Interesting question (to me at least)

[Guest guest]

I had the unfortunate, tortured experience of watching a cat of mine torture a baby rabbit while it was still alive. I was tortured emotinally because I wanted to get the poor rabbit away from my cat. But the baby rabbit was already apparently irreparably injured, with it's side skin pulled back to reveal the muscle beneath. (sorry for the graphic descrp)

 

I've since seen other cats treat their kill in similar ways.

 

I believe there's something in this behavior that establishes their dominance over the animal and displays it for others (potential prey and predators) to see.

 

Marcy

p.s. the crime in Vermont is indeed heinous. As humans, with larger brains, we should be extinguishing this sort of behavior in our peers. But with societies at war, how can we make that argument?

 

 

-

ckg

Wednesday, July 25, 2007 9:04 AM

Interesting question (to me at least)

 

 

 

I have been considering a question since yesterday when this horrific event happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a doctor’s house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his daughter. and eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed the family (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and fled the house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS, since her mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger daughter was the one that was raped, I think.

People are calling these two poor excuses for human beings “animals”. That gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I thought, “True, animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to survive.” What I’m thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals over a long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the other animal to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be called “animals”? Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in the past worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this behavior might go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal before actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in Connecticut “animals”?

I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up here to see what you thought.

Cyn

[Guest guest]

Using the term animals to describe these pigs doesnt do justice to theterm, as there are many herbivore animals. Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing with their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with it after it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower lifeform, and IMO dont deserve to live. The Valley Vegan...........ckg <cynthiaandtheothers wrote: I have been considering a question since yesterday when this horrific event happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a doctor’s house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his daughter. and eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed the family (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and fled the house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS, since her mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger daughter was the one that was raped, I think. People are calling these two poor excuses for human beings “animals”. That gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I thought, “True, animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to survive.” What I’m thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals over a long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the other animal to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be called “animals”? Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in the past worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this behavior might go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal before actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in Connecticut “animals”?

I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up here to see what you thought. Cyn Peter H

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free

account today.

[Guest guest]

Peter-

Thanks for the reply. I’m STILL

ruminating over this, but I am being honest when I say that your mention of

herbivore animals also seems to begin bringing me more clarity, somehow. I was

just surprised at myself for leaping into calling these evildoers “animals”,

and wanted to puzzle the whole thing out.

Cyn

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Peter VV

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

1:47 PM

 

Re:

Interesting question (to me at least)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Using the term animals to describe these pigs doesnt do justice to

theterm, as there are many herbivore animals. Sure carniverous animals such as

cats seem to enjoy playing with their intended kill, and in most cases continue

playing with it after it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

lifeform, and IMO dont deserve to live.

 

 

 

 

 

The Valley Vegan...........

 

ckg

<cynthiaandtheothers (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been considering a question

since yesterday when this horrific event happened up in Connecticut.

Two lifelong criminals broke into a doctor’s house and beat his children

and his wife, beat him, raped his daughter. and eventually kept this up

throughout the night before they killed the family (except the doctor is in

critical condition), stole things, and fled the house. The daughter had

been a champion of fund-raising for MS, since her mother had it, and was due to

go to Dartmouth

College.

The younger daughter was the one that was raped, I think.

 

 

People are calling these two poor excuses

for human beings “animals”. That gave me pause because I

wanted to do that at first. Then I thought, “True, animals kill

each other for things that they perceive they need to survive.”

What I’m thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals over a

long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the other animal to

take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be called

“animals”? Then I thought of the housecat. I have

watched my own housecat in the past worrying a small toy mouse to death for

hours. I think this behavior might go on in the wild with the big

cats. If this is true, as far as I understand it would be a similar

enjoyment of killing the animal before actually killing it. Would that

make these two evildoers up in Connecticut

“animals”?

 

 

I honestly do not know the answer to this

and just brought it up here to see what you thought.

 

 

Cyn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peter H

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign

up for your free account today.

[Guest guest]

Peter, now you've compared them to pigs. Aren't humans technically animals? But people should know right from wrong, so whether other animals torture before killing doesn't matter (I understand about your curiosity, though, Cyn) when it comes to people's actions. TracyPeter VV <swpgh01 wrote: Using the term animals to describe these pigs doesnt do justice to theterm, as there are many herbivore animals.

Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing with their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with it after it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower lifeform, and IMO dont deserve to live. The Valley Vegan...........ckg <cynthiaandtheothers (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote: I have been considering a question since yesterday when this horrific event happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a

doctor’s house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his daughter. and eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed the family (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and fled the house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS, since her mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger daughter was the one that was raped, I think. People are calling these two poor excuses for human beings “animals”. That gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I thought, “True, animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to survive.” What I’m thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals over a long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the other animal

to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be called “animals”? Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in the past worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this behavior might go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal before actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in Connecticut “animals”? I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up here to see what you thought. Cyn Peter H Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.

Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Answers - Check it out.

[Guest guest]

" predators " covers human, feline, and other unnatural and natural

behaviors. Perhaps " heinous predators " for the humans.

[Guest guest]

Thanks to everyone. I think I am

beginning to get a handle on this, and I appreciate it. I personally

(maybe not others) would not call these two evildoers “animals”

because in the animal world, a housecat, for example, will not know if worrying

a mouse to death is right or wrong. Only people have that possible ability,

whether they choose to use it or not. Hmmm, I may not be saying that

right. But I do think humans have the ability to choose right or wrong, which

means I would NOT call them animals.

 

There. I got it together in my

mind. Thanks. Cyn

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Tracy H.

Wednesday, July 25, 2007

3:54 PM

 

Re:

Interesting question (to me at least)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peter, now you've compared them to pigs.

 

 

 

 

 

Aren't humans technically animals?

 

 

 

 

 

But people should know right from wrong, so whether other animals

torture before killing doesn't matter (I understand about your curiosity,

though, Cyn) when it comes to people's actions.

 

 

 

 

 

Tracy

 

Peter VV

<swpgh01 (AT) talk21 (DOT) com> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

Using the term animals to describe these pigs doesnt do justice to

theterm, as there are many herbivore animals. Sure carniverous animals such as

cats seem to enjoy playing with their intended kill, and in most cases continue

playing with it after it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

lifeform, and IMO dont deserve to live.

 

 

 

 

 

The Valley Vegan...........

 

ckg

<cynthiaandtheothers (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I have been considering a question

since yesterday when this horrific event happened up in Connecticut.

Two lifelong criminals broke into a doctor’s house and beat his children

and his wife, beat him, raped his daughter. and eventually kept this up

throughout the night before they killed the family (except the doctor is in

critical condition), stole things, and fled the house. The daughter had

been a champion of fund-raising for MS, since her mother had it, and was due to

go to Dartmouth

College.

The younger daughter was the one that was raped, I think.

 

 

People are calling these two poor excuses

for human beings “animals”. That gave me pause because I

wanted to do that at first. Then I thought, “True, animals kill

each other for things that they perceive they need to survive.”

What I’m thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals over a

long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the other animal to

take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be called

“animals”? Then I thought of the housecat. I have

watched my own housecat in the past worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours.

I think this behavior might go on in the wild with the big cats. If this

is true, as far as I understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the

animal before actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up

in Connecticut

“animals”?

 

 

I honestly do not know the answer to this

and just brought it up here to see what you thought.

 

 

Cyn

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Peter H

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign

up for your free account today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Be a better Globetrotter. Get

better travel answers from someone who knows.

Answers - Check it out.

[Guest guest]

The first animal that came to my mind was the cat. They torment and

torture other animals for fun. I have seen a television programme

where apes were tormenting caterpillars, and presumably hurting them

as well.

 

Jo

 

, " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers

wrote:

>

>

>

> I have been considering a question since yesterday when this

horrific event

> happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a

doctor's

> house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his

daughter. and

> eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed the

family

> (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and

fled the

> house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS,

since her

> mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger

daughter

> was the one that was raped, I think.

>

> People are calling these two poor excuses for human

beings " animals " . That

> gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

thought, " True,

> animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to

survive. "

> What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals

over a

> long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the

other animal

> to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

called " animals " ?

> Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in

the past

> worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

behavior might

> go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I

> understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal

before

> actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in

Connecticut

> " animals " ?

>

> I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up

here to see

> what you thought.

>

> Cyn

>

[Guest guest]

Hi

 

I do think animals know the difference between what is acceptable and

what is not if they are reprimanded.

 

Jo

 

 

, " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers

wrote:

>

> Thanks to everyone. I think I am beginning to get a handle on

this, and I

> appreciate it. I personally (maybe not others) would not call

these two

> evildoers " animals " because in the animal world, a housecat, for

example,

> will not know if worrying a mouse to death is right or wrong. Only

people

> have that possible ability, whether they choose to use it or not.

Hmmm, I

> may not be saying that right. But I do think humans have the

ability to

> choose right or wrong, which means I would NOT call them animals.

>

>

>

> There. I got it together in my mind. Thanks. Cyn

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

On

> Behalf Of Tracy H.

> Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:54 PM

>

> Re: Interesting question (to me at least)

>

>

>

> Peter, now you've compared them to pigs.

>

>

>

> Aren't humans technically animals?

>

>

>

> But people should know right from wrong, so whether other animals

torture

> before killing doesn't matter (I understand about your curiosity,

though,

> Cyn) when it comes to people's actions.

>

>

>

> Tracy

>

> Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> Using the term animals to describe these pigs doesnt do justice to

theterm,

> as there are many herbivore animals. Sure carniverous animals such

as cats

> seem to enjoy playing with their intended kill, and in most cases

continue

> playing with it after it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen

are a lower

> lifeform, and IMO dont deserve to live.

>

>

>

> The Valley Vegan...........

>

> ckg <cynthiaandtheothers wrote:

>

>

>

> I have been considering a question since yesterday when this

horrific event

> happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a

doctor's

> house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his

daughter. and

> eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed the

family

> (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and

fled the

> house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS,

since her

> mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger

daughter

> was the one that was raped, I think.

>

> People are calling these two poor excuses for human

beings " animals " . That

> gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

thought, " True,

> animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to

survive. "

> What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals

over a

> long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the

other animal

> to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

called " animals " ?

> Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in

the past

> worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

behavior might

> go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I

> understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal

before

> actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in

Connecticut

> " animals " ?

>

> I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up

here to see

> what you thought.

>

> Cyn

>

>

>

>

>

> Peter H

>

> <http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/tsmileys2/47.gif>

>

>

> _____

>

>

> Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,

sign

>

<http://uk.rd./evt=44106/*http:/uk.docs./mail/winter

07.htm

> l> up for your free account today.

>

>

>

>

>

> _____

>

> Be a better Globetrotter. Get

>

<http://us.rd./evt=48254/*http:/answers./dir/_ylc=X3

oDMTI5

>

MGx2aThyBF9TAzIxMTU1MDAzNTIEX3MDMzk2NTQ1MTAzBHNlYwNCQUJwaWxsYXJfTklfMz

YwBHNs

> awNQcm9kdWN0X3F1ZXN0aW9uX3BhZ2U-?link=list & sid=396545469> better

travel

> answers from someone who knows.

> Answers - Check it out.

>

[Guest guest]

I'm interested in where my mind goes in response to two recent

comments made regarding the " humans called animals " debate.

 

The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

 

" Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing with

their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with it after

it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower lifeform, and

IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

 

I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any living

thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals who commit

heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything on this

earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human animals rank

higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

 

Also, this, from Jo:

 

" I do think animals know the difference between what is acceptable and

what is not if they are reprimanded. "

 

First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal world different

from in the human world? For instance, I have many times observed my

cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and then praised

my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet and waits

for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being batted

around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat. It's what

cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

 

I recently have been debating in my head the subject of reprimanding,

or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will over theirs

when we reprimand them for something that comes natually to them, but

is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog basic

obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety of others,

while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed soley for our

amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat when he

is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally to him.

 

Any other thoughts out there?

 

Jolene

 

 

 

 

, " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers

wrote:

>

>

>

> I have been considering a question since yesterday when this

horrific event

> happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a

doctor's

> house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his

daughter. and

> eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed the

family

> (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and

fled the

> house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS,

since her

> mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger

daughter

> was the one that was raped, I think.

>

> People are calling these two poor excuses for human

beings " animals " . That

> gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

thought, " True,

> animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to

survive. "

> What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals

over a

> long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the

other animal

> to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

called " animals " ?

> Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in

the past

> worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

behavior might

> go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I

> understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal

before

> actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in

Connecticut

> " animals " ?

>

> I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up

here to see

> what you thought.

>

> Cyn

>

[Guest guest]

I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any compasion, as they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in mind what they did. Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able to think before they act, those two presumably thought it over before deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less than animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their rape and murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh sure they could be locked up ( again ), and "counselled", but the fact that they have committed crimes like this before shows that they are unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with them? they are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again, so again why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to society, and live outside society. The Valley Vegan................jmaine37 <zuzu37 wrote: I'm interested in where my mind goes in response to two recent comments made regarding the "humans called animals" debate.The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:"Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing with their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with it after it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower lifeform, and IMO dont deserve to live." - Peter VVI'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any living thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human

animals who commit heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything on this earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human animals rank higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?Also, this, from Jo:"I do think animals know the difference between what is acceptable andwhat is not if they are reprimanded."First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal world different from in the human world? For instance, I have many times observed my cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and then praised my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet and waits for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being batted around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat. It's what cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job. I recently have been debating in my head the subject of reprimanding, or training companion animals. Are we exerting our

will over theirs when we reprimand them for something that comes natually to them, but is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog basic obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety of others, while I disagree with teaching a dog "tricks" performed soley for our amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat when he is "playing" with a mouse, since it only comes naturally to him.Any other thoughts out there?Jolene , "ckg" <cynthiaandtheothers wrote:>> > > I have been considering a question since yesterday when this horrific event> happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a doctor's> house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his daughter. and> eventually kept this up throughout the night

before they killed the family> (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and fled the> house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS, since her> mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The younger daughter> was the one that was raped, I think.> > People are calling these two poor excuses for human beings "animals". That> gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I thought, "True,> animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need to survive."> What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other animals over a> long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the other animal> to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be called "animals"?> Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat in the past> worrying a small toy

mouse to death for hours. I think this behavior might> go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I> understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal before> actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in Connecticut> "animals"?> > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up here to see> what you thought.> > Cyn>Peter H

 

Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free

account today.

[Guest guest]

I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I can't help but

have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing their actions,

but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make them believe

that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill people. I do

believe that every person is born good. I believe that, at their

base, every person strives for good throughout their lives. We all

make decisions based on the information we receive from the world

around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's concept that

knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do good. That

every human makes the best choice available to them, and that no

human ever chooses to do evil.

 

Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all living

creatures are connected by a universal life force, and it's

difficult to wish death upon anyone.

 

Jolene

 

 

 

, Peter VV <swpgh01 wrote:

>

> I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any compasion, as

they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in mind what

they did.

> Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able to think

before they act, those two presumably thought it over before

deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less than

animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their rape and

murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh sure they

could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the fact that

they have committed crimes like this before shows that they are

unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with them? they

are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again, so again

why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to society, and

live outside society.

>

> The Valley Vegan................

>

> jmaine37 <zuzu37 wrote:

> I'm interested in where my mind goes in response to two

recent

> comments made regarding the " humans called animals " debate.

>

> The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

>

> " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing with

> their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with it

after

> it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower lifeform,

and

> IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

>

> I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any living

> thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals who commit

> heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything on this

> earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human animals rank

> higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

>

> Also, this, from Jo:

>

> " I do think animals know the difference between what is acceptable

and

> what is not if they are reprimanded. "

>

> First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal world

different

> from in the human world? For instance, I have many times observed

my

> cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and then

praised

> my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet and

waits

> for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being batted

> around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat. It's

what

> cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

>

> I recently have been debating in my head the subject of

reprimanding,

> or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will over

theirs

> when we reprimand them for something that comes natually to them,

but

> is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog basic

> obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety of

others,

> while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed soley for

our

> amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat when he

> is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally to him.

>

> Any other thoughts out there?

>

> Jolene

>

> , " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> wrote:

> >

> >

> >

> > I have been considering a question since yesterday when this

> horrific event

> > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a

> doctor's

> > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his

> daughter. and

> > eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed

the

> family

> > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and

> fled the

> > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS,

> since her

> > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The

younger

> daughter

> > was the one that was raped, I think.

> >

> > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> beings " animals " . That

> > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

> thought, " True,

> > animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need

to

> survive. "

> > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other

animals

> over a

> > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the

> other animal

> > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

> called " animals " ?

> > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat

in

> the past

> > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

> behavior might

> > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as I

> > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the animal

> before

> > actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in

> Connecticut

> > " animals " ?

> >

> > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it up

> here to see

> > what you thought.

> >

> > Cyn

> >

Peter H

>

>

>

>

> Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

>

[Guest guest]

The question I would ask is if you would have compassion for them if

they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister friend.

 

I wouldn't.

 

Jo

 

, " jmaine37 " <zuzu37 wrote:

>

> I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I can't help but

> have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing their actions,

> but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make them

believe

> that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill people. I do

> believe that every person is born good. I believe that, at their

> base, every person strives for good throughout their lives. We all

> make decisions based on the information we receive from the world

> around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's concept that

> knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do good. That

> every human makes the best choice available to them, and that no

> human ever chooses to do evil.

>

> Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all living

> creatures are connected by a universal life force, and it's

> difficult to wish death upon anyone.

>

> Jolene

>

>

>

> , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> >

> > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any compasion, as

> they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in mind what

> they did.

> > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able to

think

> before they act, those two presumably thought it over before

> deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less than

> animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their rape and

> murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh sure they

> could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the fact that

> they have committed crimes like this before shows that they are

> unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with them? they

> are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again, so

again

> why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to society,

and

> live outside society.

> >

> > The Valley Vegan................

> >

> > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > I'm interested in where my mind goes in response to two

> recent

> > comments made regarding the " humans called animals " debate.

> >

> > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> >

> > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing with

> > their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with it

> after

> > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower lifeform,

> and

> > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> >

> > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any living

> > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals who

commit

> > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything on this

> > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human animals rank

> > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> >

> > Also, this, from Jo:

> >

> > " I do think animals know the difference between what is

acceptable

> and

> > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> >

> > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal world

> different

> > from in the human world? For instance, I have many times observed

> my

> > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and then

> praised

> > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet and

> waits

> > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being batted

> > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat. It's

> what

> > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> >

> > I recently have been debating in my head the subject of

> reprimanding,

> > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will over

> theirs

> > when we reprimand them for something that comes natually to them,

> but

> > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog basic

> > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety of

> others,

> > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed soley for

> our

> > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat when he

> > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally to him.

> >

> > Any other thoughts out there?

> >

> > Jolene

> >

> > , " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > I have been considering a question since yesterday when this

> > horrific event

> > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke into a

> > doctor's

> > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped his

> > daughter. and

> > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before they killed

> the

> > family

> > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things, and

> > fled the

> > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for MS,

> > since her

> > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The

> younger

> > daughter

> > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > >

> > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > beings " animals " . That

> > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

> > thought, " True,

> > > animals kill each other for things that they perceive they need

> to

> > survive. "

> > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other

> animals

> > over a

> > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing the

> > other animal

> > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

> > called " animals " ?

> > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own housecat

> in

> > the past

> > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

> > behavior might

> > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far as

I

> > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the

animal

> > before

> > > actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up in

> > Connecticut

> > > " animals " ?

> > >

> > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought it

up

> > here to see

> > > what you thought.

> > >

> > > Cyn

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Peter H

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger for the

rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have compassion for

them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction of anger,

hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think that, in

time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion for the

attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled person, and

those attackers would have harmed me too, without even knowing. I

know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had a chance

to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large enough view

to accomodate compassion.

 

Jolene

 

 

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

wrote:

>

> The question I would ask is if you would have compassion for them

if

> they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister friend.

>

> I wouldn't.

>

> Jo

>

> , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> >

> > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I can't help

but

> > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing their

actions,

> > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make them

> believe

> > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill people. I do

> > believe that every person is born good. I believe that, at their

> > base, every person strives for good throughout their lives. We

all

> > make decisions based on the information we receive from the

world

> > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's concept that

> > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do good.

That

> > every human makes the best choice available to them, and that no

> > human ever chooses to do evil.

> >

> > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all living

> > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and it's

> > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> >

> > Jolene

> >

> >

> >

> > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any compasion,

as

> > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in mind

what

> > they did.

> > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able to

> think

> > before they act, those two presumably thought it over before

> > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less than

> > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their rape

and

> > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh sure

they

> > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the fact

that

> > they have committed crimes like this before shows that they are

> > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with them?

they

> > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again, so

> again

> > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to society,

> and

> > live outside society.

> > >

> > > The Valley Vegan................

> > >

> > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in response to

two

> > recent

> > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals " debate.

> > >

> > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > >

> > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing

with

> > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with

it

> > after

> > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

lifeform,

> > and

> > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > >

> > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any

living

> > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals who

> commit

> > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything on

this

> > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human animals

rank

> > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > >

> > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > >

> > > " I do think animals know the difference between what is

> acceptable

> > and

> > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > >

> > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal world

> > different

> > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many times

observed

> > my

> > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and then

> > praised

> > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet and

> > waits

> > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being

batted

> > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat.

It's

> > what

> > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > >

> > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject of

> > reprimanding,

> > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will over

> > theirs

> > > when we reprimand them for something that comes natually to

them,

> > but

> > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog

basic

> > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety of

> > others,

> > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed soley

for

> > our

> > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat when

he

> > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally to

him.

> > >

> > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > >

> > > Jolene

> > >

> > > , " ckg "

<cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday when this

> > > horrific event

> > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke

into a

> > > doctor's

> > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped

his

> > > daughter. and

> > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before they

killed

> > the

> > > family

> > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things,

and

> > > fled the

> > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for

MS,

> > > since her

> > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The

> > younger

> > > daughter

> > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > >

> > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

> > > thought, " True,

> > > > animals kill each other for things that they perceive they

need

> > to

> > > survive. "

> > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other

> > animals

> > > over a

> > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing

the

> > > other animal

> > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

> > > called " animals " ?

> > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own

housecat

> > in

> > > the past

> > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

> > > behavior might

> > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as far

as

> I

> > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the

> animal

> > > before

> > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up

in

> > > Connecticut

> > > > " animals " ?

> > > >

> > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought

it

> up

> > > here to see

> > > > what you thought.

> > > >

> > > > Cyn

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Peter H

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person just

because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

 

Jo

 

, " jmaine37 " <zuzu37 wrote:

>

> Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger for the

> rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have compassion for

> them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction of anger,

> hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think that, in

> time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion for the

> attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled person, and

> those attackers would have harmed me too, without even knowing. I

> know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had a chance

> to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large enough view

> to accomodate compassion.

>

> Jolene

>

>

> , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> wrote:

> >

> > The question I would ask is if you would have compassion for them

> if

> > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister friend.

> >

> > I wouldn't.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I can't help

> but

> > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing their

> actions,

> > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make them

> > believe

> > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill people. I do

> > > believe that every person is born good. I believe that, at

their

> > > base, every person strives for good throughout their lives. We

> all

> > > make decisions based on the information we receive from the

> world

> > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's concept that

> > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do good.

> That

> > > every human makes the best choice available to them, and that

no

> > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > >

> > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all living

> > > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and it's

> > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > >

> > > Jolene

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any

compasion,

> as

> > > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in mind

> what

> > > they did.

> > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able to

> > think

> > > before they act, those two presumably thought it over before

> > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less than

> > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their rape

> and

> > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh sure

> they

> > > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the fact

> that

> > > they have committed crimes like this before shows that they are

> > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with them?

> they

> > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again, so

> > again

> > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to

society,

> > and

> > > live outside society.

> > > >

> > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > >

> > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in response to

> two

> > > recent

> > > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals " debate.

> > > >

> > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > > >

> > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy playing

> with

> > > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing with

> it

> > > after

> > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

> lifeform,

> > > and

> > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > >

> > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any

> living

> > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals who

> > commit

> > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything on

> this

> > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human animals

> rank

> > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > > >

> > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > >

> > > > " I do think animals know the difference between what is

> > acceptable

> > > and

> > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > >

> > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal world

> > > different

> > > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many times

> observed

> > > my

> > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and then

> > > praised

> > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet and

> > > waits

> > > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being

> batted

> > > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat.

> It's

> > > what

> > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > > >

> > > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject of

> > > reprimanding,

> > > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will over

> > > theirs

> > > > when we reprimand them for something that comes natually to

> them,

> > > but

> > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog

> basic

> > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety of

> > > others,

> > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed soley

> for

> > > our

> > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat when

> he

> > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally to

> him.

> > > >

> > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > >

> > > > Jolene

> > > >

> > > > , " ckg "

> <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday when

this

> > > > horrific event

> > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke

> into a

> > > > doctor's

> > > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him, raped

> his

> > > > daughter. and

> > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before they

> killed

> > > the

> > > > family

> > > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole things,

> and

> > > > fled the

> > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising for

> MS,

> > > > since her

> > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College. The

> > > younger

> > > > daughter

> > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > >

> > > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then I

> > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > animals kill each other for things that they perceive they

> need

> > > to

> > > > survive. "

> > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture other

> > > animals

> > > > over a

> > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before killing

> the

> > > > other animal

> > > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men be

> > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own

> housecat

> > > in

> > > > the past

> > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think this

> > > > behavior might

> > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as

far

> as

> > I

> > > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing the

> > animal

> > > > before

> > > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers up

> in

> > > > Connecticut

> > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > >

> > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just brought

> it

> > up

> > > > here to see

> > > > > what you thought.

> > > > >

> > > > > Cyn

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Peter H

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for

> > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Yes, but why waste that energy holding grudges when you could use it

in so many more positive ways? And why grant the person who wronged

you that kind of control over your energy and emotions?

 

 

 

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

wrote:

>

> I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person just

> because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

> forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

>

> Jo

>

> , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> >

> > Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger for the

> > rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have compassion

for

> > them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction of

anger,

> > hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think that,

in

> > time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion for

the

> > attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled person, and

> > those attackers would have harmed me too, without even knowing.

I

> > know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had a

chance

> > to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large enough

view

> > to accomodate compassion.

> >

> > Jolene

> >

> >

> > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > The question I would ask is if you would have compassion for

them

> > if

> > > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister friend.

> > >

> > > I wouldn't.

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I can't

help

> > but

> > > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing their

> > actions,

> > > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make them

> > > believe

> > > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill people. I

do

> > > > believe that every person is born good. I believe that, at

> their

> > > > base, every person strives for good throughout their lives.

We

> > all

> > > > make decisions based on the information we receive from the

> > world

> > > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's concept

that

> > > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do good.

> > That

> > > > every human makes the best choice available to them, and

that

> no

> > > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > > >

> > > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all

living

> > > > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and it's

> > > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > > >

> > > > Jolene

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any

> compasion,

> > as

> > > > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in mind

> > what

> > > > they did.

> > > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able

to

> > > think

> > > > before they act, those two presumably thought it over before

> > > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less

than

> > > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their

rape

> > and

> > > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh

sure

> > they

> > > > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the fact

> > that

> > > > they have committed crimes like this before shows that they

are

> > > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with them?

> > they

> > > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again,

so

> > > again

> > > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to

> society,

> > > and

> > > > live outside society.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > > >

> > > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in response

to

> > two

> > > > recent

> > > > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals " debate.

> > > > >

> > > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > > > >

> > > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy

playing

> > with

> > > > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing

with

> > it

> > > > after

> > > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

> > lifeform,

> > > > and

> > > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem any

> > living

> > > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals

who

> > > commit

> > > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything

on

> > this

> > > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human

animals

> > rank

> > > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > > >

> > > > > " I do think animals know the difference between what is

> > > acceptable

> > > > and

> > > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > > >

> > > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal

world

> > > > different

> > > > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many times

> > observed

> > > > my

> > > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and

then

> > > > praised

> > > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet

and

> > > > waits

> > > > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being

> > batted

> > > > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my cat.

> > It's

> > > > what

> > > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > > > >

> > > > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject of

> > > > reprimanding,

> > > > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will

over

> > > > theirs

> > > > > when we reprimand them for something that comes natually

to

> > them,

> > > > but

> > > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog

> > basic

> > > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the safety

of

> > > > others,

> > > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed

soley

> > for

> > > > our

> > > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat

when

> > he

> > > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally

to

> > him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > > >

> > > > > Jolene

> > > > >

> > > > > , " ckg "

> > <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday when

> this

> > > > > horrific event

> > > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals broke

> > into a

> > > > > doctor's

> > > > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him,

raped

> > his

> > > > > daughter. and

> > > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before they

> > killed

> > > > the

> > > > > family

> > > > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole

things,

> > and

> > > > > fled the

> > > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising

for

> > MS,

> > > > > since her

> > > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College.

The

> > > > younger

> > > > > daughter

> > > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first. Then

I

> > > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > > animals kill each other for things that they perceive

they

> > need

> > > > to

> > > > > survive. "

> > > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture

other

> > > > animals

> > > > > over a

> > > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before

killing

> > the

> > > > > other animal

> > > > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men

be

> > > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own

> > housecat

> > > > in

> > > > > the past

> > > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think

this

> > > > > behavior might

> > > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true, as

> far

> > as

> > > I

> > > > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing

the

> > > animal

> > > > > before

> > > > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two evildoers

up

> > in

> > > > > Connecticut

> > > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just

brought

> > it

> > > up

> > > > > here to see

> > > > > > what you thought.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Cyn

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Peter H

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle

for

> > > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

You would only waste your energy if you had it in your mind a lot of

the time. You cannot mean to tell me that you would be able to

completely forget about one of your loved ones being brutally

abused! And if you cannot forget it you might spend just as much

energy on 'forgiving' someone than on not forgiving them.

 

Jo

 

, " jmaine37 " <zuzu37 wrote:

>

> Yes, but why waste that energy holding grudges when you could use

it

> in so many more positive ways? And why grant the person who wronged

> you that kind of control over your energy and emotions?

>

>

>

> , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> wrote:

> >

> > I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person just

> > because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

> > forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger for

the

> > > rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have compassion

> for

> > > them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction of

> anger,

> > > hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think that,

> in

> > > time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion for

> the

> > > attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled person,

and

> > > those attackers would have harmed me too, without even knowing.

> I

> > > know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had a

> chance

> > > to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large enough

> view

> > > to accomodate compassion.

> > >

> > > Jolene

> > >

> > >

> > > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > The question I would ask is if you would have compassion for

> them

> > > if

> > > > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister

friend.

> > > >

> > > > I wouldn't.

> > > >

> > > > Jo

> > > >

> > > > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I can't

> help

> > > but

> > > > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing their

> > > actions,

> > > > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make

them

> > > > believe

> > > > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill people. I

> do

> > > > > believe that every person is born good. I believe that, at

> > their

> > > > > base, every person strives for good throughout their lives.

> We

> > > all

> > > > > make decisions based on the information we receive from the

> > > world

> > > > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's concept

> that

> > > > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do

good.

> > > That

> > > > > every human makes the best choice available to them, and

> that

> > no

> > > > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > > > >

> > > > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all

> living

> > > > > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and it's

> > > > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jolene

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@>

wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any

> > compasion,

> > > as

> > > > > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in

mind

> > > what

> > > > > they did.

> > > > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be able

> to

> > > > think

> > > > > before they act, those two presumably thought it over

before

> > > > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them less

> than

> > > > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their

> rape

> > > and

> > > > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live. Oh

> sure

> > > they

> > > > > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the

fact

> > > that

> > > > > they have committed crimes like this before shows that they

> are

> > > > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with

them?

> > > they

> > > > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing again,

> so

> > > > again

> > > > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to

> > society,

> > > > and

> > > > > live outside society.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > > > >

> > > > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in

response

> to

> > > two

> > > > > recent

> > > > > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals "

debate.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy

> playing

> > > with

> > > > > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue playing

> with

> > > it

> > > > > after

> > > > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

> > > lifeform,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem

any

> > > living

> > > > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human animals

> who

> > > > commit

> > > > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly anything

> on

> > > this

> > > > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human

> animals

> > > rank

> > > > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I do think animals know the difference between what is

> > > > acceptable

> > > > > and

> > > > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal

> world

> > > > > different

> > > > > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many times

> > > observed

> > > > > my

> > > > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them, and

> then

> > > > > praised

> > > > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my feet

> and

> > > > > waits

> > > > > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing being

> > > batted

> > > > > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my

cat.

> > > It's

> > > > > what

> > > > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject of

> > > > > reprimanding,

> > > > > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our will

> over

> > > > > theirs

> > > > > > when we reprimand them for something that comes natually

> to

> > > them,

> > > > > but

> > > > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a dog

> > > basic

> > > > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the

safety

> of

> > > > > others,

> > > > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks " performed

> soley

> > > for

> > > > > our

> > > > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my cat

> when

> > > he

> > > > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes naturally

> to

> > > him.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " ckg "

> > > <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday when

> > this

> > > > > > horrific event

> > > > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals

broke

> > > into a

> > > > > > doctor's

> > > > > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him,

> raped

> > > his

> > > > > > daughter. and

> > > > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before

they

> > > killed

> > > > > the

> > > > > > family

> > > > > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole

> things,

> > > and

> > > > > > fled the

> > > > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-raising

> for

> > > MS,

> > > > > > since her

> > > > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth College.

> The

> > > > > younger

> > > > > > daughter

> > > > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first.

Then

> I

> > > > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > > > animals kill each other for things that they perceive

> they

> > > need

> > > > > to

> > > > > > survive. "

> > > > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture

> other

> > > > > animals

> > > > > > over a

> > > > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before

> killing

> > > the

> > > > > > other animal

> > > > > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two men

> be

> > > > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my own

> > > housecat

> > > > > in

> > > > > > the past

> > > > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I think

> this

> > > > > > behavior might

> > > > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is true,

as

> > far

> > > as

> > > > I

> > > > > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of killing

> the

> > > > animal

> > > > > > before

> > > > > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two

evildoers

> up

> > > in

> > > > > > Connecticut

> > > > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just

> brought

> > > it

> > > > up

> > > > > > here to see

> > > > > > > what you thought.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Cyn

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Peter H

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle

> for

> > > > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Forgetting and forgiving are two completely different things, you

seem to have confused the two. I obviously would not forget what

happened to my loved ones, but I would live each day as it was

presented to me and keep them in my heart. As time went on, I think

I would feel more sadness for the attackers and confusion over what

caused them to commit such heinous crimes.

 

This is largely a mental exercise, though, and I'm finding it

increasingly difficult to imagine how I would feel if such a

horrible thing were to happen. Suffice it to say that I would hope I

was big enough to forgive, and yes, not waste energy dwelling on

those who wronged me or my family.

 

Jolene

 

 

 

 

 

, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

wrote:

>

> You would only waste your energy if you had it in your mind a lot

of

> the time. You cannot mean to tell me that you would be able to

> completely forget about one of your loved ones being brutally

> abused! And if you cannot forget it you might spend just as much

> energy on 'forgiving' someone than on not forgiving them.

>

> Jo

>

> , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> >

> > Yes, but why waste that energy holding grudges when you could

use

> it

> > in so many more positive ways? And why grant the person who

wronged

> > you that kind of control over your energy and emotions?

> >

> >

> >

> > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person

just

> > > because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

> > > forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger for

> the

> > > > rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have

compassion

> > for

> > > > them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction of

> > anger,

> > > > hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think

that,

> > in

> > > > time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion

for

> > the

> > > > attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled person,

> and

> > > > those attackers would have harmed me too, without even

knowing.

> > I

> > > > know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had a

> > chance

> > > > to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large

enough

> > view

> > > > to accomodate compassion.

> > > >

> > > > Jolene

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " heartwerk "

<jo.heartwork@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > The question I would ask is if you would have compassion

for

> > them

> > > > if

> > > > > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister

> friend.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jo

> > > > >

> > > > > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@>

wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I

can't

> > help

> > > > but

> > > > > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing

their

> > > > actions,

> > > > > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make

> them

> > > > > believe

> > > > > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill

people. I

> > do

> > > > > > believe that every person is born good. I believe that,

at

> > > their

> > > > > > base, every person strives for good throughout their

lives.

> > We

> > > > all

> > > > > > make decisions based on the information we receive from

the

> > > > world

> > > > > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's

concept

> > that

> > > > > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do

> good.

> > > > That

> > > > > > every human makes the best choice available to them, and

> > that

> > > no

> > > > > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all

> > living

> > > > > > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and

it's

> > > > > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@>

> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any

> > > compasion,

> > > > as

> > > > > > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in

> mind

> > > > what

> > > > > > they did.

> > > > > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be

able

> > to

> > > > > think

> > > > > > before they act, those two presumably thought it over

> before

> > > > > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them

less

> > than

> > > > > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their

> > rape

> > > > and

> > > > > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live.

Oh

> > sure

> > > > they

> > > > > > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the

> fact

> > > > that

> > > > > > they have committed crimes like this before shows that

they

> > are

> > > > > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with

> them?

> > > > they

> > > > > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing

again,

> > so

> > > > > again

> > > > > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to

> > > society,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > live outside society.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in

> response

> > to

> > > > two

> > > > > > recent

> > > > > > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals "

> debate.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy

> > playing

> > > > with

> > > > > > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue

playing

> > with

> > > > it

> > > > > > after

> > > > > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

> > > > lifeform,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem

> any

> > > > living

> > > > > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human

animals

> > who

> > > > > commit

> > > > > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly

anything

> > on

> > > > this

> > > > > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human

> > animals

> > > > rank

> > > > > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " I do think animals know the difference between what

is

> > > > > acceptable

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal

> > world

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many

times

> > > > observed

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them,

and

> > then

> > > > > > praised

> > > > > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my

feet

> > and

> > > > > > waits

> > > > > > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing

being

> > > > batted

> > > > > > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my

> cat.

> > > > It's

> > > > > > what

> > > > > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject

of

> > > > > > reprimanding,

> > > > > > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our

will

> > over

> > > > > > theirs

> > > > > > > when we reprimand them for something that comes

natually

> > to

> > > > them,

> > > > > > but

> > > > > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a

dog

> > > > basic

> > > > > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the

> safety

> > of

> > > > > > others,

> > > > > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks "

performed

> > soley

> > > > for

> > > > > > our

> > > > > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my

cat

> > when

> > > > he

> > > > > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes

naturally

> > to

> > > > him.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , " ckg "

> > > > <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday

when

> > > this

> > > > > > > horrific event

> > > > > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals

> broke

> > > > into a

> > > > > > > doctor's

> > > > > > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him,

> > raped

> > > > his

> > > > > > > daughter. and

> > > > > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before

> they

> > > > killed

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole

> > things,

> > > > and

> > > > > > > fled the

> > > > > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-

raising

> > for

> > > > MS,

> > > > > > > since her

> > > > > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth

College.

> > The

> > > > > > younger

> > > > > > > daughter

> > > > > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > > > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first.

> Then

> > I

> > > > > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > > > > animals kill each other for things that they

perceive

> > they

> > > > need

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > survive. "

> > > > > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture

> > other

> > > > > > animals

> > > > > > > over a

> > > > > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before

> > killing

> > > > the

> > > > > > > other animal

> > > > > > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two

men

> > be

> > > > > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my

own

> > > > housecat

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > the past

> > > > > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I

think

> > this

> > > > > > > behavior might

> > > > > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is

true,

> as

> > > far

> > > > as

> > > > > I

> > > > > > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of

killing

> > the

> > > > > animal

> > > > > > > before

> > > > > > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two

> evildoers

> > up

> > > > in

> > > > > > > Connecticut

> > > > > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just

> > brought

> > > > it

> > > > > up

> > > > > > > here to see

> > > > > > > > what you thought.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cyn

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Peter H

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't

settle

> > for

> > > > > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Jolene-

I recognized a lot of myself in what you

said, especially the part about confusion. In 1999, some very evil men at

the place where I was working set out to destroy me since I had brought a

Teachers’ Union to the school where I

was working. There had never been one there before, and these evil men,

in charge of the school, used an illness I had to not only fire me but destroy

me and my reputation. People I have known have been appalled at how I

survived it.

 

To this day I hate these men. If

someone were to tell me that any or all of them had died painful deaths, I am

not sure if I would be happy, but I would be relieved that they were

dead. Then, I realized that this relief would come from me being released

from the hate I carry for them day after day. True, they are certainly

evil men, and I know that every day that I continue to hate them is a day that

they continue to destroy me, but I cannot yet give up the hate. I wish I

could. They no longer care about me. I wish I could no longer care about

them.

 

I am sorry to go on. It is just that

this conversation struck a real chord with me, even to the point that I am a

little teary right now. I guess I have realized that a part of being

Vegan is to be able to work out some peace for oneself with this world.

Thanks for the thoughts you expressed.

 

Cyn

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of jmaine37

Monday, July 30, 2007 6:20

AM

 

Re:

Interesting question (to me at least)

 

 

 

 

 

Forgetting and forgiving are two completely different

things, you

seem to have confused the two. I obviously would not forget what

happened to my loved ones, but I would live each day as it was

presented to me and keep them in my heart. As time went on, I think

I would feel more sadness for the attackers and confusion over what

caused them to commit such heinous crimes.

 

This is largely a mental exercise, though, and I'm finding it

increasingly difficult to imagine how I would feel if such a

horrible thing were to happen. Suffice it to say that I would hope I

was big enough to forgive, and yes, not waste energy dwelling on

those who wronged me or my family.

 

Jolene

 

,

" heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

wrote:

>

> You would only waste your energy if you had it in your mind a lot

of

> the time. You cannot mean to tell me that you would be able to

> completely forget about one of your loved ones being brutally

> abused! And if you cannot forget it you might spend just as much

> energy on 'forgiving' someone than on not forgiving them.

>

> Jo

>

> ,

" jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> >

> > Yes, but why waste that energy holding grudges when you could

use

> it

> > in so many more positive ways? And why grant the person who

wronged

> > you that kind of control over your energy and emotions?

> >

> >

> >

> > ,

" heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person

just

> > > because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

> > > forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

> > >

> > > Jo

> > >

> > > ,

" jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger

for

> the

> > > > rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have

compassion

> > for

> > > > them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction

of

> > anger,

> > > > hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think

that,

> > in

> > > > time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion

 

for

> > the

> > > > attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled

person,

> and

> > > > those attackers would have harmed me too, without even

knowing.

> > I

> > > > know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had

a

> > chance

> > > > to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large

enough

> > view

> > > > to accomodate compassion.

> > > >

> > > > Jolene

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ,

" heartwerk "

<jo.heartwork@>

> > > > wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > The question I would ask is if you would have

compassion

for

> > them

> > > > if

> > > > > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister

 

> friend.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wouldn't.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jo

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

" jmaine37 " <zuzu37@>

wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned,

I

can't

> > help

> > > > but

> > > > > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not

excusing

their

> > > > actions,

> > > > > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired

to make

> them

> > > > > believe

> > > > > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill

 

people. I

> > do

> > > > > > believe that every person is born good. I believe

that,

at

> > > their

> > > > > > base, every person strives for good throughout

their

lives.

> > We

> > > > all

> > > > > > make decisions based on the information we

receive from

the

> > > > world

> > > > > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's

 

concept

> > that

> > > > > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good,

we do

> good.

> > > > That

> > > > > > every human makes the best choice available to

them, and

> > that

> > > no

> > > > > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One,

that all

> > living

> > > > > > creatures are connected by a universal life

force, and

it's

> > > > > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ,

Peter VV <swpgh01@>

> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy

of any

> > > compasion,

> > > > as

> > > > > > they themselves seem incapable of giving

any,bearing in

> mind

> > > > what

> > > > > > they did.

> > > > > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed

to be

able

> > to

> > > > > think

> > > > > > before they act, those two presumably thought it

over

> before

> > > > > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes

them

less

> > than

> > > > > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously

enjoyed their

> > rape

> > > > and

> > > > > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to

live.

Oh

> > sure

> > > > they

> > > > > > could be locked up ( again ), and

" counselled " , but the

> fact

> > > > that

> > > > > > they have committed crimes like this before shows

that

they

> > are

> > > > > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother

with

> them?

> > > > they

> > > > > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same

thing

again,

> > so

> > > > > again

> > > > > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer

nothing to

> > > society,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > live outside society.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in

> response

> > to

> > > > two

> > > > > > recent

> > > > > > > comments made regarding the " humans

called animals "

> debate.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a

vegan:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats

seem to enjoy

> > playing

> > > > with

> > > > > > > their intended kill, and in most cases

continue

playing

> > with

> > > > it

> > > > > > after

> > > > > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen

are a lower

> > > > lifeform,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you

would deem

> any

> > > > living

> > > > > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those

human

animals

> > who

> > > > > commit

> > > > > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there

truly

anything

> > on

> > > > this

> > > > > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do

non-human

> > animals

> > > > rank

> > > > > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad

acts?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " I do think animals know the difference

between what

is

> > > > > acceptable

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in

the animal

> > world

> > > > > > different

> > > > > > > from in the human world? For instance, I

have many

times

> > > > observed

> > > > > > my

> > > > > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he

kills them,

and

> > then

> > > > > > praised

> > > > > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops

it at my

feet

> > and

> > > > > > waits

> > > > > > > for approval. I may not like to see the

small thing

being

> > > > batted

> > > > > > > around, but I understand that this is

instinct for my

> cat.

> > > > It's

> > > > > > what

> > > > > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

 

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I recently have been debating in my head the

subject

of

> > > > > > reprimanding,

> > > > > > > or training companion animals. Are we

exerting our

will

> > over

> > > > > > theirs

> > > > > > > when we reprimand them for something that

comes

natually

> > to

> > > > them,

> > > > > > but

> > > > > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see

teaching a

dog

> > > > basic

> > > > > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety

and the

> safety

> > of

> > > > > > others,

> > > > > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog

" tricks "

performed

> > soley

> > > > for

> > > > > > our

> > > > > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with

reprimanding my

cat

> > when

> > > > he

> > > > > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since

it only comes

naturally

> > to

> > > > him.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ,

" ckg "

> > > > <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I have been considering a question

since yesterday

when

> > > this

> > > > > > > horrific event

> > > > > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals

> broke

> > > > into a

> > > > > > > doctor's

> > > > > > > > house and beat his children and his

wife, beat him,

> > raped

> > > > his

> > > > > > > daughter. and

> > > > > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the

night before

> they

> > > > killed

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > (except the doctor is in critical

condition), stole

> > things,

> > > > and

> > > > > > > fled the

> > > > > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion

of fund-

raising

> > for

> > > > MS,

> > > > > > > since her

> > > > > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth

College.

> > The

> > > > > > younger

> > > > > > > daughter

> > > > > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > People are calling these two poor

excuses for human

> > > > > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do

that at first.

> Then

> > I

> > > > > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > > > > animals kill each other for things that

they

perceive

> > they

> > > > need

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > survive. "

> > > > > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals

beat and torture

> > other

> > > > > > animals

> > > > > > > over a

> > > > > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment

of it before

> > killing

> > > > the

> > > > > > > other animal

> > > > > > > > to take what they wanted? If not,

should these two

men

> > be

> > > > > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have

watched my

own

> > > > housecat

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > the past

> > > > > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for

hours. I

think

> > this

> > > > > > > behavior might

> > > > > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If

this is

true,

> as

> > > far

> > > > as

> > > > > I

> > > > > > > > understand it would be a similar

enjoyment of

killing

> > the

> > > > > animal

> > > > > > > before

> > > > > > > > actually killing it. Would that make

these two

> evildoers

> > up

> > > > in

> > > > > > > Connecticut

> > > > > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to

this and just

> > brought

> > > > it

> > > > > up

> > > > > > > here to see

> > > > > > > > what you thought.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Cyn

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Peter H

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email.

Don't

settle

> > for

> > > > > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Cyn,

 

Thank you so much for responding as you did. I am sorry you have

experienced such a difficult time, but I'm glad you were able to re-

examine things and perhaps find a little peace in your life. Sending

you healing vibes right now....

 

Jolene

 

 

 

 

 

, " ckg " <cynthiaandtheothers

wrote:

>

> Hi, Jolene-

>

> I recognized a lot of myself in what you said, especially the part

about

> confusion. In 1999, some very evil men at the place where I was

working set

> out to destroy me since I had brought a Teachers' Union to the

school where

> I was working. There had never been one there before, and these

evil men,

> in charge of the school, used an illness I had to not only fire me

but

> destroy me and my reputation. People I have known have been

appalled at how

> I survived it.

>

>

>

> To this day I hate these men. If someone were to tell me that any

or all of

> them had died painful deaths, I am not sure if I would be happy,

but I would

> be relieved that they were dead. Then, I realized that this relief

would

> come from me being released from the hate I carry for them day

after day.

> True, they are certainly evil men, and I know that every day that I

continue

> to hate them is a day that they continue to destroy me, but I

cannot yet

> give up the hate. I wish I could. They no longer care about me. I

wish I

> could no longer care about them.

>

>

>

> I am sorry to go on. It is just that this conversation struck a

real chord

> with me, even to the point that I am a little teary right now. I

guess I

> have realized that a part of being Vegan is to be able to work out

some

> peace for oneself with this world. Thanks for the thoughts you

expressed.

>

>

>

> Cyn

>

>

>

> _____

>

>

On

> Behalf Of jmaine37

> Monday, July 30, 2007 6:20 AM

>

> Re: Interesting question (to me at least)

>

>

>

> Forgetting and forgiving are two completely different things, you

> seem to have confused the two. I obviously would not forget what

> happened to my loved ones, but I would live each day as it was

> presented to me and keep them in my heart. As time went on, I think

> I would feel more sadness for the attackers and confusion over what

> caused them to commit such heinous crimes.

>

> This is largely a mental exercise, though, and I'm finding it

> increasingly difficult to imagine how I would feel if such a

> horrible thing were to happen. Suffice it to say that I would hope

I

> was big enough to forgive, and yes, not waste energy dwelling on

> those who wronged me or my family.

>

> Jolene

>

> @gro <%40>

ups.com,

> " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> wrote:

> >

> > You would only waste your energy if you had it in your mind a lot

> of

> > the time. You cannot mean to tell me that you would be able to

> > completely forget about one of your loved ones being brutally

> > abused! And if you cannot forget it you might spend just as much

> > energy on 'forgiving' someone than on not forgiving them.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > @gro <%40>

ups.com,

> " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Yes, but why waste that energy holding grudges when you could

> use

> > it

> > > in so many more positive ways? And why grant the person who

> wronged

> > > you that kind of control over your energy and emotions?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > @gro <%40>

> ups.com, " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person

> just

> > > > because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

> > > > forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

> > > >

> > > > Jo

> > > >

> > > > @gro <%

40>

> ups.com, " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger

for

> > the

> > > > > rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have

> compassion

> > > for

> > > > > them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction

of

> > > anger,

> > > > > hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think

> that,

> > > in

> > > > > time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion

> for

> > > the

> > > > > attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled

person,

> > and

> > > > > those attackers would have harmed me too, without even

> knowing.

> > > I

> > > > > know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had

a

> > > chance

> > > > > to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large

> enough

> > > view

> > > > > to accomodate compassion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jolene

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > @gro <%

40>

> ups.com, " heartwerk "

> <jo.heartwork@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The question I would ask is if you would have compassion

> for

> > > them

> > > > > if

> > > > > > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister

> > friend.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wouldn't.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jo

> > > > > >

> > > > > > @gro <%

40>

> ups.com, " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@>

> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I

> can't

> > > help

> > > > > but

> > > > > > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing

> their

> > > > > actions,

> > > > > > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make

> > them

> > > > > > believe

> > > > > > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill

> people. I

> > > do

> > > > > > > believe that every person is born good. I believe that,

> at

> > > > their

> > > > > > > base, every person strives for good throughout their

> lives.

> > > We

> > > > > all

> > > > > > > make decisions based on the information we receive from

> the

> > > > > world

> > > > > > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's

> concept

> > > that

> > > > > > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do

> > good.

> > > > > That

> > > > > > > every human makes the best choice available to them,

and

> > > that

> > > > no

> > > > > > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that

all

> > > living

> > > > > > > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and

> it's

> > > > > > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > @gro <%

40>

> ups.com, Peter VV <swpgh01@>

> > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any

> > > > compasion,

> > > > > as

> > > > > > > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in

> > mind

> > > > > what

> > > > > > > they did.

> > > > > > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be

> able

> > > to

> > > > > > think

> > > > > > > before they act, those two presumably thought it over

> > before

> > > > > > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them

> less

> > > than

> > > > > > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed

their

> > > rape

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live.

> Oh

> > > sure

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the

> > fact

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > they have committed crimes like this before shows that

> they

> > > are

> > > > > > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with

> > them?

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing

> again,

> > > so

> > > > > > again

> > > > > > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to

> > > > society,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > live outside society.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in

> > response

> > > to

> > > > > two

> > > > > > > recent

> > > > > > > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals "

> > debate.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy

> > > playing

> > > > > with

> > > > > > > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue

> playing

> > > with

> > > > > it

> > > > > > > after

> > > > > > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a

lower

> > > > > lifeform,

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would

deem

> > any

> > > > > living

> > > > > > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human

> animals

> > > who

> > > > > > commit

> > > > > > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly

> anything

> > > on

> > > > > this

> > > > > > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human

> > > animals

> > > > > rank

> > > > > > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " I do think animals know the difference between what

> is

> > > > > > acceptable

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal

> > > world

> > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many

> times

> > > > > observed

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them,

> and

> > > then

> > > > > > > praised

> > > > > > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my

> feet

> > > and

> > > > > > > waits

> > > > > > > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing

> being

> > > > > batted

> > > > > > > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my

> > cat.

> > > > > It's

> > > > > > > what

> > > > > > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject

> of

> > > > > > > reprimanding,

> > > > > > > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our

> will

> > > over

> > > > > > > theirs

> > > > > > > > when we reprimand them for something that comes

> natually

> > > to

> > > > > them,

> > > > > > > but

> > > > > > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a

> dog

> > > > > basic

> > > > > > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the

> > safety

> > > of

> > > > > > > others,

> > > > > > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks "

> performed

> > > soley

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > our

> > > > > > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my

> cat

> > > when

> > > > > he

> > > > > > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes

> naturally

> > > to

> > > > > him.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @gro

> <%40> ups.com, " ckg "

> > > > > <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday

> when

> > > > this

> > > > > > > > horrific event

> > > > > > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals

> > broke

> > > > > into a

> > > > > > > > doctor's

> > > > > > > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him,

> > > raped

> > > > > his

> > > > > > > > daughter. and

> > > > > > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before

> > they

> > > > > killed

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole

> > > things,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > fled the

> > > > > > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-

> raising

> > > for

> > > > > MS,

> > > > > > > > since her

> > > > > > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth

> College.

> > > The

> > > > > > > younger

> > > > > > > > daughter

> > > > > > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > > > > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first.

> > Then

> > > I

> > > > > > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > > > > > animals kill each other for things that they

> perceive

> > > they

> > > > > need

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > survive. "

> > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and

torture

> > > other

> > > > > > > animals

> > > > > > > > over a

> > > > > > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before

> > > killing

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > other animal

> > > > > > > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two

> men

> > > be

> > > > > > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my

> own

> > > > > housecat

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > the past

> > > > > > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I

> think

> > > this

> > > > > > > > behavior might

> > > > > > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is

> true,

> > as

> > > > far

> > > > > as

> > > > > > I

> > > > > > > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of

> killing

> > > the

> > > > > > animal

> > > > > > > > before

> > > > > > > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two

> > evildoers

> > > up

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > > Connecticut

> > > > > > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just

> > > brought

> > > > > it

> > > > > > up

> > > > > > > > here to see

> > > > > > > > > what you thought.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cyn

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Peter H

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't

> settle

> > > for

> > > > > > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Jolene

 

I understand your point of view, but for me this would not work. For me, I

would hope to be big enough not to forgive people who hurt my loved ones.

 

Jo

 

 

-

" jmaine37 " <zuzu37

 

Monday, July 30, 2007 11:19 AM

Re: Interesting question (to me at least)

 

 

> Forgetting and forgiving are two completely different things, you

> seem to have confused the two. I obviously would not forget what

> happened to my loved ones, but I would live each day as it was

> presented to me and keep them in my heart. As time went on, I think

> I would feel more sadness for the attackers and confusion over what

> caused them to commit such heinous crimes.

>

> This is largely a mental exercise, though, and I'm finding it

> increasingly difficult to imagine how I would feel if such a

> horrible thing were to happen. Suffice it to say that I would hope I

> was big enough to forgive, and yes, not waste energy dwelling on

> those who wronged me or my family.

>

> Jolene

>

>

>

>

>

> , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork

> wrote:

> >

> > You would only waste your energy if you had it in your mind a lot

> of

> > the time. You cannot mean to tell me that you would be able to

> > completely forget about one of your loved ones being brutally

> > abused! And if you cannot forget it you might spend just as much

> > energy on 'forgiving' someone than on not forgiving them.

> >

> > Jo

> >

> > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Yes, but why waste that energy holding grudges when you could

> use

> > it

> > > in so many more positive ways? And why grant the person who

> wronged

> > > you that kind of control over your energy and emotions?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " heartwerk " <jo.heartwork@>

> > > wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I don't think you would necessarily become a bitter person

> just

> > > > because you cannot forgive someone for their actions. I don't

> > > > forgive people easily, and I am not at all bitter :-)

> > > >

> > > > Jo

> > > >

> > > > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, I certainly wouldn't want to hold on to that anger for

> > the

> > > > > rest of my life. To be honest, no, I wouldn't have

> compassion

> > > for

> > > > > them initially. I think that the obvious natural reaction of

> > > anger,

> > > > > hurt, hatred, etc would be there. But, I'd like to think

> that,

> > > in

> > > > > time, I could let that go, and feel some sort of compassion

> for

> > > the

> > > > > attackers. Otherwise, I become a bitter, hate-filled person,

> > and

> > > > > those attackers would have harmed me too, without even

> knowing.

> > > I

> > > > > know it's difficult to imagine, and luckily I've never had a

> > > chance

> > > > > to test this theory, but I believe I could have a large

> enough

> > > view

> > > > > to accomodate compassion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jolene

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , " heartwerk "

> <jo.heartwork@>

> > > > > wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The question I would ask is if you would have compassion

> for

> > > them

> > > > > if

> > > > > > they beat, raped and killed your daughter/mother/sister

> > friend.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I wouldn't.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jo

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " jmaine37 " <zuzu37@>

> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I guess, as far as my own feelings are concerned, I

> can't

> > > help

> > > > > but

> > > > > > > have compassion for them. I'm certainly not excusing

> their

> > > > > actions,

> > > > > > > but I wonder what in their lives has transpired to make

> > them

> > > > > > believe

> > > > > > > that the right choice is to rob, torture and kill

> people. I

> > > do

> > > > > > > believe that every person is born good. I believe that,

> at

> > > > their

> > > > > > > base, every person strives for good throughout their

> lives.

> > > We

> > > > > all

> > > > > > > make decisions based on the information we receive from

> the

> > > > > world

> > > > > > > around us. And I do ardently believe in Socrate's

> concept

> > > that

> > > > > > > knowledge is virtue - in that when we know good, we do

> > good.

> > > > > That

> > > > > > > every human makes the best choice available to them, and

> > > that

> > > > no

> > > > > > > human ever chooses to do evil.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Couple that with my belief that we are all One, that all

> > > living

> > > > > > > creatures are connected by a universal life force, and

> it's

> > > > > > > difficult to wish death upon anyone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , Peter VV <swpgh01@>

> > wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I do not consider those two criminals worthy of any

> > > > compasion,

> > > > > as

> > > > > > > they themselves seem incapable of giving any,bearing in

> > mind

> > > > > what

> > > > > > > they did.

> > > > > > > > Animals act on instinct, humans are supposed to be

> able

> > > to

> > > > > > think

> > > > > > > before they act, those two presumably thought it over

> > before

> > > > > > > deciding to carry out their actions which makes them

> less

> > > than

> > > > > > > animals. They had no excuses and obviously enjoyed their

> > > rape

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > murder, and therefore in my mind dont deserve to live.

> Oh

> > > sure

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > could be locked up ( again ), and " counselled " , but the

> > fact

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > they have committed crimes like this before shows that

> they

> > > are

> > > > > > > unlikely to change. So the question is why bother with

> > them?

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > are dangerous and could escape and do the same thing

> again,

> > > so

> > > > > > again

> > > > > > > why bother, why take that chance. They offer nothing to

> > > > society,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > live outside society.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The Valley Vegan................

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > jmaine37 <zuzu37@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > I'm interested in where my mind goes in

> > response

> > > to

> > > > > two

> > > > > > > recent

> > > > > > > > comments made regarding the " humans called animals "

> > debate.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The first simply surprised me, coming from a vegan:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " Sure carniverous animals such as cats seem to enjoy

> > > playing

> > > > > with

> > > > > > > > their intended kill, and in most cases continue

> playing

> > > with

> > > > > it

> > > > > > > after

> > > > > > > > it has expired. But those wastes of oxygen are a lower

> > > > > lifeform,

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > IMO dont deserve to live. " - Peter VV

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'm intrigued, I guess, because, Peter, you would deem

> > any

> > > > > living

> > > > > > > > thing unworthy of life. Do not even those human

> animals

> > > who

> > > > > > commit

> > > > > > > > heinous acts deserve commpassion? Is there truly

> anything

> > > on

> > > > > this

> > > > > > > > earth that does not deserve to live? Or do non-human

> > > animals

> > > > > rank

> > > > > > > > higher than humans who choose to commit bad acts?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also, this, from Jo:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " I do think animals know the difference between what

> is

> > > > > > acceptable

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > what is not if they are reprimanded. "

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > First, is what is considered acceptable in the animal

> > > world

> > > > > > > different

> > > > > > > > from in the human world? For instance, I have many

> times

> > > > > observed

> > > > > > > my

> > > > > > > > cat playing with mice or moles before he kills them,

> and

> > > then

> > > > > > > praised

> > > > > > > > my cat profusely when he comes to me, drops it at my

> feet

> > > and

> > > > > > > waits

> > > > > > > > for approval. I may not like to see the small thing

> being

> > > > > batted

> > > > > > > > around, but I understand that this is instinct for my

> > cat.

> > > > > It's

> > > > > > > what

> > > > > > > > cats do. I'm praising him for doing his job.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I recently have been debating in my head the subject

> of

> > > > > > > reprimanding,

> > > > > > > > or training companion animals. Are we exerting our

> will

> > > over

> > > > > > > theirs

> > > > > > > > when we reprimand them for something that comes

> natually

> > > to

> > > > > them,

> > > > > > > but

> > > > > > > > is distasteful to us, as humans? I can see teaching a

> dog

> > > > > basic

> > > > > > > > obedience commands, say, for its own safety and the

> > safety

> > > of

> > > > > > > others,

> > > > > > > > while I disagree with teaching a dog " tricks "

> performed

> > > soley

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > our

> > > > > > > > amusement. So, I also disagree with reprimanding my

> cat

> > > when

> > > > > he

> > > > > > > > is " playing " with a mouse, since it only comes

> naturally

> > > to

> > > > > him.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Any other thoughts out there?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jolene

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > , " ckg "

> > > > > <cynthiaandtheothers@>

> > > > > > > > wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I have been considering a question since yesterday

> when

> > > > this

> > > > > > > > horrific event

> > > > > > > > > happened up in Connecticut. Two lifelong criminals

> > broke

> > > > > into a

> > > > > > > > doctor's

> > > > > > > > > house and beat his children and his wife, beat him,

> > > raped

> > > > > his

> > > > > > > > daughter. and

> > > > > > > > > eventually kept this up throughout the night before

> > they

> > > > > killed

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > family

> > > > > > > > > (except the doctor is in critical condition), stole

> > > things,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > fled the

> > > > > > > > > house. The daughter had been a champion of fund-

> raising

> > > for

> > > > > MS,

> > > > > > > > since her

> > > > > > > > > mother had it, and was due to go to Dartmouth

> College.

> > > The

> > > > > > > younger

> > > > > > > > daughter

> > > > > > > > > was the one that was raped, I think.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > People are calling these two poor excuses for human

> > > > > > > > beings " animals " . That

> > > > > > > > > gave me pause because I wanted to do that at first.

> > Then

> > > I

> > > > > > > > thought, " True,

> > > > > > > > > animals kill each other for things that they

> perceive

> > > they

> > > > > need

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > survive. "

> > > > > > > > > What I'm thinking is, would animals beat and torture

> > > other

> > > > > > > animals

> > > > > > > > over a

> > > > > > > > > long period of time for the enjoyment of it before

> > > killing

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > other animal

> > > > > > > > > to take what they wanted? If not, should these two

> men

> > > be

> > > > > > > > called " animals " ?

> > > > > > > > > Then I thought of the housecat. I have watched my

> own

> > > > > housecat

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > the past

> > > > > > > > > worrying a small toy mouse to death for hours. I

> think

> > > this

> > > > > > > > behavior might

> > > > > > > > > go on in the wild with the big cats. If this is

> true,

> > as

> > > > far

> > > > > as

> > > > > > I

> > > > > > > > > understand it would be a similar enjoyment of

> killing

> > > the

> > > > > > animal

> > > > > > > > before

> > > > > > > > > actually killing it. Would that make these two

> > evildoers

> > > up

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > > Connecticut

> > > > > > > > > " animals " ?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I honestly do not know the answer to this and just

> > > brought

> > > > > it

> > > > > > up

> > > > > > > > here to see

> > > > > > > > > what you thought.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Cyn

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Peter H

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't

> settle

> > > for

> > > > > > > less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

>

>

>

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