Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 it's a blanket statement, because, how can ya proof someone is vegan? they just figure its safer, ya lived in britain or were there fer awhile, lets just play it safe... most folks here in the states disbelieve that BSE will ever come here(fools), so its almost surreal that the red cross but the ban up in the first place there is no test fer BSE or CJD, unless yer already dead, as far as i know, so, you can't even check the blood " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >The American Blood Transfusion people just think we all have mad cow disease >if we live or have lived in the UK, even if we are vegans! It's like those >people who think all gays have AIDS, pure bigotry and prejudice. >They are very confused (not all Americans are like this by any means >obviously, but those who make the decisions about blood). It's scary the >idiots who make important decisions like this, which cost lives if they >can't get enough blood. I'm going to give blood again as soon as I am >allowed to (the rules say you have to wait a year after having a baby). > >Lesley > > > Angie Wright [angiewright] > 23 February 2002 23:51 > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > How frightening I' ve lived in Britain for the last 15 years . ! > Whats going to happen to me ? > > Does that mean I shouldn't give blood either -nor any of my work >colleagues > ? The blood transfusion service is coming to our place of work next Wed. > Shall I tell them not to bother ?????? > Angie > > - > " Peter " <Snowbow > > Saturday, February 23, 2002 10:13 AM > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > Hi Emie > > > > > > I believe you also can't give blood in America if you've spent more than >1 > > month in Britain during the last 15 years!!!! > > > > BB > > Peter > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > > > > > > > To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 oh, a lot of folks know and they get all disgusted..and maybe a few of em thing and then the american mindset kicks in , and they run to see whats on springer...we have the attention span of gnats over hear it comes up once i n awhile on the news, downer cows and such, but, we have a hugely powerful and influencial meat industry here, and it quickly gets buried in " got milk? " ads and happy cows.... you get sued here in you defame the meat and dairy industry... and, look who is in the white house fraggle " Angie Wright " <angiewright wrote: >You'll have to tell them !!! > >Angie > > - > Janey > > Sunday, February 24, 2002 2:35 PM > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > I have American friends who visit the UK every year, but refuse to eat meat over here because of Mad Cow, BSE etc. But if knew the conditions of the slaughterhouses in their own country, I bet they wouldn't eat meat there either! > > Janey > x > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 Fraggle I'm off work this week and watched a Jerry Springer show! It is appauling. Everyone was shouting and selfish - and supposedly living out their private life in front of the tv cameras and a shouting rowdy audience. Twas like I imagine hell would be (if I believed in hell). How can anyone watch it more than once? Jo > oh, a lot of folks know > and they get all disgusted..and maybe a few of em thing > and then the american mindset kicks in , and they run to see whats on springer...we have the attention span of gnats over hear --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 Hi Jo, now you know why I don't watch TV at all. My wife watches occasionally in the living room, but I'll be either reading a book or I'm upstairs working on my computer. All TV does is destroy your mind. I would rather exercise my mind with a good book or something else that gets me to think, like reading all my interesting emails .... (-: In Health .... Werner. > > I'm off work this week and watched a Jerry Springer show! It is appauling. > Everyone was shouting and selfish - and supposedly living out their private > life in front of the tv cameras and a shouting rowdy audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 I reckon half of the stuff on Jerry Springer is made up anyway. Actors and stuff. Its ridiculous. Especially as they always expect a *punch up* to happen. I stopped watching it a long time ago. Utter c**p! Janey x - " Werner " <mejda6 Tuesday, February 26, 2002 10:49 AM Re: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > Hi Jo, > now you know why I don't watch TV at all. My wife watches occasionally in > the living room, but I'll be either reading a book or I'm upstairs working > on my computer. All TV does is destroy your mind. I would rather exercise > my mind with a good book or something else that gets me to think, like > reading all my interesting emails .... (-: > In Health .... Werner. > > > > > > > I'm off work this week and watched a Jerry Springer show! It is > appauling. > > Everyone was shouting and selfish - and supposedly living out their > private > > life in front of the tv cameras and a shouting rowdy audience. > > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 26, 2002 Report Share Posted February 26, 2002 my partner actually luvs all that trash TV... *sigh* wot can one do eh? i've had friends who been on springer, rickie lake, etc..made up stories so they could get a free flight to NYC, chicago, etc " Jo " <Heartwork wrote: >Fraggle > >I'm off work this week and watched a Jerry Springer show! It is appauling. >Everyone was shouting and selfish - and supposedly living out their private >life in front of the tv cameras and a shouting rowdy audience. > >Twas like I imagine hell would be (if I believed in hell). > >How can anyone watch it more than once? > >Jo > > >> oh, a lot of folks know >> and they get all disgusted..and maybe a few of em thing >> and then the american mindset kicks in , and they run to see whats on >springer...we have the attention span of gnats over hear > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 well Jo, i hate metal..but..i'd have a conversation with ya!!! wanna go garden? shall i send you lovecraft books?? cheers fraggle " Jo " <Heartwork wrote: >Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it took a long time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other things to even think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way it was. When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook delicious veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic cook. I never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views on people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months after that her partner turned veggie as well. > >I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work ..... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them. > >Jo > >-- > " All truth passes through 3 stages. > First, it is ridiculed. > Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " > - Arthur Schopenhauer > > - > Lesley Dove > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan. > I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally. > As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online! > > Lesley > > Jo [Heartwork] > 28 February 2002 12:04 > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > Lesley > > I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them. > > The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death. > > We don't have to be perfect to do some good. > > Jo > > -- > " All truth passes through 3 stages. > First, it is ridiculed. > Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " > - Arthur Schopenhauer > > - > Lesley Dove > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering. > > It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life. > > I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world. > > I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering. > > We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions. > > I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving. > > Lesley > > > shelloid [shelloid] > 27 February 2002 16:00 > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life. > > I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep > > animal eaters alive . > > Convince me someone > > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 Wot's lovecraft? Sounds like it should be something like the Kama Sutra... I hate heavy metal....especially lead....it's quite poisonous apparently.. Lesley EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]28 February 2002 16:56 Subject: RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be truewell Jo, i hate metal..but..i'd have a conversation with ya!!!:)wanna go garden?shall i send you lovecraft books??cheersfraggle"Jo" <Heartwork wrote:>Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it took a long time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other things to even think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way it was. When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook delicious veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic cook. I never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views on people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months after that her partner turned veggie as well.>>I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore friends I have fun things in common with them.>>Jo>>-->"All truth passes through 3 stages.> First, it is ridiculed.> Second, it is violently opposed.> Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."> - Arthur Schopenhauer>> -> Lesley Dove> > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM> RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true>>> You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually raised veggie or vegan.> I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very locally.> As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory (ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only thanks to him I can be online!>> Lesley> > Jo [Heartwork]> 28 February 2002 12:04> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true>>> Lesley>> I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on them.>> The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more death.>> We don't have to be perfect to do some good.>> Jo>> --> "All truth passes through 3 stages.> First, it is ridiculed.> Second, it is violently opposed.> Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."> - Arthur Schopenhauer>> -> Lesley Dove> > Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM> RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true>>>> But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering.>> It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life.>> I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world.>> I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall suffering.>> We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals (human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make utilitarian decisions.>> I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you are saving.>> Lesley>> > shelloid [shelloid]> 27 February 2002 16:00> > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true>>> so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to me it's about saving any life.> > I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep> > animal eaters alive .> > Convince me someone>>>> To send an email to - >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 they wouldn't eat it because it was vegan? did you offer to stick it in a cage fer awhile, and make it suffer? maybe they were missing that part of it... fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: >I'd still find it hard if they refused to even try a vegan cake I had made, >if I knew it tasted fine, but they refused just because it was vegan. >I know what you mean about being too busy to think about issues and make a >lifestyle change at certain times in your life! The people I most admire who >go veggie/vegan are those who make the transition with their families when >they have two or three young children. That is amazing, and these are the >people we must support and encourage the most, hence my belief in the >importance of vegan groups being family-friendly and if they are fairly big >they should be able to provide creches when they have meetings with speakers >so that open-minded omnis with young families can easily attend. > >I was quite upset when my friends as well as family in my teenage years did >not grow with me, I suppose I expected them to suddenly see the light as I >had, and that they would agree with me once I explained it. > >Lesley > > > Jo [Heartwork] > 28 February 2002 15:06 > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it took a long >time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other things to even >think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way it was. >When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook delicious >veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic cook. I >never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views on >people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months after >that her partner turned veggie as well. > > I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at >work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal >is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. >She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about >the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore >friends I have fun things in common with them. > > Jo > > -- > " All truth passes through 3 stages. > First, it is ridiculed. > Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " > - Arthur Schopenhauer > > - > Lesley Dove > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have a >lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in >raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually >raised veggie or vegan. > I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and >vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have >always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is >hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very >locally. > As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not >really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in >denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory >(ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant >that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I >could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I >was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is >a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only >thanks to him I can be online! > > Lesley > > Jo [Heartwork] > 28 February 2002 12:04 > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > Lesley > > I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with >feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of >us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still >an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if >they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on >them. > > The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the >lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more >death. > > We don't have to be perfect to do some good. > > Jo > > -- > " All truth passes through 3 stages. > First, it is ridiculed. > Second, it is violently opposed. > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " > - Arthur Schopenhauer > > - > Lesley Dove > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are >condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a >utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how >to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering. > > It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out >that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more >babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life >because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe >humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life. > > I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter too >recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the possible >inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world. > > I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live longer >and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would live >longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for her to >go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still want her >to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing less overall >suffering. > > We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals >(human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes >with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make >utilitarian decisions. > > I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict >accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you >never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you >are saving. > > Lesley > > > shelloid [shelloid] > 27 February 2002 16:00 > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be >able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to >me it's about saving any life. > > I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart >operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep > > animal eaters alive . > > Convince me someone > > > > To send an email to >- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 HP Lovecraft..american horror writer from the 1920's into the early 30's responsible for what has come to be known as the Cthulhu Mythos stories...basically godlike beings from another universe/dimension wotever that came to earth eons ago, and will return " when the stars are right " very dark tales he influenced everyone from steven king to clive barker to robert bloch etc. fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: >Wot's lovecraft? Sounds like it should be something like the Kama Sutra... > >I hate heavy metal....especially lead....it's quite poisonous apparently.. > >Lesley > > > EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx] > 28 February 2002 16:56 > > RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > well Jo, i hate metal..but..i'd have a conversation with ya!!! > > wanna go garden? > shall i send you lovecraft books?? > cheers > fraggle > > > > " Jo " <Heartwork wrote: > > >Thanks Lesley. I think we all grew together. The reason it took a long >time to turn veggie was because we were too busy doing other things to even >think about it. I can't understand how now - but that's the way it was. >When we turned veggie my daughter was very pleased to cook delicious >veggie/vegan meals for us when we visited her. She is a fantastic cook. I >never tried to urge her to become veggie - I hate forcing my views on >people, but then one day she said she was veggie, and three months after >that her partner turned veggie as well. > > > >I would have no friends if I waited for only vegans. I know one vegan at >work .... but she likes Britney Spears and doesn't know what heavy metal >is, and is a Christian and doesn't have anything in common with my Paganism. >She doesn't like gardening or Sci Fi so when we've finished talking about >the weather - there's nothing left to say. At least with my omnivore >friends I have fun things in common with them. > > > >Jo > > > >-- > > " All truth passes through 3 stages. > > First, it is ridiculed. > > Second, it is violently opposed. > > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " > > - Arthur Schopenhauer > > > > - > > Lesley Dove > > > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:50 PM > > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > > > You have done great that both your kids went veggie or vegan, you have >a lot to be proud of there. There must have been something you did right in >raising them with compassionate values, even though they were not actually >raised veggie or vegan. > > I couldn't feel as close to omnivores as I could to vegetarians and >vegans personally, so of course ever since becoming veggie then vegan I have >always sought out like-minded friends as a high priority in life - that is >hard when you have young kids and don't drive and have to seek them out very >locally. > > As a teenager I felt I could not stay friends with my best friend, not >really cos of her eating meat, as I could delude myself that she was in >denial until she got engaged to a man who worked in Winsford Bacon factory >(ie slaughterhouse)! That was too much for me to deal with. I felt it meant >that she knew the full horror of slaughter and still did not care, and I >could not have anything to do with him of course! I sometimes wonder if I >was wrong to assume that she knew anything about his job, since my hubby is >a programmer and yet I don't understand anything about computers, it's only >thanks to him I can be online! > > > > Lesley > > > > Jo [Heartwork] > > 28 February 2002 12:04 > > > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > > > Lesley > > > > I agree that our love for our family and friends is inconsistent with >feelings on veganism. My daughter was an omnivore longer than the rest of >us, but I still loved her just the same, and I would now if she were still >an omnivore. All of my friends are omnivores, and while it would be nice if >they were vegan, they are still my friends and I would not wish harm on >them. > > > > The other point is one that Graham (?) pointed out. We help save the >lives of cats, and they kill other animals - so maybe that is causing more >death. > > > > We don't have to be perfect to do some good. > > > > Jo > > > > -- > > " All truth passes through 3 stages. > > First, it is ridiculed. > > Second, it is violently opposed. > > Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. " > > - Arthur Schopenhauer > > > > - > > Lesley Dove > > > > Thursday, February 28, 2002 10:19 AM > > RE: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > > > > > But there is the argument that by saving a meat-eater's life we are >condemning many animals to death, that is why I can understand that from a >utilitarian viewpoint it is a difficult issue for vegans. Thyis is about how >to cause the greatest overall happiness and the least overall suffering. > > > > It's like my viewpoint on abortion, some vegans have pointed out >that by being pro-life and wanting to save babies from abortion, the more >babies live the more animals die to feed them, but I'm still pro-life >because I am not a utilitarian and I value human life too, and I believe >humans have a potential for good and should all get a chance at life. > > > > I will still give blood (when I am allowed to, I had my daughter >too recently to be allowed to give blood yet) while being aware of the >possible inconsistency with wanting to create a more vegan world. > > > > I really want my mother to quit smoking so that she will live >longer and be less likely to die of cancer, but that would mean she would >live longer and eat more animals, so I would say that I want even more for >her to go veggie or vegan, but even if she doesn't change her diet I still >want her to stop smoking, and that is probably inconsistent with causing >less overall suffering. > > > > We most of us have particular attachments to particular individuals >(human and animal), and this makes us less able to be consistent sometimes >with hoping for what is most vegan, and makes us less likely to make >utilitarian decisions. > > > > I think utilitarianism is difficult because we can't always predict >accurately what will cause the least harm and the most happiness, and you >never know the person you save might convert anyway. You never know who you >are saving. > > > > Lesley > > > > > > shelloid [shelloid] > > 27 February 2002 16:00 > > > > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > > > > so you would rather condemn someone to death. IMO I wouldn't be >able not to give blood just because a meateater may benefit.............to >me it's about saving any life. > > > I still have to repay what my son needed for his heart >operation , but after that I don't know I don't feel I should help to keep > > > animal eaters alive . > > > Convince me someone > > > > > > > > To send an email to >- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 Hi Fraggle > HP Lovecraft.. > he influenced everyone from steven king to clive barker to robert bloch etc. Don't forget Metallica :-) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 and rudimentari peni " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi Fraggle > >> HP Lovecraft.. >> he influenced everyone from steven king to clive barker to robert bloch >etc. > >Don't forget Metallica :-) > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 According to http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/More%20Celebrity's.htm#Clive%20Barker On behalf of PETA, horror icon Clive Barker wrote a letter to the editors of the top 100 U.S. newspapers, asking them to "put hunting and fishing columns where they belong: on the obituary pages." - PeTA's Annual 1997 Media in Review essay. Clive Barker is listed as a vegetarIan celebrity, I always found that weird that a horror writer was vegetarian, but then when I did see one of the Hellraiser films it didn't scare me, in fact Pinhead made me laugh because the whole thing was so outlandish. I can't take horror seriously. Was I the only person who didn't find the Exorcist scary, just funny because it was so silly, the bits where she was spewing up pea soup and having her head spin round? It was supposed to be scary, but something that cannot be real is not scary to me. I found Jaws much more scary than outlandish sort of horror, as it could really happen, and I would not even paddle in the sea for three or four summers after seeing that film! Lesley Peter [snowbow]01 March 2002 16:01 Subject: Re: RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be trueHi Fraggle> HP Lovecraft..> he influenced everyone from steven king to clive barker to robert blochetc.Don't forget Metallica :-)BBPeter---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 i saw exorcist at the drive in when it first came out scarred the fur off of me *shudder* saw it again when it was rereleased 2 yrs ago, and it was so dated and silly...tho..it still makes me twinch fraggle " Lesley Dove " <Lesley wrote: > >According to >http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/More%20Celebrity's.htm#Clive%20B >arker > >On behalf of PETA, horror icon Clive Barker wrote a letter to the editors of >the top 100 U.S. newspapers, asking them to " put hunting and fishing columns >where they belong: on the obituary pages. " - PeTA's Annual 1997 Media in >Review essay. > >Clive Barker is listed as a vegetarIan celebrity, I always found that weird >that a horror writer was vegetarian, but then when I did see one of the >Hellraiser films it didn't scare me, in fact Pinhead made me laugh because >the whole thing was so outlandish. I can't take horror seriously. >Was I the only person who didn't find the Exorcist scary, just funny because >it was so silly, the bits where she was spewing up pea soup and having her >head spin round? It was supposed to be scary, but something that cannot be >real is not scary to me. I found Jaws much more scary than outlandish sort >of horror, as it could really happen, and I would not even paddle in the sea >for three or four summers after seeing that film! > >Lesley > > > Peter [snowbow] > 01 March 2002 16:01 > > Re: RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > Hi Fraggle > > > HP Lovecraft.. > > he influenced everyone from steven king to clive barker to robert bloch > etc. > > Don't forget Metallica :-) > > BB > Peter > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 .... and various heavy metal lyrics. Jo > HP Lovecraft..american horror writer from the 1920's into the early 30's > responsible for what has come to be known as the Cthulhu Mythos stories...basically godlike beings from another universe/dimension wotever that came to earth eons ago, and will return " when the stars are right " > very dark tales > he influenced everyone from steven king to clive barker to robert bloch etc. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 Hi Lesley I haven't watched many of the real horrors. I'm not too keen on blood and gore, but I enjoy ghosty stories. Jo Clive Barker is listed as a vegetarIan celebrity, I always found that weird that a horror writer was vegetarian, but then when I did see one of the Hellraiser films it didn't scare me, in fact Pinhead made me laugh because the whole thing was so outlandish. I can't take horror seriously. Was I the only person who didn't find the Exorcist scary, just funny because it was so silly, the bits where she was spewing up pea soup and having her head spin round? It was supposed to be scary, but something that cannot be real is not scary to me. I found Jaws much more scary than outlandish sort of horror, as it could really happen, and I would not even paddle in the sea for three or four summers after seeing that film! ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2002 Report Share Posted March 1, 2002 wiccan is more or less a type of paganism..tho, they are not exactly synomous.. pagan covers everything from druidism to bacchus worship..wicca is more magic orientated, earthmother , and her male consort etc(depending on the style of wicca) fraggle " Angie Wright " <angiewright wrote: >I would be interested in knowing more about paganism . One of our veg/vegan social group members is a wiccan. Its the same thing isn't it ? Is there a website . ? I searched once but kept finding foreign stuff > >Angie > - > Jo > > Friday, March 01, 2002 8:39 PM > Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Clive Barker writes fantasy too, Weaveworld being, to my mind, his best. Long time since I read it tho and can't find it at the mo but I read it originally cos it was loosely Liverpool based. Keep hoping to find a sci-fi fantasy novel where the characters are at least vegetarian but am still looking. At least the main character in the book I just finished was a vegetarian... And in Voyager last night Janeway said something about humans deciding years ago that it was unethical to use other species for gain. Much more of this please! Am in mortal pain here - having to tape the Carpenters for a friend and I can't do it with the volume off (aaaargh!, goD take my ears away!!!)... Cheers Viv "You'll Never Walk Alone with a Basenji" www.veganvillage.co.uk www.vegansociety.com http://VEGAN-info.com/index.htm Lesley Dove [Lesley]Friday, March 01, 2002 5:39 PM Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true According to http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/More%20Celebrity's.htm#Clive%20Barker On behalf of PETA, horror icon Clive Barker wrote a letter to the editors of the top 100 U.S. newspapers, asking them to "put hunting and fishing columns where they belong: on the obituary pages." - PeTA's Annual 1997 Media in Review essay. Clive Barker is listed as a vegetarIan celebrity, I always found that weird that a horror writer was vegetarian, but then when I did see one of the Hellraiser films it didn't scare me, in fact Pinhead made me laugh because the whole thing was so outlandish. I can't take horror seriously. ......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Thanks Fraggle - <EBbrewpunx Friday, March 01, 2002 11:29 PM RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > pagan covers everything from druidism to bacchus worship..wicca is more magic orientated, earthmother , and her male consort etc(depending on the style of wicca) > > fraggle > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Viv <Viv wrote: > goD take my ears away!!!)... What a wonderful turn of phrase .... I can imagine it right now .. Thanks Viv, that gave me a right good chuckle :-) Joeann Get personalised at My . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 2, 2002 Report Share Posted March 2, 2002 Yup, hammering and sawing doesn't sound too pleasant... Lesley Viv [Viv]02 March 2002 09:21 Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true Clive Barker writes fantasy too, Weaveworld being, to my mind, his best. Long time since I read it tho and can't find it at the mo but I read it originally cos it was loosely Liverpool based. Keep hoping to find a sci-fi fantasy novel where the characters are at least vegetarian but am still looking. At least the main character in the book I just finished was a vegetarian... And in Voyager last night Janeway said something about humans deciding years ago that it was unethical to use other species for gain. Much more of this please! Am in mortal pain here - having to tape the Carpenters for a friend and I can't do it with the volume off (aaaargh!, goD take my ears away!!!)... Cheers Viv "You'll Never Walk Alone with a Basenji" www.veganvillage.co.uk www.vegansociety.com http://VEGAN-info.com/index.htm Lesley Dove [Lesley]Friday, March 01, 2002 5:39 PM Subject: RE: RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true According to http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/More%20Celebrity's.htm#Clive%20Barker On behalf of PETA, horror icon Clive Barker wrote a letter to the editors of the top 100 U.S. newspapers, asking them to "put hunting and fishing columns where they belong: on the obituary pages." - PeTA's Annual 1997 Media in Review essay. Clive Barker is listed as a vegetarIan celebrity, I always found that weird that a horror writer was vegetarian, but then when I did see one of the Hellraiser films it didn't scare me, in fact Pinhead made me laugh because the whole thing was so outlandish. I can't take horror seriously. ......... To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 yer just making my arguments stronger!!! hahahahaha " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi Fraggle > >> it is my esteemed position that all bands should quit after a said number >of >> years..... >> 3 or 4 yrs and bands seem to start going to sh*t.... > >Not all - Judas Priest have been going for 33 years, and just keep getting >better! Ronnie Dio has been recording for 44 years and is still going strong >:-) > >> peter and chris just got upset because metallica cut their hair.... > >Oooooh - the slander :-) > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > > >To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Hey Fraggle - it's just as well you're more than an arms length away (only joking). Jo RE: Re: Re: off topic...this can't be true > yer just making my arguments stronger!!! > hahahahaha > > > " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: > > >Hi Fraggle > > > >> it is my esteemed position that all bands should quit after a said number > >of > >> years..... > >> 3 or 4 yrs and bands seem to start going to sh*t.... > > > >Not all - Judas Priest have been going for 33 years, and just keep getting > >better! Ronnie Dio has been recording for 44 years and is still going strong > >:-) > > > >> peter and chris just got upset because metallica cut their hair.... > > > >Oooooh - the slander :-) > > > >BB > >Peter > > > > > >--- > >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > > > > > > >To send an email to - > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 i think i had a napalm death album once...maybe listened to it all of 1/2 a time......not fraggle friendly at all and, wot would be wrong with having napalm death play yer living room? sounds cozy " Jo " <Heartwork wrote: >Chris > >> despite not having Rob Halford.....???? Better? No. Still good? Yes. >> Ripper Owens has definitely got what it takes..just saw em a few >> weeks ago. The new album is hot too. > >Well their music is better (heavier, you know). Of course they couldn't >improve on Rob but Ripper is just as good. I'm quite pleased anyway, cos we >still have a brilliant Judas Priest, and we also have a brilliant Halford >band. >> >> > - Dio is still good, >> >> haha,hes still around? > >Cheeky! He is - and he's been rather heavy over the last few albums. >> >> >Testament seem to improve, >> >> thats not saying much...I never liked them until " Low " >> and " Demonic " ,thast wehn they grew some balls and started playing >> real heavy,instead of being metallica-lite. > >I love Low, but I like all their old stuff as well because I've always loved >guitars, whether classical or metal. I must admit I haven't played their >old stuff for a while, but I seem to remember things like 'Into The Pit' >being somewhat heavy - and they were brilliant live. > >> Opeth >> > stay good, >> >> nott hat theyve been around forever like the other bands you >> mentioned,but theyre amazing regardless. > >but they have been around a lot longer than 4 or 5 years. I first saw them >about 6 years ago, maybe more, and I think they had two albums out then. >> >> >Napalm Death have improved over the years. >> >> true and not true..the first 2 full lengths were just whirlwind >> grind.Then Harmony Corruption and Death By Manipulation were without >> a doubt their best work. But theyre still good,and still plugging >> after all these years. Plus at least one of them is vegan! > >I prefer their new stuff - I think Diatribes is my favourite. I know Barney >is veggie, and teetotal. I entered a competition on TotalRock last year. >The prize was to have Napalm Death play in your living room. You should >have seen Colin's face when I told him - he almost panicked. It would have >been fun though. > >Back to Metallica, what is Jason doing now? > >Jo >> >> > I must admit that I thought they looked like twits when they >> changed their >> > style, but then they were never good-looking anyway. I liked their >> music up >> > until the black album. Load and Reload and whatever has come since >> are not >> > up to the same standard. >> > >> > Jo >> >> Understatemnt of the decade..after " And Justice For All " (their last >> good record),they might as well all have died in a bus crash. Cliff >> must be rolling over in his grave hearing the slop theyve been >> releasing for the past 10 years. >> >> Chris X >> >> >> >> To send an email to - >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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