commodities or anthropomorphised? Digest Number 251

[Guest guest]

Graham

 

I have probably missed the point of your post, but as far as I can see

animals are a lot like me. They try hard to survive, they love and nurture

their offspring, they like as much comfort as they can get. I believe that

we are very similar to other animals. The half of the world (or is it more)

that believe in reincarnation believe that we live some times as animals,

sometimes as humans.

 

Personally, I think most animals are dirty, smelly creatures, but that does

not detract from their rights to a good, comfortable life.

 

Jo

 

 

> >I think anthropomorphising animals is more accurate than treating them

like

> commodities.

> I have always believed it to be animal abusers who coined the word

> " anthropomorphic " in order to keep us from believing they could suffer

like

> we do .

>

> I'm not arguing that animals should be treated as commodities- the exact

opposite

> in fact!

>

> But both the commodity aproach that animals are just 'things' for

peoplekind to do

> with as they please, or the anthropomorphic approach that they are 'like

us', ie,

> share our motivations, power to make choices, share our interests, etc are

equally

> inappropriate and a result of our alienated and denaturalised

relationships with

> the earth and it's non human inhabitants.

>

> It is a lion's intrinsic nature to be a lion, and to have the interests

and

> motivations of a lion.

>

> It is an e-coli bacteria's intrinsic nature to be an e-coli bacteria, and

behave

> like an e-coli bacteria

>

> Ascribing either with qualities that are based on human constructs, like

calling a

> lion 'wrong' for hunting and killing, or an e-coli bacteria 'evil' because

it makes

> people ill for example is attempting to impose a 'human-centric'

perspective on a

> creation which is in fact far wider and more complex than we could ever

hope to

> grasp, and that we, were we just a little more humble, would realise we

are only a

> tiny part of.

>

> Talk of attempting to convert lions to veganism and what have you is yet

again

> promoting the idea that peoplekind know best about how natural systems and

> ecologies 'should' work.

>

> Cheers

>

> Graham Burnett

> www.landandliberty.co.uk

> Now available-

> 'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide'

> also

> tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala'

> &

> 'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...'

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Jo " <Heartwork@b...> wrote:

> Graham

>

> I have probably missed the point of your post,

 

I think perhaps you have, Jo.

 

but as far as I can see

> animals are a lot like me. They try hard to survive, they love and

nurture

> their offspring, they like as much comfort as they can get.

 

granted, but in many ways they are very unlike you or I, and have

their own natures, in the case of either the lion or the e-coli

bacteria, they have their own intrinsic 'lion-ness' or 'e-coli-ness'.

 

Simon is aguing for 'a vegan world' which would encompass at least

the 'higher' animals of creation, eg, lions (though as I've argued

elsewhere, I personally think the whole concept of 'higher'

or 'lower' animlas is flawed). I would argue that the idea of 'a

vegan world' is very much extracted from HUMAN concepts and

perceptions (such as 'cruelty', which would be meanignless to any

creature but humans- a lion is incapable of being 'cruel', it just

does what lions do), and that in fact the world is a far more complex

place than can be understood or shoehorned within merely human terms.

 

> Personally, I think most animals are dirty, smelly creatures, but

that does

> not detract from their rights to a good, comfortable life.

 

That isn't what I am arguing against at all. within the context of

this discussion I'm saying that as far as possible we leave animals

alone to live as they live, and forget ideas like trying to bring

about a 'vegan world' by converting lions to veganism!!!

 

Is that any clearer? Bit rushed as Father ted is on in a minute...

 

Cheers, Graham

 

 

 

>

> Jo

>

>

> > >I think anthropomorphising animals is more accurate than

treating them

> like

> > commodities.

> > I have always believed it to be animal abusers who coined the word

> > " anthropomorphic " in order to keep us from believing they could

suffer

> like

> > we do .

> >

> > I'm not arguing that animals should be treated as commodities-

the exact

> opposite

> > in fact!

> >

> > But both the commodity aproach that animals are just 'things' for

> peoplekind to do

> > with as they please, or the anthropomorphic approach that they

are 'like

> us', ie,

> > share our motivations, power to make choices, share our

interests, etc are

> equally

> > inappropriate and a result of our alienated and denaturalised

> relationships with

> > the earth and it's non human inhabitants.

> >

> > It is a lion's intrinsic nature to be a lion, and to have the

interests

> and

> > motivations of a lion.

> >

> > It is an e-coli bacteria's intrinsic nature to be an e-coli

bacteria, and

> behave

> > like an e-coli bacteria

> >

> > Ascribing either with qualities that are based on human

constructs, like

> calling a

> > lion 'wrong' for hunting and killing, or an e-coli

bacteria 'evil' because

> it makes

> > people ill for example is attempting to impose a 'human-centric'

> perspective on a

> > creation which is in fact far wider and more complex than we

could ever

> hope to

> > grasp, and that we, were we just a little more humble, would

realise we

> are only a

> > tiny part of.

> >

> > Talk of attempting to convert lions to veganism and what have you

is yet

> again

> > promoting the idea that peoplekind know best about how natural

systems and

> > ecologies 'should' work.

> >

> > Cheers

> >

> > Graham Burnett

> > www.landandliberty.co.uk

> > Now available-

> > 'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide'

> > also

> > tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala'

> > &

> > 'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...'

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > To send an email to -

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

i find most people even dirtier and smellier!

 

 

" Jo " <Heartwork wrote:

 

>Graham

>

>I have probably missed the point of your post, but as far as I can see

>animals are a lot like me. They try hard to survive, they love and nurture

>their offspring, they like as much comfort as they can get. I believe that

>we are very similar to other animals. The half of the world (or is it more)

>that believe in reincarnation believe that we live some times as animals,

>sometimes as humans.

>

>Personally, I think most animals are dirty, smelly creatures, but that does

>not detract from their rights to a good, comfortable life.

>

>Jo

>

>

>> >I think anthropomorphising animals is more accurate than treating them

>like

>> commodities.

>> I have always believed it to be animal abusers who coined the word

>> " anthropomorphic " in order to keep us from believing they could suffer

>like

>> we do .

>>

>> I'm not arguing that animals should be treated as commodities- the exact

>opposite

>> in fact!

>>

>> But both the commodity aproach that animals are just 'things' for

>peoplekind to do

>> with as they please, or the anthropomorphic approach that they are 'like

>us', ie,

>> share our motivations, power to make choices, share our interests, etc are

>equally

>> inappropriate and a result of our alienated and denaturalised

>relationships with

>> the earth and it's non human inhabitants.

>>

>> It is a lion's intrinsic nature to be a lion, and to have the interests

>and

>> motivations of a lion.

>>

>> It is an e-coli bacteria's intrinsic nature to be an e-coli bacteria, and

>behave

>> like an e-coli bacteria

>>

>> Ascribing either with qualities that are based on human constructs, like

>calling a

>> lion 'wrong' for hunting and killing, or an e-coli bacteria 'evil' because

>it makes

>> people ill for example is attempting to impose a 'human-centric'

>perspective on a

>> creation which is in fact far wider and more complex than we could ever

>hope to

>> grasp, and that we, were we just a little more humble, would realise we

>are only a

>> tiny part of.

>>

>> Talk of attempting to convert lions to veganism and what have you is yet

>again

>> promoting the idea that peoplekind know best about how natural systems and

>> ecologies 'should' work.

>>

>> Cheers

>>

>> Graham Burnett

>> www.landandliberty.co.uk

>> Now available-

>> 'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide'

>> also

>> tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala'

>> &

>> 'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...'

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> To send an email to -

>>

>>

[Guest guest]

Most people eat rotting flesh, so what do you expect them to smell like?

 

Do vegans have different body odours from animal eaters do you think?

 

I ask this because one of the forms the workplace harassment took when I was being bullied in nursing was someone telling me I was smelly - this was impossible as I was always bathing. I reckon I just smelled different for not eating animals!

 

Could this have been why I was singled out as smelly?

I very rarely used perfume or deodorant though, because if you are clean that should not be needed.

I think most people can't cope with people smelling normal!

 

Lesley

 

 

EBbrewpunx [EBbrewpunx]01 March 2002 22:45 Subject: RE: Re: commodities or anthropomorphised? Re: Digest Number 251i find most people even dirtier and smellier!:)"Jo" <Heartwork wrote:>Graham>>I have probably missed the point of your post, but as far as I can see>animals are a lot like me. They try hard to survive, they love and nurture>their offspring, they like as much comfort as they can get. I believe that>we are very similar to other animals. The half of the world (or is it more)>that believe in reincarnation believe that we live some times as animals,>sometimes as humans.>>Personally, I think most animals are dirty, smelly creatures, but that does>not detract from their rights to a good, comfortable life.>>Jo>>>> >I think anthropomorphising animals is more accurate than treating them>like>> commodities.>> I have always believed it to be animal abusers who coined the word>> "anthropomorphic " in order to keep us from believing they could suffer>like>> we do .>>>> I'm not arguing that animals should be treated as commodities- the exact>opposite>> in fact!>>>> But both the commodity aproach that animals are just 'things' for>peoplekind to do>> with as they please, or the anthropomorphic approach that they are 'like>us', ie,>> share our motivations, power to make choices, share our interests, etc are>equally>> inappropriate and a result of our alienated and denaturalised>relationships with>> the earth and it's non human inhabitants.>>>> It is a lion's intrinsic nature to be a lion, and to have the interests>and>> motivations of a lion.>>>> It is an e-coli bacteria's intrinsic nature to be an e-coli bacteria, and>behave>> like an e-coli bacteria>>>> Ascribing either with qualities that are based on human constructs, like>calling a>> lion 'wrong' for hunting and killing, or an e-coli bacteria 'evil' because>it makes>> people ill for example is attempting to impose a 'human-centric'>perspective on a>> creation which is in fact far wider and more complex than we could ever>hope to>> grasp, and that we, were we just a little more humble, would realise we>are only a>> tiny part of.>>>> Talk of attempting to convert lions to veganism and what have you is yet>again>> promoting the idea that peoplekind know best about how natural systems and>> ecologies 'should' work.>>>> Cheers>>>> Graham Burnett>> www.landandliberty.co.uk>> Now available->> 'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide'>> also>> tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala'>> & >> 'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...'>>>>>>>>>> To send an email to - >>>>

[Guest guest]

Perhaps it does depend on how often you wash and whether you use deodorant??? I permanently smell like a Lush shop now, but I get good comments about it. This is all thanks to Angie and her recommendation for Lush (and Karma!!!)

 

Janey

x

 

I ask this because one of the forms the workplace harassment took when I was being bullied in nursing was someone telling me I was smelly - this was impossible as I was always bathing. I reckon I just smelled different for not eating animals!

 

 

Could this have been why I was singled out as smelly?

I very rarely used perfume or deodorant though, because if you are clean that should not be needed.

I think most people can't cope with people smelling normal!

 

Lesley

[Guest guest]

Graham

 

> I would argue that the idea of 'a

> vegan world' is very much extracted from HUMAN concepts and

> perceptions (such as 'cruelty', which would be meanignless to any

> creature but humans- a lion is incapable of being 'cruel', it just

> does what lions do),

 

Agreed - but I think that also applies to the people who are cruel to

animals - they are doing what they do. I don't think it occurs to them that

they are being cruel anymore than it would to a lion.

 

> That isn't what I am arguing against at all. within the context of

> this discussion I'm saying that as far as possible we leave animals

> alone to live as they live, and forget ideas like trying to bring

> about a 'vegan world' by converting lions to veganism!!!

 

I agree with that.

>

> Is that any clearer? Bit rushed as Father ted is on in a minute...

 

It is. Damn, I missed Father Ted.

 

Jo

>

> Cheers, Graham

>

>

>

> >

> > Jo

> >

> >

> > > >I think anthropomorphising animals is more accurate than

> treating them

> > like

> > > commodities.

> > > I have always believed it to be animal abusers who coined the word

> > > " anthropomorphic " in order to keep us from believing they could

> suffer

> > like

> > > we do .

> > >

> > > I'm not arguing that animals should be treated as commodities-

> the exact

> > opposite

> > > in fact!

> > >

> > > But both the commodity aproach that animals are just 'things' for

> > peoplekind to do

> > > with as they please, or the anthropomorphic approach that they

> are 'like

> > us', ie,

> > > share our motivations, power to make choices, share our

> interests, etc are

> > equally

> > > inappropriate and a result of our alienated and denaturalised

> > relationships with

> > > the earth and it's non human inhabitants.

> > >

> > > It is a lion's intrinsic nature to be a lion, and to have the

> interests

> > and

> > > motivations of a lion.

> > >

> > > It is an e-coli bacteria's intrinsic nature to be an e-coli

> bacteria, and

> > behave

> > > like an e-coli bacteria

> > >

> > > Ascribing either with qualities that are based on human

> constructs, like

> > calling a

> > > lion 'wrong' for hunting and killing, or an e-coli

> bacteria 'evil' because

> > it makes

> > > people ill for example is attempting to impose a 'human-centric'

> > perspective on a

> > > creation which is in fact far wider and more complex than we

> could ever

> > hope to

> > > grasp, and that we, were we just a little more humble, would

> realise we

> > are only a

> > > tiny part of.

> > >

> > > Talk of attempting to convert lions to veganism and what have you

> is yet

> > again

> > > promoting the idea that peoplekind know best about how natural

> systems and

> > > ecologies 'should' work.

> > >

> > > Cheers

> > >

> > > Graham Burnett

> > > www.landandliberty.co.uk

> > > Now available-

> > > 'Permaculture A Beginner's Guide'

> > > also

> > > tee shirts- 'Permaculture Manadala'

> > > &

> > > 'Land Is Liberty- Plant A Seed Today...'

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > To send an email to -

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Fraggle

 

I'm sorry to hear that :-)

 

Jo

 

>

> i find most people even dirtier and smellier!

>

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I need to get more Karma perfume as I'm running out I always get good comments when I wear it too

 

-

Janey

Saturday, March 02, 2002 12:37 PM

Re: Re: commodities or anthropomorphised? Re: Digest Number 251

 

 

but I get good comments about it. This is all thanks to Angie and her recommendation for Lush (and Karma!!!)

 

Janey

x

 

I ask this because one of the forms the workplace harassment took when I was being bullied in nursing was someone telling me I was smelly - this was impossible as I was always bathing. I reckon I just smelled different for not eating animals!

 

 

Could this have been why I was singled out as smelly?

I very rarely used perfume or deodorant though, because if you are clean that should not be needed.

I think most people can't cope with people smelling normal!

 

LesleyTo send an email to -