addressing is cultural indoctrination; my method is

shock and

> awe.

>

> The original post I was addressing involved someone complaining

about PETA's

> sexist advertising. I saw that post as proclaiming " It's OK for

animals to

> die as long as WOMEN ARE NOT TREATED AS SEX OBJECTS. " While I do

not approve

> of sexism in advertising I do see the need where PETA is concerned.

> Therefore I sanction it and see complaints of this type

as " throwing the

> baby out with the bath water. "

>

> You describe my view as simplistic. You proclaim that I see the

world in

> absolutes. This is not true. One certainly cannot discern the entire

> philosophy of one individual from a single post of this type-as I

cannot

> discern yours. I was merely trying to invoke emotion concerning

saving lives

> and push the idea that sexism is a less important issue. What I

wrote was

> more of an advertisement than a detailed treatise on the subject.

> Unfortunately, people have learned to think in sound bites [i am not

> referring to you here]. Long, deliberative narratives bore and

confuse

> " sheeple. "

>

> I do see the majority of women as cultural victims, perhaps more in

the

> United States than in the Arab world. Some of the problems we all

face now

> are due to the exploitation of women by capitalism after the Second

World

> War. They worked for less money and were encouraged to stay in the

workforce

> and be independent. This encouragement was solely by profiteers who

wanted

> cheaper labor. We all lost. From this we have the decline of the

family and

> an atomistic society. I have been a house-husband in charge of

educating the

> children and homemaking. This is a 24-hour-a-day job and someone

needs to do

> it; it is hard work but it educates the future. I don't care if the

man does

> it or the woman. Division of labor in a family is critical to the

survival

> of the family unit. The Anthropologists Margaret Meade and Colin

Turnbull

> concur on this.

>

> You mentioned change. I agree with Tennessee Williams and George

Bernard

> Shaw that people do change, just not quickly enough. In his

play " Cat on a

> Hot Tin Roof " as originally written Maggie had to hide the booze

bottle

> behind her back to get her husband in bed. Change does not happen

overnight.

> Change is gradual. This one fact irritates me the most since we

need the

> changes now.

>

> Your last line includes " they are more than likely viscerally

repulsed by

> your biased and prejudicial views. " Thanks for the ad hominem! I

thought

> " the straw man " died with Richard Nixon but you and G W Bush are

keeping him

> alive! That sharp retort was directed at me with unrestrained

venom. This is

> the kind of one-liner I am trying to learn to avoid. I am not

repulsed my

> views, actually. I am glad that women, such as you, have chosen to

be

> different than the rest against incredible odds. You are truly at

the

> forefront of the change we need to see happen. It gives me a thrill

to see

> someone such as you step up to the plate and choose not to be a

victim. I

> would hug you but you would probably be offended by my unrestrained

joy [i

> am being serious, this is not a joke].

>

> Your reply included " Some people call the PETA sort of advertising

> exploitative. I don't see it that way, but I've heard many call it

that.

> Marketing is often that way. " Thank you for your statement. I

disagree. I

> believe that the advertising is exploitive but necessary. When we

get the

> flood of blood down to a trickle I would like to end that kind of

> advertising; I am offended by sexism. This is one of the reasons I

refuse to

> watch the Almighty Televison Set, Spiritual Leader of the Sheeple.

>

> I do feel sorry for the victims on both sides. A cattle prod gets

victims

> moving better than a carrot and that is what my original post was-a

sharp

> zap in the behind!

>

> I agree with everything you wrote except the ad hominem venom you

directed

> at the straw man. I am guilty of oversimplification in my original

post and,

> for your benefit, I retract it. Please rewrite all black and white

as shades

> of grey. The venom you bit me with is wonderful. If we can bottle

that kind

> of emotion we have a chance to change the world.

>

> Thank you for your heart-felt response. The world truly needs more

women

> like you.

>

> Don and Chloe the U2

>

On

> Behalf Of Marcy

> Monday, July 23, 2007 9:45 AM

>

> Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

National Hot

> Dog Day

>

> Don-

>

> you suffer from a common malady. You see the world in absolutes.

>

> It's called stereotyping. Obviously, you must know that some of

us doesn't

> represent the entire population of that group. Further, people

do change.

> Nothing really stays the same.

>

> If you want change, you should work for it. Be the change you want

to see,

> as they say.

>

> For example, as a woman, I used to shave, wear make up, high-heeled

shoes,

> stockings, etc......

>

> Now, I don't do any of those things. I've shifted my entire

lifestyle. But

> there are still lots of women who still do those things. They

aren't all

> like me. In fact, there are entire cultures in which women don't

do all

> those things. I just don't live in one of them.

>

> How many men, do you suppose, like women with unshaven hair in the

> usually-shaved places? There are strong societal pressures to

conform, in

> every society.

>

> How much marketing is done to ensure that men and women conform to

> stereotypes? Doesn't that SELL products, when manufacturers can

predict

> behaviors to match their products? Or when they can develop

products to

> match those behaviors?

>

> It's a pretty simplistic assessment (or view) of the world, to

refer to

> " women " as if they are all the same. It's equally simplistic to

refer to

> " men " as if they are all the same.

>

> It's likewise simplistic to view any entire group as all the same,

be they

> Americans, French, Jews, New Yorkers, even animals, dogs, cats,

horses. We

> all have different personalities.

>

> Further, you come dangerously close to " blaming the victim " . Some

people

> call the PETA sort of advertising exploitative. I don't see it

that way,

> but I've heard many call it that. Marketing is often that way.

But if you

> do see women as exploited, and therefore victimized, what Don is

doing is

> blaming the victim, as in a rape, when someone says the

woman " deserved " it.

>

> It's never a good idea to judge an entire group by the behavior of

a segment

> of that group.

>

> You don't only " upset " the " female crowd " when you engage in

stereptyping.

> You do a disservice to all humans, animals and yourself. " Upset "

is the not

> the correct word to use, either.

>

> When you use stereotypes as you have, you are more revealing about

your own

> prejudices than you are about anyone else. You incorrectly deem

someone

> " upset " by your statements, but in reality, they are more than

likely

> viscerally repulsed by your biased and prejudicial views.

>

> Marcy

>

> -

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork

>

> Monday, July 23, 2007 8:47 AM

>

> Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

National Hot

> Dog Day

>

> Do you always think that because a number of people do something,

> everyone else should be looked on in the same way?

>

> Presumably because some women are prostitues the rest of the female

> population can be considered so, and because some men use

prostitutes

> the rest of the male population can be considered that way!

>

> Maybe a rethink might be a good idea.

>

> Jo

>

> <%

40> ,

> " Don Scott " <donscott@> wrote:

> >

> > Sex and violence drive most advertising campaigns. My next

> statement will

> > probably upset the female crowd but here goes. As long as women

> paint

> > themselves up like clowns to attract the opposite sex I have no

> problem with

> > this kind of advertizing. When the majority of women stop dying

> their hair

> > (two two-tone striped skunk look is now popular) and dressing up

as

> if they

> > were trying to get someone to buy them dinner then I will condemn

> sexist

> > ads. Until then, we must do whatever is needed to try and stop the

> > slaughter. I support PETA and wish females would stop wasting

money

> on boob

> > jobs, makeup, perfume and the accoutrements of sexual attraction

> and SPEND

> > THEIR MONEY ON SAVING LIVES!

> >

> > Most females I know just don't realize that men would be

attracted

> to them

> > if they wore khaki's and combat boots. We don't need to be sold.

> Ask any guy

> > leaving a bar at 2PM and he will tell you the same.

> >

> > <%

40>

> [ <%

40> ]

> On

> > Behalf Of Peter VV

> > Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:24 PM

> > <%

40>

> > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

> National Hot

> > Dog Day

> >

> > I seriously doubt if campaigns like this turn people vegan, but

> probably

> > would get their attention more than normal people......its

> appealing to the

> > base instincts in men isnt it?

> >

> > Now if they were vegan as well as models then that would be

> different, as

> > they would be able to show that there are vegan models out there,

> but I

> > doubt that they were........

> >

> > all I ever find in my salads is insects.............

> >

> > The Valley Vegan...........

> >

> > flower child <zurumato@> wrote:

> >

> > that is sexist.

> >

> > If they are going to use this approach, I don't understand why

they

> > can't use real women. Not cartoon-like ones with plastic on their

> > chest. The important question would be however, if campaigns like

> this

> > actually turn people vegan?

> >

> > <%

40>

> <%

> 40> ,

> > Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I admit it, I am a sexist pig hence the following

> article/photo......

> > >

> > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8206629@N05/847091608

> > >

> > > What were two Playboy playmates-wearing nothing but

> > strategically-placed lettuce leaves-doing earlier today outside

the

> > House of Representatives' Rayburn building? Besides handing out

free

> > veggie dogs with reps from PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment

of

> > Animals), the self-proclaimed " Lettuce Ladies " were on the Hill to

> > counter National Hot Dog Day. Inside Rayburn, the American Meat

> > Institute celebrated the occasion with assorted Major League

> baseball

> > sluggers and congressmen.

> > >

> >

> > Peter H

> >

> > <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif>

> >

> > _____

> >

> > Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

> >

>

<http://uk.answers./;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTA

> Ec2VjA

> > 21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU> it now.

> >

>

July 24, 2007

You are right Jo, I was attracted to the photots, nd I didnt read the writing................ not helping am I? Ah well, back to my beer........... The Valley Vegan............heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote: You say that using women as sex objects to save animals lives is a good idea.It would be niave in the extreme to think that this could happen. People who are attracted to the women in the adverts are not going to take on board

the message hidden somewhere in the advert about not eating meat, are they now? I bet that most people who are attracted to the photos wouldn't even read the writing.Jo , "Don Scott" <donscott wrote:>> Actually, I don't see the world in absolutes. I just don't have 6 hours to> write a dissertation. My responses to other posts clarify this. The real> issue I am addressing is cultural indoctrination; my method is shock and> awe.> > > > The original post I was addressing involved someone complaining about PETA's> sexist advertising. I saw that post as proclaiming "It's OK for animals to> die as long as WOMEN ARE NOT TREATED AS SEX OBJECTS." While I do not approve> of sexism in advertising I do see the need where PETA is concerned.>

Therefore I sanction it and see complaints of this type as "throwing the> baby out with the bath water." > > > > You describe my view as simplistic. You proclaim that I see the world in> absolutes. This is not true. One certainly cannot discern the entire> philosophy of one individual from a single post of this type-as I cannot> discern yours. I was merely trying to invoke emotion concerning saving lives> and push the idea that sexism is a less important issue. What I wrote was> more of an advertisement than a detailed treatise on the subject.> Unfortunately, people have learned to think in sound bites [i am not> referring to you here]. Long, deliberative narratives bore and confuse> "sheeple."> > > > I do see the majority of women as cultural victims, perhaps more in the> United States than in the Arab world. Some of the

problems we all face now> are due to the exploitation of women by capitalism after the Second World> War. They worked for less money and were encouraged to stay in the workforce> and be independent. This encouragement was solely by profiteers who wanted> cheaper labor. We all lost. From this we have the decline of the family and> an atomistic society. I have been a house-husband in charge of educating the> children and homemaking. This is a 24-hour-a-day job and someone needs to do> it; it is hard work but it educates the future. I don't care if the man does> it or the woman. Division of labor in a family is critical to the survival> of the family unit. The Anthropologists Margaret Meade and Colin Turnbull> concur on this.> > > > You mentioned change. I agree with Tennessee Williams and George Bernard> Shaw that people do

change, just not quickly enough. In his play "Cat on a> Hot Tin Roof" as originally written Maggie had to hide the booze bottle> behind her back to get her husband in bed. Change does not happen overnight.> Change is gradual. This one fact irritates me the most since we need the> changes now. > > > > Your last line includes "they are more than likely viscerally repulsed by> your biased and prejudicial views." Thanks for the ad hominem! I thought> "the straw man" died with Richard Nixon but you and G W Bush are keeping him> alive! That sharp retort was directed at me with unrestrained venom. This is> the kind of one-liner I am trying to learn to avoid. I am not repulsed my> views, actually. I am glad that women, such as you, have chosen to be> different than the rest against incredible odds. You are truly at the> forefront of

the change we need to see happen. It gives me a thrill to see> someone such as you step up to the plate and choose not to be a victim. I> would hug you but you would probably be offended by my unrestrained joy [i> am being serious, this is not a joke].> > > > Your reply included "Some people call the PETA sort of advertising> exploitative. I don't see it that way, but I've heard many call it that.> Marketing is often that way." Thank you for your statement. I disagree. I> believe that the advertising is exploitive but necessary. When we get the> flood of blood down to a trickle I would like to end that kind of> advertising; I am offended by sexism. This is one of the reasons I refuse to> watch the Almighty Televison Set, Spiritual Leader of the Sheeple.> > > > I do feel sorry for the victims on both sides. A cattle prod gets

victims> moving better than a carrot and that is what my original post was-a sharp> zap in the behind!> > > > I agree with everything you wrote except the ad hominem venom you directed> at the straw man. I am guilty of oversimplification in my original post and,> for your benefit, I retract it. Please rewrite all black and white as shades> of grey. The venom you bit me with is wonderful. If we can bottle that kind> of emotion we have a chance to change the world.> > > > Thank you for your heart-felt response. The world truly needs more women> like you. > > > > Don and Chloe the U2> > > > > >

On> Behalf Of Marcy> Monday, July 23, 2007 9:45 AM> > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for National Hot> Dog Day> > > > Don-> > you suffer from a common malady. You see the world in absolutes.> > > > It's called stereotyping. Obviously, you must know that some of us doesn't> represent the entire population of that group. Further, people do change.> Nothing really stays the same. > > > > If you want change, you should work for it. Be the change you want to see,> as they say.> > > > For example, as a woman, I used to shave, wear make up, high-heeled shoes,> stockings, etc......> > > > Now, I don't do any of those things.

I've shifted my entire lifestyle. But> there are still lots of women who still do those things. They aren't all> like me. In fact, there are entire cultures in which women don't do all> those things. I just don't live in one of them.> > > > How many men, do you suppose, like women with unshaven hair in the> usually-shaved places? There are strong societal pressures to conform, in> every society. > > > > How much marketing is done to ensure that men and women conform to> stereotypes? Doesn't that SELL products, when manufacturers can predict> behaviors to match their products? Or when they can develop products to> match those behaviors?> > > > It's a pretty simplistic assessment (or view) of the world, to refer to> "women" as if they are all the same. It's equally simplistic to refer to>

"men" as if they are all the same. > > > > It's likewise simplistic to view any entire group as all the same, be they> Americans, French, Jews, New Yorkers, even animals, dogs, cats, horses. We> all have different personalities. > > > > Further, you come dangerously close to "blaming the victim". Some people> call the PETA sort of advertising exploitative. I don't see it that way,> but I've heard many call it that. Marketing is often that way. But if you> do see women as exploited, and therefore victimized, what Don is doing is> blaming the victim, as in a rape, when someone says the woman "deserved" it.> > > > It's never a good idea to judge an entire group by the behavior of a segment> of that group. > > > > You don't only "upset" the "female crowd" when you engage in

stereptyping.> You do a disservice to all humans, animals and yourself. "Upset" is the not> the correct word to use, either. > > > > When you use stereotypes as you have, you are more revealing about your own> prejudices than you are about anyone else. You incorrectly deem someone> "upset" by your statements, but in reality, they are more than likely> viscerally repulsed by your biased and prejudicial views.> > > > Marcy> > > > > > - > > heartwerk <jo.heartwork > > > > Monday, July 23, 2007 8:47 AM> > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for National Hot> Dog Day> >

> > Do you always think that because a number of people do something, > everyone else should be looked on in the same way?> > Presumably because some women are prostitues the rest of the female > population can be considered so, and because some men use prostitutes > the rest of the male population can be considered that way!> > Maybe a rethink might be a good idea.> > Jo> > <%40> ,> "Don Scott" <donscott@> wrote:> >> > Sex and violence drive most advertising campaigns. My next > statement will> > probably upset the female crowd but here goes. As long as women > paint> > themselves up like clowns to attract the opposite sex I have no > problem with> > this

kind of advertizing. When the majority of women stop dying > their hair> > (two two-tone striped skunk look is now popular) and dressing up as > if they> > were trying to get someone to buy them dinner then I will condemn > sexist> > ads. Until then, we must do whatever is needed to try and stop the> > slaughter. I support PETA and wish females would stop wasting money > on boob> > jobs, makeup, perfume and the accoutrements of sexual attraction > and SPEND> > THEIR MONEY ON SAVING LIVES!> > > > > > > > Most females I know just don't realize that men would be attracted > to them> > if they wore khaki's and combat boots. We don't need to be sold. > Ask any guy> > leaving a bar at 2PM and he will tell you the same.> > > > > > > > <%40> > [ <%40> ]> On> > Behalf Of Peter VV> > Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:24 PM> > <%40> > > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for > National Hot> > Dog Day> > > > > > > > I seriously doubt if campaigns like this turn people vegan, but > probably> > would get their attention more than normal people......its > appealing to the> > base instincts in men isnt it?> > > >

Now if they were vegan as well as models then that would be > different, as> > they would be able to show that there are vegan models out there, > but I> > doubt that they were........> > > > all I ever find in my salads is insects.............> > > > > > > > The Valley Vegan...........> > > > flower child <zurumato@> wrote:> > > > that is sexist. > > > > If they are going to use this approach, I don't understand why they> > can't use real women. Not cartoon-like ones with plastic on their> > chest. The important question would be however, if campaigns like > this> > actually turn people vegan? > > > >

<%40>> <%> 40> ,> > Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:> > >> > > I admit it, I am a sexist pig hence the following > article/photo......> > > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8206629@N05/847091608> > > > > > What were two Playboy playmates-wearing nothing but> > strategically-placed lettuce leaves-doing earlier today outside the> > House of Representatives' Rayburn building? Besides handing out free> > veggie dogs with reps from PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of> > Animals), the self-proclaimed "Lettuce Ladies" were on the Hill to> > counter National Hot Dog Day. Inside Rayburn, the American Meat> >

Institute celebrated the occasion with assorted Major League > baseball> > sluggers and congressmen.> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > Peter H > > > > <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif> > > > > > > > > _____ > > > > Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try> > > <http://uk.answers./;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTA> Ec2VjA> > 21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU> it now.> >>Peter H

Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

it now.

July 25, 2007

Hi Peter

While I am not keen on the subject at least you are being honest and

not making excuses.

Jo

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> You are right Jo, I was attracted to the photots, nd I didnt read

the writing................

> not helping am I?

> Ah well, back to my beer...........

>

> The Valley Vegan............

>

> heartwerk <jo.heartwork wrote:

> You say that using women as sex objects to save animals

lives is a

> good idea.

>

> It would be niave in the extreme to think that this could happen.

> People who are attracted to the women in the adverts are not going

to

> take on board the message hidden somewhere in the advert about not

> eating meat, are they now? I bet that most people who are attracted

> to the photos wouldn't even read the writing.

>

> Jo

>

> , " Don Scott " <donscott@> wrote:

> >

> > Actually, I don't see the world in absolutes. I just don't have 6

> hours to

> > write a dissertation. My responses to other posts clarify this.

The

> real

> > issue I am addressing is cultural indoctrination; my method is

> shock and

> > awe.

> >

> > The original post I was addressing involved someone complaining

> about PETA's

> > sexist advertising. I saw that post as proclaiming " It's OK for

> animals to

> > die as long as WOMEN ARE NOT TREATED AS SEX OBJECTS. " While I do

> not approve

> > of sexism in advertising I do see the need where PETA is

concerned.

> > Therefore I sanction it and see complaints of this type

> as " throwing the

> > baby out with the bath water. "

> >

> > You describe my view as simplistic. You proclaim that I see the

> world in

> > absolutes. This is not true. One certainly cannot discern the

entire

> > philosophy of one individual from a single post of this type-as I

> cannot

> > discern yours. I was merely trying to invoke emotion concerning

> saving lives

> > and push the idea that sexism is a less important issue. What I

> wrote was

> > more of an advertisement than a detailed treatise on the subject.

> > Unfortunately, people have learned to think in sound bites [i am

not

> > referring to you here]. Long, deliberative narratives bore and

> confuse

> > " sheeple. "

> >

> > I do see the majority of women as cultural victims, perhaps more

in

> the

> > United States than in the Arab world. Some of the problems we all

> face now

> > are due to the exploitation of women by capitalism after the

Second

> World

> > War. They worked for less money and were encouraged to stay in

the

> workforce

> > and be independent. This encouragement was solely by profiteers

who

> wanted

> > cheaper labor. We all lost. From this we have the decline of the

> family and

> > an atomistic society. I have been a house-husband in charge of

> educating the

> > children and homemaking. This is a 24-hour-a-day job and someone

> needs to do

> > it; it is hard work but it educates the future. I don't care if

the

> man does

> > it or the woman. Division of labor in a family is critical to the

> survival

> > of the family unit. The Anthropologists Margaret Meade and Colin

> Turnbull

> > concur on this.

> >

> > You mentioned change. I agree with Tennessee Williams and George

> Bernard

> > Shaw that people do change, just not quickly enough. In his

> play " Cat on a

> > Hot Tin Roof " as originally written Maggie had to hide the booze

> bottle

> > behind her back to get her husband in bed. Change does not happen

> overnight.

> > Change is gradual. This one fact irritates me the most since we

> need the

> > changes now.

> >

> > Your last line includes " they are more than likely viscerally

> repulsed by

> > your biased and prejudicial views. " Thanks for the ad hominem! I

> thought

> > " the straw man " died with Richard Nixon but you and G W Bush are

> keeping him

> > alive! That sharp retort was directed at me with unrestrained

> venom. This is

> > the kind of one-liner I am trying to learn to avoid. I am not

> repulsed my

> > views, actually. I am glad that women, such as you, have chosen

to

> be

> > different than the rest against incredible odds. You are truly at

> the

> > forefront of the change we need to see happen. It gives me a

thrill

> to see

> > someone such as you step up to the plate and choose not to be a

> victim. I

> > would hug you but you would probably be offended by my

unrestrained

> joy [i

> > am being serious, this is not a joke].

> >

> > Your reply included " Some people call the PETA sort of advertising

> > exploitative. I don't see it that way, but I've heard many call

it

> that.

> > Marketing is often that way. " Thank you for your statement. I

> disagree. I

> > believe that the advertising is exploitive but necessary. When we

> get the

> > flood of blood down to a trickle I would like to end that kind of

> > advertising; I am offended by sexism. This is one of the reasons

I

> refuse to

> > watch the Almighty Televison Set, Spiritual Leader of the Sheeple.

> >

> > I do feel sorry for the victims on both sides. A cattle prod gets

> victims

> > moving better than a carrot and that is what my original post was-

a

> sharp

> > zap in the behind!

> >

> > I agree with everything you wrote except the ad hominem venom you

> directed

> > at the straw man. I am guilty of oversimplification in my

original

> post and,

> > for your benefit, I retract it. Please rewrite all black and

white

> as shades

> > of grey. The venom you bit me with is wonderful. If we can bottle

> that kind

> > of emotion we have a chance to change the world.

> >

> > Thank you for your heart-felt response. The world truly needs

more

> women

> > like you.

> >

> > Don and Chloe the U2

> >

> On

> > Behalf Of Marcy

> > Monday, July 23, 2007 9:45 AM

> >

> > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

> National Hot

> > Dog Day

> >

> > Don-

> >

> > you suffer from a common malady. You see the world in absolutes.

> >

> > It's called stereotyping. Obviously, you must know that some of

> us doesn't

> > represent the entire population of that group. Further, people

> do change.

> > Nothing really stays the same.

> >

> > If you want change, you should work for it. Be the change you

want

> to see,

> > as they say.

> >

> > For example, as a woman, I used to shave, wear make up, high-

heeled

> shoes,

> > stockings, etc......

> >

> > Now, I don't do any of those things. I've shifted my entire

> lifestyle. But

> > there are still lots of women who still do those things. They

> aren't all

> > like me. In fact, there are entire cultures in which women don't

> do all

> > those things. I just don't live in one of them.

> >

> > How many men, do you suppose, like women with unshaven hair in the

> > usually-shaved places? There are strong societal pressures to

> conform, in

> > every society.

> >

> > How much marketing is done to ensure that men and women conform to

> > stereotypes? Doesn't that SELL products, when manufacturers can

> predict

> > behaviors to match their products? Or when they can develop

> products to

> > match those behaviors?

> >

> > It's a pretty simplistic assessment (or view) of the world, to

> refer to

> > " women " as if they are all the same. It's equally simplistic to

> refer to

> > " men " as if they are all the same.

> >

> > It's likewise simplistic to view any entire group as all the

same,

> be they

> > Americans, French, Jews, New Yorkers, even animals, dogs, cats,

> horses. We

> > all have different personalities.

> >

> > Further, you come dangerously close to " blaming the victim " . Some

> people

> > call the PETA sort of advertising exploitative. I don't see it

> that way,

> > but I've heard many call it that. Marketing is often that way.

> But if you

> > do see women as exploited, and therefore victimized, what Don is

> doing is

> > blaming the victim, as in a rape, when someone says the

> woman " deserved " it.

> >

> > It's never a good idea to judge an entire group by the behavior

of

> a segment

> > of that group.

> >

> > You don't only " upset " the " female crowd " when you engage in

> stereptyping.

> > You do a disservice to all humans, animals and yourself. " Upset "

> is the not

> > the correct word to use, either.

> >

> > When you use stereotypes as you have, you are more revealing

about

> your own

> > prejudices than you are about anyone else. You incorrectly deem

> someone

> > " upset " by your statements, but in reality, they are more than

> likely

> > viscerally repulsed by your biased and prejudicial views.

> >

> > Marcy

> >

> > -

> >

> > heartwerk <jo.heartwork@>

> >

> > Monday, July 23, 2007 8:47 AM

> >

> > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

> National Hot

> > Dog Day

> >

> > Do you always think that because a number of people do something,

> > everyone else should be looked on in the same way?

> >

> > Presumably because some women are prostitues the rest of the

female

> > population can be considered so, and because some men use

> prostitutes

> > the rest of the male population can be considered that way!

> >

> > Maybe a rethink might be a good idea.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > <%

> 40> ,

> > " Don Scott " <donscott@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Sex and violence drive most advertising campaigns. My next

> > statement will

> > > probably upset the female crowd but here goes. As long as women

> > paint

> > > themselves up like clowns to attract the opposite sex I have no

> > problem with

> > > this kind of advertizing. When the majority of women stop dying

> > their hair

> > > (two two-tone striped skunk look is now popular) and dressing

up

> as

> > if they

> > > were trying to get someone to buy them dinner then I will

condemn

> > sexist

> > > ads. Until then, we must do whatever is needed to try and stop

the

> > > slaughter. I support PETA and wish females would stop wasting

> money

> > on boob

> > > jobs, makeup, perfume and the accoutrements of sexual

attraction

> > and SPEND

> > > THEIR MONEY ON SAVING LIVES!

> > >

> > > Most females I know just don't realize that men would be

> attracted

> > to them

> > > if they wore khaki's and combat boots. We don't need to be

sold.

> > Ask any guy

> > > leaving a bar at 2PM and he will tell you the same.

> > >

> > > <%

> 40>

> > [ <%

> 40> ]

> > On

> > > Behalf Of Peter VV

> > > Saturday, July 21, 2007 12:24 PM

> > > <%

> 40>

> > > Re: PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for

> > National Hot

> > > Dog Day

> > >

> > > I seriously doubt if campaigns like this turn people vegan, but

> > probably

> > > would get their attention more than normal people......its

> > appealing to the

> > > base instincts in men isnt it?

> > >

> > > Now if they were vegan as well as models then that would be

> > different, as

> > > they would be able to show that there are vegan models out

there,

> > but I

> > > doubt that they were........

> > >

> > > all I ever find in my salads is insects.............

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan...........

> > >

> > > flower child <zurumato@> wrote:

> > >

> > > that is sexist.

> > >

> > > If they are going to use this approach, I don't understand why

> they

> > > can't use real women. Not cartoon-like ones with plastic on

their

> > > chest. The important question would be however, if campaigns

like

> > this

> > > actually turn people vegan?

> > >

> > > <%

> 40>

> > <%

> > 40> ,

> > > Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I admit it, I am a sexist pig hence the following

> > article/photo......

> > > >

> > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/8206629@N05/847091608

> > > >

> > > > What were two Playboy playmates-wearing nothing but

> > > strategically-placed lettuce leaves-doing earlier today outside

> the

> > > House of Representatives' Rayburn building? Besides handing out

> free

> > > veggie dogs with reps from PETA (People for the Ethical

Treatment

> of

> > > Animals), the self-proclaimed " Lettuce Ladies " were on the Hill

to

> > > counter National Hot Dog Day. Inside Rayburn, the American Meat

> > > Institute celebrated the occasion with assorted Major League

> > baseball

> > > sluggers and congressmen.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Peter H

> > >

> > > <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif>

> > >

> > > _____

> > >

> > > Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Try

> > >

> >

>

<http://uk.answers./;_ylc=X3oDMTEydmViNG02BF9TAzIxMTQ3MTcxOTA

> > Ec2VjA

> > > 21haWwEc2xrA3RhZ2xpbmU> it now.

> > >

> >

Peter H

>

> Answers - Get better answers from someone who knows. Tryit

now.

>

Sign In

RE: /Marcy/PETA and Playboy Playmates Team up for National Hot Dog Day

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Guest guest

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Join the conversation

Support the Ashram

Join Groups

Top Downloads