Guest guest Posted December 16, 2001 Report Share Posted December 16, 2001 Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! Janey x Chris - sorry to hear about your cat. I know you will miss her. In my experience (with my budgies) it is best to find a new one to keep you company. I wish you good memories of her. Jo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2001 Report Share Posted December 16, 2001 My budgie friend lives in a cage where he feels safe, but comes out, when we can tempt him. He loves a fuss, and all the attemtion he can get. Jo Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Jo Although I can see similarities to owning cats and birds, there are the obvious differences. My budgie lived in his life in a cage (poor thing) unless I occasionally let him fly around the living room on the weekend. What pleasure was there for him? I had the pleasure of watching him in his cage (I wouldn't get that pleasure now that I'm an adult and know better) but he must have been very miserable and yes, I always feel bad about keeping a caged bird. I have more respect for bird owners whose birds live in aviaries. At least they have more room to fly around in, can choose where to perch and be happier. Where I disagree with you over cats is that my cats have total freedom to go in and out of the cat flap all day long (and they do!). I do lock them in at night because one of my cats was killed by a car at night, but that being said, I don't lock them into one room - they have the entire run of my four bedroomed house. I think even you would find it hard to draw similarities on your budgie and my cats, but I would if your budgie lived a happier life in an aviary. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM Re: caged birds Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 hmmm, having cats is a tough one - I took in a kitten who had pneumonia, and it was predicted she would be lucky to live 24 hours - that was 9 years ago, and I must admit she has been responsible for the death of countless rabbit, rats, mice, voles, moles and any other small vermin - but not birds, for some reason - and I do personally feel responsible for each of those deaths - because if I hadn't saved that one cat, those hundreds of others would probably have lived a normal life - (the only plus point, is that she always eats what she kills, she just leaves me the stomach to clean up) As for cats killing countless birds - thats true, but then we are also keeping the bird life unnaturally high, through feeding them over the winter - But cats, have been hanging around with humans a long time now - ever since we became farmers and started storing our crops, because the crops attracted mice/rats which then attracted cats - so they decided to stay with us, in this cosy relationship - and I do think cats are one of those animals which can fend for themselves - feral cats are highly successful and any cat can become feral - So if they were released into the wild, I reckon they would fare a lot better than any other domesticated animals we keep - On saying that I have another cat who is getting rather old now, and all she does is sleep in the cosy house - so I wouldn't rate her chances of surviving a scottish winter - hmm, having cats is a tough one - Joeann Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Janey I think this discussion rather silly, as you are drawing conclusions on a situation you know nothing about. You do not know how happy my budgie is, so you really cannot comment on it. Jo --"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer - Janey Monday, December 17, 2001 1:04 PM Re: caged birds Jo Although I can see similarities to owning cats and birds, there are the obvious differences. My budgie lived in his life in a cage (poor thing) unless I occasionally let him fly around the living room on the weekend. What pleasure was there for him? I had the pleasure of watching him in his cage (I wouldn't get that pleasure now that I'm an adult and know better) but he must have been very miserable and yes, I always feel bad about keeping a caged bird. I have more respect for bird owners whose birds live in aviaries. At least they have more room to fly around in, can choose where to perch and be happier. Where I disagree with you over cats is that my cats have total freedom to go in and out of the cat flap all day long (and they do!). I do lock them in at night because one of my cats was killed by a car at night, but that being said, I don't lock them into one room - they have the entire run of my four bedroomed house. I think even you would find it hard to draw similarities on your budgie and my cats, but I would if your budgie lived a happier life in an aviary. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM Re: caged birds Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Joeann I think you have covered all the answers there. I would just disagree with what you said about keeping the bird population unnaturally high. All reports say that the bird population is in rapid decline. The cat population, on the other hand, is far too high for a balance. Another point is that my budgie did not live in Australia. He was not captured from the wild and kidnapped to live a horrible unnatural life with me. In connection with Janey's comments on my budgie 'living a happier life in an aviary' I have known many a budgie die in the cold being kept in one of these 'ideal' aviaries. I am not arguing against people owning cats, just pointing out that they do it for their own selfish pleasure, just as much as anyone who owns a budgie. People choose to own cats - they didn't choose to rescue a greyhound or an injured fox or a tarantula, or some other animal which they did not find so attractive! If they did not get pleasure from owning a cat they wouldn't do it - they would just donate a little money to help the greyhound, the injured fox or the tarantula, they wouldn't share their homes with them. Jo > hmmm, having cats is a tough one - > I took in a kitten who had pneumonia, and it was > predicted she would be lucky to live 24 hours - > that was 9 years ago, and I must admit she has been > responsible for the death of countless rabbit, rats, > mice, voles, moles and any other small vermin - but > not birds, for some reason - and I do personally feel > responsible for each of those deaths - because if I > hadn't saved that one cat, those hundreds of others > would probably have lived a normal life - > (the only plus point, is that she always eats what she > kills, she just leaves me the stomach to clean up) > > As for cats killing countless birds - thats true, but > then we are also keeping the bird life unnaturally > high, through feeding them over the winter - > > But cats, have been hanging around with humans a long > time now - ever since we became farmers and started > storing our crops, because the crops attracted > mice/rats which then attracted cats - so they decided > to stay with us, in this cosy relationship - > > and I do think cats are one of those animals which can > fend for themselves - feral cats are highly successful > and any cat can become feral - > So if they were released into the wild, I reckon they > would fare a lot better than any other domesticated > animals we keep - > On saying that I have another cat who is getting > rather old now, and all she does is sleep in the cosy > house - so I wouldn't rate her chances of surviving a > scottish winter - > hmm, having cats is a tough one - > Joeann > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 > As for cats killing countless birds - thats true, but > then we are also keeping the bird life unnaturally > high, through feeding them over the winter - I have three cats, two of which have never bothered to catch anything! The other one grew out of killing well over two years ago. Its a myth that all cats kill, some do, some don't. Lucky mine aren't interested. But they do love things that move -- like my ball of string yesterday as we were trying to string our Christmas cards up!!! Janey x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Actually Jo, no I don't think its silly. I think keeping a caged bird is cruel, but I'll drop this discussion because you are getting defensive. If you think keeping a bird locked up in a cage is kind, then that's your prerogative. Somehow I have different views, and strong ones at that. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 1:59 PM Re: caged birds Janey I think this discussion rather silly, as you are drawing conclusions on a situation you know nothing about. You do not know how happy my budgie is, so you really cannot comment on it. Jo --"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer - Janey Monday, December 17, 2001 1:04 PM Re: caged birds Jo Although I can see similarities to owning cats and birds, there are the obvious differences. My budgie lived in his life in a cage (poor thing) unless I occasionally let him fly around the living room on the weekend. What pleasure was there for him? I had the pleasure of watching him in his cage (I wouldn't get that pleasure now that I'm an adult and know better) but he must have been very miserable and yes, I always feel bad about keeping a caged bird. I have more respect for bird owners whose birds live in aviaries. At least they have more room to fly around in, can choose where to perch and be happier. Where I disagree with you over cats is that my cats have total freedom to go in and out of the cat flap all day long (and they do!). I do lock them in at night because one of my cats was killed by a car at night, but that being said, I don't lock them into one room - they have the entire run of my four bedroomed house. I think even you would find it hard to draw similarities on your budgie and my cats, but I would if your budgie lived a happier life in an aviary. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM Re: caged birds Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I am not arguing against people owning cats, just pointing out that they do it for their own selfish pleasure, just as much as anyone who owns a budgie. People choose to own cats - they didn't choose to rescue a greyhound or an injured fox or a tarantula, or some other animal which they did not find so attractive! ~~~ I don't think I totally agree with this. I donate money to Farm Sanctuary to help resuced cows and pigs etc.. I wouldn't own a cow or a pig, not because I don't find them attractive, but because I don't have any room for a cow or a pig. If/when I own some huge ranch somewhere I will resuce the cows and pigs too. As far as a greyhound, or any other dog, again I don't have the room. I don't think it's fair to keep a dog in a smaller apartment; unless of course the dog is super small himself. Most of the dogs at the shelter here are big like German Shepard's and a dog that size would be miserable in my little apartment. Not to mention that I go to school all day long, so it would be all alone and would have no one to take it outside or whatnot. A spider? I might consider rescuing one, but I'd have to read up a bit on it first. I have no idea how to feed one, nor any other myriad of things one should know when they have a companion animal. Cats are another story. Cats not only can utilize the space on the ground, but given the opportunity they will use the space up in the air as well. Many a time my cat would perch on the windowsill, the back of the couch, or in the bookcase...all places impossible for most other animals. Cats only need a littler box cleaning once or twice a day, you don't have to worry about taking it outside. So the reason why I, right now, resuce only cats has nothing to do with selfishness, it has to do with LACK of selfishness because I know that I cannot provide the right environment for animals like dogs or cows or sheep and no matter how much I want to bring one home, I know I shouldn't...it's not fair to the animal. Talisman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Janey It is obviously silly to carry on this conversation because you are accusing me of keeping an animal in unnatural circumstances, but you had not thought that you do the same with your cats (or do they have Christmas string in their normal surroundings). You see only half the story - the half that suits your own theories, and do not like it when those theories are used to describe your own situation. I personally do not think that my relationship with my bird is cruel. I also do not think that it is cruel that you keep cats. I think the fact that you asked the question, with an apology, and then said that you did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, shows either that you had not actually thought much about what you said, or that you did indeed intend to hurt my feelings. I think your one-sided accusation, without an acknowledgement that you are doing what you say is wrong, is silly and shows a lack of understanding of yourself and others, and that is why I chose not to discuss the situation further. Jo Actually Jo, no I don't think its silly. I think keeping a caged bird is cruel, but I'll drop this discussion because you are getting defensive. If you think keeping a bird locked up in a cage is kind, then that's your prerogative. Somehow I have different views, and strong ones at that. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 1:59 PM Re: caged birds Janey I think this discussion rather silly, as you are drawing conclusions on a situation you know nothing about. You do not know how happy my budgie is, so you really cannot comment on it. Jo --"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer - Janey Monday, December 17, 2001 1:04 PM Re: caged birds Jo Although I can see similarities to owning cats and birds, there are the obvious differences. My budgie lived in his life in a cage (poor thing) unless I occasionally let him fly around the living room on the weekend. What pleasure was there for him? I had the pleasure of watching him in his cage (I wouldn't get that pleasure now that I'm an adult and know better) but he must have been very miserable and yes, I always feel bad about keeping a caged bird. I have more respect for bird owners whose birds live in aviaries. At least they have more room to fly around in, can choose where to perch and be happier. Where I disagree with you over cats is that my cats have total freedom to go in and out of the cat flap all day long (and they do!). I do lock them in at night because one of my cats was killed by a car at night, but that being said, I don't lock them into one room - they have the entire run of my four bedroomed house. I think even you would find it hard to draw similarities on your budgie and my cats, but I would if your budgie lived a happier life in an aviary. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM Re: caged birds Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Talisman I think most people who keep cats do so because they like cats and because they feel that cats don't need much looking after. I note that you have a box for your cat/s. Not many people bother. Most cats are left outside to drink from other peoples bird baths and poop in other peoples gardens. Most cats are left outside at night, and try to find a short period of warmth on warm car bonnets and shelter from the rain under those cars. I still hold my opinion that most people who have cats do so mainly because they like cats as companions, not as selflessly as some people would like to think. Jo > I don't think I totally agree with this. I donate money to Farm Sanctuary > to help resuced cows and pigs etc.. I wouldn't own a cow or a pig, not > because I don't find them attractive, but because I don't have any room for > a cow or a pig. If/when I own some huge ranch somewhere I will resuce the > cows and pigs too. As far as a greyhound, or any other dog, again I don't > have the room. I don't think it's fair to keep a dog in a smaller > apartment; unless of course the dog is super small himself. Most of the > dogs at the shelter here are big like German Shepard's and a dog that size > would be miserable in my little apartment. Not to mention that I go to > school all day long, so it would be all alone and would have no one to take > it outside or whatnot. > > A spider? I might consider rescuing one, but I'd have to read up a bit on > it first. I have no idea how to feed one, nor any other myriad of things > one should know when they have a companion animal. > > Cats are another story. Cats not only can utilize the space on the ground, > but given the opportunity they will use the space up in the air as well. > Many a time my cat would perch on the windowsill, the back of the couch, or > in the bookcase...all places impossible for most other animals. Cats only > need a littler box cleaning once or twice a day, you don't have to worry > about taking it outside. > > So the reason why I, right now, resuce only cats has nothing to do with > selfishness, it has to do with LACK of selfishness because I know that I > cannot provide the right environment for animals like dogs or cows or sheep > and no matter how much I want to bring one home, I know I shouldn't...it's > not fair to the animal. > > Talisman To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Exactly, you said you chose not to discuss the matter further and I agreed (although I disagree with you over the caged bird thing). Asking to drop a discussion means exactly that, so I had assumed that was the end to the matter. - Peter Monday, December 17, 2001 3:16 PM Re: caged birds Janey It is obviously silly to carry on this conversation because you are accusing me of keeping an animal in unnatural circumstances, but you had not thought that you do the same with your cats (or do they have Christmas string in their normal surroundings). You see only half the story - the half that suits your own theories, and do not like it when those theories are used to describe your own situation. I personally do not think that my relationship with my bird is cruel. I also do not think that it is cruel that you keep cats. I think the fact that you asked the question, with an apology, and then said that you did not mean to hurt anyone's feelings, shows either that you had not actually thought much about what you said, or that you did indeed intend to hurt my feelings. I think your one-sided accusation, without an acknowledgement that you are doing what you say is wrong, is silly and shows a lack of understanding of yourself and others, and that is why I chose not to discuss the situation further. Jo Actually Jo, no I don't think its silly. I think keeping a caged bird is cruel, but I'll drop this discussion because you are getting defensive. If you think keeping a bird locked up in a cage is kind, then that's your prerogative. Somehow I have different views, and strong ones at that. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 1:59 PM Re: caged birds Janey I think this discussion rather silly, as you are drawing conclusions on a situation you know nothing about. You do not know how happy my budgie is, so you really cannot comment on it. Jo --"All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer - Janey Monday, December 17, 2001 1:04 PM Re: caged birds Jo Although I can see similarities to owning cats and birds, there are the obvious differences. My budgie lived in his life in a cage (poor thing) unless I occasionally let him fly around the living room on the weekend. What pleasure was there for him? I had the pleasure of watching him in his cage (I wouldn't get that pleasure now that I'm an adult and know better) but he must have been very miserable and yes, I always feel bad about keeping a caged bird. I have more respect for bird owners whose birds live in aviaries. At least they have more room to fly around in, can choose where to perch and be happier. Where I disagree with you over cats is that my cats have total freedom to go in and out of the cat flap all day long (and they do!). I do lock them in at night because one of my cats was killed by a car at night, but that being said, I don't lock them into one room - they have the entire run of my four bedroomed house. I think even you would find it hard to draw similarities on your budgie and my cats, but I would if your budgie lived a happier life in an aviary. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM Re: caged birds Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Thought you wanted to drop this *silly* discussion?! Obviously not! - " Jo " <Heartwork Monday, December 17, 2001 3:23 PM Re: caged birds > Talisman > > I think most people who keep cats do so because they like cats and because > they feel that cats don't need much looking after. I note that you have a > box for your > cat/s. Not many people bother. Most cats are left outside to drink from > other peoples bird baths and poop in other peoples gardens. Most cats are > left outside at night, and try to find a short period of warmth on warm car > bonnets and shelter from the rain under those cars. > > I still hold my opinion that most people who have cats do so mainly because > they like cats as companions, not as selflessly as some people would like to > think. > > Jo > > > I don't think I totally agree with this. I donate money to Farm Sanctuary > > to help resuced cows and pigs etc.. I wouldn't own a cow or a pig, not > > because I don't find them attractive, but because I don't have any room > for > > a cow or a pig. If/when I own some huge ranch somewhere I will resuce the > > cows and pigs too. As far as a greyhound, or any other dog, again I don't > > have the room. I don't think it's fair to keep a dog in a smaller > > apartment; unless of course the dog is super small himself. Most of the > > dogs at the shelter here are big like German Shepard's and a dog that size > > would be miserable in my little apartment. Not to mention that I go to > > school all day long, so it would be all alone and would have no one to > take > > it outside or whatnot. > > > > A spider? I might consider rescuing one, but I'd have to read up a bit > on > > it first. I have no idea how to feed one, nor any other myriad of things > > one should know when they have a companion animal. > > > > Cats are another story. Cats not only can utilize the space on the > ground, > > but given the opportunity they will use the space up in the air as well. > > Many a time my cat would perch on the windowsill, the back of the couch, > or > > in the bookcase...all places impossible for most other animals. Cats only > > need a littler box cleaning once or twice a day, you don't have to worry > > about taking it outside. > > > > So the reason why I, right now, resuce only cats has nothing to do with > > selfishness, it has to do with LACK of selfishness because I know that I > > cannot provide the right environment for animals like dogs or cows or > sheep > > and no matter how much I want to bring one home, I know I shouldn't...it's > > not fair to the animal. > > > > Talisman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Jane > Actually Jo, no I don't think its silly. I think keeping a caged bird is cruel, but I'll drop this discussion because you are getting > defensive. If you think keeping a bird locked up in a cage is kind, then that's your prerogative. Somehow I have different views, > and strong ones at that. Please clarify which you think is more cruel - to keep a bird in a cage, or to throw it out into the wild where it would either be killed by a cat or some other predator, or die in the cold - probably in the space of about 20 minutes? Wasn't it you who complained about birds dying in the snow? Come on - let's have some consistency in your arguments. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 Don't birds like to be in groups ? I'd like some birds but so would the cats!!!! I'd like ducks or chickens if I had the room I had a pigeon friend for a few weeks while he was recuperating I loved the way he trusted me . Once he got better he flew further away each day till he didn't come back He was definitely saying good bye Angie - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM Re: caged birds Janey I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? Jo As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. Janey x - Jo Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM Re: caged birds Janey >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I have an old mum who wouldn't survive on her own outside ( or inside ) thats a tough one too but then life is tough Just help those whose paths cross yours ---thats all you can do - " joeann cantillon " <goosy_gander Monday, December 17, 2001 1:39 PM Re: caged birds > hmmm, having cats is a tough one - > I took in a kitten who had pneumonia, and it was > predicted she would be lucky to live 24 hours - > that was 9 years ago, and I must admit she has been > responsible for the death of countless rabbit, rats, > mice, voles, moles and any other small vermin - but > not birds, for some reason - and I do personally feel > responsible for each of those deaths - because if I > hadn't saved that one cat, those hundreds of others > would probably have lived a normal life - > (the only plus point, is that she always eats what she > kills, she just leaves me the stomach to clean up) > > As for cats killing countless birds - thats true, but > then we are also keeping the bird life unnaturally > high, through feeding them over the winter - > > But cats, have been hanging around with humans a long > time now - ever since we became farmers and started > storing our crops, because the crops attracted > mice/rats which then attracted cats - so they decided > to stay with us, in this cosy relationship - > > and I do think cats are one of those animals which can > fend for themselves - feral cats are highly successful > and any cat can become feral - > So if they were released into the wild, I reckon they > would fare a lot better than any other domesticated > animals we keep - > On saying that I have another cat who is getting > rather old now, and all she does is sleep in the cosy > house - so I wouldn't rate her chances of surviving a > scottish winter - > hmm, having cats is a tough one - > Joeann > > > > > > > > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my. > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 17, 2001 Report Share Posted December 17, 2001 I got my cats because either the Rspca was getting overloaded or because a school pupil had carelessly allowed her cat to have kittens . They are also small and easy to look after But they decide what they want to do If they want to stay out thats their choice I try not to be a dictator Unfortunately with dogs one has to because of local bylaws etc Angie - " Jo " <Heartwork Monday, December 17, 2001 3:23 PM Re: caged birds > Talisman > > I think most people who keep cats do so because they like cats and because > they feel that cats don't need much looking after. I note that you have a > box for your > cat/s. Not many people bother. Most cats are left outside to drink from > other peoples bird baths and poop in other peoples gardens. Most cats are > left outside at night, and try to find a short period of warmth on warm car > bonnets and shelter from the rain under those cars. > > I still hold my opinion that most people who have cats do so mainly because > they like cats as companions, not as selflessly as some people would like to > think. > > Jo > > > I don't think I totally agree with this. I donate money to Farm Sanctuary > > to help resuced cows and pigs etc.. I wouldn't own a cow or a pig, not > > because I don't find them attractive, but because I don't have any room > for > > a cow or a pig. If/when I own some huge ranch somewhere I will resuce the > > cows and pigs too. As far as a greyhound, or any other dog, again I don't > > have the room. I don't think it's fair to keep a dog in a smaller > > apartment; unless of course the dog is super small himself. Most of the > > dogs at the shelter here are big like German Shepard's and a dog that size > > would be miserable in my little apartment. Not to mention that I go to > > school all day long, so it would be all alone and would have no one to > take > > it outside or whatnot. > > > > A spider? I might consider rescuing one, but I'd have to read up a bit > on > > it first. I have no idea how to feed one, nor any other myriad of things > > one should know when they have a companion animal. > > > > Cats are another story. Cats not only can utilize the space on the > ground, > > but given the opportunity they will use the space up in the air as well. > > Many a time my cat would perch on the windowsill, the back of the couch, > or > > in the bookcase...all places impossible for most other animals. Cats only > > need a littler box cleaning once or twice a day, you don't have to worry > > about taking it outside. > > > > So the reason why I, right now, resuce only cats has nothing to do with > > selfishness, it has to do with LACK of selfishness because I know that I > > cannot provide the right environment for animals like dogs or cows or > sheep > > and no matter how much I want to bring one home, I know I shouldn't...it's > > not fair to the animal. > > > > Talisman > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 i know some birds are extremely social, and need to be kept with others..heck, who wants to be alone all day anyways when we had chickens, we never had less than 3, so, they kept each other company runnin all over the backyard.. and, we had geese also..great burglar deterents.... oh well..i miss em fraggle " Angie Wright " <angiewright wrote: >Don't birds like to be in groups ? I'd like some birds but so would the cats!!!! I'd like ducks or chickens if I had the room > I had a pigeon friend for a few weeks while he was recuperating I loved the way he trusted me . Once he got better he flew further away each day till he didn't come back He was definitely saying good bye Angie > - > Jo > > Monday, December 17, 2001 12:43 PM > Re: caged birds > > > Janey > > I am not upset, although you did apologise when you asked the question, so I must admit to thinking that maybe that was the point of asking the question. I don't feel guilty about it either, any more than you do for owning cats. Did you feel your bird was unhappy? > > Jo > > > As a young teenager I used to own a budgie and looking back on it both my mum and I feel terrible about it. We both (personally) think having a caged bird was cruel. But thats just my opinion and of course you are entitled to yours. I didn't mean to upset you, I was just curious. > > Janey > x > > - > Jo > > Monday, December 17, 2001 9:08 AM > Re: caged birds > > > Janey > >Perhaps I shouldn't ask Jo, but do you keep your budgies in cages or in an aviary? >Guess you knew somebody would ask that one! Sorry! > > We have had this discussion before, when I said that I would be quite happy if legislation was brought in to stop all animals being bred as pets. Environmentally speaking, this legislation should start with cats. The cat population is so unbalanced that the wildbird population is in dire straits. > > I know that the argument goes that cat lovers get their cats from rescue centres, but surely that is just an excuse to have an animal that you love? If nobody got their cats from rescue centres then surely it would have the same effect as nobody getting their budgie from a pet shop. Whether you get your cat from a rescue centre, and it lives an unnatural life sleeping on your bed, or whether I get my budgie from a pet shop and he lives an unnatural life mainly in a cage, the end product is the same - animals living unnaturally and being loved and protected by us! > > If my budgie was released into the wild to live a 'natural' undomesticated life he would enjoy it as much as me (if I was released to live a totally natural life), and survive about as long. > > Jo > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 Angie > Don't birds like to be in groups ? They do, but as with dogs, human families count as groups. > I'd like some birds but so would the cats!!!! I'd like ducks or chickens if I had the room I'd love ducks, but my garden obviously isn't appealing to them. I visit the ducks, coots and geese on the lake at work quite often. >I had a pigeon friend for a few weeks while he was recuperating I loved the way he trusted me . Once he got better he flew > further away each day till he didn't come back He was definitely saying good bye Angie I've heard before that pigeons do that - it must be their way of preparing you for separation. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 How lovely! It must have been a happy time for you, though sad to say goodbye. As for chickens - if you ever decide you have the space I'd definitely recommend it. Our cats were terrified of the chickens we had. The chickens thought the cats might feed them and ran down the garden after them. As far as the cats were concerned this was their worst nightmare come true - bloody great versions of the tiny creatures they were used to persecuting, come back to wreak revenge. Served them right, I thought! All ended happily and the cats gave the chicks a very wide berth after that. You could also give the eggs to someone who would otherwise buy battery eggs - if you were sure you couldn't convert them to veganism of course. Cathy > ---------- > Angie Wright[sMTP:angiewright] > Reply > 17 December 2001 22:09 > > Re: caged birds > > Don't birds like to be in groups ? I'd like some birds but so would > the cats!!!! I'd like ducks or chickens if I had the room > I had a pigeon friend for a few weeks while he was recuperating I loved > the way he trusted me . Once he got better he flew further away each day > till he didn't come back He was definitely saying good bye Angie > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 I thought we were dropping this ? .The alternative to a caged bird doesn't have to be letting it loose in the UK in winter !!!!!!!!!! - Peter Monday, December 17, 2001 5:21 PM Re: caged birds Jane > Actually Jo, no I don't think its silly. I think keeping a caged bird is cruel, but I'll drop this discussion because you are getting > defensive. If you think keeping a bird locked up in a cage is kind, then that's your prerogative. Somehow I have different views, > and strong ones at that. Please clarify which you think is more cruel - to keep a bird in a cage, or to throw it out into the wild where it would either be killed by a cat or some other predator, or die in the cold - probably in the space of about 20 minutes? Wasn't it you who complained about birds dying in the snow? Come on - let's have some consistency in your arguments. BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2001 Report Share Posted December 18, 2001 How nice of them I'd love to get that relationship again but I don't feel confident with injured birds and now always pass them on to" experts" Angie - Jo Tuesday, December 18, 2001 12:24 PM Re: caged birds > Don't birds like to be in groups ? They do, but as with dogs, human families count as groups. > I'd like some birds but so would the cats!!!! I'd like ducks or chickens if I had the room I'd love ducks, but my garden obviously isn't appealing to them. I visit the ducks, coots and geese on the lake at work quite often. >I had a pigeon friend for a few weeks while he was recuperating I loved the way he trusted me . Once he got better he flew > further away each day till he didn't come back He was definitely saying good bye Angie I've heard before that pigeons do that - it must be their way of preparing you for separation. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.306 / Virus Database: 166 - Release 04/12/01To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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