Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Hi Simon > Do Pagans believe that nature has some sort of conscience ,if so > which came first physical nature then conscience or vice- verse? Again, it depends on the person you talk to. Some see nature as the Goddess. I can only really give my own views here - that the physical world has been born out of a more ephemeral divinity. But I don't see this divinity as seperated from nature, which is where I differ from monotheistic religions. So divinity existed before it became physical IMHO! > How do Paganism explain, what went wrong with humans to be as we are regarding meat-eating, This makes an assumption that humasn were at some time perfect. I have never heard a Pagan make this assumption. > Sometime in the past humans must have fallen out with each -other, and where ever the fruit-trees > and edible- plants were some humans must have found themselves with out access to the food,for what ever reason, It depends on the area you live in. In Britain, for instance, it would be virtually impossible to be vegan if it were not for international trade - the same is true for most places. > The result being the tragic state we have today regarding the mass killing of humans and animals My personal view is that it is natural for all animals (including humans) to feel a spiritual connection with each other (and with the divine) - it is the loss of this connection which makes meat-eating anything other than disgusting to the majority of people. I see this seperation being caused by the development of organised religion which pre-dates historical record. Egyptian & Sumerian religion were already well developed when our knowledge of them starts. All orgnaised religions remove a direct connection to divinity in some way or another - even in religions like Buddhism and Hare Krishna, which are much more personal, there is a reliance on the words of a "great teacher". BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Hi Graham > I thought that Xmas was a christian co-option of Winter Solstice > (Dec 21) but moved along a couple of days- is that different > to 'Yule'? Virtually every culture have had some sort of mid-winter celebration. The specific celebration that Christmas is based on is the celebration of the birth of Sol Invictus (the Sun God), which took place on 25 December in 4th century Rome. Yule is an ancient Celtic festival which is similar. The Solstice is one specific moment when the sun reaches it's southern most point (and celebrated on the day that happens), whereas Yule is generally celebrated as the day when the light starts to return - there are usually three days when the length of sunlight minutes is the same, and (usually) December 23rd / 24th in the UK is when the actual " return " of the light is seen to occur. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Hi Simon > Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the > pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw > as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the > sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: > forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be > at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of such quality before > the Gospels came into being, But let's not forget the downside to the bible - there are rules for selling your daughter into slavery, for the best way to slaughter the fatted calf as an offering to God and scatter the blood, for how to punish people who shave or wear garments of mixed fabrics, for how long after menstruation women should be shunned and kept out of the camp, etc. etc. I don't know of many ancient writings which give such Draconian rules as these. Of course, society's morality gradually changes over time. In the years before Christianity, human sacrifice was a fairly commonly accepted theme - but it was banned in civilised society almost 100 years before Jesus would have been born (by an act of the Roman Senate in 96 BCE). And how do you reconcile "Love thy neighbour" whith "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"? Where can you find teachings of such quality? How about Buddhism? How about the Baghavad Gita? Having said that, I agree there are some very good teachings in the Bible - it's just a shame that the modern English version of the Bible was created for political reasons, and thereby chopped out most of the more interesting books because they didn't match with the political cause! BB Peter ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Simon I cannot really comment much on human sacrifice. I think in the past human life was held in less respect than it is now. Of course, the Christian Church has done it's share of sacrifice, so I don't think there is much difference there. I think forgiveness and love come naturally to many people. It must have always been the same. I think that if you do not find it in yourself to love and forgive then you will not do so just because the Bible tells you to. I suppose that is where the fear of hell comes in. I am happy that you find comfort and meaning in the Bible, but I do remember that it made me feel dirty and second-class. Since becoming Pagan I have found that most Pagan women felt the same from their Christian teachings, and are now happy to feel equally important. Jo >>>Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of >>>such quality before the Gospels came into being ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 Simon Pagans hold many and varied beliefs. Most believe in a general Earth energy of which we are part, and many believe in either the Lord and Lady or pantheons of Gods/Godesses. I am sure some must believe in a conciousness. As for your other question, I really don't know why humans do what they do. BBJo >>>Do Pagans believe that nature has some sort of conscience ,if so, which came first physical nature then conscience or vice- verse? or have they existed together through out time trying to improve itself as one, How do Paganism explain, what went wrong with humans to be as we are regarding meat-eating, Sometime in the past humans must have fallen out with each -other, and where ever the fruit-trees and edible- plants were some humans must have found themselves with out access to the food,for what ever reason, whether they just wandered off and got lost or resorted to eating animals out of desperation or whether some did fall out with each -other and were forced to eat animals,I can except that we have come into existences some how ; that we did do something wrong in the past; The result being the tragic state we have today regarding the mass killing of humans and animals, and I except that who ever wrote( Genesis 1 up until when Adam & eve were oust out of the Garden having to wear animal skin,) had to have known what a lot of Vegans( for the most part are still proclaiming today, the idea that killing is wrong and if people except that, there would be a kind of garden of Eden on earth! It's an ideal that I would image any >>>right thinking person would want ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 In a message dated 3/3/02 4:56:23 AM Pacific Standard Time, simonpjones writes: << Do Pagans believe that nature has some sort of conscience ,if so, which came first physical nature then conscience or vice- verse? or have they existed together through out time trying to improve itself as one, How do Paganism explain, what went wrong with humans to be as we are regarding meat-eating, Sometime in the past humans must have fallen out with each -other, and where ever the fruit-trees and edible- plants were some humans must have >> ok...this is getting mighty existencial (yes, i know its spelled wrong...i'm a bit tipsy) fer me Humans evolved eating fruits, nuts, leaves the occasional bugs, and lizard... thats why we crave so much fat and such.....its in our genetic blueprint....we rarely if ever ate meat.....meat does give a quick boost of fat and what all.....its just in the last who knows how many years, humankind has been moving more and more toward a meat central diet....it deadens a craving in our lil simian brains......but, doesn't mean we are suppose to eat it either....kids crave sugar, doesn't mean all that processed sugar is good fer us paganism, christianity, hinduism, et al has not a whole lot to do with it *passes out* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 In a message dated 3/3/02 5:31:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, grahamburnett writes: << I thought that Xmas was a christian co-option of Winter Solstice (Dec 21) but moved along a couple of days- is that different to 'Yule'? Graham >> about the same thing...yule is the northern european celebration...norse .... ancient societies had special holidays all around the solstice..be it yule, saturnalia, juvenalia, mithra, kwanzaa or wot have you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 No point in having gospels if no one takes any notice. Christians don't care about animal suffering in most cases. And don't seem tocare about human suffering either hence wars etc - Simon pJones Monday, March 04, 2002 9:40 AM Paganism be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of such quality before the Gospels came into being, To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 3, 2002 Report Share Posted March 3, 2002 If christianity makes women feel second class/dirty then it is not good enough for me . It treated my grand mother with disrespect by not allowing her to go to church till so many days after the birth of her children . I can't forgive the church for treating my Gran like that so I treat the church with the same disrespect . I use the church when it suits me but mostly avoid it - Jo Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:59 PM Re: Paganism Simon I am happy that you find comfort and meaning in the Bible, but I do remember that it made me feel dirty and second-class. Since becoming Pagan I have found that most Pagan women felt the same from their Christian teachings, and are now happy to feel equally important. Jo >>>Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of >>>such quality before the Gospels came into being ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 , " Angie Wright " <angiewright@n...> wrote: > If christianity makes women feel second class/dirty then it is not good enough for me . It treated my grand mother with disrespect by not allowing her to go to church till so many days after the birth of her children . I can't forgive the church for treating my Gran like that so I treat the church with the same disrespect . I use the church when it suits me but mostly avoid it > > Angie > > > - > Jo > > Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:59 PM > Re: Paganism > > > Simon > > I am happy that you find comfort and meaning in the Bible, but I do remember that it made me feel dirty and second-class. Since becoming Pagan I have found that most Pagan women felt the same from their Christian teachings, and are now happy to feel equally important. > > Jo > > >>>Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of >>>such quality before the Gospels came into being > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of such quality before the Gospels came into being, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 somehow i see a bit of confusion here...paganism isn't a blanket religion..paganism covers a whole lot of ground, from wiccans to eris concordians,...paganism doesn't have one dogma, belief system, rite, etc...it is just a bunch of beliefs lumped under one name by christians and " neo pagans " have taken it as a badge of honor.... pagan was a roman term that use to basically mean " someone from the country " ...... peter has it right cheers fraggle " Peter " <Snowbow wrote: >Hi Simon > >> Do Pagans believe that nature has some sort of conscience ,if so >> which came first physical nature then conscience or vice- verse? > >Again, it depends on the person you talk to. Some see nature as the Goddess. I can only really give my own views here - that the physical world has been born out of a more ephemeral divinity. But I don't see this divinity as seperated from nature, which is where I differ from monotheistic religions. So divinity existed before it became physical IMHO! > >> How do Paganism explain, what went wrong with humans to be as we are regarding meat-eating, > >This makes an assumption that humasn were at some time perfect. I have never heard a Pagan make this assumption. > >> Sometime in the past humans must have fallen out with each -other, and where ever the fruit-trees >> and edible- plants were some humans must have found themselves with out access to the food,for what ever reason, > >It depends on the area you live in. In Britain, for instance, it would be virtually impossible to be vegan if it were not for international trade - the same is true for most places. > >> The result being the tragic state we have today regarding the mass killing of humans and animals > >My personal view is that it is natural for all animals (including humans) to feel a spiritual connection with each other (and with the divine) - it is the loss of this connection which makes meat-eating anything other than disgusting to the majority of people. I see this seperation being caused by the development of organised religion which pre-dates historical record. Egyptian & Sumerian religion were already well developed when our knowledge of them starts. All orgnaised religions remove a direct connection to divinity in some way or another - even in religions like Buddhism and Hare Krishna, which are much more personal, there is a reliance on the words of a " great teacher " . > >BB >Peter > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2002 Report Share Posted March 4, 2002 It took long enough for the Church to say that women could be priests, and even now there are many people in the church against it! Why would men have a monopoly on spirituality I ask. Jo If christianity makes women feel second class/dirty then it is not good enough for me . It treated my grand mother with disrespect by not allowing her to go to church till so many days after the birth of her children . I can't forgive the church for treating my Gran like that so I treat the church with the same disrespect . I use the church when it suits me but mostly avoid it - Jo Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:59 PM Re: Paganism Simon I am happy that you find comfort and meaning in the Bible, but I do remember that it made me feel dirty and second-class. Since becoming Pagan I have found that most Pagan women felt the same from their Christian teachings, and are now happy to feel equally important. Jo >>>Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of >>>such quality before the Gospels came into being ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2002 Report Share Posted March 5, 2002 If all women refused to attend church then they would lose money . They would soon change their mind then . Women are daft accepting it . One of the reasons I don't bother with church is because it doesn't (or didn't ) value my sex - Jo Monday, March 04, 2002 6:50 PM Re: Paganism It took long enough for the Church to say that women could be priests, and even now there are many people in the church against it! Why would men have a monopoly on spirituality I ask. Jo If christianity makes women feel second class/dirty then it is not good enough for me . It treated my grand mother with disrespect by not allowing her to go to church till so many days after the birth of her children . I can't forgive the church for treating my Gran like that so I treat the church with the same disrespect . I use the church when it suits me but mostly avoid it - Jo Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:59 PM Re: Paganism Simon I am happy that you find comfort and meaning in the Bible, but I do remember that it made me feel dirty and second-class. Since becoming Pagan I have found that most Pagan women felt the same from their Christian teachings, and are now happy to feel equally important. Jo >>>Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of >>>such quality before the Gospels came into being ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02To send an email to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 5, 2002 Report Share Posted March 5, 2002 Heck, it took the Church long enough to say that women could have *souls* ... several hundred years, in fact. ----- It took long enough for the Church to say that women could be priests, and even now there are many people in the church against it! Why would men have a monopoly on spirituality I ask. Jo -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Animals don't apparently so presumably I don't . (Similar enough to experiment on) If my animals aren't good enough for heaven then I'm not interested either Me and my animals are like a union one out -all out !!! - " Dr Ian McDonald " <ian Tuesday, March 05, 2002 11:30 PM Re: Paganism > Heck, it took the Church long enough to say that women could have > *souls* ... several hundred years, in fact. > > ----- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 sure it does angie...it see's you as a baby machine to produce more little churchlings..and a target for rage from silly males... eve and the first sin and all that ack,...my, have we flown off topic umm..hi! i'm eating only fruit for 3 or 4 days *pulls conversation back to vegan type thingees* fraggle " Angie Wright " <angiewright wrote: >If all women refused to attend church then they would lose money . They would soon change their mind then . Women are daft accepting it . > One of the reasons I don't bother with church is because it doesn't (or didn't ) value my sex > >Angie > - > Jo > > Monday, March 04, 2002 6:50 PM > Re: Paganism > > > It took long enough for the Church to say that women could be priests, and even now there are many people in the church against it! Why would men have a monopoly on spirituality I ask. > > Jo > > > If christianity makes women feel second class/dirty then it is not good enough for me . It treated my grand mother with disrespect by not allowing her to go to church till so many days after the birth of her children . I can't forgive the church for treating my Gran like that so I treat the church with the same disrespect . I use the church when it suits me but mostly avoid it > > Angie > > > - > Jo > > Sunday, March 03, 2002 4:59 PM > Re: Paganism > > > Simon > > I am happy that you find comfort and meaning in the Bible, but I do remember that it made me feel dirty and second-class. Since becoming Pagan I have found that most Pagan women felt the same from their Christian teachings, and are now happy to feel equally important. > > Jo > > >>>Admittedly the catholic church made a grave error when it changed the Sabbath day from Saturday to the Sunday, The day the pagans worshipped the sun, then bringing in statues and idols into Christianity in order to convert the pagans into what they saw as Christianity,remembering that before Jesus the priests and sun worshippers use to to kill people and offer them to the sungod,l can say from reading the quotes of Jesus and to my knowledge there has been no talk of in human evolution of: forgiveness or ;love your neighbour as yourself ,and so on , if people reject these teachings ,your rejecting a lot of what has to be at least helpful for us and acknowledge they are good teachings,Where else can you find such teachings of >>>such quality before the Gospels came into being > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 > > > To send an email to - > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Hi Ian > Heck, it took the Church long enough to say that women could have > *souls* ... several hundred years, in fact. Very true - earlier this century wasn't it? And it was only in the 1980s that they accepted that the moon wasn't perfectly spherical! They might work out that animals have souls sometime in the next couple of centuries! BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 Hi Fraggle > ack,...my, have we flown off topic Ummm - no! There is no " on topic " on this list - it's meant for chat about anything :-) BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 > Animals don't apparently so presumably I don't . (Similar enough to > experiment on) > If my animals aren't good enough for heaven then I'm not interested either > Me and my animals are like a union one out -all out !!! LOL Angie. To think some people still think animals aren't sentient beings! Jo --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 2002 Report Share Posted March 6, 2002 If all women refused to attend church then they would lose money . They would soon change their mind then . Women are daft accepting it . One of the reasons I don't bother with church is because it doesn't (or didn't ) value my sex Yes, I don't know why they go - they give away their power. Jo ---Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Peter wrote: > > Hi Ian > > > Heck, it took the Church long enough to say that women could have > > *souls* ... several hundred years, in fact. > > Very true - earlier this century wasn't it? I think we would have noticed if they'd changed their mind on that within the last fifteen months! No, think it was in the sixth or seventh century. > And it was only in the 1980s > that they accepted that the moon wasn't perfectly spherical! They might work > out that animals have souls sometime in the next couple of centuries! > > BB > Peter > -- Ian McDonald http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 2002 Report Share Posted March 7, 2002 Hi Ian > > > Heck, it took the Church long enough to say that women could have > > > *souls* ... several hundred years, in fact. > > Very true - earlier this century wasn't it? > I think we would have noticed if they'd changed their mind on that > within the last fifteen months! OK - I momentarily forgot that we're now in the 21st century. What I should have said was the 20th century, but certainly not as early as the 7th century. BB Peter --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.324 / Virus Database: 181 - Release 14/02/02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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