Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 I currently have 2 dogs that live with me, both are Vegan, both are also very old and very blind. In the wild they would have died long ago. With that said however there existance is the fault of humanity. Wild Shi tzu's and poodle's do not roam the plains, humanity created them. Nature has a balance she seems to enjoy, neither cruel or kind just practical. Lions and other carnivors are here to maintain balance. If we had not created projectile weapons they would keep us in check as well. We have killed off most of the large preditors in the " civilized " world so that we can farm domestic animals to kill them, hunt outside our station, keep our waste in the groud, or keep our pomeranians safe in the back yard.. In a naturally balance world mankind is prey. Is the consumption of Flesh wrong for Homosapien...Yes. Would I consider purchasing death for those creatures that exist under my roof? hell no. But as for the polar bear, lion, wolf, and other creatures that can eat me, I will leave them to their own insticts. Small correction, outside of dogs and cats most animals live shortened lives in captivity Paul , " Simon pJones " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > Graham, > Yes the idea of animals living together in peace is an old idea which ancient prophets predicted, It would be differicult to expect all living organisms to be vegan, but not impossible for larger animals such as lions, wild dogs etc, for who can really say which animals can be domesticated and which can't, in the past surely all animals were considered wild, > then humans chose to farm and domesticate certain animals for different reasons,the point I'm making is, if domesticated cats and dogs can be veganized why not other animals. Not forgetting two important points:a. Domesticated animals ,( I have heard for different sources) live longer than they would if in the wild, sometimes they life spans being twice as long domesticated,and secondly animals build nature boundaries and herd together some in great numbers for safety reasons, if that danger was taken away from those animals would not procreate in the way they do today, we would not be over run with animals if they were monitored, Last point if you saw a dom; cat or a dom;dog for instants, attacking a goat or lamb or some other animal would you not stop it from doing so, so why let their relatives do so! > Sp, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 , " Simon pJones " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > Graham, > Yes the idea of animals living together in peace is an old idea which ancient prophets predicted, It would be differicult to expect all living organisms to be vegan, but not impossible for larger animals such as lions, wild dogs etc, for who can really say which animals can be domesticated and which can't, in the past surely all animals were considered wild, Hi simon- I think that you are anthropomorising animals, you are attempting to look at animal behaviour within the context of very human constructs- my view of veganism is that at it's core it's a compassionate response to the denaturalisation of our relationships with other animals with which we share this small planet... Our 'human' (capitalist/post capitalist?) view leads us to treating our fellow species as commodities which we can use/abuse in much the same way as rocks, sacks of potatoes, etc... In my view life/gaia ia all about cycles, 'life' is actually a complex web of interconnections between a highly complex matrix of organisms which occupy many and varied niches. 'Life' is a constant cycle of energy transformation between birth, life, growth, death, decay and rebirth. Matter and energy is constantly changing state and form... everything has it's part to play and is essential in the order of things... The lion that eats the zebra does not consider itself 'superior' to that zebra, just as the zebra does not consider itself 'superior' to the grass that it grazes. When the lion or zebra dies or shits, do the worms, bacteria and insects which break down those bodily 'wastes' into soil, humus and nutrients consider themselves 'superior' to the zebra? Does the plant which absorbs those nutrients consider itself 'superior' before it too is devoured by the next generation of zebras??? Why not come over to the eco vegans list and we can debate this stuff in depth??? eco_vegans- Cheers graham www.landandliberty.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 I think anthropomorphising animals is more accurate than treating them like commodities. I have always believed it to be animal abusers who coined the word " anthropomorphic " in order to keep us from believing they could suffer like we do . hence vivisection/caging them etc . I'd prefer to be anthropomorphiic any day than the opposite ----except with Hunters/vivisectors etc I have always considered then to be a dangerous sor t of alien machine --akin to the devil !!!! - " quercusrobur2002 " <grahamburnett Thursday, February 28, 2002 12:51 AM Re: vegananimals > , " Simon pJones " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > Hi simon- I think that you are anthropomorising animals, you are > attempting to look at animal behaviour within the context of very > human constructs- my view of veganism is that at it's core it's a > compassionate response to the denaturalisation of our relationships > > Our 'human' (capitalist/post capitalist?) view leads us to treating > our fellow species as commodities which we can use/abuse in much the > same way as rocks, sacks of potatoes, etc... > > > http://us.click./BgmYkB/VovDAA/ySSFAA/PVjolB/TM > ---~-> > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 > Small correction, outside of dogs and cats most animals live > shortened lives in captivity Except budgies - who live approximately two years in the wild and between 7 and 14 years domesticated. Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 Animals other than humans do already befriend and care for those of other species, it amazed me once, when my mum took in some rescued kittens, her dog Judy allowed them to suckle for comfort and she started producing a little bit of milk! So why shouldn't the ancient prophecy become true? It might well happen after more centuries of evolution. I would like to have faith in a more vegan world in the future. Lesley Simon pJones [simonpjones]28 February 2002 15:18 Subject: vegananimals Graham, Yes the idea of animals living together in peace is an old idea which ancient prophets predicted, It would be differicult to expect all living organisms to be vegan, but not impossible for larger animals such as lions, wild dogs etc, for who can really say which animals can be domesticated and which can't, in the past surely all animals were considered wild, then humans chose to farm and domesticate certain animals for different reasons,the point I'm making is, if domesticated cats and dogs can be veganized why not other animals. Not forgetting two important points:a. Domesticated animals ,( I have heard for different sources) live longer than they would if in the wild, sometimes they life spans being twice as long domesticated,and secondly animals build nature boundaries and herd together some in great numbers for safety reasons, if that danger was taken away from those animals would not procreate in the way they do today, we would not be over run with animals if they were monitored, Last point if you saw a dom; cat or a dom;dog for instants, attacking a goat or lamb or some other animal would you not stop it from doing so, so why let their relatives do so! Sp,To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 28, 2002 Report Share Posted February 28, 2002 Graham, Yes the idea of animals living together in peace is an old idea which ancient prophets predicted, It would be differicult to expect all living organisms to be vegan, but not impossible for larger animals such as lions, wild dogs etc, for who can really say which animals can be domesticated and which can't, in the past surely all animals were considered wild, then humans chose to farm and domesticate certain animals for different reasons,the point I'm making is, if domesticated cats and dogs can be veganized why not other animals. Not forgetting two important points:a. Domesticated animals ,( I have heard for different sources) live longer than they would if in the wild, sometimes they life spans being twice as long domesticated,and secondly animals build nature boundaries and herd together some in great numbers for safety reasons, if that danger was taken away from those animals would not procreate in the way they do today, we would not be over run with animals if they were monitored, Last point if you saw a dom; cat or a dom;dog for instants, attacking a goat or lamb or some other animal would you not stop it from doing so, so why let their relatives do so! Sp, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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